Mothers in the Boardroom: Combining Children and Career

Do you like it? Yes, exactly. Perfect. There was a car. Does that bother you? Do I look at you? Yes. One from Lucie. Okay. I'm Franzi Kuhner. I founded Torben, Lucie und die Gelbe Gefahr and I'm on the boards of Freenet and Württembergische Versicherung. I'm Dr. Stephanie Werner and I'm Head of Financial Reporting at Daimler Mobility. I'm Dr. Kati Ernst and I'm Co-Founder and Co-Managing Director of Uschi. I'm CEO of the Vector Foundation. I'm Managing Director of Tunsch Group. Head of Marketing for a health insurance company. I have over 150 employees and two wonderful children. I'm 39 and have three children. I have two children. I have five children. I have a daughter. I have two children. I have a daughter and the next one's on the way. I always knew I'd be a working mom. When I told them I was pregnant, they said, are you trying to ruin us? How many more children do you want? Of course, you'll have to be replaced. I didn't take a single day of parental leave. We threaten existing structures, disrupt them and break the rules. Quitting my job wasn't an option. I was worried about being judged, that people would say I didn't put my child first. That took courage. I get up very early, around 5 a.m., because I really need to exercise. And the only way for me to incorporate exercise into my schedule is to head out in the morning. Otherwise, something always ends up getting in the way. I go for a jog. That's how I get to work. That's usually a bit before six. I usually run around five or six kilometers. Then I feel better, ready for whatever my work day will bring. I feel grounded. I've thought about what needs doing, set priorities, planned what my day will look like. I'm Mandy Mangler. I'm head of gynecology and obstetrics at the Augusta Victoria Hospital in Berlin, and I have five children. I start work very early and leave earlier in the afternoon than most normal department chairs. Otherwise, I wouldn't see my children at all. When it comes to equality, we've made real strides. At 20 or 25, young women have a feeling of equality. And by and large, that's true. And that's good. Then it all changes. They have children, and suddenly find themselves thrown back to the kind of role they saw their mothers or grandmothers take on, which they never had imagined for themselves. I want to change the rules of the game, so it's easier for my daughters. Being a full-time housewife, that's an idea I can't really identify with. I love being at home with my daughter, but not 100%. I was 26 when I took my first management job. I was the youngest on the team. It was a relatively diverse team, but there were more men than women. I always knew I wanted children, but it was still a long way off at that point. I'm Sandra. I'm a manager for an energy business, which has a team of 46 people. My daughter is two and a half. I never wanted to put the brakes on my career to have a family. I always knew I would do both at once and see how it goes. I get up just before six and wake the children. We get the school bags ready the night before. My husband makes the sandwiches and I get the children out of bed. I'm Karin Gallas. I am senior vice president of HR at Deutsche Telekom and I have four children. Hello. Lovely to hear your voice. I just wanted to check that everything worked out this morning. Just one thing. Can you take a look? The daycare rang and wants to set up a meeting about Kilian's start. That's my routine. When I arrive, I call to make sure that everything went smoothly. My son has a math test today. He'll do great. He's a little math whiz. I handle Mondays and Fridays. My husband does Wednesdays and Thursdays. Tuesdays we have a sitter so that we can both work late. I've been working here since 2004. I'm ambitious, I've got determination, but also skill. My early thirties were super stressful because I thought I had to do it all one step at a time. Then I realized, no, your childbearing years are too short for that so you have to find a different way to combine things. I'll ask our colleagues to work with the wheel. You can record that. I've already said that yesterday. I want children, I want a career, and I can make it work. I always knew I'd be a working mom. A child and a career. I always knew I'd be a working mom. I knew I wanted both. A woman of around 30 or so who's in the running for a leadership role always has that drawback where the bosses think she might have kids and disappear. I became a mother late, at almost 40. Before that, I did sometimes think, hmm, now's not a good time. When we decided to have a child, I was in middle management. When I became pregnant, I first went to my boss, my direct supervisor, to talk about how we wanted to proceed. I hoped he'd be happy for me and that we'd be on the same page. That I'd come back afterwards and pick up where we left off. But instead, his reply was, well, of course she'll be replaced. When a woman has a baby, her priorities shift and she might not want to continue in this role. I was pretty shocked. I was surprised by how my co-founders responded to the news. I knew they wouldn't be thrilled. But when I told them I was pregnant, they said, what, are you trying to ruin us? Especially towards the end of my pregnancy, when I had that big belly. Sitting there in those management meetings with a lot of men, I was surprised to see how awkward some of the men were. It was like they thought, well, she'll go on leave and won't come back. I wasn't invited to meetings, even when they had to do with my work. From the start, I knew I wanted to stay in my job. The question was, how do we get from I'm gone to I'm coming back? In the end, I think everyone, from my CIO to the Director of Human Resources to the Head of the Work Council, were all involved. My suggestion was to interview an external interim manager, which is what we did, and that's how we covered it. Of course, I also asked my husband, how do we want to handle it? And his question was, how do you want to handle it? He said it was up to me. He said, stay at home for as long as you feel you need to be there for our child. But I know you. Think it over carefully and decide. That's all he said. I was free to make my own decision with his full support. We never considered switching roles. But I'd go back to work right away and he stays at home. Why not? Because I didn't want that. Lots of surveys ask men why they don't take parental leave or a longer leave. They say I can't, there's no one to replace me. But somehow, that's never true for women. My male colleagues would spend two months on parental leave, they'd come back, and a short time later they'd get a promotion. They never had to wonder, is it a good time or not? When it comes to men's and women's careers, children are the dividing line. Women stay home for a while and men continue to work and then, of course, get ahead of women. Even if they're not more qualified, they have more experience because they don't lose time. We always tried to share parental leave or have my husband take some leave. With my last baby, I was only out for two months. It was hard because I was a ready department head. I brought my baby to the hospital with me for quite a while. One of my friends was retired and she came to the hospital to take care of the baby. I'd go to surgery, come back to nurse. But I've heard plenty of stories of people in medicine, especially men, who are discriminated against if they take leave, including clear threats of dismissal. When my partner told his boss about taking parental leave, they were outraged. Why didn't I take parental leave? Good question. I thought I didn't need it. I wanted to keep working, as strange as that sounds. I had my baby and a week later I felt good. It was my first, which is a bit more difficult. But then I put her in a baby carrier and took her everywhere. To the accountant, the lawyer, the warehouse with the trucks. My supervisor contacted me during leave and said, Karin, we're having a departmental meeting. Do you want to come? I'd love to, but I'd have to bring my son. She said, no problem. I thought that took courage 11 years ago. And that's how I found myself at work with a three-month-old. I still felt like I was being seen, heard. I had a say in things. That was inspiring and encouraging. Toward the end of my pregnancy, I shadowed for a week and then took the results to the board of directors. The board, how we work, why we work. Just to show he is someone who loves her children, but also loves to work and make a difference. I do need a bit of flexibility, because my schedule isn't entirely under my control. There's other players to consider, of course. We have a family calendar with all of our appointments, personal and professional. So my husband can immediately see, ah, Karin is on a business trip. She has an appointment. She's working late. And he does the same. I try to be as organised as possible, to make it easier to deal with the unexpected. Daycare is closed. A child gets sick. You can't plan for everything. That's life. But this gives me time to respond well. I wanted to get in touch. You were so nice to talk to me on the train yesterday about getting used to the cramps. I'll look at my appointment calendar again. How much time would you say we need? Okay, let's do it this way, Amelie. If that's okay for you, I'll get in touch again tomorrow, in the course of the day, and I'll make you two or three appointments. Then you can see if that's okay. Balancing a career and family doesn't mean you neglect one of them. Quite the opposite. You spend a lot of time and energy orchestrating the perfect setup. Sometimes you want or need to spend more time with your child. And something explodes at work that I have to deal with. That's when I often reach my limit. When both parents work full-time, and you have two children, and one child gets sick, who goes? And when both you and your husband say you can't leave, I don't want to say there'd be a big argument, but I'm taking out your role, and of course I had to fight for space for what I do. Say you're in the middle of a meeting, and you see a call coming in from daycare or school. You step out, and you're told your son had a fall on the playground. That's the moment when you're responsible for 20 or 30 co-workers at the meeting, and also for your son. It's hard to have to say I can't pick up my child, I'm in a meeting. I don't know, 50 kilometers away. I'm not just five minutes away. One challenge is organizing your workday so that you have time to take care of your children. But when? You're at work all day, and the meetings take place in the afternoon. The department head meetings were between 5 and 7 p.m. when I first took my post here. I used to sit there and think, I have to go home. I don't have time for casual chit-chat. As much as I'd love to, I can't. The rules of the game are made by and for men. By men who are older, who either don't have children, or take care of, usually the wife. They don't have to worry about getting dinner on the table or filling the fridge. It's 20 to 3. I've done most of my work, so I'll go home at 3 or 4, depending, to take care of my children. The question was, was there an alternative to returning to work full time, which, for me, was out of the question. Sandra knew she wanted to be at home part-time in the beginning, to care for Alia, and to be honest, I didn't ask myself that same question, but I think it would have been really difficult in my position. We're not quite that progressive, because while we're talking about combining work and family for women, the conversation isn't quite as far along when it comes to men. Why not? I don't know. I'd say because of history, traditional roles. My company doesn't have a single top manager who works part-time. Maybe they don't think they can make it work. When a woman has a baby, regardless of whether she's a manager, the company usually asks her, how do you want to handle things when you come back? Part-time? How much time? Nobody does that with men. It would be good if we all dared to think about what we really want. That requires a change in thinking across the board. Women and families would have to think about what their ideal scenario would be, and employers would have to have the courage to try something new. I share my department management position with a tandem partner. Our basic model is that we each work 30 hours a week, so 75% of a regular full-time job. That's the best decision I ever made, because it's what's made it possible to combine work and family. We still had to figure out our childcare, and that wasn't so easy. That was one of the hurdles at the beginning. We applied to 18 different daycares, I think. It's really nuts. We had to work on various portals, and it felt like we had to turn our lives inside out. That did put a damper on things. We still didn't have a spot when the baby arrived. The first daycare spot we had for Alea was mornings only, though they said that could change. In Germany right now, you're lucky to get any spot at all. You can't even really ask yourself, what is the place like? Is it right for me and my child? Back then, there were no daycare spots at all in Ostfildern or in Stuttgart for children under three. I'd agreed to work 30 hours a week and had no daycare. So I looked around for childcare, and then I met two other women in the new subdivision where we lived in the same situation. We teamed up and set up a private corporation and hired a childcare worker. In the end, we were 14 women in all. That was the first childcare for under three-year-olds in Ostfildern. But we kept hitting roadblocks. You can't even find a property where you can set up a daycare. I've seen how important it is to have reliable childcare. That's truly key. We even decided where to live based on that. We first looked for a daycare have a family reunion. At first, I did wonder if I was asking too much of her. She was very little when she started daycare. She was grown. Sometimes I did feel guilty when I felt like I had missed something important. For example, when he learned how to ride his balance bike and he was pretty good. And I wasn't there. These are the moments when you realize there are limits to the compatibility of career and family. In those moments, I'm sad or angry. There were times when I wondered whether I was doing the right thing. Times when I felt torn that I couldn't concentrate on one thing. Feeling guilty is just part When my daughter was a teenager, she said to me, you're never here anyways. It's moments like that that make you think. I think that when you notice it's working and going well and it's also good for me, I think she senses that and it works out. When I pick her up after daycare, I spend about four hours with her, sometimes maybe half an hour less, but round about four hours. We spend the rest of the day together doing something fun, whatever we're up for. Okay? If there's a problem, the children come first. That's very important. As long as they know that, they're fine. Then you can say, no, sorry, right now I have to work. But if you really need something, I'm here for you. My daughter handles it pretty well. Of course, there are times when she needs me more and demands more. But basically, it's completely normal for Mama to go to work. He knows I'm there for him. It's sweet. In the evening, he comes and says, Mama, I know you're always there for me. And I say, you can come to me with anything. Of course, not always or anytime, but we do stay with anything. In my private life, I did sometimes get the sense people thought, what's going on here? Don't you love your child? Things like that. When we were trying to set up a daycare, we also went to the local council. It became a real political issue. Some older men on the council said to us, if you're going to have children, stay home and take care of them. And my reply was, well, I didn't have these children all by myself. Later, in the new daycare, they said, how can you raise a child if you can't even be flexible about appointments? It was a bit strange to hear. Even with a job like this, I wasn't considered capable of raising a child. In my new role, I'll also be on the supervisory board. That will be new for me. Every new job is its own journey. You never really know what it will entail, and every move upward like that also challenges you. She was on parental leave for a number of months, and then came back to the company in a higher position with very different duties. A lot more responsibility for staffing, a lot more international responsibility. What I can do is provide insight into the work at the top level from a variety of different perspectives. In her new role on the supervisory board, I can answer questions and get her on her way. It's a real opportunity, but you have to approach it with respect, even a bit of humility. As part of top management, you're in a position of influence. So does that mean less time for your family? To an extent, sure. But at the end of the day, I have to make sure it all gets done. As a manager, as a mother, you're often asked, how do you manage it all with the children? Fathers are never asked that. Sometimes I say, what about my husband? He was also constantly on the road, but no one ever called him and asked, what about your children? Even today, when I say I'm traveling for work or working on an exciting project, people often ask me, what about your child? And then I say, I usually just lock her in the basement with some food. As parents, we're a team. My husband often hears things like, well, with that woman on your side, with her ambitions, you're going to have to take a back seat. Those kinds of comments devalue men too. And on the other side, I also get comments like, Karin, what if your child's crying and you're not there? My child has a father too. The comments are just directed at me, but also at my husband and how we organize our family. There's always judgment. What makes a good mother, a good father, good parents? And as a mother, you do feel guilty, especially at first. Once my daughter said, Mama, why am I always the last one to get picked up from daycare? I had to explain, your parents both enjoy working and it gives us the life we have. I did worry that people would judge me and say that I didn't put my children first, that I put my own needs on the same level as theirs. That took courage. It helps to have women friends and working mothers to talk to. And when you hear that women who work less and spend more time at home have their own problems, you realize you just have to do what's right for you. Women always try to find that happy medium between family and work. And that's success when we manage to bring the two sides into harmony. Then we can sleep well at night. Okay. This is just the final check, looking through e-mails, the agenda for tomorrow. Did I miss anything? But it looks good. Working mothers are always short on time. They deal with the urgent matters rather than the important ones. Having a network is essential for your career. It gives you support and encouragement, inspiration and ideas for problem solving. You don't have to do it all on your own. My flight was booked for 7.30 tomorrow morning, but my husband has to be at the office at 8 tomorrow morning. So, I'm flying home tonight. My children are part of the package. I've grown and matured so much because of them. They've made me who I am. My children aren't an obstacle to my career. I've grown along with my children and also with my career. My goal is to make decisions deliberately. For example, I like to hire mothers because I know that they face the same challenges that I do. They're very busy and they have to get their work done by the end of the day. So often, they're more efficient. I'll take another look at my emails and if everything's under control, I'll go home. I'm planning to bake something with the children this evening. If it came down to it, I'd rather hire a woman, even if she's slightly less qualified on paper. People grow with their responsibilities and my choice would be to support someone who really needs that support in our society. Our society needs people who support women, who support mothers, until we reach equality. And we're a long way from that, unfortunately. Education starts with role models. If we don't serve as role models, how will our daughters know what's possible? My greatest hope is that one day we'll have mothers in the workforce and it will be totally normalized for them to say from time to time, sorry, I have to leave this meeting because I have to go pick up my daughter or my son. But even more than that, I'd like to hear men say that too. I've always said I'm not joining a supervisory board just for status, to be the token woman for the public, just for fun. I'm doing this for my daughter so that it will be different for her. My life is richer for it. I can't imagine my life without my children or my job. It makes my life more complete having both. Solely caring for the children wouldn't work for me. I need the challenge. My life is definitely enriched and it makes me happy. What more is there? That's how it should be. Yes, that's true.