Behind The Canvas - S02E02 - Simon Liu Inc.

You know, when we look at artwork, we're hyper-focused on what's on the canvas, that's the whole point. And this series is an attempt to go behind the canvas and showcase all the work, all the creativity, all the artisans that make sure that art exists. And today, we're going behind the canvas, literally, to see what holds it all together. I'm Julian Baumgartner. As a fine art conservator over the past two decades working to preserve artworks, I've been fortunate enough to meet and work with some of the most talented, driven, and interesting people in the arts. And now, I want to take you into their worlds to meet them, hear their stories, and share their passions. So join me as we go behind the canvas. Historically, there has been no more important place for American art than New York. And that's where we are today, in the Brooklyn workshop of Simon Liu. Simon. Yes, hi, Julian. Well, it's a pleasure to finally meet you. I've been working with you for my entire career. It's 26 years, and my father for, I don't know, 15 or 20 before. And this is the first time I've ever actually put a face with a name. So this, for me, is pretty special, because I've been using your supports for my entire career, and they're really one of the highlights of when I get to work on paintings. So I feel like I'm in a really special place. So thank you for having me. Well, thank you for coming. I'm super excited to see... ...behind the canvas. So let's get started, right? We start where? With wood, right? With wood, yeah. You know, we primarily use two species. When your father's time, my time, we had sugar pine, but now there's no longer. Oh, okay. So you have to switch. Eastern white pine. Okay. And basswood is a hardwood, but it's in a soft side. So when you do a stapling or temporary tacking, it's easy to remove the fastener. And I like that. If you use any kind of hardwood and you break it in there, then you have to do some kind of tooth extraction. Tell me about it. I know. It's the bane of my existence. So we're in an office, right? There's no wood here. Well, there's a lot of beautiful wood here, but this is not where it starts, right? Well, let's go downstairs. Okay. Simon, these doors, did you make them? Yeah. This is polyester with fiberglass. So I went to a DuPont company out in Long Island and I saw these, and these were like surplus materials. So I bought a whole bunch of them. And I said, well, these are good material to make a door. And it's two doors. It's a small, like a human-sized door and then a gigantic door. Why is there a bigger door? Because we sometimes deal with large painting that need to go in and out. We have a little studio there that do some kind of... I'm not taking over your job, but we do do a lot of stretching for large pieces. That's so cool. And work on them and, you know, even simple strip lining. Yeah. Yeah. Well, now you're getting into my territory. So let's go see that. Let's go see that wood. All right. So we're headed downstairs. We're heading downstairs. Sometimes it's quite a chore to bring the lumber in because it's on a lower level. Is this, have you always been in this location? No, I've been moving around quite a number of places. At one time we had two buildings. OK. Eventually we got rid of a building and consolidated into this one about eight years ago. So this is the mill shop, right? We have the machinery that cuts the wood, makes the joints. This is where the wood gets turned from raw lumber into profiles and supports, right? For continuous bevel structure, we process it here. Because once we get a plank, we're going to rip them to the width that we need it. Right. All done in-house. And then we're done in-house. But there are other L-shape profile, T-shape profile of structure bar. We have to mill somewhere. Gotcha. So you partner with another mill to make the profile. Those are the big companies that they mill thousands of strips. Gotcha. Gotcha. The difficulty having a business, especially woodworking shop in the city, is how to get rid of the waste. Oh, yeah. So, you know, we have bags and bags of shaving. Nobody wants it, right? Nobody wants it. And then at one time, we did send it to a horse stable. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, eventually... Where's the horse stable in New York? So what kind of wood is this? Well, this is a Pelagian basswood. Okay. Basswood is a hardwood product, but it's on the soft side. Right. Now, we don't use the southern basswood because it's too soft. It's for carving. Okay. Northern basswood is a little hard and they come in a very narrow and short length. So why is it important that it's a soft hardwood? Well, if it's a fillet of hardwood, it's very hard to extract. Let's say if you use staple or tag temporary, it may break into the wood when you try to take the staple off. That's right. I know all about that. Yeah. And also, too, the harder the wood, the harder to make the joint tight. Because if you make it exactly the same, once you put the tenon into the mortise, it doesn't have any room to give. Right. So for a traditional stretcher with a double finger miter joint, it flares out. It doesn't have the ability like a softwood that you can kind of like... So the tuning fork that clamped in. So the wood selection is really important to maintaining the stability of the stretcher and its longevity. It's not just any, you know, wood isn't wood isn't wood. The specific species, the specific hardness matters so that the stretcher lasts 100, 200 years. So all of this wood we're seeing here, the basswood and the pine, these are all going to become supports for artists? Not just for artists, it's for conservators that require a thinner profile. Oh, so picky people like me who make you jump through hoops. We have conservators say, OK, I want this huge, gigantic stretcher. Oh, the original stretcher is only three quarters inch thick or one inch thick. It's like, OK, so we have to consider... Right, so all of this wood will eventually be behind some canvas? Yes. That's really cool. So Simon, I mentioned earlier that my father bought stretchers from you for many years before I came on the scene. And I've been buying from you for as long as I've been doing this. When did you actually start making stretchers? Well, to make that kind of conservation type of stretcher, it's a little bit later than... I tried to build something for myself with some friends when I was studying my MFA program in Pratt Institute. So you were in Pratt and you were studying to be an artist. And you, like most artists, needed something and so you made it. Well, because I wasn't satisfied with what I buy in the store. OK, so it didn't meet your standards and so you decided that you just had to do it yourself. Right, right. OK. At that time, I was mainly building strainer stretchers. And so then that turned into a business where you started... It actually turned into a business because I also had engineering background so that I tried to do a lot of research. Gotcha. And trying to figure out, OK, what is a traditional stretcher, how the joinery works, the angle of the key, the type of thickness of the mortise and tenon to maximize the strength of your joinery. So you really, you fell down a rabbit hole with supports, right? A lot of research, a lot of time devoted to it. And then out of it, you woke up one day and said, all right, I have a company. That's my passion. This is my life. That's really cool. So Simon, there's a little yellow Volkswagen up in the office. There's a little model and there's pictures all over that. I have to ask what that's about. Well, when I didn't have a delivery van, you know, I would put my product on top of the Volkswagen Beetle. Oh no. I would drive around, you know, to do a delivery and maybe put up some little poster, you know, in Soho on the lamppost. Well, I can't endorse putting things on top of a Volkswagen Beetle, but it seemed to have worked for you. So I won't second guess. Well, it's hard because the top is in the dome shape. Yeah. So I have to make a little, like a rack. Oh my God. So, but sometimes it's a challenge when you try to put a large piece of stretched canvas on it, you know, without being, you know, blown off by a wind, by the wind or something, you know, like. Oh, it's making me, I don't want to hear any more about that. Let's see how we're going to do the profile in the house. Okay. Yeah. After you. L-shaped profile. Yeah. All right. So this is the L-shaped profile that you guys have? Correct. All right. So I, Simon, I know why this is important. I use these all the time when I'm conserving artworks, million dollar paintings, or just sentimental paintings. I understand why this is a really high quality product, but why is this different than what, you know, an artist could find in their art supply store? Well, if you have a rectangular piece of lumber and you create that profile, like a lip and then going down. And that lip is to keep the back of the canvas off of this. Right. So I take one step further because I used to have the mill with that profile in one piece of wood. So one piece of wood. Always curled up. And sometimes it's twisted. Gotcha. So you end up with a lot of lumber that is not usable. Okay. So there's waste and the precision isn't there. And maybe on a little stretcher, that doesn't matter so much. But as you get bigger. Oh, you still have a little stretcher that you buy in the store that, you know, sometimes people come to me, it's like they put it on the flat top. Even one foot square. So even small ones are really affected by that process. Of course, yes. Okay. So then you decided to do something different, which is a tongue and groove. Right. And it's two pieces of wood. Right. Is this more labor intensive? Of course. Yeah. So we have a big company who mill that to our specification. Okay. We have three or four different profiles. And so I'm looking down this piece of wood and it is, I mean, it is relatively straight. There is almost no deflection here. Well, it's long. That's why I think, you know, when you lift it up, you know, the weight itself, but when you look at it like this, it's pretty straight. And so this is what makes for a really good support. It's straight. It's true. It's not going to twist. It's not going to get all wonky. So then from this big stock here, how does it actually get turned into a support? For a traditional stretcher, you do a straight cut to the exact length that you want. Now our accuracy up to like 30 seconds an inch. And you do that here. You cut everything downstairs here. You want to show me? Yeah. The precision and care that Simon creates throughout each step of the process, from wood selection to profile creation and the complex joinery is impressive. For any errors will not only compromise the integrity of the support, but will ripple forward to the final piece of art, jeopardizing the magic on the canvas. At the heart of every stretcher is the double fingered miter joint, a floating joint without glue or nails that allows the expansion of the stretcher through the use of keys that get tapped into a mortise. We have some joineries already cut. Oh yeah, I recognize this. So this is the kind of stretcher that has a very thin profile. Usually it's for you guys, you know, conserving old work that came from a very poorly made thin profile stretcher. So before we finish this, first of all, we have to dimension the stock. So after the stock has been milled to your specifications and it's ready to be turned into a support, you then have to cut in the double fingered miter joint. Got that right? Okay, double fingered miter joint. And that's this complicated joint right here that holds the support together. And that, I take, happens on these machines? Yes. Okay. The joint is a mirror joint. It's almost like a pinwheel. Oh, I see. So you have the left side and the right side, but they're identical. When you flip it over, it's exactly the same. Right. So you have to index it right in the center and then cut your key slot. Right. On this side. Which is this, which enables this support. And for this end here, you've got your key slot on the other side. Right. So when you put it together, it fits perfectly. It's a small detail. There was one time my guy cut like the left hand joint, the right hand joint, and he forgot about it. It's a hundred pieces and you can't put it together because they hit each other. Right. So this isn't done by hand. This is done on this fancy, scary looking machine. And this is a woodworking machine, you said? Yeah, it's a woodworking machine. You can buy an end milling machine, but usually the capacity is small. Oh, this is a more industrial shaper with a sliding table. Gotcha. So the position is where the slider, the table is, so that you don't have any kind of rocking motion. Okay, I see. So first step is that machine over there. This guy? So this is another shaper, but it's got a different blade on here of different tooling. And this looks like it's just one blade. Right. But you can't buy it in a hardware store. What they call it is a slotter. You cut the slot. Oh, basically this is where the... Yeah, exactly. Now, when I start making traditional stretcher, before your dad's time, later on, you know, I start making a stretcher for him. And it's very hard to compromise to find a good angle. So when you put your key in there, when you expand the piece, that it's not overly extend quickly. Yeah. Or you don't want it to be so slow that when your key is starting to protrude out from the end here. Or it's the wrong fit. It's the wrong fit. And then my life just got really difficult, because I had to take it all apart and start all over again. The angle of my key, I found out like 16 and a half, 17 degrees. Is that a trade secret? We have to blur that out? No, that's okay. But... Better than everybody does it the right way. Yeah. Well, also too, the slot ends where exactly the width of the stretcher bar. Right here. So a lot of time you buy spot these stretcher bar, and they end up with a big hole in the back there. I know. Yeah. Or sometimes they cut this off so that you can fit that in there, because the slot was too small. Right. So they're having to compensate for doing a bad job on it. Yeah. Okay. So after this is cut, first of all, this is a mirror joint. So you cut this on this side like this, and you have to flip it over this way. Then you have to flip it over this way, right? Otherwise... If you turn it this way, then you're going to have to end up with this sad story that I told you about... Okay. So this cuts the key slot. That's right. And then after this is done, then it goes to that one, to that machine. All right. So what does this guy do? So this was set in 17 degree to the vertical, 90 degree to the table. This is 45 degree to it. Right. Right now, this machine is shaped off and cut off the top and the bottom and create a miter joint. Right. So it creates this miter joint and leaves the tenon. So that's why sometimes when conservants say, I need a stretcher four inches long, the stretcher bar, I say, well, that's a little dangerous. You know, I'm like, you know, guy to cut it. But I did make a stretcher that is so small that, you know, is also keyable. But sometimes you convince them. I know, you've done that to me. You're a strainer, you know? That's okay. You don't need to key things out. But if you need to, we can make it for you. But that's one of the really interesting things, because I know that as a conservator, I'm really picky and I'm always contacting you and saying, I need this, I need that, this thickness, that thickness. And, you know, sometimes I have in my head the idea of what I think is going to work. And maybe artists, too. They think, oh, well, I need this and that. And then we contact you and you say, no, that's wrong. Do it this way. Because you're the expert. You know exactly how the wood is going to react. You know what's the best for the support. And having a resource like that for me is really invaluable. Because while I think I know everything, the truth is, I don't. And that's why I come to you. Because you know this stuff. And you'll tell me, no, no, no, Julian, that's too thin of a stretcher bar. You need to add, it needs to be a little bit thicker. Or have you thought about this profile? Because it would fit this painting better. So having a resource that not only can make them with a high degree of precision, but understands what they're making and why is invaluable. And for conservators, obviously, that's a no-brainer. But I can see for artists, too, to be able to reach out to Simon Liu Incorporated and say, hey, this is what I want to do. Help me design a support that's going to achieve that. That's something you just can't get when you go to an art store. The difficulty, too, try to make the joint that is good enough for tightness and at the same time, dimensionally accurate. Let me point out what the secret is. Okay, tell me. I want to know. So when you do the cutting here, you have to cut the miter to exactly where the corner of the stock. There's no gap. There is no gap. It is as precise as it can be. Which means that when they go together, you have an almost like a furniture joint. Probably better than most furniture joints. Because there's not much sanding to adjust it. Otherwise, you lose your dimension. So precision matters. So let's say if you get a store-bought stretcher, sometimes they cut it too much. Then you got a shorter stretcher bar. I know, and those go in the garbage. And you sticks it out, and then you get a bigger dimension that you cannot fit your painting in. Right. Okay, so after we've cut the double finger miter joint, I'll get it. After we've cut the double finger miter joint, then what happened? Because I'm noticing that this is still just a S4S, right? So it's surface four sides, 90 degrees. But this we can't use to make a stretcher yet. Not yet. All right, so what happens to this to get it to a stretcher? Well, that depends on you need crossbar or not, right? So you need to cut the mortise over there. Right, and that could cut the slot for the crossbar to go in. Correct. And then what happens to it? You cut the continuous bevel on one side. And that's not here. It's over there. Let's go. It's amazing for me to think of how many thousands of paintings, from old masters to future history makers, depend on the humble sticks of wood transformed into everlasting supports that Simon creates. Okay, so the continuous bevel creates that lip, and that's done here with this gigantic looking blade. This looks like a beast. 16-inch blade that can cut some things. When our bar is four and a half inches. Wow. Yeah. Wide. That's a big... If you sometime have a big mural, Yeah. require a traditional stretcher, that's what we have to use. Four to four and a half inches deep. And so this is on an angle. Right. And then it just gets... We try to limit it to about five degree. Not so much. It's because you could start cutting into the key slot and compromise the strength. Right. Or sometime you get into a problem with cutting it too close to the mortise. So it's a delicate balance. Yeah. Because you need that bevel, but too much and it starts weakening the support. So the machine... So these get run through this machine. Right. And then we get that bevel, which creates that lip. And then we get us... Then we're done, right? Finished stretcher. Well, you still have to assemble it and do a lot of adjustment and sanding before we take it apart and send it to you. Oh, okay. All right. So Simon, there is wood everywhere. How many stretchers do you think you make a year? Oh, I think I lost count. How many do you think you've made in your life then? Oh, I don't know. Thousands, hundreds of thousands. Hundreds of thousands? Maybe a million? Maybe a million. Yeah. That's pretty remarkable. Think about all those artworks all over the world. Right. In museums, in galleries, in homes that have your stretchers holding them together. Right. Isn't that kind of a cool idea, right? Well, you know, it's an honor. I mean... Yeah. You know, everything is custom made here. Yeah. We don't make it ahead of the time and try to put it on the shelf and sell them. Yeah. So it depends on the market as well, right? And sometimes people have a large quantity order. Sometimes they only want one stretcher. Yeah. So for me, getting one single stretcher and giving you a headache about the dimensions and the shape to maybe an artist ordering 50 or 60, you can do it. No problem. Yours is not a headache. Really? Is that a challenge? Yeah. Give me something even more complicated. All right. Well, I'll figure something out. No problem. So we're here at finishing and I have two questions for you. One, why even bother with this? It looks so labor intensive. Why not just skip it like everybody else does? It'd be faster, cheaper, easier. And two, they're doing it by hand. Why not power tools, you know, automatic sanding? Just again, make it faster and easier. Well, since this is like one of a kind product, right? This is built specifically for a job for a conservator or for an artist. So we would like to make sure that every joint engaged nicely, nice and tight. And also everything is nice and flat. So there's no steps. I see. So again, it's about precision. Precision. And you want it to look nice. Why not? No, I got you. I appreciate it. It makes a lot of sense to me. So the last step is keys, right? Yes. So these are the keys. And the function of keys is to expand this joint and add tension on your canvas so that it doesn't get slack. I've noticed that you put the keys in like this with this angle here. And I put the keys in like this with a 90 degree angle. And I do it this way because that's how my father taught me. And if I didn't do it that way, he'd yell at me. So which is the right way? Because I got to tell you, among conservators, keys and which way they go in is a never ending debate. Some people say this is the right way. So settle it once and for all today here with me. Which is the right way? But be careful because I'm a customer. That's not right or wrong though. Really? Now, yes. If you cut this off and make it into a parallel key. Yeah. Right. So if you like to take your hammer and hit it parallel to the edge. Yep. Or I call this my, it's an angle key. So when you strike, you strike it this way. Right. So we make all different shapes of keys, even rounding. Wait, why rounded? Because you don't want the short parallel grain to break off when you strike it. Okay. So if you hit it here, it might snap off. Yes. And you had mentioned that sometimes people want different shaped keys. Like they tell you, well, we want, you know, a cut here or a rounded here. I mean, why? It's just different conservators, different aesthetic. Or they want to, you know, we produce what was original in that stretch. Okay. So, so matching something historic or like you said, just for aesthetics. Yeah. Which, you know, for something so utilitarian as a stretcher support and a key, you'd think that aesthetics don't matter. Yeah. It matters. It does. Yeah, it does. Right. I mean, and I always tell people when I work on paintings, I take the same care on the back as they do on the front because it matters. Yes. And some people say, well, that's crazy. It's a waste of time and money. And then they see it and they say, oh, something as humble as the little key, it matters. Yes. All right, Simon, this looks like a vacuum press. Yes. Why do you have a vacuum press here? What are you making? Well, here we are laminating a piece of canvas on the panel, but normally we use it to laminate panel like this. So this is not your traditional canvas on a stretcher, which is soft and has some spring. Right. This is a rigid support for an artist who wants to paint on something hard. Right. And you mentioned that these are what you're making. Right. See, a lot of artists like to paint on a hard surface. Yeah. And rather than, you know, having a canvas stretch over it or laminate onto it, they go directly on the wood. So you're building these things specifically for artists. Yes. And my guess is because you looked around and saw that there was nothing sufficient, nothing up to your standards, and you felt that you could do better. You don't have to be modest about it. That's what the whole place is about, right? Seeing things that aren't good and doing better. Right. Yeah. So the design of the strainer bar, I call this strainer bar because of the L shape with the tongue and groove. So it's very stable. And I also purchased these whole piece face veneer birch plywood that custom made for us. So better material. Better material. Better design. Yes. Better product. Better for the artists. Right. Never content, Simon is always experimenting and innovating with new materials like honeycomb panels, which are dimensionally stable, or hybrid aluminum wood stretchers, which are lighter weight and stronger than traditional wood stretchers for extra large pieces of artwork. Well, Simon, I tell you, I've been using your products my entire career and I've always known them to be super high quality. In fact, the best that I've ever seen. But to come here and see how you do it and to see the precision that your team takes with simple things like keys to really advanced things like honeycomb panels, not only makes me as a conservator feel really good with my own choice to continue using your products, it makes me really confident in your products. And I can understand why artists should have the faith to put their most prized creations on Simon Lou's support. So thanks for letting me take up your day and showing me around. Really appreciate you coming and showing how we do things, the way that we think is the right way to do it. Well, I think it's important to people. This is your little oval strainer that you ordered. Yeah, this is for a really special painting for a client. So yeah, it's four pieces of hardwood joint together. And then after that, the hardest part is maybe doing a little slight bevel on this side. Oh, right. Yeah, right. Even a small little oval gets the Simon Lou treatment. Well, thanks, Simon. This is really wonderful. And I look forward to using more of your products in the future. Thank you so much. There's a certain humility knowing that no matter how beautiful or precise one's work, it will always be upstaged by that which it supports. But for Simon, that responsibility is precious. And that's evident by the decades of experience, innovation and refinement that he's invested into his work, all in the service of the magic of art.