Digging Deeper Conversations in Fundamental Investing

All right. Thanks, everyone. In the interest of time, we're going to go very quick with introductions and then dive right into the conversation. I first want to thank all the panelists. I've known this group for a long time, decade plus for, I think, all of you, and it's really a privilege to be up here. Some of the best investors in the industry today who have volunteered their time to share their ideas with all of us. So maybe real quick, Andrew, and then we'll down the line. Quick introduction, please. I'm Andrew Bellis. I manage General Equity Holdings, founded in 2017. We're a long, short, concentrated investor based in New York. Eduardo Marquez from Potential Partners. We manage about $2 billion in a long, short strategy. Not so much concentrated and very much mid-cap oriented. David Rosen, Rubrik Capital. We are a deep value fund, and we also dabble in distress. And this is our 10th year. John Lennon, Pleasant Lake Partners. Also 10th year. We have an equity long, short hedge fund, a private equity drawdown structure, and then a multi-manager investment platform as well. All right. I'm going to start with Dave, because you said you're a deep value investor, doesn't feel like that type of market. Can you just talk about what it's like? What are you doing? Share an idea with all of us. Sure. So, I mean, it is a lonely thing to be a deep value investor. And I'll tell you what, I guess it also does create opportunity. I mean, if you just think about the world that we live in right now, most of the volume and the capital has gone to like quants, macro funds, and pods. And almost all of those strategies require momentum as a component. And when you see stocks that go down meaningfully, I mean, that's otherwise known as visual volatility. There are literally no buyers. So if I want to buy a stock, I can go out and I can be 50% of the volume, and the stock will still go down 10%. That must be fun. So I, yeah, I literally, I can buy all the stock all the time. So within that context, I'm going to pitch quickly an idea that meets that criterion. So just by way of background, we're big fans of a company called Viatris, ticker symbols VTRS. It is a legacy generic drug company. 35% of the business is generic drugs. The remaining 65% are branded generics and especially pharmaceuticals. The company is going to grow low to mid single digits. It trades at seven times current year earnings, six times forward earnings. Of that earnings is 100% converted to cash flow. 50% of it gets returned to shareholders in the form of dividends or buyback. And the remaining 50% they use on M&A. And what's fascinating about Viatris is they went and they acquired a pipeline. And that pipeline that they acquired was coming from a company called Idorsia. The ticker symbol is I-D-I-A space S-W. And Idorsia had some liquidity issues and they were forced to sell these assets. And the two assets they sold were a product called Seletogrel and Cineramide. Seletogrel is literally like an EpiPen for somebody who has a heart attack. And it effectively stops the heart attack from happening. And Cineramide is a lupus drug. These are both prospectively blockbuster indications. And they were sold. And it's why we think actually Viatris is going to be more than a double of the next 12 months. These products, they're going to read out in the next six to nine months. But as we dove into Viatris, we spent a little time trying to understand Idorsia. And what Idorsia did is they took these drugs and they took another drug that they owned called Trivio, which is an approved product that they have actually not launched yet. And they put it into an SPV. And they took basically debt off their balance sheet, put it into this SPV vehicle. And really, if any of these things hit, if either one of these drugs hit, or if they're able to sell that other drug, they pay off the debt and the remaining value will flow to Idorsia. So that was interesting. But the more that we dug into Idorsia, we were like surprised by the incremental asset they have. And they have a product called Qvivic. And Qvivic is a drug for insomnia. But unlike normal drugs for insomnia that cause drowsiness, this one has no drowsy side effects. Like you actually are very wakeful. And the drug sells like hotcakes in China and in Europe. But it has a problem in the United States, because when it was approved in 2023, it was scheduled. And the reason why, this is called an orexin antagonist. And it was something that hadn't been approved before. And the FDA basically said, listen, since we don't know if it's addictive or not, we're going to schedule it and we'll find out and come back to us. So now that they've had hundreds of thousands of patients on it, they want to come back and get it descheduled. And the problem with the scheduling is if you're a doctor, and you're going to give a drug to a patient, if there's any risk of it being abused, big problem. But also another problem is if you actually want to prescribe and get an updated prescription, you have to go to the doctor each time. It can't just be manually done. Again, huge thresholds for actually getting for this drug to actually get to the blockbuster level that it should be. So what recently happened is another company called Contessa got sold for $6.3 billion. Contessa has a very similar drug, except it's an orexin agonist. So it handles narcolepsy. But what was really exciting to people was they realized that these orexins, the dysregulation is oftentimes an impact of people who have ADHD and autism. So they're buying it because they think that this drug will work for those indications. Well, turns out Edorsia just ran a trial for Q-Vivic in pediatrics, and in ADHD, and autism. And they've already come out and they've said that the trial was successful. It hits that CIG. But oftentimes with these companies, they don't want to actually just give you all the data. They want to do it in a conference, or they want to do it in a journal. So nobody knows the details behind it. And as a result, nobody is valuing this. To the extent that these studies come out, and all of a sudden they're favorable for all these indications. And on top of that, remember, they gave this to pediatrics, and the safety data came out, and it was great. There was no issues with abuse. They've given that data to the FDA. So the bottom line is, the stock is a $4 Swiss franc stock. We actually think that if they get, they're running a trial also for the wakefulness indication that they have overseas. To the extent that it gets rescheduled at a lower level, or descheduled, and they get that wakefulness in the label, we think that that's an incremental $22 a share, or 26 bucks. To the extent that they actually, this data, which we know is good, for autism, ADHD, and PEDS works out, and any of these things in the SPV, that's an incremental $16 a share. So it's one of these things that they, it's just, and again, we own like, within like three weeks, we bought like 10% of the company. So we actually think that the upside is 42 Swiss francs, versus the four today, or a 10 bagger, if all these things hit. Love 10 baggers. I didn't understand most of that, except for, it makes you drowsy. But I love 10X. You should start with, I have a $4 stock that's going to 40. Then people might have listened to a defalutator. Yeah, no, but I love all the pharma talk. And so, Andrew, I'm sure you've got a 10 bagger. Or something close to it. Yeah, so I've been spending time on e-commerce in the last six or 12 months. As the AI onslaught has come through, I think some babies have been thrown out with the bathwater. If you're an e-commerce company with proprietary product, proprietary data, vast physical infrastructure, you know, AI may be, you may be a significant beneficiary of AI, rather than, you know, simply surviving. So in that vein, I'll pitch Carvana to the group, which- Long or short? Long. Okay, just want to put it out there, make sure we know what side we're getting. So Carvana is the largest online retailer of used cars in the country. It buys and sells cars from consumers, delivers to their doorstep in a day or two. No haggle, low price, great value proposition to the consumer. The thesis is, it's a big market. It's a great team. Big moats, wide moats, growing really fast at a reasonable price. I think the stock's going to go up a lot. I think that probably a number of people in the audience may be familiar with the story. So I figure I'll just mention a couple of things that make it unique, in my opinion. The first is the rarity of what Carvana is. There are three characteristics that Carvana has, which I think it's incredibly rare to find in a single company. One is that it's the biggest company in the industry. It's the most profitable company in the industry. And yet it still only has 1% market share. So those three things in a single company is incredibly rare. And the reason for it is because the addressable market is so vast. It's a trillion dollars and there's 40,000 players in it. It's very fragmented. The second observation I would make is that usually it's very difficult to project long-term, fast growth for any company with precision. Carvana makes it a little easier because the nature of Carvana's purchases, the biggest driver of them is word of mouth. Consumers love buying from Carvana. They generally refer their purchase out to 10 other friends and say what a great purchase it was. Typically, a company will see referrals hit their revenue in the year in which the referral happened. But the average consumer in the US buys a used car every seven years. So 2026 revenue, the seeds were sown for that in 2021, 2022, 2023. And similarly, the seeds are being sown now for Carvana's revenue in 2029, 2020, 2030, 2031. The last interesting point on Carvana that I would make is that Carvana underwrites loans to consumers who purchase their cars, like the rest of the industry, to about 90% of their consumers. Structurally, Carvana's loans are advantaged relative to competitor loans. And the reason for it is there are two reasons. One is behavioral. So Carvana sells its loans to investors, the same investors year after year. So they're structurally incentivized to underwrite conservatively relative to a used car salesman whose main job is just to sell the car, regardless of whether or not you can pay the loan off. But the second reason is that because Carvana's apples to apples car that they sell is worth $500 to $1,000 more to the lender than their competitors. And the reason for it is because of their scale. They process about a million cars a year. This is relative to a used car lot that has 200 cars in the back. So when they recondition a car, it usually means that that car is worth $500 or $1,000 more. And so if there's a credit event and the consumer can't pay back the loan, the lender repossesses the car and it's worth that much more. So there are a couple of tidbits that I think make Carvana a pretty special company. I think, you know, the stocks can go up a lot. How much? I want to, we double, triple? So the company, I think, will grow north of 30% for a long time. They have certain markets that are, you know, mid to high single digit penetrated. And today the company as a whole is only one and a half percent penetrated. Stock trades at around 20 times pre-tax next year's free cash flow. So this is going to compound for a long time. I don't know if it's a 10 bagger in two years, but it could be a 10 bagger in five or 10. All right, Eduardo, we, we, we were chatting a bunch of stuff. I know you have a variety of things you've been looking at. I'm curious to hear what's grabbing your attention today. Yeah, this is, this is a really odd time to actually be a fundamental investor because we're trying to like reconcile the fact that we believe that there's something large, this new industrial revolution, this AI paradigm that is changing the way that we should approach valuations for stocks. But at the same time, we're trying to stay truthful to principles of margin of safety, et cetera. And it's been hard. I mean, in an S&P, we were just running the numbers the other day where about 23% of the S&P today is semiconductor companies and optical companies, you know, this sort of hardware centric world and where every AI play is either hardware or capital goods companies. It's hard for you not to treat the opportunity as a cyclical. And as a cyclical, even if you believe in AI, valuations look really full. And so what we've been going is that we're sort of rummaging in odd bits and ends of the world and trying to find value opportunities in the space. And I think Korea really stands out as, as the place where we find most value. The, the, the example that I think is most wide known in sort of the Western world is the valuation discrepancy between Micron and SK Hynix, whereby you can buy Micron at 10 times earnings or SK Hynix at six-ish. And, and these are 2026 earnings and this is actually converting into free cash flow and these companies will be massive cash gushers for the next, at least the next two or three years. But there are all sorts of convoluted ways to actually find, reach out for, for, for sort of the crack cocaine of Korea value investing. And, and I think we're there, we're sort of abusing of it at the moment. The one that, you know, and, and this is mostly there, there, there are two ways to actually abuse of Korea valuation discrepancies. One is to go for preferred shares. So these are non-voting shares that traded massive discounts to common. And another way is to actually look at holding companies. So I'll give you a few examples of what we're involved with. Obviously the, I think John is also familiar with SK Square, which is a parent company to SK Hynix. And that's a very clear setup whereby you can effectively buy SK Hynix at a 47% discount. And the holding company is actually promising to close that discount through buybacks and dividend payments. And so this is something that doesn't exist elsewhere in the world. But, but there are others. I think the one we're most excited about recently is a company called Samsung Life. And this is specially convoluted. Samsung Life is, is like the name says, at first glance, just a regular insurance company that does life and health insurance in Korea. But it turns out that it's actually the holding company through which the Lee family controls about 10% of Samsung Electronics. And obviously it's Samsung Electronics is the company that just reached a trillion dollar market cap. It's a DRAM and NAND powerhouse. It makes the phones we see in the televisions, et cetera. And so that business today, you know, Samsung Electronics trades for about seven times current year earnings. And, and that's actually excluding about half of their memory. I'm sorry, half of their, um, uh, microprocessing business is in fact a foundry sort of like the Intel or the TSMC business that today is operating at zero margin. And so if only they can fix that, we can have like a Intel like boom to, to Samsung Electronics. And, and my point is that owning Samsung Electronics through the life insurance company gets you to a massive discount. And how massive, obviously like this is a, this is a bit of like a Berkshire Hathaway question, you know, you're owning an insurance company and you're trading the underlying parts. But in this case, the easiest way to see this is that, um, if you just mark to market the Samsung Electronics shares that, that the life company owns, you're buying life at 0.48, you know, a little under 50% of its book value. And, and if you just take the dividends that Samsung is going to produce next year and run them through the net income of, of the life insurance company, you're buying it at about four times earnings. And so this is how powerful these discounts are. And they've existed forever. And, uh, our thought process is that there's now finally this alignment of stars whereby the, the, the trade balance is favorable for Korea. The investor inflow is actually arriving from, from, from foreigners in, as opposed to, you know, crazy retail degenerate traders actually moving money to, to buy magnificent seven stocks here. Actually, that money is now moving back in and we're seeing support from the government entities through programs such as the value up program, uh, which is actually sort of forcing, uh, large Korean companies to review their governance protocols and, and, uh, effectively allow for buybacks and dividends, just trying to mirror the experience that happened in Japan. So I think this is happening very fast. And, you know, it was only last month that, um, interactive brokers open Korea for us retail investors to trade. And so we're still very early in this, in this opportunity of just formalizing Korea. You know, it's a market that is, uh, today, you know, larger than, than the Canadian stock exchange in terms of market capitalization. The Korean GDP is equivalent to the Japanese GDP. And yet we treat it as it was still in the Asia crisis. And so I think that as the market is maturing very quickly and this is creating the opportunity. All right. Thanks Eduardo. I'm going to turn to John and before you, I know we just were catching up. You just spent time in Korea, I think Hong Kong, Asia for several weeks. Do you have a similar thought? Are you finding stuff that's of interest in the region, um, that obviously would love to hear your idea? Yeah, I mean, it's wild, right? Like, um, we're just in Korea and it, it, it's not that it's about the size or just, you know, larger than Canada. It's that it like just no offense to the Canadians in the office, you know, audience, but like it just eclipsed, you know, Canada and the, the world is almost coming to Korea. You know, they're leaders in defense and, you know, in, in shipbuilding and in memory. And if you believe in a multipolar world or when there's going to be, you know, regional rearmament, um, certainly if you believe in AI, it's just a wild, you know, it's amazing. I mean, I think, um, we, we met with a bunch of former Samsung employees when we were there and they were jealous of the Hynix employees because Hynix redistributes 10% of the operating profit and employee bonuses. Uh, Samsung is now doing the same thing. So there's going to be like a 40 billion on our math. It was like 36, $37 billion tailwind in bonuses to Korea, you know, this year, which is like a mid single digits percent of the GDP or something just based on, um, the, the bonuses for those two businesses. And if you look at the actual operating profit, like on consensus numbers and certainly even more so on ours for, for next year, um, you know, Nvidia is the third most profitable company in the world. Hynix is number two. Samsung is number one. And obviously people don't think about it. So we're involved in all these things. It's hard not to be, um, you know, you're not going to get Dave Rosen interested in charts that look like these ones, but if they're, if they're single digit earnings, multiples growing hundreds of percent, buying back stock, you know, it's hard not to be involved. Um, and, but I think the spillover effects to the rest of Korea and where we spend a lot of time, the consumer there could be just massive and unprecedented. We'll see. Maybe as we're saying this, it's the very, you know, it's the very top and you guys get to, you know, turn around and flip and, you know, find some things to be short, but it's a very, it was a very powerful, uh, you know, research trip. How about, um, the whole panel, you know, focuses on contrarian out of favor, but I, we were chatting, give us a, uh, really out of consensus, non-obvious, uh, name that you like at the moment. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I, I jotted down a few names. The one I'm going to mention one that's not maybe so out of consensus and you can press me for more and I'll say it quickly, like, you know, and I'm going to mention this one because the founder was just speaking. I didn't get to do primary research behind stage, but look, you know, everything that is perceived not to benefit from AI is in a factor basket. That's getting destroyed. Reddit shares are down almost 50% from the highs. Um, you know, sometimes when we approach investing on the long side, we think about the thing we'd be the, the scared us to be short, just behaviorally. And it would be at the very top of my list. I think, um, that the, the total posts and comments on, on, on Reddit have, have grown from like 24 billion in 4Q to 25 billion this quarter. Um, there is a, probably a behavioral inflection that will occur in the back half of this year where the licensing agreements that they have with Google, um, and, you know, at least with open AI, you know, will be repriced. Our work suggests they could reprice on an apples to apples basis at like five or six X. And then there will be a massive shift at that moment in perception. At the same time, Reddit is in a, you know, in a, you know, in, in, in a lawsuit with Anthropic, you know, the outcome of that will be either great for Reddit or amazing for Reddit. Um, you know, you can only choose one and, and, uh, and at the same time they're monetizing, right? Uh, met as our poos, like 70 Reddits is in the low twenties. We have them growing revenues over 50% earnings over 75%. And it's like 14 times our next year earnings number closer to 10 times looking out to 2028. If all of a sudden this gets put in an AI winning basket, it's, you know, between a double and triple, you know, from here. So that one's, that one's pretty interesting to us. And in the ostensibly not so contrarian historically, but more recently a bit more contrarian. Is there, I have not, is there high short interest? Is it still a battleground stock or high, high, single digits to low double digits, short interest, but just, you know, look at the chart and what happens on the days when, you know, pick a memeing, you know, uh, AI stock, what, any, anything that is perceived like AI loser in, in a software or internet basket does, you know, definitely starting to be. You got me thinking. So, so one of the things that we've seen, and it's not just AI losers, it is literally when the AI stuff going up of retail investors are engaged in like the meme, everything else in the market, it's becomes a source of funds. So one of the things that we, we know, you know, one of the questions that we had recently was, you know, after this Iran war, as oil prices went up, how would companies respond with to be able to pass it through? How would the earnings? And there was a lot of nervousness around, you know, the performance. And a lot of these stocks went down fairly meaningfully because there was fear. While many companies, consumer facing companies actually reported good numbers and provided good guidance. And despite that, none of them went up, right? And it was a function of the fact that people don't really care. They want to, they, they, they want to deploy capital in AI. So I think there's this universe of ideas now that have more recently gotten de-risked where you can deploy reasonable, a significant amount of capital. All right. I'm going to ask, anyone can do it. Brave enough to talk about a short idea. We don't really get that in the afternoon. For those of you, I encourage you to come in the morning because we have a short panel where we force the issue. But I'm happy to go again. Oh, we have a volunteer. Oh, just to say, hey, like I'm trying to sell my wares here, man. All right. Let's hear it. Come on. I got 80 different short ideas. And so I'm happy. Pick one. I'll give you three minutes for as many as you want. Let me just take the, I got, I got my soapbox here. So this is, this is my one opportunity to actually speak my mind. Let's just say that I think that so far the market has been very concentrated in trying to find these AI, but basically everything today has the valence of an AI loser in the winner. And, and I think that what's, what's, what's clear in my mind is that, and this has been repeated, I'm not the first to come up with this line, but it's easier to spot the losers than the winners, right? I think this was on the third point letter. And, and, and, and I think what, what is attractive right now, and also just, just really, really hard is that the best short ideas are actually high quality compounding great businesses. And this is, this is my contention is that, hey, like if you believe in a future of AI, then you really have to be watching out for service level deflation, something that is not visible today in the near term earnings. And I think that a lot of this is reflective of the performance of some of these stocks over the first quarter. And, and that's, you know, people are scratching their heads because great companies are actually printing good numbers and their stocks are actually going down. And, and again, and, and so what I think is happening is that this question of the perpetuity value is slowly spreading away from just the software land and the, the business process outsourcing companies and the call centers. This is now spreading to all of sort of the, the knowledge economy. And so with that in mind, I think that there are a couple of things that, that again, like amazing businesses that stand out as shorts for me. One is the whole sort of online classified space, in particular, the ones, you know, they're, we're short a company for instance, called REA in Australia. And this is, this is a real estate online classifieds. And do I see today a clear threat of AI to the business of online classifieds? The answer is no. Going back to your point about e-commerce, right? Like they're, they're clearly e-commerce winners in this space. But if I fast forward the models that we see today to a world two or three years down the road, is it possible that agentic AI will be good enough? And, and is it in the, is it even in the roadmap of companies like OpenAI to try to monetize their models by actually figuring out a way to interject in the process of buying and replace what we consider to be like this amazing supply demand, the marketplace mode? And I think the answer is yes. I mean, if, if you run a search today in Manhattan for a three bedroom apartment, you will find that if you run it on OpenAI, the results are good enough. And the listings are actually not all coming from Zillow. They're actually coming directly from Compass and everyone else. And so the ability for these, that growth algorithm of, of the, these online classifieds to just push price 5% a year forever, even if there's no audience growth, I think that, that business is broken. And so REA stands out because it's actually the highest multiple stock. And, and I think that what we'll find across these knowledge companies is that there will be a chasm whereby they're going to go from like high multiple forever compounding stories to value opportunities. And once they arrive there, then they're probably great for cash flow yield stories that we should be long, but there is a big hole, you know. Okay. So one of the things earlier this, earlier this year, I think there was a recognition that the, the AI winners would be companies that were heavily, very high asset intensity. What was it? There was an acronym for it. I just forgot now. Right. But so the concept was anything that had low capital intensity could get disintermediated. The ones with high capital intensity, you use AI and you actually improve your margins. Right. But all of a sudden now, when everyone talks about AI, no one's thinking about that. It's just the semiconductor companies, right? Like, so it has gotten so narrowly focused. You have to be a Neo cloud, right? And so the question is, when does that come back? Right. Do we really want to buy the ones that actually don't, are, are, are asset light that may trade at a really good multiple, but literally can get completely disintermediated? Probably the answer is maybe even not, right? Maybe those aren't the buys, but, but why, why is nobody buying the other stuff now? Yes. The true AI winner will be a mediocre business that will just be able to expand a low EBITDA margin by two percentage points that will make a massive boom. And which, which John, I suppose that this is part of your, your thesis too, around some of the, let's call it value plays that you're involved with on the retail and consumer name, right? The margin opportunity from AI. Yeah. I mean, if something has a, you know, a 50% margin that goes to 52, that's a 4%, you know, but if it's 50 bips and goes to two and a half percent, that's 400%. So there's some interesting things. And there's a lot of public to private transitions that we are slowly attempting to instantiate where enacting better management with good old fashioned, I would say, you know, strategic and operational thoughtfulness and AI tools can just lead to mitigating the downside risk. And in some cases, you know, like you guys, you can make your 10 bagger, you know, also. So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot that's very interesting there for sure. And that doesn't seem to have happened yet, right? Like the public market. I mean, you just talked about doing it in a private setting. How come the public markets haven't done that? Sorry, I know you're the moderator. I'm just here to watch like everyone else. I just roll you guys over. We don't know the answer, which is why over the past few years, we've, we've slowly tried to be without, you know, to be sure, you know, we are not traditional activists. We only engage in, you know, conversation with management when we're genuine, strategically interested, but because we don't know the answer, we've just said, Hey, you know, if there's an opportunity to, to buy a, you know, 20 to 50 cent dollar where the dollar is going to grow a lot, let's, let's get after it. Yeah. And that's a lot more, the, the point on Reddit was right. That human content can, can be more valuable because of the amplifying impact. Right. But obviously, you know, buying ostensible ---- co retailers is a lot more contrarian than that. I'm sure I'm the only, I'm even lonelier than you. And on that note, actually we've, I separate direction, but relates to AI human capital. We've chatted about it. I think a lot of people in the audience, whether you're starting your career in the industry, they, all of you have been doing this for a really long time that you all look awesome and young and wonderful, but it's a different world. Like it is an AI world for our business. I think most of the people here are involved in investing one way or another. What's your advice for a 25 year old getting started in our industry in this crazy AI world? We've chatted various, John, maybe you want to start with your thoughts. Andrew, we'd love to hear yours. Anyone else? Yeah. I have a, I have a derivation of the same idea, which is like, and it may sound contrarian, but I think, I think the human element will be all the more important. You know, when I was in my twenties, some people may be offended by this, you know, but I found the industry to be extremely distasteful. And, you know, I almost left it and I would rather had a fistfight in the street with most of the people who are participants in our industry than share my investment ideas, you know, with them. And by the way, if you don't think the industry is full of douchebags, then you should probably look in the mirror, all of you in the crowd. Wow, look at the time. Thank you, guys. But, right. But around that time, it's interesting because the East Rock guys are involved with, you know, with Soane. Someone there said to me, you should view things more with a spirit of abundance. And I was like, you know, what the hell is that, right? Like I've had to claw with my fingernails for every inch of this opportunity. And then around the time I launched my firm, you know, he might not be like me referencing him, but someone I admire, Feroze Dewan, who was interestingly Andrew's partner, said, hey, you know, I just remember this moment where he said, men, wait to see what it feels like to make money with your friends. Like it's, you know, and, and, and, you know, 10 years later, right? I'm sitting on the stage. Andrew's like a, you know, he even looks like a Zen Buddha, but he's like calm in the face of the storm. And I don't know if he's helped me make money. He's definitely prevented me from losing money with his balance and kind of voice of reason. You know, Eduardo, you know, speaking of looking, you know, you had no gray, he had no gray hair when he launched his firm even five years ago, pretty much. And there's a lot of silver there, but he's the best. He's the best short seller I know. And anytime I want to look at something alongside, I pose it to him to get a counter to it. You know, Dave. Had dreadlocks. But Dave's on my Mount Rushmore of living investors, you know, you know, and he's done it in a lot of different ways over the course of his career. But when we launched a multi-tiered business model, he was the person who gave me the most valuable advice for being the best fiduciary I could, you know, for my LPs. So, you know, you know, I think you can be maniacal and competitive, but also have wonderful virtuous cycle relationships. And I wish I knew that earlier in my career, you know. That was beautiful. All right. And on that, thank you, guys. Thank you.