WafflePod #1: The Rolex System and the $1000 Backlash

Right, so sitting here with Toby Davis. Now, before we start this, just as an explainer for people, Toby you live in Canada, you... is it alright to talk about what you were, who you were working with before, or is that? Yeah, I think they're okay with it. I think he's public domain, so yeah, I don't know if, yeah, there's a few people that I can't, but I don't think I've mentioned that, or if I have done, I've just been like, don't mention it. Alright, so why don't we do this? Why don't we, why don't we, so, so, what's happening is that Toby is editing for me. I've got two Davises, right? I've got my friend Stuart Davis... Funnily enough, my uncle is called Stuart as well. I have an uncle Stuart. Stuart Davis, yeah. But he's not him, he's not him, he's another one. No, that was just going to freak me out then, because I couldn't remember who put us in touch, which is another thing, but so Stuart Davis edits my podcast for free, which I'm just eternally grateful for, and he's a beautiful guy, and then you do this at the moment, and you're helping me edit, so basically we can kind of put stuff out, and then we, you know, found out that we get on very well, and so why don't we start doing stuff together, which is great, and this is one of those things, so it's just going to be us just chatting about, kind of news-ish, but what's been going on, whether it's the channel, stuff we've noticed in Magic, or maybe out of Magic, but also, why don't you just let me know, because probably stuff I don't know, but who are you working with before, and you're a little sort of potted history of you, who is Toby Davis? Who is he? What does Google say? Don't Google it. Let's have a look. So yeah, most people have probably seen my work, but they don't probably know it was me, so like, I think Dan is probably the main person, so Dan Madison was probably the main person that I'm probably known for, with most things, either appearing in stuff, or working behind the scenes, and a lot like camera stuff, or projects, something like that, just because we used to live so close, and it kind of worked out there, and then who else? Vanishing Inc, done quite a bit before, just certain project masterclasses, stuff like that, whether that be the odd bit of filming, but quite a lot of editing, now that I've been over here, since that, and then more recently, Jack Rhodes, we've just started doing some stuff with him, and yeah, so I think they're kind of main ones, we've done like Lee Thompson, Matt Wright, Tom Peterson, yeah, then we did like some Murphy stuff, did a bit with Illusionists, like yeah, all sorts of stuff, so it was kind of one of them where, kind of, do a lot of video stuff, and magic bits, and whatever people need, really, so, you work towards it, and do something. I feel very grateful. Who put us in touch? I can't remember who. Antony. Antony? Antony Heaton. You were at Sheffield, judging competition together, weren't you? That's it, it's one of those awful ADHD things, where I remember the conversation, and just the other day I was going, it's just gone, who was it? And yeah, so thank you, we're too grateful. So yeah, so here we are, and we've been having these conversations kind of off, almost like podcasty conversations, we're like, we should start recording this. We're sending off voice notes to each other. I know, I know. And they're always so long, and it's like, it could just be, you know, it's three minutes, and I'm like, that could have been ten seconds, could have been a message, a sentence. It's so funny, isn't it? I'm like, what are you doing? I'm like, hang on, just listening to another one. So we, well the first thing, I suppose, is tell people to go to stevefalter.com forward slash newsletter. Have you got anything where you want people to go? We haven't talked about that, have we? Just Instagram, probably. Tobii underscore underscore Davis, D-A-V-I-S. And that's probably it, really. I have a website, if people want to check that out. I mean, there's not a lot on there, it hasn't been updated in a while. I am going to get around to it, but like anything, when is he going to get around to it? Look, websites and this is a different subject. Don't go, both of us are going to be in a nightmare staying on subject. But the thing with websites and all that stuff now, I think, is becoming slightly less important, obviously you need it, than having footage and being able to show what you can do. I think with AI now, people know they can bang up a website. Anybody can do anything without actually doing it. And I think you can look at your Instagram as a portfolio. That's mostly what I have that one and then have a different one as well for that. Or what I'll do is I have just basically just YouTube and all the videos are on there and then if somebody reaches out to me, I'll build a custom playlist to what I think shows what I can do for them, as best with what I've got really, rather than just sticking all the videos there and nobody knows where to click anything. So yeah, for me, that's what's been working so far. Brilliant. And so it's Toby underscore underscore Davis with an IES. And I think that the new... I'll put it on screen now. Yeah, well, there's another job for you to do. Since I'll be editing this, there we go. Why not? Just add it onto the list. The ever-growing list. But the newsletter, the important thing about that is people know it's not spam. It's just that I want to, at some point, not rely on Facebook algorithms for people to find the stuff we do. That's it. And if we ever sell anything, imagine that. If we ever make any money, Toby, we could actually tell people... That must be like having money. Imagine that. So talk about the big thing this week for me, obviously, and for us, was the Rolex system and talking to Shane, which I felt very grateful for that. And, you know, there was some controversy about that. And we can't talk about, as it should be, the methods, because that's kind of what he's selling. But there was a load of kickback from it. And we know why. And I want to question this in a minute, but I'm seeing this from the perspective of someone that may have issues. It's devil's advocacy, it's not my opinion, really. But it was kind of like, hang on a minute, $1,000 for a PDF was one of the things. The other thing was he's charging me 40 quid or whatever to show me the thing at Blackpool. And I think there was also a feeling of he wasn't, as he says in his own words, it's not like everybody knew who he was. He wasn't like a massive name. He is in some respects. We can talk about that. But you also didn't know even like the trailer or something. There wasn't like a proper performance or a trailer or anything of it as well either. Yeah. Yeah, I think that was a massive thing that set people off. It set people off, didn't it? So your initial, should we forget about the $1,000, the controversy and all that and just go, what did you think? We have to talk around this, of the effect. So we were kindly provided it because we were talking about it. And what did you think of it? Taking away the price and all that. Yeah, I think I can see why, to be fair, it did set a few people off to start off with, I think. I mean, it's got its ups and downs, but I don't think it's abnormal to charge that price in this day and age. I mean, you know, books come out with a single trick or limited edition books and they're 300 quid, 150, 500, whatever. So I think it's just the fact, I mean, we don't know who he, you don't really know who he is in terms of a name. So I don't think that helped. And then, although it did have good names associated to it, like Weber and everything like that. And Weber writes the intro of the book, an introduction, which is nice and gives you good high praise. I think it's one of them, like, you know, Jerome Finley was charging $1,000 for PDF and stuff, but he had a name, he had a bit more of a reputation from it. I do think it would have been probably a bit different if this had come out as a book. Like, if this had come out as a physical copy of a book for a trick, do you think magicians would have still reacted the same way because it's a physical product? Yeah, well, so there's a lot there, isn't there? So first of all, I think some people, like myself, because I came into magic through magic, I wasn't involved in that mentalism world. But I remember my friend, Bob Pierce, Bob Percy, rest in peace, he used to tell me about mentalism. He used to teach me Clown, right? And that sounds like a sentence that needs qualifying, doesn't it? I was at circus school for two years in 1996. We used to get in these little cars that backfired and throw custard tarts at each other. Custard pies, yeah, custard tarts. Anyway, so he would tell me about mentalism. I started getting into magic. He was getting into mentalism. And he would tell me about these books that were really expensive and these PDFs. They weren't PDFs then, they were mostly books. And I'd be like, really? And he said, yeah, I've got a few. And we're talking back in the late 90s that he was paying 100 quid, 200 quid. So that now, you know, now... So you were talking about your own... So is there a kind of tradition of this? Yeah, so from what I remember, like, I remember back in the day, like, I bought some PDFs and stuff and you had to download this software to view it. It wasn't like... It didn't come down to just a PDF. And it was this essentially like a copyrighted software so it stopped you from screenshotting it. There'd be watermarks on the screen and stuff. And this was before, like, computers are a little bit more... Better with software. Like, you'd probably get around that these days. Not that you should. But I think the thing is it's... In this day and age now, we kind of reflect on PDFs as just a throwaway item, isn't it? It's like, download. It's just a $10 download. It's just a $20. So I think by putting it as a PDF, that's what might have affected it. Like, if it was a physical... I mean, if it did come as a printed book, I think it'd be very short. It'd be more of a pamphlet than a book. That's the only thing. Because it's not long. No. But I don't think it needs to be. I mean, like, when we get into it, like, what's covered inside of it, I think it goes into more than enough of what's in there. There's maybe one or two little bits. But yeah, for the most part, I think it covers it really well. And you can tell it's been done and performed by somebody that has done this day in, day out. And it gives you fallbacks. It gives you outs. It gives you what happens if this happens, and stuff like that. Which I think is really good. Because then it's not just something like that. Because anybody can write a PDF and just stick it on the internet. Yeah. But here's the thing in it. So your question about if it was a book... So we've got kind of... And I think there will be people like me that aren't used to seeing that thing, of things being that expensive. The fact it was at Blackpool is interesting because you're surrounded by things that are expensive, but because they're physical products, you're selling physical products at Blackpool, you're not getting that thing of a thousand quid book. Yes. And that's kind of more of an underground thing, right? And also, it's funny. If it's a physical book, like you said, it's going to be a small one. And it would arguably seem more justified in price. And that thing of $1,000 for a PDF, you're not paying. PDF, it's like that thing of art, that much. It's like saying... And I know it's not... I'm not comparing it to a painting, by the way. But metaphorically, I suppose it's like saying, you know, all that money for a bit of cloth. Yeah, I think it comes with that whole branding thing, doesn't it? Yeah, you don't think about all that. At the end of the day, a PDF still takes some process before it goes to print. But I think it's one of them that you've just got something physical in your hand. It'd reduce the shareability that people probably associate with PDFs, the cheapness of it, because you've got to read it on a device. There's just something nice about having the physical quality of having a product in hand. Another thing that magicians are probably like is to know that they can resell it. If they get an actual physical copy of a book, PDF, once you pay for that, you can't resell it or any of that. So I think there's, yeah, there's a few pros and cons to each of it. And just because it's like essentially a single trick or a single method or something. I mean, as I was explaining to you before, like train tracking, that was I think like 150 quid when that came out. They were reselling for twice that, three times that. And that's just a one method, one trick routine or something. But I think it's the same as this, that it's a tool box, you can apply it to anything that you want after that, which I think is nice. Yeah, and I think the whole thing about, I think we, and I'm playing devil's advocate, I'm trying to, I'm not justifying it because I'm on anybody's side. My opinion is that, well, we'll get into my opinion in a minute, because I think it's okay to share that. But just that thing of you're not buying a PDF in the way that when you buy a book, you're not buying paper. In the way when you buy an MP3, you're not buying, you're buying what's on it, right? Yeah, you're buying the contents. You're buying the ideas, you're buying, that's what people are sharing. So I don't, my opinion is I never would save that much for a PDF book, but I would, because it's a lot, right? Before I knew anything about it, I did think, 700 quid, which is $1,000, for a PDF, of course they did. But then the thought is, well, no, okay, well, let's see what's on it first. Because if it's, let's say goes an extreme, let's say if it's someone's, you know, it's Copperfield selling a secret to a method that nobody else knew, that changes the game of magic, and I'm doing this hypothetically, because I don't think it is that, but even if it is that, that's what you're buying, right? You're not, then it's not just a PDF. I think it's the same, like, you know, look at Scott Alexander, he used to sell all his stuff, like, as like full workable routines, scripting, everything, props, like you got it all, tracks to some stuff and everything. And I think it's kind of just the same thing, like this guy, just because they did it on a video and you needed props for it all, like for this, you are still getting somebody's act, you're getting a workable scripted thing that somebody's got in there, it's like, yeah. And I think that's why it can justify that price. Because of what it is, you know, it's a workable bit. It's a staple piece in the show. And so again, going for the sake of balance, you've got the other thing, which I do understand. I'm just trying to think what, if I was at Blackpool and I didn't know anything, someone said, there's a place charging 40 quid to show you the thing. Do you know how many Greg sausage rolls that is? That's like, yeah, I'd rather go there and see that and have more entertainment. Straight away, that totally, you've made a joke then, but my default would always be like, that's a grand. How many, whatever it is, can I buy with it? Yeah. That's it. That's like, yeah. So much. It's nearly like one deck of luxury cars these days. Yeah. It's, I think that is, that was a big problem with it. Because, you're not seeing a performance. You're not, there was a lot of cryptic about what you're buying. At least with a product, you kind of can read a display of kind of like what it is. Do you know what I mean? You know what you're getting. This card is going to jump to the top. Whereas this was so open and you'd never see a video. Nobody was really talking about how you get from point A to point B or what you're doing. It was just very much kind of like a statement that was very broad of, you can reveal anything without asking them questions, without them speaking at all. No electronics. It sounded like real mind reading. Do you know what I mean? It was the closest thing to the perfect thing. And you know, it's not going to be that because we're magicians. you know, it's just dental gum and ******* glue in it. Right. Half the time. Yeah. Paper clip, paper clip and a lasso band. Yeah. But that was, but that again, going back to, and I think that there is a sort of, before all the beautiful packaging that magic got, it was very normal. And again, I'm not comparing the two things because we're not talking most of the time about a grand, but it was very normal. You expected that when you bought a thing physically, it was going to look incredibly disappointing. Yeah. That was so, so the norm that you kind of bypass that very quickly. I know it's going to do something good because I've seen the trick. I've seen what it does, which again, you haven't in this situation. So there's that. And I'm trying to put myself in the mind of someone. Had I not spoken to Shay or had I known nothing about him, or had I not spoken to Mustafa, who's the actual person that said, no, it's pretty, you know, you should check it out. Mustafa Bajuli. Ah, I forgot the pronunciation. From illusionary and glyphs and all that. Had I not known any of that stuff and just heard about it, to be totally honest, I thought, who's this arrogant prick, you know, trying to get me to spending 50. And now I don't think that at all, which I think, I think it could have been marketed better. I think that's probably the biggest thing of like, there could have been some kind of a very edited performance, but it could have been explained at the beginning, why it was so edited, but we could have seen at least one side of it, or a little bit of the cut out of the conversation, you know, not the full jigsaw, but little bits of it, which would have helped massively. I think from seeing that, I get the whole, why, why you wanted to hide it. You know, we know why, because you can not backtrack the method, but, well, we can say it's an anagram, isn't it? And I think if you watch, yeah. So if you watch any person performing an anagram, you know, you're going to be able to work out how it all works. Yeah. So I can see why, because, you know, you're charging a thousand dollars for this, so you want to protect it for everybody that's made their investment. Yeah. And he, and he performed the very rudimentary version of it. And I think that's the, that's the thing about this. And I was really glad when you came back to me, because we had no reason to be dishonest. This was a private conversation. This isn't, but this was. And actually, potentially this could be because we could edit this, but I don't want to edit this bit. But the private conversation of, you left me a voice message, you go, right, I've read it. And I was like, right. And you went, I really like it. And I was like, good. And you said, I'm glad you said that, because you're a performer. And that's what we didn't say at the beginning. You are a performer, you do comedy club, you've been performing for a long time. And you saw, the potential. And I think, as with all good mentalism, again, take the price out of it, and all the controversy at the moment. If you had never seen Acidus, and you read that, you go, let's say you've never seen a peak, right? You've never seen a peak, and you look at it, and I remember feeling this, and going, what? I just look at it, when they're not looking. What? And you've said that this is the most powerful thing in the little intro, and now you say, what are you doing? You look down, and you're, you're getting to right in the corner. Do you know what I mean? It all sounds rubbish. And then when you do it, you go, ****. That's disrespectful. I have a card to shoe routine. I don't know if we spoke about this, have I told you about it? Probably not. I don't know. So I have a card to shoe routine, I'll tell you more about it later on. But, Lee Thompson, really good friend, we did a gig, not last year, year before, whenever it was. And he seen me do this card to shoe routine, and he's like, I like that. And then he saw me do it regularly at this gig, just all the time, in and out in these shoes. And he's like, you need to write that up. And I'm the exact same. I'm like, yeah, but when you know the method, which he knows the method, and he's like, yeah, but there's so much more to it than that. And I'm like, is there though? And that's just why I never have, because I just feel like, it's the same thing. If you just get it, you go, oh, is that all it is? But, I think of this, yeah, there is more to it, especially when you look at it in the context of what the Rolex system is, what you can do with that. You know, I think Ben Earl's stuff is a big example of this. You know, he'll take a top change, and, it's so much more than just a top change, because you're not just buying the top change, you're buying everything that's to do with it, and how it all works, and the whole performance of it, the little nuances that you've got from a performer that's worked it, it's the same with this. As you say, the basic version, you can reveal some stuff, but, as we were sending voice notes back and forth, you can do it with this, and you can do it with that, and, you know, combine it with another routine, and you've got this, and, yeah, it just opens up into a bigger piece, and you show like a good staple that you could get a solid, you know, in the right hands. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody just do this with a few extras, and it'd be a 45 minute set. Yeah, and that's it, and I think that what this is, and again, it could be marketing, but part of me does think, what this is, is that it's a tool that can be developed, and a skill that can be learned, but when you do read it, and he even says this, he says that, people that see the basic version think it's a cool thing, and then later they come back to me and go, oh, you could do this, and I thought, is that hype? Well, it doesn't have to be, because that's in the PDF that I've potentially already bought for that money. I think there's always going to be, anybody that pays that money, straight away, has to know, that the criteria for that, is, it's a professional performance tool, right, so if you're doing shows, constantly, then it's not, I'm not on about a hobbyist here, and I am a hobbyist, most of the time with Magic, so if I'm at Blackpool, I'm not performing, I'm doing corporate, for a couple of grand, minimum of pop, or whatever like that, and I'm just, then, why, would I consider, something that I have been told, is a professional performance thing, and by the way, I'm not saying anybody's done this, this is just in my, so that's that, then you've got the thing of, the, he's charging this much, that much, and I would say, but nobody's making anybody, pay for it, nobody's making you, spend the $50 to see it, I wouldn't dream of spending $50 to see it, because if I didn't know what it was, so I think of it as an interesting conversation, it's in the pub, and sort of going, have you seen, you know that's one thing, but actually starting to become outraged online, I think it's a good discussion online, I think jokingly outraged, but to actually be, be, angry, like properly angry, I just partly think, well isn't that what makes it all interesting, and isn't, nobody had to buy anything, so. Yeah, and I think also just, people were jumping on and, talking about it, when, they didn't even know, what it was like, they'd not seen the performance, or they were just hearing like, second hand from, what, it's just Chinese whispers going down and down, and it's like yeah that's it, that's why we're not, getting it and then, you know by the time the hundredth person's commented, it's completely different from what you're actually hearing. And I felt when I talked to him that, part of me was expecting, a kind of justification which is what it was, but I wasn't expecting to feel so, that it was so, honest, not that I would expect him to be dishonest, but it really, I really felt that he, as a human being he was hurt, even though he said he is thick skinned, and you know, he felt hurt, and, you can tell he was, I don't mean he was whining, I don't think he was, you know, saying oh poor me and being a victim, I think he was saying he was, you know it hurt him, he put his heart and soul into it, which I do believe he did, you know, and you might go, it's a PDF that, is only this many pages with big writing, I'm not about that, I'm all about the actual thing, and, there, weirdly enough there is a kind of honesty about, charging that much, knowing that it's going to piss people off, knowing that there's going to be a load of people, that aren't going to be happy, but it's mattering enough to you to still do it, and I think he, even though he did say he thought it would, he thought people would love it, and, thought people would just be really excited about it, which I kind of was, the idea, but I don't think that was arrogance, I think that's just because he really, he really loves it, and I think that the, the backlash has kind of, even though he's taken it quite well in one way, he hasn't kind of, stepped in, I don't think, and kind of, kicked off about it. jumped on the bandwagon and tried to, defend every comment, I think like, as I said, you know, if somebody else had put this out, the exact same thing if it had had like, Pete Turner's name on it for example, nobody would have said anything, we wouldn't be in this situation, I don't think so, and I think, it's partly because we don't know who he is, really, and then as I say the marketing as well, but I think that's just a massive, if you, if you can't see the product, then you need something else to, get me invested into it, and, that's like a name, you know what I mean like, you'd buy a mystery box from Rolex, for example, you know, just because, you know, the brand's reputable or something like that, and you know, oh well, I'm going to get a good quality watch or whatever, and everything like that, whereas, you know, if somebody's selling one on the street, it's a new mystery box, but you don't know who he is, you know, you're not going to pay that money, and I think that's the same thing. It's the mystery box, it's the magic mystery box. It's because I was looking at mystery boxes the other day. I've never really understood that thing. Magic shops do it, don't they? Well, I kind of do understand it, but part of me thinks, Just the way I'm getting rid of shite, isn't it? We've got a lot of stock, let's get rid of all this. So, it's like, I'm going to spend 20 quid on, a trick that I know I'm going to like, because I want it, or, I'll tell you what, I'll get that bag of shite I don't know. Yeah. I mean, you do, you're too good to go all the time. Yeah. Oh, I do love a too good to go, as you know. I'm loathe to talk about it, because people, I want to keep the numbers down. That's what we want, is the sponsorships. Come on, that's what we need. Too good to go. Forget the money. Sponsorships, too good to go. I'll tell you later about the too good to go I got yesterday. I went for a delivery option. I got some, anyway, come down there. I knew this podcast didn't go that way. Yeah, it's very, it's quite good. So we've got, so what I don't want, what I don't want people to do is to, it's almost sounds like we are, we've got like an affiliate thing. We're not trying to sell the thing here. All right. We, we, this is totally honest opinion. However, I do get it. I do, I'm not saying everybody should be on board with it. I think the conversation is very interesting, and, people have got within their rights to go, what the ****? How, I would like people to stop commenting on things. They don't know, ******* anything about. I know. It's just magicians though, isn't it? Just in general. No, it happens everywhere. It honestly happens. We like to do this, like, telling me, oh, I know, there's a mod on this group. That's a right thing. Oh, anyway. But, but, but it's, it's not when I put the podcast out, I put the podcast out, and all I did was let, let, let Shay speak, and, I thought he, he was very eloquent. I thought he, he had a, he was, I liked him, not saying everybody should, and that's fine. But people, have commented, clearly not listening to it. Not many people, by the way. I mean, it's pretty much, it's been totally fine. But, you know, I've had things like, oh, someone said something like, what do we need a podcast to sell a product? And I'm like, well, no we don't, and that's not, that's nothing to do with what this is. So, so you kind of, and there was quite a long post, and I thought, if you're taking the time to write the podcast, why don't you, just go and listen to it on double speed? And you'd have done that in the same time. I'm not angry about it, and I wasn't angry. But, what the point being, and it goes, I'd say even with the Yigal Messicka stuff, all that, is, I don't like to advise people, but I'll just say what my, life is less stressful for me, because I try not to comment, on anything I don't know about. And I don't know about a lot. So I've got, I can comment informally with a friend, but to kind of make a big point, and make a big stand, and make personal digs, and I'm not saying it's happened here, I'm just saying genuinely, I see that a lot of people, and I go, it doesn't sound like you've looked into this enough, to kind of, stop being judge, jury, and executioner. You know? And I'm not judging, And I think as well, even, like, what we've been talking about, of, knowing other products, that are in the same, genre, or, either, could be similar, to the similar effects, or, as I said, like train tracking, I think that's very close to this, or the Joshua Queen thing, something like that. They're very close, but we can compare, the pros and cons, to each of them, and it's the same with, Ring Wallet Watch, isn't it? From Ben, you know? That had a little bit, but, what's the comparisons? Because there's so many comparisons, for different stuff in that genre, so if you know all the others, you know what you're looking out for, and the good and the bad, between everything. Yeah. Yeah, and I think the key is, don't, don't buy the things, you think are overpriced, or, that are cheeky, or, if you think something takes the piss, have a laugh about it, get, get angry with, with your friends, but, and again it sounds like I'm giving people, I'm telling people what to do, I'm talking to myself here, which I do, this is a conversation I have with myself, all the time, when I feel something online, and I want to get on, I just go, I think, what's the consequence of this, is it going to create a ---- storm, or, does something need to be, you know, does something need to be said, and, and I'm not saying that's the case, or not, in this, but I do think it became something, that was, that built up without, maybe, prior knowledge. So, I'm glad Shay, spoke to, to me, even personally, so I could get some clarity on it, and I'd love to know what people's feelings are, as long as they're nice, and they don't, I think it was a very open podcast, really, like, if anything, like, that gives you more information about the product, what, we really wanted from the start, than anything, and I think that would have been nice, but yeah, like, it really opened up to it, obviously you didn't have to, when you explained, you went into full depth of everything, and, you know, straight from beginning to end with it all, I think, which was, was good, talking about, like, the development, the process, and up until where we are today, really, with it all. We should have done an affiliate thing, shouldn't we? Because if you think, a thousand dollars, if we got a percentage of that, that's like, four, two, go-to-good, two good-to-go bags each day. we could have written a hundred blogs on it, scattered them, stuffed them with keywords, and scattered them around the internet, and done an affiliate thing. But, well, I think you could, we'll start a PDF out of our own. Yeah. Just do that. So, I know the big complaint was, like, it's a one-in-eight type of a thing, really. Obviously, it does go over about that in the book, about the one-in-eight plot, you know, it's, it's magician's type of a thing, isn't it? You know, you've got the, in the hands, which is, one-in-five mean, how many people do ESP card work? You know, it's still one-in-five, or whatever. So, I think, the one-in-eight, isn't too bad, really, because you're still getting such a strong hit, and, what he can do is, he can expand upon it. I think that's the main thing to remember, isn't it? It's like, you can pick one-in-eight categories for a lot of stuff, as well. He tells you how to change it, and apply it to your own stuff, and come up with your own, Rolex-style system, I suppose. But, I think the one-in-eight is, still, something that can be, is overlooked a lot, really, with how big it is. Yeah. And as he said, which I never, I suppose I have thought about it before, but he said, you know, people say it's only one-in-eight, you know, yeah, but what's the witch hand, you know, and, or what's the dice, you know, one-in-six, and so, Yeah. That's, again, that's a good, that's a good point, right? So, you've got, let's say, before all the other dice came out, the only way you could buy the dice was, Labco, right? Really? Was that the, I'm not quite sure. I think they had the original, well, I'm not probably sticking to one of the early ones, didn't they? Yeah, and how much was that? That one that went on a thing? Oh, there were a lot, if I remember back in the day. Right. So, all right, well, let's take that as a, as a thing. So you've got, Yeah, that was like a thousand, fifteen hundred, maybe more, wasn't it? You got one-in-six for a grand, right? Yeah. So, that's it. That's a good thing. But, if you want to criticise the options, like, you still do a book test, and what's that? One-in-ten-thousand? Well, why don't you just say to them, think of any word, in the world, all right? If that's where you want it to, it's down to the performance, isn't it, really? Like, Yeah, and I don't think that, by the way, so I think it's, yeah, but you're right, it's that thing of, it's, those constraints are, I'm very conscious that I'm, I'm sounding like I'm just really, really sticking up for it. I don't want to, I just, this is genuinely my opinion, and people don't have to agree. I don't think it, we'll say, I don't think it comes without, and it's definitely not for everybody, not in terms of, as we say, of professionals for paying that price, or it being in a show. As it's mentioned, you can do this one-on-one, you can do it one-on-two, or you can do this for a whole audience, which I think is the strongest part, like, that whole thing, just imagining doing that for everybody is amazing, but I think one of the big things to think about is it very much depends on who the performer is, and how they perceive themselves into the audience. So, as Shay says, like, he's a psychic. I think this really applies well to his performance, what he reveals along the way, and how he gets from point A to point B. Whereas, many magicians these days, they like to use the whole body language, psychological subtleties, all that ----, and it's like, it's, I don't know, all that ----. Sounds like I'm knocking it. I used to say it myself, like, yeah. Like, but, yeah, that type of thing, like, this would be a disaster. I just can't, I struggle to talk, and just, no. You have to leave that in, because that's made me tilt. And I think that's the thing of like, they're trying to get across, but for me, and we might have to cut this part out, but I think for me, like, I'd really find it difficult to explain the vision that you say at the end, because it's not as accurate enough, whereas I'm doing the, the little bits of mentalism that I had, it wouldn't be very much about the psychic stuff. It would be more of an accurate, like, the word you're thinking of is cheese. So I'd want something more like that, but you can do that as well, which I still think is really good. You can still get that initial, the word that they're thinking of, especially in an audience. Like, you imagine just doing it one innate audience, you're thinking of this word, you're thinking of that word, and you just point to people. Yes. And, and that's where I think you, does that make sense? It makes it, yeah, no, I'll keep that in, I think, yeah, because basically he, he gives a reading on, based on, and he says this, it's, so you've got the, you've got the, and this is genuinely with mentalism thing, I think, you've got the, what do they call it? Not disassociation, having a mental block, but when you're not just giving the word, you're giving the thing that's associated with it, right? So instead of saying, oh, the question you're thinking of, if you answer it, then, so you're not, you're not telling them you're thinking of this, you're saying, here's, here's an answer to that question that you're thinking of, that is connected to this category, so therefore, it's essentially a broader Q and A, isn't it? Like, Q and A, you'd be like, what am I wearing? And you could do that, what's in my pocket? Whereas this is very much kind of, ask me a, somewhat of an open-ended question, you know, could it be about the future type of a thing? And I will, or this type, one of the categories, and then you are telling them what they, they think from that. Yeah. So you're telling them that, which I'm sure is strong. Yeah. And you are giving them, and then the question that they choose to ask, based in that category, you are, you are answering that, some way, but that's, that's the thing that I don't think some people will click with. It's not for everybody, is that type of a way. I think you're right. And I think that, But there's also no reason you couldn't link that with, um, did you ever see Ken Dines Whisper? No, you talked about this. You, I mean, you said to me, yeah, I think that'd be a really good way to do it. Like if you were in an audience as well, um, that moment of just walking up to somebody and just whispering in the rear, and just seeing their reaction, because you are going to hit, you're going to get that. And it's very accurate. Even if it was just a throwaway moment or something, you know, added onto everything. I think this, for this, you can perform the Rolex system exactly as he says in the book. You know, there's a few different versions, but for the whole audience, as he says, but if you linked that with all the tricks, um, or other methods and stuff like that, I think you've got such a strong toolbox of different stuff, uh, to work with Whisper and that Michael Marie to Z, I think it was called on nine to five. One of them, I can't remember, um, stuff like that. I think if you linked a lot of things, you know, pendulum work, I think it would go really nice with pendulum stuff as well, because the way you're getting the information, it could be the next step up or I'm using the pendulum to read this. So as he said, I'm using it as an antenna, doesn't it? Um, and that could be your way. And then you had a nice idea of talking about it like that. So, yeah, I think there's different ways that you can adapt to yourself, but it's just a very niche for the performers and it's for the right performer. But then that comes back to me. It's difficult for the form to know that it's theirs without spending the money because they don't know what they get in and back to square one. And the vicious circle continues. Absolutely. And I say that I, you know, my thing is, I suppose I'm closing with that. I totally get it. I'm not saying it's brilliant. Everybody should get it. I'm totally not saying that at all. But what I, what I am saying, and it's my point of view is that what it isn't is a scam. I think it's genuinely something that will work for a lot of people. It won't work for everybody. It's an expensive investment and you're not making an investment with certainty that, that then it's your, your gamble really in it, you know? And there are flaws of it and there are flaws with the way it was marketed, marketed, but what it isn't, it is a scam. I just generally don't think it is. Yeah, that's it. I think it's, it's just what it says on the tin at the end of the day. Like, yeah, I mean, the tin's difficult to read, but yeah, you're there. Yeah. Right. But you know, you got it. Yeah. And so I'd love people's opinion. Do genuinely, um, you know, send us, uh, emails. Uh, we'll do, we'll, we'll have a special email for this at some point when we put Steve at Steve Falkner dot com or Steve at OnlineMagic.co and we'll both send them on to Toby and, um, and the next time we do this, we'll answer questions, comments, uh, and, you know, just keep an eye on the channel, uh, Real Magic Review. Make sure your notifications are on if you want to keep up to speed. Um, that isn't the end. I just wanted to say that in regards to that. So let's, I'll tell you what, let's leave it there. Um, like I said, everybody do the, do the newsletter thing so we can let you know when things go live. Steve Falkner dot com forward slash newsletter. We'll get a proper page sorted out for this, but, uh, yeah. Thanks, mate. That was great. Yeah, that was good. Interesting to talk about all and, uh, actually too. Yeah. All right, mate. Take care. All right. Bye.