Relationship Therapist Ranks STRANGER THINGS Romances

This episode is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one platform to build a beautiful website and grow your brand. Remember the dream I told you about? All Nuggets. When the Beatles sing, All You Need Is Love... I just needed you. It's not true. You also need shared dreams. From the day we met, you've seen me. It's, I care about your safety, I care about your well-being, I want to be someone you can count on. Will you not marry me? To actually be love. It's the act of love, right? It's all the work that you put into it. It's safety, it's belonging, it's trust. You're their breast stroke. Oh my gosh! Do we have to explain why this is not okay? Hello and welcome to Cinema Therapy. I'm Alan Seawright, a professional filmmaker who needs therapy. I'm joined by my co-host... Jonathan Decker, licensed therapist who loves pop culture and television. He knows what we're going to talk about, but you don't yet, except you do, because you clicked on a thumbnail. Why the f*** did we do an introduction? Nobody knows. Here it is. I'm going to have him, who's a professional relationship therapist, rank relationships in Stranger Things. Are they good or are they bad? And how good are they? And let's put them in a list, because the internet loves lists. Did I do it? No notes. So we're going unhealthiest to healthiest. Unhealthiest. Karen Wheeler and Billy. The internet shipped these two. The internet is stupid. The internet is dumb, guys. I don't know what else to say. You know, I could, uh... I could teach you, if you like. He's also a teenager. I know all the styles. As evidenced by that mustache. Butterfly. Breaststroke. Oh my gosh! You okay? I didn't think you... I didn't think you talked at all. Well, I offer more, uh... So one of the things I love about this is it's... It's not like a realistic seduction scene. No. But it's what seduction scenes felt like in movies targeted kind of at kids in the 80s and 90s. Yeah. Come to the Motel 6 for swim lessons. Shall we say tonight? Eight o'clock? I'm sorry. I can't. Can't what? Have fun? Mrs. Wheeler. I... I... I just, uh... That's it. That's it. I don't think I need any lessons. That's it. Mrs. Wheeler. I think you do. I just don't think that you've had the right tea. I have. It will be the workout of your life. Okay. The fact that she is sexually frustrated in her marriage... Yeah. What did I do? And that Billy is played by Dacre Montgomery. And that these two actors sell these erotic thriller lines. It's very... It's stranger instinct. Basic things going on here. I get why people are drawn to the chemistry of the actors. Oh, sure. They're both great. Looking at the situation, he is literally a minor. He is actually underage. This is not me complaining about an older woman with a younger man. That's fine. Yeah, if he's 19. If he's actually a man. Sure. If he's actually, you know, an adult. He's not. And you're saying right now, but they never actually get together. They don't have a romantic relationship. That's fair. They just kind of flirt around the edges of it. And Mrs. Wheeler ultimately does the right thing and says, I'm not going to betray my husband or my kids. Do we have to explain why this is not okay? It seems like it's self-evident. She's in a committed relationship. She's married. She should not be like... Look, if you're dissatisfied with your marriage, you can exit the marriage and then pursue other relationships. Or the couples therapy. Also good. I love that your first instinct is just be done. Well, listen. I'm just saying if you're trying to pursue relationships outside of marriage, you should be outside of a marriage before you pursue the relationships outside of the marriage. I know. You're absolutely right. There's a lack of integrity there. Yeah. Like, if you're done, then be done. Hey, have you all seen our cinema therapy website? It was so easy to build and customize using... Squarespace. We found a template that worked really well as a starting point for us. From one of the many professionally designed templates that Squarespace offers. And then it was so easy to customize with intuitive drag-and-drop editing and awesome visual designs. Your website can look as good as Steve's hair. No, that's not right. Your website's not going to look as good as Steve's hair, but it'll look good. Squarespace Domains also makes it easy for you to find the best site name for your business at one all-inclusive price. No add-ons. No hidden fees. No extra makeup charges, even though your hair's really big and tall. And every Squarespace domain comes with advanced privacy and security tools. Your site will even be safe from demodogs. I don't think they regularly attack websites, but sure. And Squarespace SEO tools will help you get discovered fast. Unless you're trying to hide from Vecna and you don't want that. Every website is optimized to be indexed with an auto-generated site map, meta descriptions, and more. So your site will show up more on search engines and reach more of your ideal audience and customers. So whether you need to build a website for the Hellfire Club... Or your Surfer Boys pizza delivery franchise... Or to advertise job openings at your Scoops Ahoy location at Starcourt Mall... Squarespace will work for you. And you won't have to spend months building a website. Go to squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch... Go to squarespace.com slash cinematherapy and use code cinematherapy to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Next, slightly healthier than underage infidelity... Nancy and Jonathan, but only just. Listen, these two, they come together because of shared trauma, and they have a really great friendship. And there are, to be fair, some really beautiful moments between them. But it's not a relationship based on wanting the same things out of life. It's not a relationship based on having shared interests. Like, they're not gonna last. And Jonathan tends to be very insecure. He tends to be very clingy. And he tends to be, like Steve, when it comes to Nancy, a little too possessive and a little too afraid instead of just trusting her. Though I will say, I love how Jonathan and Nancy end. I think that's very healthy. Because they felt an obligation to be with each other because they were each other's safety. They were each other's rock. But when love is obligation instead of chosen, it becomes heavy. It'd be nice to get something right for once in the end. And his engagement was, he was trying to put a band-aid on a bullet wound. He was gonna propose to see if it would solidify things instead of solidifying things and then proposing. It's like when people are like, our marriage is falling apart, so let's have a baby. You know what's gonna make this marriage work better? Lack of sleep. Again, love takes many forms. Because sometimes love isn't a happily ever after. Or sometimes a happily ever after isn't a happily ever after together. But you can still have genuine love. And that's what's beautiful about this scene. Is they're not really in love. But they do love each other. What'd she say? Just accept your un-proposal. It's such a great line. And this is such a beautiful... End of this version of their relationship. And they come together but they don't kiss. They don't hug. There's nothing sexual about that at all. That's Aragorn and Boromir, right? Four heads together. The companionship, the relationship. But it's not romantic love. And that's not what they're saying. They're not saying, I love you romantically. They're saying, you're family. That's the vibe, is that they will always... 20 years from now, Nancy calls Jonathan, Jonathan calls Nancy, says, I need you. I'm having a hard time, I just need my friend. You know they're gonna be there. Interesting that you were talking about their relationship solidifying. Because as soon as they settle on what their relationship actually is, everything solidifies, guys. It stops being a goop room and it starts being a shiny plastic room. It's so weird though. I'm watching this, I'm like, what is even happening? Is this toothpaste? What is... And just like the goop, their relationship becomes crusty. No, no! Don't start it, Brad! Next is Steve and Nancy. I'd actually rank them lower than Jonathan and Nancy if we're just looking at their romantic relationship. Oh sure, worse than... yep. Because Steve is highly insecure. I mean, he for the first time has genuine feelings for a woman when he's dating Nancy. And cannot process, so uses punches. Yeah, not on her, but he's too immature to deal with it at the time and he crashes that plane. But he keeps growing and I love that. Like he starts to change, kind of for her, and then he just keeps going for himself. And then of course she says to him that it's all bullshit and things just never really crystallize into something solid as a romantic pairing. But to the point of the conversation we're having, the love is genuine, so the love continues, but as a friendship. I always had this dream that I'd have this really big family. I'm talking like a full brood of Harringtons. Like five, six kids. Six? Yeah, six little nuggets. Three girls, three boys. Strapping boys like me. I figured all of us Harringtons, we'd pack into something like this and just see the country. You know, to the point where, like, we're in season four, they've been friends for a while now. He's clearly still carrying a torch. Yeah. And there's clearly some amount of attraction from Nancy. But what I love about where this ends up going... That sounds nice. ...is we get to see that they learn that they're kind of in a state of arrested development. Mm-hmm. And also this is a wonderful moment of vulnerability from Steve, but also... That sounds like a total nightmare. If only I had some practice. He's had lots of practice with kids. But it lands for Nancy, that's not what she wants. Right. Which is why, because look at this, we're talking about their friendship, but this is clearly romantic still. Yeah. But just because you could potentially be great as boyfriend and girlfriend doesn't mean you're great as life partners. Sure. This is why when the Beatles sing, All You Need Is Love, it's not true. You also need shared dreams. You need shared goals and shared ambitions. You need to be going down the same path of life together. Listen, I guess what I'm trying to say in a really stupid roundabout way is, um... is thank you. Thank me? Yeah. For... For giving me the biggest thump of its life two years ago. I needed it. It's changed my life. And now I'm crawling forward. Slowly. I just wonder sometimes, you know, if some other girl had given me a proper thump before we met would things have been different? Like, if we're meeting together for the first time right now, part of me... Yeah. I don't know. Part of me thinks that we would have made it. Steve. Remember the dream I told you about? About the Winnebago, about seeing the country with my six little nuggets? It's all true. But I left one part out. It's the most important part. You're there. You've always been. This is one of the best shoot-your-shot scenes I've ever seen. I mean, just because it doesn't go the way he wants doesn't matter. Hey, guys! Thanks, Robin. It doesn't matter that it doesn't go the way he wants because it can't because it's not what Nancy wants. I would actually push back on that a little bit. What makes this scene work so well for me is he knows. What he wants is not what he wants. What he wants is what she wants. Yeah. He goes into this scene knowing and saying, like, look, I think we would have made it if I had been a better person when we met. Yeah. But he's already acknowledging that maybe not. Yeah. Maybe it wouldn't have worked out. Mm-hmm. And that's okay. So we have perspective-taking, which I love. Yep. Steve leading with accountability. And accountability often goes hand-in-hand with gratitude. Okay. So he's accountable, grateful, and then he's vulnerable and direct. Folks, this is a healthy relationship cocktail. And we have the wrong idea, which is that healthy relationships always last or are always romantic. Right. Steve and Nancy do last as a friendship. But it is a healthy relationship because that scene, it's all on the table, and then they can decide, what do I want? And if we don't want the same things, we're going to give each other space and respect and love and ongoing affection no matter what. Yeah. It's not a lasting romantic relationship, but it is a healthy relationship. And that's why it's in the middle. Yeah. That makes sense. Because we're talking about romantic relationships. We're talking about romantic relationships. If we're talking about just healthy relationships, this is one of the healthier relationships. It's near the top, sure. Yeah. When we talk about healthy masculinity, accountable, grateful, vulnerable, at no point does anyone look at Steve Harrington and say, that's not a man. Correct. Next is Joyce and Hopper, and I'm kind of thinking maybe I would move them down. Yeah, I think I might put Steve and Nancy above them. Since we're talking about romance, I'm going to put Joyce and Hopper higher because of where they end up. Okay. But overall, I do think Steve and Nancy are a healthier relationship because Joyce and Hopper are basically Sam and Diane. You could make a pretty strong argument, and I will, that Steve and Nancy start more mature and end more mature than Joyce and Hopper. I never should have sent you that message. You didn't know what was going to happen. I knew it would be dangerous. So did I. I made this choice, and I would choose it again, even knowing everything that I know. I would. I love that we're having this big emotional conversation and she's in a whole Hogan t-shirt. Remember, I've been dreaming about it. Oh, yeah? Yes. But have it all planned out. They're a date. Pray tell. I'm getting two orders of breadsticks. Two. Those things knock your socks off. He has been starving in a Russian prison. To be fair, I didn't spend much time in a Russian prison. I did spend a couple of nights. It's a fun story. I did live in Russia for a long time. Breadsticks and lasagna. I've been on a diet of watery soup, moldy bread and maggots. So yeah, I've been dreaming about breadsticks and lasagna. I thought a lot more about food than I do now. Dreaming about something else? You tell me. Man, Winona Ryder's still got it. There's wine. Oh, wine's good. I was thinking about a nice Chianti. Chianti. Right. And then there's dessert. Gotta have dessert. And after that? I don't know. Imagination. Who needs imagination? Part of why I have them this high on the list, and as we're doing this live, I'm kind of reconsidering it. But part of why I have them this high on the list is kind of the warm fuzzies I was left with at the series finale. Him proposing, and also, I do think we see throughout this entire series, these two need to do some work on themselves before they get into a relationship. 100%. Like, I love both characters. I don't think either one should be in a relationship with anybody until they really fix some stuff. And look, they've been through a bunch of trauma. Joyce has lost her kid, and then kind of lost her kid again, and then definitely lost her kids, sort of, to the government. It's a lot. She had the show's healthiest relationship with Sean Astin. She did, for sure. And then he got... Dogged. Eaten by dogs. So, yucky. And then, you know, Hopper has obviously been through the s*** over and over and over again. Like, he's the only person in the world who got punched more than Steve. So... They've been so busy saving the world and looking after their kids. Part of the fun of them is how they bicker and fight and argue. Sure. It's great entertainment. It doesn't mean it's a healthy relationship. And I think I'm putting them this high in my headcanon because... There's a lot of headcanon that happens in that 18 months later. Right. In the final episode of the show. We see Joyce and Hopper. I think they have had the time. And I know that's headcanon, but we see, like, everything's been calm. There hasn't been danger. There hasn't been death. And by the time he proposes, I see a pair that are mature, that have got their s*** together, and they're going to have a happy long life together. And yes, the Duffers just kind of jumped over it. So... Right up until 18 months later, for me, I'm like, ah, they probably shouldn't have ended up together. Mm. I don't know that that's a romantic relationship that should have worked. They definitely should have tried. Yeah. But, like, the bickering and the fighting, especially in Season 3, I think should have sort of blown up spectacularly. And then when she goes to rescue him in Season 4, we can have, you know, the moment of, like, are we going to fall into each other's arms, or do we still kind of hate each other a little bit? Like, there's the duty there, and there's a love and an appreciation, but it shouldn't be, like, this. Yeah. I think I ranked them based on the warm and fuzzies I got, because that scene at the restaurant is very well acted and performed. Oh, for sure. And so I just kind of bought into it. But now I'm like, eh, eh. Yeah, so what do you guys think about Joyce and Hopper? Am I right? Should they be lower? Is Jono right? Should they be the number one relationship in the show, and we got it completely wrong? Let us know in the comments. Next, Mike and Elle. Here's where we get to some really beautiful stuff. From the day we met, you've seen me. There was a lot in Season 4, and especially in Season 5, of these sort of recap-y, montage-y things. Mm-hmm. I loved this one. Yeah. I thought this was great. I felt like there was maybe too much in the show, but this does such a great job of, like, it goes from puppy love in Season 1, and Season 2. Well, and puppy love is based on adolescent hormones, and this is all new, and, you know, it's like a natural human, this is what we do, this is how the species continues. Sure. But it grows into, it grows into that, because he had every chance to be terrified of her and change his mind. And instead, he's just like, I'm in. Yeah. Please, don't do this. Well, and it's, again, it turns into a really strong character arc. Mm-hmm. I love you. What I like about this first... Such a great bit of performance from both of them there. Yeah. The way most of my relationships ended, I got yanked into space. Consider where she came from. In the lab, with Papa, that it was very conditional. It was very rewards-based. If you do what we say, you will be given love and affection and be made to feel special. If you do not, you will be harshly punished, and you will be excluded and ostracized. You can't be you. You are only loved and safe if you are who we want you to be. Right. And then with Hopper, it was a similar thing. The motive was completely different, but it was a similar thing. Hopper loved her no matter what. Well, and he had strong rules to protect her. Right. But, you know, as a kid with very limited real-world experience, she doesn't necessarily understand that completely. And then you've got Lucas, who is terrified of her. I mean, you've got all sorts of people who've got expectations for her. And Mike, since day one, is how you are, who you are, no notes. Right. Yeah, he was dishonest. He had to wrestle with his insecurities. He was scared of Hopper. Like, it was never a perfect relationship. And it's not supposed to be, because no relationships are, especially with kids who are just figuring things out. But what's healthy and beautiful is he gives her safety and belonging so that she can be who she A, wants to be, and B, do what she needs to do. And that is solid. Also, we talk about this in our Stranger Things and Healthy Masculinity episode. He is not at all intimidated by her being amazing. He never tries to hold, he does feel insecure about it, but he never uses that as an excuse to try and hold her back, which is what a lot of, sadly, men do when they're with amazing women. Yeah. As talked about in our Crazy Rich Asians episode. Oh my gosh. We've got so much, it's an embarrassment of riches. We've been doing this show for so long, guys. We've said everything there is to say. We're done now. Oh my gosh, please don't. That's it, that's the end of the show. This is our livelihood. This is our livelihood, I lied. Like, subscribe, and hit the bell so that we can keep doing this and we can afford food. And you have to turn on the thing that says all. All notifications. Guys, you are missing our episodes. They're not showing up in your feed. It's because YouTube, who we are grateful for, but also, come on, is screwing with the knobs. Just watch us. Don't be using algorithms. Let us tell you what to watch. Bitch. Wow, that went in two different but equally dark and weird places. And then Max and Lucas are our healthiest relationship. They're a great relationship. Let's talk about Max and Lucas, yay. Healthiest relationship on the show that doesn't end in somebody getting disemboweled by dogs. But they broke up so many times. How can this be the healthiest relationship? Dump his ass. Well, my answer for that is, one, they're 13 and 14 years old, and two, I'm not ranking these just on how they start, but where they end up. Sure. Yes, Max has an avoidant attachment style, as discussed in our Max episode. I'm telling you guys, we go to town for you. She's got that because of her trauma, has a hard time sticking around. She pushes him away over and over and over again. But when Lucas consistently demonstrates that he is there for her, that he loves and accepts her, that he is safe and committed, she decides to trust. She decides to let him in, and they build something that is, I think of all the relationships on the show, who's going to be together at the 20th high school reunion? Who's still going to be together? These two. He's like, I'm so sick of this song. So sick of this damn song. Okay, you can speak to this more than I can, because you're an actual filmmaker. But so many things have to come together for something to work. That scene as written, it feels strongly written, and it is, but it's also strongly performed, because it could be poorly performed and feel soap operatic and melodramatic. Absolutely. This is the kind of flashy acting that people get acclaimed for, right? Like, oh, it's such this big, emotional, powerful scene. Honestly, this is the kind of stuff that is, it's not easier to do. It's very hard because you have to do this take after take, and you're just going to get wrung out emotionally. But it's not hard to get yourself up to a fever pitch. Yeah. Like that. Especially when you have so much history with the character. And that's what makes this scene work. Actors playing the characters have all of their history and backstory, and they've been making this show for 10 years, and they're pouring all of that into this one scene, and you feel the weight of all of that coming from them. And that's what makes a good actor, is you feel what they're feeling. And it sums up an entire relationship. Yeah. I think what speaks to you about why they're the highest-ranked relationship in the show is because you feel that weight of, Lucas has been committed. You know, back in season three, done some kind of stupid teenager ----. So funny, though. Since the middle of season three, he's given up on the stupid teenager ----, and he's just been a supportive good guy. Utterly devoted. It's not just about getting lucky and finding the right person. It's also about making a choice. Right. And listen, sometimes relationships don't work, and sometimes they shouldn't work. Sure. But the ones that do, it's not just because you found the right person. It's because you chose to stay devoted. She was under for a year. Yeah. And he is a teenage boy. It's Hawkins. There's not a lot of other options, but there are other options. He stayed by that bedside, and he played that damn song a million times trying to get her to come back. So sick of running up that hill, man. And the thing about romantic love and sexual love and this type of companionate love that we're seeing in these romances is that's all like an extra layer, but what's underneath it is just like any other love. It's, I care about your safety. I care about your well-being. I want to be someone you can count on and rely on. I'm here for you. And he is that for her. She is that for him. And he helps her to heal by being this steady presence. And she helps him to grow the hell up because she holds such a strong line of not putting up with any bullshit that he's got to shape up or he's going to lose her. And so he chooses to shape up. They make all the right choices, and I love this couple. For it to be love and not just attraction or affection or attachment, but to actually be love. It's the act of love, right? It's all the work that you put into it. It's safety, it's belonging, it's trust. And also, all you need is love. When we look at, for example, like Nancy and Jonathan, okay, they needed more than love for the romantic relationship to work, but to give each other belonging and stability and safety, all they needed was love. And they continue to give it to each other. It's just not romantic anymore. Sure, they're going to keep working on Jonathan's cannibal movie. Oh my gosh. So until next time. So what I was telling you about the Winnebago and the six little nuggets, all of it was true. But there's something else. You were there. Something I've been dreaming about too. Yeah, what's that? Two orders of breadsticks. I don't know what Enzo puts on them, but there's like some kind of seasoning. It's just like, it's so good. So I'm getting two orders of breadsticks. And watch Stranger Things. This show is partially brought to you by our patrons over on Patreon who get extended Director's Cuts episodes. This one's very long. People with names like this name. Rowans. Jonathan Strelow. Snowden Jackson. Nabil Andra. And Olivia. Thanks, Olivia. I assume you're just a pop star with just one name. Olivia.