$3 Billion Leaves Bitcoin ETFs. Why Wall Street Isn't Panicking

On today's Public Keys at the New York Stock Exchange, Bitcoin ETFs rack up a $2.97 billion outflow streak, everything you need to know about margin trading, and the DTCC names the first public blockchain for its tokenized securities platform. I'm Jensen Assey. Dave Lavelle is with me. Let's get into it. Happy Monday, everyone. Today's episode is brought to you by Kraken Pro, regulated spot margin trading. It's finally available to you as traders. Size your trades to match your conviction. Trade margin on Kraken Pro. All right, let's dig into where we are this morning. Dave, I am so happy to have you here as my co-host today. Happy Monday. How are you? Happy Monday. I am so happy. ConsenSys is so much fun co-hosting with you. It's always a good time to be back on the show. Of course, excited to have you here at the New York Stock Exchange. We kick the show off by talking about what we're watching, what we're watching going into the week, and some of the big events from last week. For me, the Jamie Dimon, Brian Armstrong back and forth has been something that has really stood out. I mean, look, it makes sense that there is uncertainty in the market, and there's a lack of clarity, no pun intended, on what the regulatory rails are going to be around stablecoins and yields that are generated from stablecoins. Obviously, this has a potential material impact on banks, the largest scale banks, and also the smallest regional banks and community banks. So until there's real definition around what the regulatory framework is going to be, obviously, there's going to be some debate, and everyone's going to be playing their own cards and making sure that they're positioning themselves as best as they possibly can. So I'm not totally surprised by any of this, but everyone's waiting to get that definition. Dave, something you and I heard a lot from our guests at ConsenSys was that the passing of clarity isn't really going to affect business, how it's being done, but it is really that stamp of approval that is really going to tell investors, wealth managers, advisors, that this thing is here and it's here to stay. Things like this, when I hear this back and forth, it makes me feel like, are we at a contentious point where maybe this doesn't get across the line as fast as it needs to? And some of those companies that we were talking about maybe start to roll back some of their offerings. I don't hear much in the market that talks about it not getting over the finish line. Everything that I hear in market is what the finer details are going to be. And so obviously, you have a very strong community bank lobby. Who knows where that community lobby is being pressured, but that really gets the attention of every senator, every Congress member, because that means that there's a constituent base that they all really have to care about. So if a community bank lobby or community banks in general are making noise about an issue, it's very hard for any member of Congress to not pay attention. All right. So you think we're going to get to a happy medium on this? Listen, I think it's going to come down to the ethics provision. And then after we get over that, there's going to be some debate on the floor for sure. And there's going to be a lot of constituents who are going to be ensuring that they're paying attention to their interests. But I think we get over the finish line. Yeah. Two other big stories that I'm watching and inform the programming today. One, I mentioned it at the top of the show, that $2.97 billion outflow. I know. I was like, it's not that big of a deal. Here's the deal. Let me tell you. All right. Here's the deal. We got Bitcoin prices to roughly $120,000. And that got the overall pool of Bitcoin ETPs to over $100 billion. And then we obviously saw a retracement in the Bitcoin price down to the $70 range. And we have, once again, eclipsed $100 billion in ETF assets in the Bitcoin cohort. So we're talking about more shares coming online and more assets being accumulated in these products. You and I have been on the show and talked about Morgan Stanley bringing a product to market that has garnered hundreds of millions of dollars in assets in the first four to six weeks. So there's plenty of runway for this. I think what people fail to realize is ETFs definitely are an investment vehicle, but they are also an exposure vehicle. So they are built for investors for buy and hold long-term investing, but they are also a very, very strong capital markets vehicle for short-term exposure. And so you have a non-correlated user base. You have this buy and hold cohort, and then you have a very kind of more quick money cohort. And that allows for real quick capital allocation coming in and out. So I see $3 billion coming out of $100 billion pool, and I don't think much of it. So not that big of a deal. We are going to talk to Eric Balchunas in just a moment. But curious for your read on this last week on the show, we took a look at those Bitcoin outflows. We took a look at some analysts that were saying the capital is actually rotating into some other ETFs like Hype, Sol, XRP. What are you seeing? How are you watching that? Hype has really been the shining star in the ETF stories lately. Yeah, at hundreds of millions of dollars in assets, not billions. So I think there may be a rotation, but I think this is really more of a story of the Bitcoin ETF acting as a capital markets tool, acting as an institutional exposure vehicle, and allowing investors, you know, institutional investors to have high conviction that they're going to get a precise price of Bitcoin with quick ability to kind of get in and out. All right. So let's take a look at the ETF flows now. Of course, as we hear this, take it all with a grain of salt, as Dave has just explained to us what's going on. Bitcoin spot ETFs are heading into June a little bit battered. They shed $1.42 billion last week. The worst weekly drain since late January, capping a brutal stretch that saw single session outflows of $649 million on May 18th and $733 million on May 27th. BlackRock's IBIT led the bleeding. Ethereum didn't fare much better. Spot ETH ETFs logged 14 consecutive days of outflows, with last week's total hitting $241 million. The outflow leader was BlackRock's ETH-A at $188 million. Analysts point to the same macro cocktail behind both, CPI running at 3.8%, the highest since May 2023, PPI jumping to 6% and rate cut expectations getting pushed further out. And then there's the hype ETF that we were just talking about becoming the loan's bright spot, with both the hype token and US spot ETF products attracting steady inflows, outperforming the wider market. 21 shares of IBIT have products on the market, with Grayscale updating its filing last week, saying it's negotiating to sell shares in the fund in exchange for 21 million hype tokens. You saw that Grayscale story. I mean, I know you come from Grayscale. What did you make of that? Grayscale has been working towards bringing their own hype product to market. I think in the filing, it also talks about their ability to have a pretty strong seed. So I think you're going to see Grayscale being a real player in this hype ETF race, despite the fact they're going to be third to market. So I think hype is probably the most exciting single token crypto ETP story that we've seen in a while. And I think as hype continues to, I think it's like HIP4 is coming out now, it's going to have something to do with prediction markets. There's going to be opportunity to have more development on that protocol. It's going to be exciting. The competition is heating up. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Analyst Erica Balchunas joins us to talk more about all things ETFs. Never had a trade you called right, but size too small. It happens all the time and it can change today. Regulated spot margin is finally available to U.S. traders on Kraken Pro, up to 10X, the size your conviction deserves. Head to pro.kraken.com and start trading today. Welcome back to Coindesk's Public Keys at the New York Stock Exchange, here to make sense of what's been a brutal few weeks for crypto ETFs, the outflows, the macro headwinds, and whether the hype race is the real deal. Bloomberg Senior ETF Analyst, Eric Balchunas. Hey, Eric. Eric, how are you? Hey, Dave, what's up? I thought we were going to see you down here. We thought you were going to be here with us. You know, gracing us with your three dimensions. I do all these crypto things and it's like 95% of the time at Zoom, I just, I don't know, I just assumed it was Zoom. If you told me to be down there, I would have said I couldn't do it because I have all my stuff in New York today in our office here. All right, we're going to go to the receipts afterwards. I couldn't have made it physically. We're going to get those receipts, Eric. Okay, Eric, I need your help. Everyone is making a big deal about $3 billion in outflows in a $100 billion market. I made a big deal of it. And I was like, it's not a big deal. This is like not at all a big deal. So come join me in calming all the, you know, quelling all the concerns that there's something bigger going on here. Yeah, this is people. I mean, you guys work in the crypto media, so you're even like probably more chill than most people. But the regular media loves it when bad things happen to Bitcoin. And so they're all over this. I just saw Wall Street Journal like brutal outflows. And I'm like, this is all so absurd. Dave knows better than anybody having worked at State Street that like, you know, we sometimes see flows out of SPY or VOO or IVV. These are the big S&P 500 ETFs. It's no big deal. I mean, if anything is within like 5% of the assets, it's totally meaningless. It's just noise. But I will say, Bitcoin has been down. It went on a 50% drawdown just about. And for it to be about even year to date in flows, that's even with the recent outflows, it's about flat, is a minor miracle, frankly. Normally, when you have these sort of higher volatile, I call them hot sauce type strategies, the money is less sticky. Bitcoin kind of broke that mold. It's almost got S&P 500 stickiness. And so when I look at the flow since inception, which to me is the most important number, that's the one to watch. So you look at the flow since inception. The cumulative number hit $63 billion. That was a high watermark. It's now come down to about $57. That's pretty close to its high watermark. So I mean, considering a 50% drawdown, that is extremely durable. So if the price were to go back up, if it goes on a nice run, it won't take long before it reaches back to that new high watermark. The other thing I would say is $63 billion in two years and change is absurd. Again, this is the biggest ETF launch by far, multiple times over. And I bet in particular, I think it still has like $55 billion or something. Even though it hit $100 billion in 18 months, which again shatters all records, even if it stuck at $50 billion until the year 2030, it would still be the fastest ETF to hit $50 billion. So it has like four years to just do nothing, and it would still be the fastest ETF to $50 billion, which again, just gives you some idea of how amazing the flows have been. So when someone looks at this, it's almost like looking at Michael Jordan and be like, oh my God, how come he only scored 32 points and not 34 in this one game? Yeah, it's actually a really funny thing when you start looking at the actual shares outstanding, Eric, because you had a massive drawdown in price. People forget that AUM is a very simple arithmetic of shares outstanding times asset price. So you've had massive drawdown in asset price, but you haven't lost AUM, which is showing that the shares outstanding is continuing to climb. And I think you and I would both agree that the real adoption for the wealth management market and kind of the advised market hasn't truly got going yet. We haven't seen these products being added to models. We haven't seen broad-based adoption by the advisor community. And so there's a real opportunity for an accelerant. And by the way, that's not including any sort of asset price increase. Yeah, you bring up a good point. There's two ways to get assets, either the price of the thing you track goes up or flows. The reason flows are good is because it eliminates market appreciation. Flows are pure sentiment and investors voting with their feet. So that's why I think the most important number is cumulative net flows lifetime. Again, that's at 57 billion. It had a high of 63. So you'd like it to be up at 63, but it had a huge drawdown. So I just think 57 is really strong. The other thing I would say to your point, Dave, is you're right. People love to overthink things. You just have Morgan Stanley coming in. Goldman is about to put out a Bitcoin premium income ETF. And the guy launching it was the mastermind of JEPI, which is an equity premium income ETF, which is the largest active equity ETF in the world. That guy is now applying that thing to Bitcoin. Then you've got iShares putting out their own premium income ETF. So you have BlackRock and Goldman coming out with new products soon as well. This whole Wall Street apparatus is very into this asset. That should keep it with at least a good amount of future bid offers. The only thing I do worry about, and I think this is something where the industry itself has to kind of figure this out, is the messaging shouldn't only be, hey, the boomers are coming. That makes it seem more Ponzi-ish, like we just need more investors. I think the message is that the fundamental purpose and value here is that the government is going to print money like crazy no matter who's president. And if you want a hedge, something that the government cannot debase, this is a powerful asset for that, similar to gold. The fundamental story is what they should be talking about more, because you want to have investors outside of the ETF apparatus. The ETF is going to get you a lot of people. And obviously, the message will help. But I just think they need to also focus on going back to the roots of what Bitcoin is for, how interesting of a technology it is. Don't forget that. I think the whole thing shouldn't just be, oh my god, there were ETF outflows. Everything's over. You have to remember, that's just one part of the whole big deal. And I think sometimes the ETFs became such a big story, they almost overtook the narrative. But that isn't the main narrative. It's just like icing on the cake, in my opinion. Yeah. So everyone needs to calm down, is what I'm hearing. Well, I mean, Jen, he makes an incredible point. But the truth of the matter is, what do you call it, spicy sauce or hot sauce? Hot sauce. It's not hot sauce to talk about anything about debasing of currency, and so pop a little Bitcoin into your client's account. So I think when things become a little bit more deterministic, and you have a better settling down in Congress, and you have a more even regulatory infrastructure, and there's less uncertainty there, I think people will kind of get to a less spicy story. But hype, all right? What do you think? What's the asset base in the hype ETFs going to be? What do you think? And do you think that this could be the next hot sauce? Yeah. Hype reminds me of Hansel from Zoolander. Remember? He's the hot new model. It's like Hansel, so hot right now. And then Ether and Zoolander, they're like Ben Stiller. They're like, oh my god, I can tell they're getting jealous. But yes, this is the hot new crypto. And honestly, crypto probably needed a good story like this, because the ETF thing had kind of flattened out. It became a little bit old news. And here comes hype. There have been a couple launches, like Avalanche, and I forget another one, didn't do much. But this one has moved the needle. It did something that's very rare with ETFs. It came out and it traded, I think, like $10 million the first day. That's really good. That's like top 1%. It's like, OK, good. It had a good first day. Normally, then it sort of goes down in increments, because there's a huge first day, everybody's excited. And then it kind of comes down and settles at an average. This went up every day after for about 10 days. Now it's trading like $40 million, $50 million a day, and there's two of them. And they're both up 50-something percent since they launched. So you have really hot sauce returns. And increasing volume, that's a very good sign. And what I learned about Hyperliquid seems very powerful. I really like the idea of the token holders getting paid via the buybacks from the fees, because sometimes it is unclear how a token actually benefits from the growth of the blockchain or the fees. And I like that really easy-to-understand, one-for-one narrative of, OK, if this thing grows, I get a direct result of that with my token. So I think it's a good story. I think it's a much-needed story for the rest of crypto, which had been kind of floundering a little bit. And it also shows that this space is always innovating. You think, OK, everything's been known, and boom, here comes this new one. And it just shows there's people out there who are very smart building stuff all the time. That's what I tell people sometimes. You may not like this industry. You may think it's like this thing over there you don't need to worry about. But there's a ton of smart people. If you go to conferences and talk to people, these are very innovative people. There are real business solutions in the crypto world. And Bitcoin, obviously, is more like a gold. But the rest of crypto is, again, really like upstart tech companies. And I think HyperLiquid shows that. HyperLiquid, the hot new model on the scene, what do you think happens to the crypto ETFs when we get ETFs related to SpaceX? Do you think that becomes the hot new model and we start seeing some capital rotate out? Well, to be fair, we've already seen a lot of capital get sucked up by the AI trade in general. And the high bandwidth stocks like this one ETF, DRAM, came out of nowhere to take it to get to $10 billion faster than IBIT even. So this is the sexy hot new trade for sure. Stocks rarely get this hot. This is almost like 90s internet hot. So this is unusual. It will calm down. The valuations are very stretched. And I think that's a good point. I think a lot of people, somebody has talked about how a lot of people have spent their gold profits to buy tech stocks right now. And I think we're seeing a lot of that. So I think Bitcoin feels a little like just average right now. But at some point, things that go down look like opportunities again. So this hot money will flow from here to there. But I've seen this in ETF. I call it the trading crowd and the hot money. You don't want to always rely on that. I think generally the bigger and more important thing is the slow money. The advisors who are like, yes, let me allocate for five or 10 years. That's the more important money. But sure, the hot money will come in and out depending on momentum. And right now, I think the AI stocks have all momentum. And SpaceX is only going to add to that. But I think down the road, it's that base of advisor money that's way more important. Eric, thanks so much for joining us. So joining us, albeit not in person, we look forward to the day when we get to see you in the flesh. Take care. Next time, maybe. All right. Bye. Bye. All right. That was Eric Valchunas, Senior ETF Analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence. Moving right along to our next segment, this is 10X, brought to you by Kraken Pro. Now with up to 10X regulated spot margin in the U.S., make the right read at the right size with margin on Kraken Pro. Over the upcoming weeks, we'll be talking to some of the highest conviction traders in crypto to understand what they're sizing into and why. But first, we build on last week's segment and unpack more of the mechanics with Dave LaValle. Dave, let's get into it. Yeah, let's go. You ready to talk margin trading? Let's do it. All right. So last week, we really got the basics. What is margin trading? What's the difference between crypto margin trading, equity margin trading? My first question for you is what separates a professional trader from everyone else when it comes to using leverage? I have to be honest. It's education. It's understanding what you're dealing with. And, you know, I always talk about kind of what we saw in the ETF market, because that's where I come from. And there's a lot of levered opportunities in ETFs. You have to know what you own and you have to know how it works. And so there's really kind of a suitability concern. And I think that oftentimes a levered trade for a retail investor is more of an emotional trade and a momentum trade when leverage for, you know, an institutional investor or an institutional trader is really rooted in totally understanding where your entry points are, where your exit points are, how you're thinking about the volatility, how you're tracking the data you have. So I think there's like a big difference between the two. Leverage is great when it's going wrong or going right. It just gets really uncomfortable when it goes wrong. Yeah. We talked a little bit about that last week, too. I mean, let's let's build on that. Just watching the space, speaking to traders out there, both on the institutional side and retail side. What's the biggest mistake you see or you've heard of that people make when they start trying to experiment with leverage? Just not knowing they're out. Right. And not understanding the margin, you know, reality. So you put whatever. If it's three to one leverage, you put up your margin. You have three times that buying power. If you have a drawdown, you need to kind of up your margin to ensure you don't get a margin call. And margin calls never come at the time when, you know, the retail investor wants it. And so then you can put yourself in a really precarious position and then you can end up being, you know, kind of unwound and taking a loss. So you didn't necessarily want to trade. So the most important thing is really knowing what your entry point is, knowing what your risk tolerance is and knowing where you're out is and really being disciplined about it. But you tend to not see that with retail investors and you tend to see that with institutional investors. Institutional investors are traders that I have managed in my time that don't have discipline in the way they trade, don't stay institutional traders for very long. OK, the last question I want to ask you here is this this whole segment is about conviction, right? We're going to have traders on the segment. They're going to be talking about their highest conviction trades. People are going to be listening to them. What should people be listening for? We obviously are not giving financial advice, but what should people be listening for when when they're hearing about these high conviction trades? We hear it on social media all the time, you know. Process. I mean, people that I have seen to be the most successful traders have a process and have discipline. So understand and this is the questions that we should actually be asking these traders that come on. Talk to me about your process. It's less about what the actual idea is because something can be hot in the moment and you can ride a momentum trade and you can be very successful. But talk about the process. What's your entry point? How do you think about it? How do you kind of put stuff in the funnel and narrow it down to what you want to invest in? And how do you know your risk tolerance? How do you assess that risk tolerance and how do you set a disciplined out? All right, Dave. Well, what a pleasure it was. I'm packing good fun with you. Good fun. We're going to have more fun on this segment as the weeks progress. Right now, we're going to take a quick break. Let me come back to Nell Dixon joins us. Ever had a trade you called right, but size too small. It happens all the time and it can change today. Regulated spot margin is finally available to U.S. traders on Kraken Pro, up to 10x the size your conviction deserves. Head to pro.kraken.com and start trading today. Back to Coindesk's public keys at the New York Stock Exchange. U.S. clearing giant DTCC picked Stellar as the first public blockchain to connect its upcoming tokenized security settlement platform. Joining us now is the CEO and Executive Director of the Stellar Development Foundation, Danell Dixon. Hey, Danell. Hi, nice to see you guys. Yeah, nice to see you as well. Great to have you here. All right, Danell, I just want to start with a big picture question for you. Lay the foundation for us. When we think about this partnership, talk to us about the future that you're building towards when it comes to tokenization. I know we've got some numbers out of Citi this morning predicting that tokenized securities will go to $5.5 trillion by 2030. But what are you working towards? I mean, we're working towards all of that. The truth of the matter is we've been doing this for the last 14 years. And really, Stellar was built for exactly what's happening right now. Just in the last few months, if you think, we crossed a billion in tokenized assets on Stellar, RWAs on Stellar in December. We're now at $3 billion in just five months. And that's kind of crazy. So we're watching this market just really, really take off. And I think that this partnership with DTCC just demonstrates that when you actually build for institutions, and you build for compliance, and with all of that in mind, the assets come. And so for me, I look at this as just like the moment Stellar was built for, there's so much more to come. But I also look at it like that real shift of watching these institutional players really take this technology seriously and understand the value, not just to their retail side, but also to all the businesses that they build with. Okay. So let's just take a giant step back for a moment, because before we dive into the announcement of DTCC, which is, by the way, fantastic. Congratulations. I have a question about kind of what we've seen on the regulatory side and the legislative side. So how much do you think the Genius Act and kind of getting stable coins, right, as probably the greatest example that tokenization does work, how has that acted as an accelerant, do you think? And then also, how much of this success hinges on the Clarity Act? Yeah, those are great questions. The Genius Act was one of those things that really did demonstrate that we're here now, and that institutions can build because the US government has said, this is an industry that we're going to support through this regulatory environment. But the truth of the matter is the SEC and other players were actually already, like Franklin Templeton built the money market fund on Stellar, the very first money market fund they started building in 2019, with SEC going alongside with them. So there was always this lean into this technology, but the Genius Act allowed it to really take root. And we then saw so many institutions say, okay, we're really going to do this. We've been talking to so many for so long, they were building sort of in stealth mode. And the Genius Act really moved that forward. The Clarity Act is complicated because there's so much going on with respect to it, and so many different tensions now we see with the ethics piece of it. I don't think that if the Clarity Act goes through, that's going to be great for us, great for the industry. I think great for just creating that stable market, creating some, that you can build this infrastructure into lots of different pieces. I don't actually think if it doesn't go through, that it hampers that sort of excitement about the technology. I just think that there might be some players who will get spooked by the fact that it didn't happen. But that's a short term blip. I think that long term, this technology is here. Everybody sees the value of it. And now we're moving into mainstream. I want to talk about the technology for just a second. The DTCC processed $4.7 quadrillion in securities transactions last year. I think we see that number and we think, are blockchains ready for this level of transactions? Talk to us about how you're preparing for this launch in 2027 from a technical perspective. Yeah, I mean, Stellar's been, it's one of the oldest blockchains. It has 99.99% uptime. So from that standpoint, we feel pretty good about it. There are billions of transactions that are processed on Stellar every quarter. And so when we think about the, like the network is ready for it, the volume is going to take time to creep up. It's not going to be the quadrillions on right away. But I think, you know, you always have to look at scalability as being your bottleneck. And so it's something that we focus on a lot. We focus on it, not just with respect to making sure the tech stack has that security in it, but you also need to make sure that it's going to scale so that you can continue that uptime because that's what these folks care about. You can't have a network halt when you're processing these types of transaction for an institution like that. So it's one of the things we always pay close attention to, but the scale is not going to happen on day one. It's going to take time. And then you'll see like the things that you need to be able to bring into it. I'm really excited about that. Like, it's one of the things that, you know, we've always built for institutions. We always have really focused there even when the institutions weren't there. So now to see the institutions coming to it, we're ready for this. So let's talk specifically about, for a moment, specifically about the DTCC kind of digital twin model. Talk to me about how you feel about the digital twin model, if you think that's going to be the winner, if Stellar is somewhat agnostic. I mean, there's a lot of talk about tokenization and whether it's going to be an issuer-led decision and, you know, everyone's kind of jockeying to figure out where they fit in this kind of wave of tokenization innovation. I think it's always, to assume that it's going to be issuer-led is hard because issuers don't necessarily always have the background and understanding of the tech stacks that are available to them. So I think it's a combination of both. And frankly, if you think of, there's going to be the, there has to be this focus on what the tech stacks have to offer. Stellar built compliance in at its core. So it's always open at the base layer and then it's, you can, it's composable so that you can actually figure out when you want to put the compliance pieces in. The callback functionality, all of that was built in to the network layer. So you didn't need a smart contract to be able to, you can, you can use a smart contract, but you didn't need one to issue an asset. You could issue it on the native platform. And that's the same way that we're contemplating privacy as that privacy is being built at the same thing, open at the base layer, and then you can compose whatever, however you want to be able to, to bring the different pieces of privacy in for the assets that you have, you can do that. I think those are really important pieces for blockchains to be able to offer from a tech stack standpoint, but frankly, not every issuer is going to understand those details. So they're going to take someone else's lead. We were just speaking about the hot competition when it comes to crypto ETFs, but there is also a very hot competition when it comes to blockchains vying for that institutional adoption. Danelle, talk to us about how you're thinking about that. Is there going to be one blockchain to win it all? And is that going to be stellar or is there going to be a blockchain for different use cases and you can all kind of thrive in your own area of expertise? So the answer I want to give you is that there's one blockchain to win it all and it's stellar. But the truth of the matter is that's not the way that it's going to go. We're going to see lots of blockchains out there be successful. There's probably going to be five, six of them that are going to really take on the lion's share of the RWA piece. And it is going to be based on what your strengths are and what those asset issuers are looking for. And I think that there's a multi-chain world. And for anybody to pretend like there's not, it's just ignoring the fact that there's a lot of strong competition out there and that benefits everyone. It makes us better. It makes it better for the institutions that want to come build here because we're constantly going to be involving. The important thing is open public networks are the ways that is the path that everyone should be on because those networks move and change dramatically and very quickly based on all of the people and entities that are building on top of them globally. Just like the internet. It's here to stay. And it's something that is like exceptionally valuable for everyone that's building on top of it. All right, Danelle, we are going to have to leave it there. Thanks so much for joining us. Yeah, pleasure to be here. Thanks guys. That was Stellar Foundation CEO and Executive Director Danelle Dixon. Dave, it's come to an end. The show has come to an end. Out of time again. I know. It was such a pleasure having you here. It was great being here. Come back anytime. I'm always happy to come. All right. For Dave LaValle, I'm Jensen Assey. Thanks so much for watching Public Keys at the New York Stock Exchange. We'll see you next week.