Sam Ryder on Fame, Ego & Why Dolly Parton Is the Supreme Being

Hello, lovely How To Fail listeners and viewers. This is just to let you know that if you want a peek behind the curtain to find out the last time that Kate Winslet spoke to Leo, or how much sex Vogue Williams considers to be normal, then you can listen to my subscriber series. Just follow the link in the show notes and we will see you there. When the band would start going downhill, because I was always seemingly joining a band as they were on the decline, I'd jump on the next one. The fact that you found it, the scales are balanced forever. That is so profound. You actually made me well up. Have you seen Ed Sheeran since? We've never met. Welcome to How To Fail. And for those that are new around here, this is the podcast where I talk to my guests about three failures in their life and what they've learned along the way. Please do follow this podcast because it really helps other people find us. And please do share it with all of your friends and family members and even people you don't like. We're not fussy. Thank you so much for being here. My guest today is a British singer-songwriter who shot to international fame in 2022 when he represented the UK at the Eurovision Song Contest, placing second only to Ukraine. It was our highest scoring entry in 24 years, and the man who sang and co-wrote it was none other than Sam Ryder. He was born and raised in Essex, the son of a carpenter and a dentist, and his first job was delivering papers for the Essex Chronicle. From an early age, Ryder loved music. Some of his earliest memories are of singing along to Freddie Mercury in his dad's car. He spent several years as a wedding singer until Covid hit and lockdown restrictions made public performances impossible. So he turned to TikTok, uploading music covers. He gained a huge following and eventually a record deal. His singing caught the attention of artists such as Elton John, Sia, Justin Bieber and Alicia Keys, and in 2022 his debut album debuted at number one in the UK album charts. After two Brit Award nominations, he's now releasing White Lies, the first single from his second album, which he's been hard at work on for most of last year. I've been playing music for a long time, mostly to empty rooms, Ryder has said about his rise to fame. That's the reality for so many people, absolutely grafting, carrying on regardless, with a sort of blind ambition, believing that you'll make it one day and it might not be tomorrow. Sam Ryder, welcome to How To Fail. Mate, thank you so much for having me. I'm blown away. Thank you. Oh, I'm blown away to have you here. How did that make you feel hearing that? A bit emotional, actually. So lovely, just remembering how much my parents have supported me from delivering papers around, well, you can't even call it a village where I grew up, and then working the drive through, then going to work with my dad and just, yeah, all the sort of self-belief you have to have in yourself through those years. Is it true that you helped your dad build Wembley Stadium? Yes, yeah, we did a very small amount of it. We put some floors down in one of the hospitality rooms. Some of those doors were hung by me and they probably swing like saloon doors now and I've had so much planed off the top and bottom because they're wonky. I'm sure that's not true. Tell me about being a wedding singer and those years spent performing in that context. What do you think those years taught you? So I'd worked with my dad for a bit in carpentry and my dad, bless him, he was just like, wanted to help me out, make sure that I could earn some money and buy some guitars and chase music, basically. We had a lot of disagreements growing up and it instilled in me a real ethic for hard work and you get what you put in in this world and in this life. But he would let me go and play shows or go on tour with bands because that was my dream and he knew that carpentry was a way that I could learn skills, put some money in the bank and go and see the world and chase, run down the dream, like Tom Petty would say. So I'd play in punk bands and metal bands because that was my music growing up. It still is now. Iron Maiden are my favorite band on the planet and they taught me so much about perseverance and just melodic sensibility in music and far more. So I did that for a lot of years, again, playing to no one. That's when you said in your introduction, that's the time that it was just playing around Europe, around Russia, around South America, around the US. I played all over the place with different bands. I always say I was like a flea on a bunch of dying dogs, just sort of jumping off them at the right time to be on the next one. And when the band would start going downhill, because I was always seemingly joining a band as they were on the decline, I'd jump on the next one until I made a conscious effort to really rethink my approach to music and what I was doing it for, which we can get into later. But that's when I took a break from chasing that same kind of feedback loop. And then I started singing at weddings. And that's where I learned the most about music. And you could say that's the, in terms of cool anecdotes and stories, there's far more when you're playing in some random underground club in Russia than there is playing at an Essex whitewashed wedding venue in the countryside. But that's where I learned everything I feel about singing and being a vocalist and stuff like that. And it was one of the things that you learned that you had to do it for the love of it, because so often at weddings, people are drunk and not paying attention. You are anonymous. You are meat in the room. One of the first weddings that I did, I was very much in a space, you know, when you're starting out, your ego is an uncontrollable sort of state, because it needs to be. You have to tell yourself, oh, I'm special, I'll make it one day, and all this sort of narrative that replays in your mind, because it's kind of like your superpower. You've got nothing else. You need to have some kind of like overextended belief in yourself. And I remember singing at a wedding, and I had this run. I think it was in like a Gloria Gaynor song that we were covering or something like that. I remember thinking in my head, I absolutely nailed that. They'll love that. And I opened my eyes and no one cared. No one batted an eyelid. And it was then, it was like a very hard lesson immediately that like, no one cares. You have to do this because you love it and do not expect anything else from anyone. It needs to be something that feeds your spirit. And music and singing cannot be a thing that you hope to gain something from it. You cannot take anything from it because it's given you everything already, because music or any kind of work that we chase and we give our lives to is purpose. And from that is fulfillment. So to ask for anything from it as currency in return is folly. And you have to simply be grateful that it exists in your life because there are numerous people around the planet who go through their entire lifespan without knowing what their spark is and what their skill is and what their thing that lights them up in this world is. So the fact that you found it, the scales are balanced forever. That is so profound. You've actually made me well up because you've spoken directly to my soul there. I so appreciate that. I can't explain. You have been at work in the studio on your second album. Was it nice getting back in the studio after the fame, the success, everything, the Brit Award nominations? How did it feel? When everything kicked off, I was in a state of just abundance of things happening that I could never have dreamt of, like beyond my wildest imaginings. But there comes a price with that because every day you're like, it's like giving a dog a treat every day. Every hour of every day because you get used to it and it can be very taxing if you haven't got your spiritual armament in check. And so that was something I very much knew that I had to employ and shore up. So there was a time right after the Emmy Awards where we were nominated and we lost to Ed Sheeran, which is going to come up again later. I remember going back to my hotel room in Los Angeles just very much having a talk with myself. This has been a wonderful, I think, three-year stint of just things that I, like I said, couldn't have imagined happening and realizing dreams and successes alongside an amazing team. But it's time to go into the studio and do the work because there are a lot of voices around telling me, don't ever go away. Don't ever be quiet because the way that we consume media now, that's your death sentence. To ever just take time for the work and not be out in the public eye would be essentially giving it all up. And I hated that, and not to use that word lightly, but I despised that thought process and this thing that puts so much pressure on anyone, regardless of what industry you're in or anything, just as a human being, being told that and even worse, believing it is awful. So I think the best way to rebel against that is to do it because creating something that you feel is valuable takes time and it is labor intensive. Good food takes time to cook and you have to at some point just get stuck in. I'm going to talk about some of the songs that I've been lucky enough to hear from it a bit later. I feel there's been a shift in your sound and I can't put my finger on it. So will you describe the second album's sound? I call the genre frontier soul because for me, I'm a big fan of cinema as well as music and Tarantino's work, for example, or all the old westerns that me and granddad would watch over and over again because we'd forgotten what ones we'd seen and stuff like that. All of that is in the music as well. There's a dusty kind of desert-y soul that exists in the soundscape, whether it's in the guitars or even just the way that we've captured it on old tape machines and all of this thing, it takes time. It's not quick. Even using machines like that is labor intensive and it's methodical and it makes you think about what you're doing, kind of being present in the process of doing it, if that makes sense. It makes total sense. Let's get on to your failures. Your first one is losing at a Battle of the Bands to support Ed Sheeran in 2019. Yes. Okay, so tell us what happened. At this moment in time, I was singing at weddings but also running a vegan juice bar, a healthy food establishment with my partner, Lois. It was so amazing. We did that for three years and we were so healthy, I can't explain. I made all the juices. I'd go and play at weddings and then instead of going home to bed afterwards, because you don't really leave them until 1.30 or 2 in the morning, I'd go straight to the shop so people would see me. The milkman would drive past. We had this lovely big bay window and the milkman would go past and I'd be in a suit cutting watermelons up because I'd get all the cold-pressed juice made, which again, it's very methodical. It takes ages. It's not like the ones where you throw apples in the... It's like slow little corkscrew and it's almost like mantra when you're making these juices. I'd do that. It'd take hours and then Lois would come in and serve the food. She's amazing at dealing with a busy cafe. I can't bear it. There would be times if I was on my own in the shop, people would want to come in and I'd say, I'm sorry we're closed because I felt I just couldn't do it. That's interesting. I just can't do it. Are you an introvert? No, because I love people. I love saying hello to anyone and everyone. I love chatting, but there's something in me when people are waiting for something from me. Even to make them a peanut butter bagel with a juice, I'd be freaking out. I've always been like that. You can never go on Celebrity MasterChef. No, never. I'd do that. This was the time in my life that that was going on. When I'd finish, I'd go back to my studio and I'd just make records and songs and write and go and play little shows in London as and when they came up. This opportunity came up to get involved in this battle of the bands. I was laughing because I was like, I haven't been involved in a battle of the bands since I was probably 16 years old. Here I am in my mid-twenties, I think, doing it again. In a way, if you get in your head, it felt like a backward step, but I was like, you know what? I feel like I could do this in the right way now. The prize was, to me at that time, so amazing to get the chance to open up for Ed Sheeran. It was huge, something just mad. I did this and I got on stage and I played my set and I came off stage and I was really happy with that performance. Whatever happens, happens. Of course, that's a lie that we all tell ourselves because you're like, I want to win. I didn't win, but it felt, for whatever reason, it felt like the final nail in the coffin. I don't know why, because I remember standing out. It was a really lovely clear night and the stars were out. The gig was at this small cafe in Ipswich. I was with my partner, Lois, and we were just stood by and I was so sad. Sad's not the word, but I just felt like, oh, you know when you hear people, when they talk to their grandkids or their nieces and nephews when they're older, like, that was my last gig or my last time trying and that's when I really threw in the towel or something like that. It felt like that could have been that moment for me. It just felt very poignant. I was like, okay, well, I gave it my best shot and no one can say otherwise because I gave everything in the chase and the pursuit of this dream and maybe it wasn't for me and life holds something else for me. I've learned so much and I'll carry on singing, but I'll just sing for people getting married and that will be my life and what a lovely life it still would have been. There's nothing terrible about it by any means, but it still felt like sad in that way. I remember Lois really comforting me and saying and holding my hands and we both looked up to the stars. I know this is going to sound so wafty, but there's something about a lovely clear night. For millennia, we've all done it, like humans have done it. You look up and it feels like your problems are tiny, but you are still part of something majestic and all you have to do is look up and feel that way and we both said, I'm ready. I'm ready for this to happen and I invite it into my life and I swear to whatever's out there that I'll perform it with the most grace I can and that's what we both said. Oh my god, that's extraordinary. Well, it really did feel that way. So how important has Lois been through all of this? Oh mate, I can't put into words. The amazing thing and it's similar actually listening to the Danny Dyer episode of this show because Danny has been with his partner for a long time and I remember him saying that she never really wanted that life, but she came along for the ride in the most supportive and loving way and Lois is the same. She never wanted us to have, she loved it when I was juicing vegetables, going to sing at weddings and coming home and maybe thought I would get into gardening one day and we'd have a lovely quiet life and she's been so incredible because she knows that this has been such a dream of mine for as long as I can remember and she was willing to strap herself on to this runaway train of upheaval almost. I've seen what this does to people that don't have someone like Lois in their life. It derails everything and it isn't worth the cost. It just isn't. I've seen the look in people's eyes where you can almost see that there is a glaze and just this far away stare in a false happiness and a false content with this amazing gilded thing that they've been gifted, but it's not worth it. It's not real. It's totally fake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So from that moment, which is 2019, then Covid happens and the lockdowns hit, so it's not that long after you've stood there under the night sky, the stars, and you've said, I invite this in, we are so ready. Yeah. What was the first TikTok video you made? I think, I can't remember the exact one because it's all a bit convoluted, but I remember my friend, like my dear friend and Lois's friend, Derek in Nashville, who's actually now part of my management team, which is so lovely. I've known him for 12 years and he was one of the first people that sort of believed in the music I was making and has been there since day one, really. He just told me, look, get on TikTok and sing some songs. I have a good feeling about it. And I was like, I don't want to get on TikTok. I saw people dancing and stuff like that. He's like, no, just do it. I've got this feeling. So I was like, okay, cool. Um, I'll do it. And I think one of the first ones that really went off maybe was Sia, maybe singing Sia, or at least it might not have been the first TikTok, but that in my mind, when I look back, I think it was May 15th or something. Cause I, like the date is somewhere etched in my mind. I have remembered it before. I don't remember it but it was around that time, um, that I remember making a sort of a note, like, you know, you put a sort of fold in the page of your life and be like, that's when life changed. And I remember doing that because I was, uh, stirring some pasta. Like it was the lockdown that we had, thankfully it was like Huckleberry Finn, like the out in the countryside, the weather that summer was mad good. Wasn't it? And myself and Lois were living with my parents, my mum and dad, because we'd just bought a house, but it needed to be totally renovated. Um, so me and my dad were like going there when we were allowed to like take ceilings down and stuff like that. But in the meantime, just living with mum and dad and I was singing in my shed. Um, so yeah, I just made this video, put it online and then was just stirring some pasta. We were going to have a little barbecue at the end of the garden all together. It was really lovely memory. And all of a sudden I checked my phone and it would, it just had gone crazy. And, uh, like Sia had tagged me in this post sharing the video and, and not just that, but like saying something is so incredibly kind in the caption that it felt like basically reading between the lines. We're rooting for you and we'll see you when you get here. That's how I read it. And it was so lovely. And yeah, I made a mental note that that's when sort of life changed. And I knew that we'd, we'd crossed a Rubicon that there was no going back from really. Have you seen Ed Sheeran since? We've never met to this day. And there's, um, a reason for that, which I couldn't. You hate him. No, no, no. I love Ed, but there was like, I swore again, the promises I made before getting into this industry that I would never, um, bring up or put, call anyone out that wasn't there to pretend himself, but our reasons behind the scenes that kept us apart. Um, because I know we have wanted to meet each other and now those have been alleviated and the people that were stopping that are not in the picture anymore. Our paths will cross soon. I'm sure because some very close friends of mine that are very close with him, um, always say how similar we are, actually. I can. I don't think it's just the ginger beard. No. But I've heard lovely things. And, um, if he's listening, then Ed, it's a long time coming. Let's chat about music. Yes, Ed. And if you're listening, please do come on How to Fail, because you've said some amazing things about failure. Thanks very much. Yeah. Can we talk about your hair? Are you sick of talking about it? No, not at all. You've got great hair. Mate, thank you so much. And is it the Iron Maiden inspiration? Is that why you decided to grow it? My mum took me to a barber's in Malden High Street when I was young and sort of left me while she went to do the shopping and they cut. And I didn't necessarily have long hair when she dropped me off, but they completely shaved it. And I remember I looked like Dracula. Like my hairline back then, for whatever reason, was doing a bit of a Count vibe. And, um, I remember looking at myself in the mirror and just swear I'm never going to have short hair ever again. I look terrible. Is it true you once dislocated your shoulder when you were washing it? Many times I've dislocated my shoulder. Many times? Yeah, yeah. But that's true. So this one's got a big scar down it where it's been fixed. This one I don't want to fix because the surgery really limits, like, your strength. Once when I come out of the sea from surfing, I was in the shower, like on the beach, and just kind of washing the water out my hair, the sea water out my hair, and my thumb got stuck in a loop of, like, a knot of hair, and then my shoulder dislocated. So I was under this really, you know, like, the showers on the beach, they're like, like, almost like fire hydrants. And, uh, I just didn't know what to do. I was trying to get this out, and I was freezing cold, and it was just, yeah, a calamity of errors. So you've dislocated your shoulders. Should have put that in my list, actually. You've dislocated your shoulders several times, but not always washing your hair. No. That's where I got confused. Okay, let's move on to your second failure. Yes. I can't wait to get into this one, because it sounds really deep. Your second failure, as you put it, is talking openly about being hopeful and having faith, but struggling with it over the past year. I'd realized that every interview that I'd done, and sort of every conversation I'd had with people in the media in the last sort of three years, when it all kind of went to the next level, would always be, um, introduced in a way, and it was so kind, and I really appreciate it, but like, uh, how, how you, like, Sam, you're here, how are you so positive, and thanks for being on the show, or whatever. But what I noticed in myself is that, um, I mentioned this earlier about giving dogs treats. I almost felt like, while it was true, and I can say with my hand on heart, I'm a joyful person, and I thank God I am, and I found happiness in my life, but I never wanted to sell what I was trying to promote, and I was always a lion. I never wanted to cross, but I crossed it, and I can't deny that there was a dopamine kick when someone would say, how are you so positive, because your ego loves that. It's like, yes, I am, aren't I? Like, and then almost you notice that positivity can become a currency, but it's, it isn't worth anything. It's a snake oil, because it's not, um, none of us are one-dimensional human beings, aren't we? We're so many different things, and while I totally believe in, um, not, not bringing and airing your dirty laundry everywhere you go, there is a work face that you put on, but yeah, I felt like perhaps I'd crossed the line of, um, telling myself, like, those white lies that that was me all the time, and I must be that all the time, um, and even you telling me that I'm that makes me even happier, so you're kind of compounding it. Does that make sense? Makes total sense, and it's so interesting, and white lies is the title of your news. Yeah, so that, that's what the song was written about, yeah. For you, it sort of became a kind of brand. That's the thing that you were trying to stay away from. Yeah, exactly. I don't want to build a brand on, on something that I am, because that's the wrong, it feels inherently wrong to me, to do that, because then you're tying yourself to a single dimension. Yes, makes total sense. I also, last week, someone told me this very interesting phrase. She said, I don't believe in positive thinking. I believe in flexible and realistic thinking. Yes. What you're describing is a kind of groundedness. Yeah, it's presentness. Exactly. It's not just kind of, um, like, we can't joke and say, like, golden retriever energy. I totally get that, and it's fun, like, in, like, the meme space, essentially, but it's not real. And it's not you all of the time. No, completely not. Like, I'm, I'm buzzing when I get to do things like this, or, or go out to, I don't know, there was a big F1 event, I'm a massive F1 fan, so of course I'm going to be, like, smiling my head off when I'm there, or there's pictures or anything like that, or there's interviews. I just, I love the sport, and I love music, and I love all these things that I go to, it's because I love them, so of course I'm going to be stoked. But, um, positivity for me isn't this forced happiness at all. It can't be, because, um, that's cloaking emotion. Positivity is finding, uh, groundedness, like you're saying, presentness, state of peace, and you only reach those things, at least I feel I only reach those things through gratitude, and real measured gratitude. And lately something I've been really trying to employ, or talking about prayer, is, um, I used to, in, in prayer, and regardless of what people believe, what you believe, what people watching, um, believe, like, even to not believe in anything is a belief in some way, you know, but, um, for me, it, prayer used to exist like I was asking for something, like, um, whether, like, a destination-based prayer, like, I want this to happen for me, or I want to experience this, but now it's way more rooted in I want to feel peace, and I want to feel like I've reached peace with a state of grace, and however the path looks to reach that feeling, then protect me on that path. Do you know what I mean? I do. How did you get there? Describe what your faith is to you, and where it came from. Uh, well, I was raised Catholic, um, but I can't say I would be completely lying if I said I, like, would know any doctrine, any reading. I couldn't, like, um, read a psalm to you from my head or anything like that, but I just know there's a comfort that I feel when I turn to my spirituality, and it's even saying my spirituality feels convoluted because that's not true. It's like the, that feeling lives within all of us. I truly think that, and I remember back when I was playing in, like, hardcore punk bands, I was at a church in Texas. I can't remember even why I was there, but I was actually at a place in my life where I probably would have hated going to a church because I've had a very, uh, interesting journey when it comes to faith and finding how faith works for me and how I can access that, but, um, I was probably very much a, uh, person sitting in the pews thinking this is complete rubbish, you know, but something was said that in that sermon by the pastor was like, even if the kingdom of heaven isn't real, isn't this a better way to live? And it really struck me that, and I can only, in fact, even just talking to you now, I haven't really thought of that since just this moment, and so that is sitting in my subconscious, I think, of just isn't this a better way to live for me personally. When we started this conversation, you were talking about how you'd had a talk with yourself after not winning the Emmy in a hotel room in LA. Can you tell us more about that? What kind of? That was really rough, actually. Uh, I think no one is without ego. It exists in, in all of us. It's part of us almost that keeps us in check. It's a voice where you can be like, you can challenge it and make sure that it keeps you on the right path that it doesn't, um, ego unchecked is the problem. Yes. You know, um, and gratitude is the force that holds it at bay. And, uh, but I remember being so, um, uh, kind of hurt that we didn't get it because we put so much work into it and it was such a selfish viewpoint that I had then in that hotel room. Uh, and I thought I'd got rid of, that wasn't me. I I'm totally not about that. And popular opinion would say, oh, that's what you, you would have wanted the gold medal. Surely you wanted to win. I never felt that I was like, I love being here. And I know if I've done my best work and I've carried myself to the standard that my family and my loved ones would expect of me, I do not care. About the end result because it's, it's, it's nothing, but that was the first time some in for whatever reason crept past. It felt like, you know, you know, when you see like an action movie and there's a massive, like, I don't know, fight or something, or just for Ray of energy, bullets are flying, everything's going on. And the, the main character is kind of, I don't know, like suave, like suave dodging everything like James Bond style. And then they kind of, the scene dies down and they walk away and then the camera pounds, pans down and he realized, oh, they actually did catch a bullet or something, you know, what in typical like cinema technique. And, um, that's what it felt like. I was like, I felt like I'd carried these, um, ethics and morals and these values with me, but something sort of got through at some point and, uh, tried to steer me off. And that's why I made after that, like it was the circuit breaker. I was like, I don't want to, if I carry on those, that's how it happens. It's how it begins. No one ever, like I said, gets rid of that ego. You just keep it in check. And the less you keep it in check, the more it grows. And, um, that's when I was like, I'm going to go away for a year in the studio, do the spiritual work, do the musical work, do the, the everything work. It's really amazing that you were able to do that within yourself with the help of your faith in this higher power. But so many people would need someone else to step in and say, by the way, it's a seductive drug. I think the whole idea of notoriety and recognition in a public space with whatever industry you're in say that with the Brits was just the other night. Well, it's basically putting everyone from every corner of the industry, whether you're presenters, dancers, musicians, singers, um, design, like designers or creative directors, all in one space looking at other people in their industry and like comparisons, the thief of joy. We all know that. So we're all, the energy there is like super hectic. You can feel it. And, uh, and usually I'd kind of, I didn't like going, but I was also stoked to be there because like I was lucky enough to get a nomination. So I'd sit there and I'd try and just be thankful. And you sit in like trying to just tell yourself over again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Try not to let any of that comparison kicking cause it ruins the night, but it is an effort. But this year I just, I really enjoyed it. I so loved just rooting for people that were winning and seeing them succeed and knowing that other people's, um, successes, aren't your failures. I mean, that's a classic case. We all feel that that's like, um, page one of the how to fail book, I suppose. Um, but also knowing the like, when I do fail now, I'm not, we aren't victims of failure. We are beneficiaries. If anyone listening to this is struggling and by anyone, I mean me with, with that. Well, I'm there with you. You don't fix it. I don't think it's so difficult because obviously, ironically, I've set up this whole podcast about failure and exactly what we're talking about because I still care about where I am in the chart, in the podcast chart. It's so stupid and I don't know how to stop it. Yeah. What advice would you give? I totally get you because even releasing new stuff or being in any facet of the industry, like I keep saying, all of us have metrics that people that we work with are looking at. I found that something that brings me a lot of comfort in knowing that there is a foot you must have in the physical and keeping a foot in the spiritual is vital, but having a team around you that you love and you trust and that you, you would truly do anything for, which I, from spending a short amount of time with you, I feel like you would be that person that a team isn't something in flux. You invite people into your circle who you want to help build up and that you would hope will stay with you for the entire journey. That for me is so important and we've gone to great lengths. People who were deemed no longer valuable in the major label system, when we left that, when those people were let go of, we took them in to build our own thing all together. I say took them, it sounds like stray dogs. It wasn't like that. We needed them more than they needed us. And so we've built that, we've built our own recording studios, our own film studios, everything so that no matter what happens, I can make records with a great team for the rest of my life. And it doesn't matter about chance because everything's been invested into that being a constant. So there's a sort of rebellion there, I think that's needed, but all great things come from like upheaving the furniture. So I think that that is a piece of advice. I totally hear you. And it's so, I really do feel for you, I swear, because I know the feeling. I just do. All of this that you have so eloquently described, is it also partly why I've seen the artwork for White Lies and your face is obscured? Yes. Is there a sort of turning away? Yeah, I'm glad you picked that up. I loved it, by the way. Thank you, mate. So we, myself, Lois and Jack, who is our photographer and videographer, and it's just amazing guy. We went on a trip, basically, to Georgia. So I live half the time in Nashville. We've just moved there. So it's super exciting. Anyway, we stopped at this thrift shop. This place just had a pile of trash out the front of it, which immediately made me excited for what was in there because the stuff on the trash pile was quite good. It's the stuff that they'd sell for way too much money in Nashville center. So I was like, if they're throwing that in the bin, I want to see what I've got. So, but yeah, just looking at the pile of rubbish made me think about the upheaval of the furniture and the pulling the rug out from the past and not discarding it, but just knowing that it was there and it's a time and that life is consistently moving and to stay stuck in the past is what Willie Nelson says, you slow down, you go down. So stay in motion and keep moving. So we took a picture of me running away from it. And I think that that pile of rubbish, it sounds maybe like a bit too much of a diss and I don't mean it as a diss, but is kind of us looking at the world in which we operated in, in the industry for music in the last three years and what we're heading into, which is of course off screen. And we don't know what it is, but it's in some open, lush green field. And it's not, like I said, there's no shade being thrown here to people. It's infrastructure, not the people, because the people have come with us. The people that were let go from their jobs after succeeding every single time, everything that came our way on that project, we pass with flying colours. In short, what do you think the greatest flaw of the music industry as it exists now is? I think it's lack of patience. Anything that's shiny and new, they run towards. And then as soon as something else comes up, they get left in the lurch without being given the time to grow and develop and to do something outstanding. And something that we see as valuable and precious and just magnetic, it's very quickly forgotten about. And that's not because those people aren't patient. It's because the nature of the industry isn't patient, so they can't afford to be patient because their jobs are on the line. Your final failure, which is linked to everything that we've been discussing, is not being around for family and friends so much. Yes. And I'm sure this is a popular one, right? But I very much, over the last few years, have known deep in my mind and my soul that I am living in the golden age of my life. My grandfather is alive. God bless him. And my mum and dad are fit and healthy and able to wind down, not work their fingers to the bone as much anymore. Where my parents didn't know anything about music, they... And I love you, mum. Can they sing? Well, my mum actually doesn't have a bad voice at all. She'll be laughing when she hears it. But she could definitely join like a village choir. That sounds so condescending. That's so damning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she definitely could if she wanted to. And I think she should, because I think singing is just good for everything. But yeah, I hear her sing every now and then. She's got proper like Disney vibrato, you know, when like the birds are kind of like that. But yeah, they didn't know anything about music. They couldn't help me in any way. I had no leg up into the industry whatsoever. And that's tough because so many people do. And I'm not chastising that whatsoever. We don't choose what we're born into. But it's tough when you have no entrance into it. You've got to make your own way. But they did everything they could to find other ways of helping me and my dad allowing me to come to work with him. And then a moment's notice be like, Dad, I need to take Thursday off because there's a gig that could be a really good opportunity for me. It'll be like, no problem. Go and do it. But be in Friday, you know, like so they did everything they could to, you know, they've never they wouldn't walk the mile for me, but they give me the shoes to do it. And so, yeah, like I know very well that I'm in the golden age of my life and that this has all come at a time where there'll be weeks where I can't see anyone because I'm in a different country. And I noticed when I come home, my granddad looking older and, you know, he's 93, almost about to be 93. So it's just a fact of life. It's just happening, you know. And yes, so there's a concern there. But then I just know that they understand at the same time and that they saw me wait until this didn't happen to me till I was gone 30. The amount of perseverance I can't explain when the in like the fabric, the very nature and the fabric of the industry and society when it comes to the arts. If you're a singer, a musician, I remember even years ago, I was like, if you don't make something by, you know, early 20s, just give up, find something else. So to hang in there that long, I couldn't have done it without them. And yeah, I really can't express enough the amount of times that I failed and got knocked back, but found a way to dust myself off and get back and just refuse. I just refuse to not achieve it. It can't happen. I'll do it. Do you want kids? I just I only want to have kids if I can be a good dad. And I don't think I'm in the right space to be a dad as good as my dad was for me. You know what I mean? Because I like my dad is so incredible and everything that if anyone ever says something kind about me and my personality, that I literally hear it as if they're saying to my mom and dad, nice one, because that's why like they're just such amazing people. And my partner as well, like I just without Lois, without my parents, without my sisters, without my granddad and nothing, I wouldn't have turned out in any way. I'd have been just an idiot, you know. So I'm so thankful for them, but I know what it takes to for them to have achieved that, to instill values in myself and my sisters. It takes presence and time and I'm all over the place. There's a song that I've listened to, which will be on your second album, Better Man. Yes. Which is all about being loved by someone who sees you as better than you think you are. Is that about Lois and your family? Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's that, that's like, the lyric is, that's it, actually. You love me like I'm a better man and like better than the one I think I am, you know. And yeah, it's completely about that. Gear change. Who's the most exciting famous person you've met since this wild journey began? Oh, I met Brian Cox at the Oppenheimer. Actor or scientist? Scientist. I would love to meet Brian Cox, the actor as well. But he, in that setting was perfect. Yes. He was so lovely. I met, I meet a lot of people just very much in passing, like Louis Theroux at the Brits the other night. And it's so lovely because they, I've given up a long time ago, letting myself be intimidated to go and say hello to someone. I feel like if someone came up out of the blue that I didn't know to say something nice to me, it would be the, just accepted with, I would be stoked, put it that way. So in my mind now, if there's people that, you know, are quite intimidating characters, I just don't care. If I love their work, I'll, you know, sort of go and say hi to their security and then go and say hello to them and thank you for the work and that I'm a fan because I think it's really nice to say that. And I've met a lot of lovely people through doing that. And Stormzy, for one, you must get him on your show. I'm desperate. That's another one that I'd love to have. He says something great at the Brits actually, read this psalm and just talking about, I think the nature of forgiveness, if I read between the lines, of what he was saying. And that was really lovely. Brian May is a really wonderful character, his wife Anita, so lovely. Have you met Dolly Parton? No, I would love to. I was actually listening to her talking this morning. Sometimes I'm a massive Dolly Parton fan, like the way she's kind of the supreme being, I think, of how to hold yourself in a world where you are very blessed and privileged with what life has given you. I think she's amazing. You should try and get her on your show. I also want Dolly Parton, let's put it out there, let's put it to the universe. Totally, because she, yeah, like, there's amazing things that she'll see, I'm certain she would see how amazing this is. I love it, you were so lovely. I have to say Sam, I could talk to you for hours. It's been a series of quiet and profound revelations, this conversation. I can't thank you enough. And you talk about wanting to be a better man, but for me, you're one of the best, you really are. And I'm so grateful that you've come on How To Fail. It's been amazing. Thank you very much, I appreciate it. I want to go to a thrift shop in Kentucky with you. Yes, yeah, well, anytime. Anytime you're in Nashville, I swear, come and let me know, you're welcome to stay at ours. We've got plenty of room, and it's, if you like a rickety old log cabin in the middle of the trees, it's the vibe. That's exactly what I love. Definitely mean it. If you get your podcast with Dolly, and she won't travel, come and do it at the cabin. It's a deal. Sam Ryder, you've been effortlessly wonderful. You're going to stay for Fading With Friends, but for now, thank you so much for coming on How To Fail. Thank you very much. Appreciate you. Please follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.