Holiday Hits & The Art of Christmas Songwriting With Charlie Puth | Billboard On The Record

Why does Christmas music sound so Christmassy? How can we recognize within the first few seconds that a certain recording is going to be a holiday song? Is it the sleigh bells? The waltz time signatures? The jolly pop melodies? Well, thankfully, I have a very special guest today who can help solve that mystery for us. Charlie Puth is here as part of our special two-part Christmas series this week to break down the sound behind Christmas hits. Welcome back to On the Record, a music business podcast from Billboard and Sick Bird Productions. I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and today we are joined by Professor Puth himself to understand the sound of Christmas music and also what are some of his favorite holiday hits. This seasonal genre may only hit the top of the Hot 100 for about a month out of the year, but pinning a Christmas classic is a seriously big business. In the U.S. alone, Billboard estimates that Christmas recordings earn about $177 million annually. Plus, there's great sentimental value in minting an evergreen holiday hit. This time every year, think about how many families around the world are inviting the sounds of Mariah Carey, Michael Buble, Brenda Lee, Nat King Cole, and others into their homes. These are memories that last a lifetime and create an eternal bond between the fan and the artist. But before we bring Charlie in to break this down for us, I just want to warn our regular viewers of On the Record that we are going to be taking a slight break during the holidays, but we'll be back in mid-January to give you even more great interviews and insights into the music business. As a bonus, for our last Christmas music-themed week of the year, there's actually going to be a second episode this week all about the behind-the-scenes business of Christmas music with Warner Chappell's CEO Guy Moote and COO Carrie Ann Marshall. So if you love what you hear today, definitely check that one out too. Okay, enough housekeeping. Let's bring in Charlie Puth. Please welcome him to On the Record. Charlie Puth, thank you so much for coming to On the Record. Thank you for having me and thank you for plopping a little piano here. I know, I figured we can't have you on without having one. You're not gonna get a good interview without a piano. It helps me get the words out a little bit. I instantly become calmer. Okay, well great. Okay, so today we're having a special episode. It's our Christmas episode. And I've gathered you here today to help us answer a very important question, which is why does Christmas music sound so Christmassy? But before we get started, I do kind of want to hear your earliest memories with Christmas music. Think back to your childhood. What are those early moments that you had with Christmas music? Right, well, growing up in a Roman Catholic church, I heard Christmas music that played very stiffly. Oh, come let us adore and improvise. I would listen to the organist and I'd be like, instead of playing. What if you did like juiced up, like put a little jazz. And then at the dawn of YouTube, I would look up Christmas music played in church, but in like Memphis, Tennessee. And then I would hear. Yeah, that's the gospel. All the gospelness. I'm like, oh, okay, that's the ticket. That's what it takes to make a Christmas song sound the most Christmassy and not stiff. Not that the music in the Roman Catholic church is bad, but it's just less loose than I'd like to hear it. It's not a Christmas song, but there's, I remember hearing a song called Jesus, you're the center of my joy. It goes, Jesus, you're the center of my joy. All that's good and perfect comes from you. I haven't thought of the song in like. Do you know the song? Yeah, I grew up in church. I was like Episcopalian, but that's like basically Catholic, but watered a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. So same stuff. But like that doesn't exist in a lot of churches. And then I would hear R&B Christmas music, like sung by like Luther, produced by Quincy Jones. And I would hear all those chord changes. So that's my earliest remembrance of hearing Christmas music. Yeah, and you've released a Christmas song yourself. You released one last year. I did, yeah. December 25th. Yeah. How did you approach writing that differently from just a typical song of yours? Like what were some of the chords that you were trying to play into to make it sound Christmassy or the lyrics? Right. That kind of thing. Well, other than making sure that there was a jingle bell in the percussion, there's the perks as the producers call it. You have the one, and it's like the Hungry Heart, Bruce Springsteen chord progression. For whatever reason, and I'm not really good with like the names of like all of the chords. I'm not like Jacob Collier where I can like call out the names of like one, three, five. I just know what feels. Yeah. Feels like Christmas to me. So I was like, I'm going to put that in a Christmas song and also chin rub. Why haven't I put out a Christmas song? Yeah. I mean, kind of shocking that you didn't until just now. Yeah. It was kind of like, I had just like met the new record label at Atlantic and like they were like, is there anything you want to do? And I'm like, I just want to like, I know Christmas is next week, but I just want to put out a Christmas song. Wait, that's how fast it came together? Yeah. I wrote it in like an hour. Oh, I'm shocked by that. I feel like usually when I hear people talk about the Christmas music they've made, they write it in July and then they like do a whole marketing campaign. But that's why I didn't get, that's why I didn't put a lot of marketing behind it because I was working on my album and it's just something I needed to do for myself. So I literally wrote it over the phone, over a meeting with Elliot and like the next day sent it to him. Wait, like Elliot Grange? Yeah. Oh. He was the one who was like, have you ever made a Christmas song before? It's a terrible Elliot Grange impression, but he told me to do it as well. Wow. Okay. Yeah, and I feel like that song to me, it had like very like, kind of an 80s pop nostalgic feel to it. It reminded me of, yeah, like almost like a last Christmas, but modern. Was that something that was in your head when you were writing it of trying to kind of have that sound in mind? Kinda. The drums definitely are a little elbow rub to that, I would say, with the Lynn snare drum, but I also wasn't really even thinking about the production. I kinda just wanted to, originally the song was gonna be called December 26th and I was gonna make it like, but it was like too complicated to like lyrically to like the next day after Christmas, after you leave is when I feel the worst. I guess that could have worked, but it kind of was like a lot of here to here to understand this, you have to go here, like it's call it December 25th. Why? Because it's Christmas. It worked, it works. Well, whenever I think of Christmas music, I always think of like the idea of trying to like bottle a nostalgic feeling, a homey feeling. And I feel like you did that with that song, with that kind of 80s style production quality to it. But it's interesting because that has not always been a nostalgic sound. I think that might've only recently become more of a nostalgic sound. When you hear Christmas music, what kind of eras do you hear people mostly drawing their inspiration from when they're writing a modern Christmas? What's so funny is that it's the only genre of music where people reach for the really old stuff, the, the, the, the 60s. I feel like people really reach for the, if you hear underneath the tree by Kelly Clarkson. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, underneath the tree. That sounds, if you took away the modern, that came out in 2011. If you took out the modern production, that sounds like rockin' around the Christmas tree, almost. It might've been a reference. Even All I Want for Christmas is You, you know it, by Mariah Carey. I'm familiar with it. Even that, but like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, it sounds like, it's almost like a crocodile rock, kind of like, it has like a rock and roll, like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, it has that. I guess Last Christmas by Wham! kind of stands on its own, because it's just really a true 80s Christmas song. I guess Band-Aids, do they know it's Christmas as well? And maybe, when did, ♪ Simply having a wonderful Christmas time. ♪ We should fact check that, that's probably like, I feel like that's like late 80s or something. Yeah, I do feel like there's kind of like, from each decade, there's one mega hit in Christmas music. 80s would probably be Last Christmas, 90s would be All I Want for Christmas is You. Actually, I don't know what 2000s would be, but. 2000s, I think Britney tried to, on Now That's What I Call Christmas, they had at the very end, I always love those Now CDs, that's how I learned a lot of music, I apparently did too. I heard Britney Spears' ♪ Santa Valtier-na-na-na-na-na-na. ♪ Oh, I haven't thought about that one in a minute. That is not a direct rip, but they obviously had some inspirational Mariah's, has this reoccurring Christmas hit every year. We want some of that for Britney, but I think a sub-genre of Christmas music that is severely underappreciated is the R&B-ness. Of Christmas music, on the Grinch soundtrack in 2000, I remember listening to that soundtrack and hearing Justin Timberlake in in-sync. ♪ The silent wind is blowing cold. ♪ And they did the. ♪ Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. ♪ ♪ And there's no one I own. ♪ ♪ Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. ♪ ♪ This Christmas, baby, you don't have to be alone. ♪ And then they. It's like when the movie would end and the credits are rolling. And everybody's. It's the perfect credit song. It's the perfect. Everybody's walking out of the theater. It kind of smells like popcorn. And there's a couple of people who haven't left the theater. I was one of them. Yeah. Should we go to TGI Fridays or something? It's like American cinema, like all in the early 2000s wrapped up in one. But like, even like Boyz II Men, like the. ♪ Let it snow. ♪ That's an amazing song. And it's a hit in the R&B space, but why isn't it a worldwide kind of thing? Yeah, why is it not in that top 10 Hot 100 slot? Right now, I mean, at the time of this recording, I think half of the Hot 100 top 10 is Christmas music. And it's interesting because I think it's so fascinating how many people release new Christmas songs every year, given it's so hard to mint one of those hits that like lasts forever in Christmas. And also Christmas music's only at the top of the charts for like three weeks and then it goes away. But people keep coming. Like instantly, the next day, on Boxing Day. On December 26th. People throw away their Christmas music and move on. Isn't that sad though? I know. When did this happen? Because when I was in college in 2010, like Christmas music wasn't like dominating the charts. Yeah, so actually it's a phenomenon of the streaming era. Because with streaming, you can look back on any song ever for free. So you're not buying full, you know, like my family always had like the Nat King Cole Christmas album and that was our go-to. And that's the only thing that we listened to. But now we can just say, hey Alexa, play holiday hits. Right. Pop hits or something. Sounds like my wife. Yeah, there you go. Like, Alexa, play music. Yeah. And I'm like pecking at my, what do you mean play music? What kind of music? She's like, I don't know. Yeah, no, but that's like, apparently holiday music over-indexes on Amazon Music. Wow. Which is interesting to me. Because people are just like, hey, I'm about to have a dinner party. People are coming over. Play R&B Christmas music. Even like on Sirius, they have the Holly Channel. And it's like, it's artists that I didn't even know recorded a Christmas song. Like Natasha Benningfield. You know, she has a slew of Christmas music. Didn't know. It's even, I didn't know Sabrina Carpenter. ♪ Santa doesn't know you like I do. ♪ That's the last Christmas song. Last Christmas, rather. Chord progression. ♪ Doesn't know you like I do. ♪ Da da da da da da da da. I don't think I know this one. It's called Santa Doesn't Know You Like I Do sung by Sabrina Carpenter. Wow. And it's a really good song. And it kind of like has like a 90s flow to it. Interesting. Really, really, really good. But like everything innately has a little bit of R&B-ness in Christmas music, except the Christmas music that's like, you know, run, run, Rudolph. Da da da da da da da da. I would always play in my old Tesla when I couldn't, every time I turned it on, like the car would play that song. Da da da da da da da. Like my blinker was jingle bells. I'm like, what is this car? Got rid of it. So was that like a CD that you always had in the player? Was that the first song on iTunes? Which one? The Sabrina Carpenter song? No, not the Sabrina Carpenter song. What is it? Run, run, Rudolph. No, it was just Christmas mode. My friend like messed with me and put it in permanent Christmas mode. That's a pretty good joke though, I have to say. Yeah, I got rid of the car. I couldn't stand it anymore. But now that's what I call Christmas. Started out with chestnuts roasting on an open fire. What edition though? There's so many people who did that song. I like the Justin Bieber Usher version in G major. Chestnuts roasting on an open fire. Da da da da. That Justin Bieber Christmas album is one of my favorite Christmas albums. Oh, Mistletoe's a banger. I've told him that and I didn't know. I think he thought I was joking. But when I was like, no, that's one of my favorite Christmas albums. Fa la la with Boyz II Men. I swear, I'm being completely dead ass right now. I think it's one of the best Christmas songs. That's Bartender by T-Pain. We're devolving into Bartender. This is the time of year we can give it, give it, give it, give it all. That, ooh, like 2011. I was in college listening to that. I'd be like, this kid, he got it, man. It does bang. So obviously Justin Bieber's Christmas album is one that you really like. All Time Fave. Okay, well is there a quintessential just singular Christmas song that you think hits all the marks of what a Christmas song should be? I think the Brian McKnight, Boyz II Men, the let it snow. The outro, I was talking to my friend Pop about this the other day. The outro, let it snow, let it. My manager's from Philly, so now of course I'm talking about Boyz II Men right when she comes in. Let it snow, let it snow. I mean, other than like the twinkly sound, like if I took the twinkly sound away, just put a little. Because Christmas music is inherently jazz when it's a ballad, and when it's a rock and roll song, it's a piano kind of thing too. But usually it's, let it snow, let it snow, let it snow. That song sounds like falling in love at Christmas. Or like going to a Christmas party with someone that you're kind of seeing and the house is kind of small and you all sneak off into a small room or something like that. And the TV doesn't look like that TV. It's not a flat screen, it's like a small TV. And there's a GameCube. That's what that song sounds like to me. This is such a fun interview, I love this. Let's keep going on this idea. So when you're thinking about Christmas music, what are some of the key points that a Christmas song really needs to be instantly recognizable? I mean, obviously the jingle bells, sleigh bells don't hurt. Sleigh bells in the production's always nice. I think TLC, at the end of Home Alone 2, Lost in New York, TLC had a, I think Ain't Too Proud to Beg had just come out. It was 1992, Dallas, Austin. I'd put jingle bells in. T-Boz was singing, ♪ Just hear those sleigh bells ring-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling. ♪ It was like a 90s thing. And they had the sleigh bells and it instantly made it a Christmas thing. There was no baby face like. And none of that in there, but that was okay because that was that kind of song. I think the defining, the thing that I hear most in Christmas music is this chord. Whatever this chord's called, if anybody. Well, I'm not gonna be able to answer it if you can't, but. There's, like if I did. Okay, sounds nice, but. Yeah, it resolves always really cleanly. That sounds like a Christmas. It's like, whatever this ---- is. I don't know. It's like a, I don't know. I literally don't know what it's called. Yeah. Most Christmas music. Actually, that's what the Mariah thing is. ♪ Underneath the Christmas tree ♪ ♪ Oh, I'd have sauntered for my own ♪ ♪ Da-da-da-da-da-da-dum ♪ ♪ Make my wish come true ♪ That's very, that's a Christmas chord. ♪ All I want for Christmas, dippers ♪ You know what, Christmas melodies have a lot of chromaticism in them. ♪ All I want for Christmas ♪ It sounds like a Christmas song. So now I've had coffee, so now I'm really gonna. Now we're like on a roll. Okay, so knowing so many songwriters and producers as you do, do you hear people trying every year to write Christmas pitch songs or to write with artists for Christmas albums? Is that something that people are chasing? Because those hits, if you get it, come back every single year. Right. They come with a good paycheck. Sure, but I think, I haven't actually heard, Christmas music aside, I haven't heard songwriters get together and try and write one singular song and spread it out to a bunch of artists in a very 2014 kind of way. In a long time, I feel like the swag nowadays is to get with an artist, like Amy Allen's done with Sabrina, and just make their album and focus on the body of work. I feel like everybody's focusing on a body of work now. Yeah. I haven't, if it's happening, I'm sure it's happening, I just. I mean, it's kind of a futile thing to do, or at least in talking to publishers and songwriters for various stories over the years, it seems like the pitch game is just so far down. Yeah. For just getting some songwriters in a room with no artist and no plan, and just being like, this could be for Selena. Like, it doesn't really work that well anymore. I don't think it works like that anymore. When you were coming up, was that still something that was popular? I've had songs that when I wrote See You Again, we had 10 different. Yeah, that was a pitch. That was a pitch song. We had 10 different artists cut it. And then I ended up becoming an artist and singing it, which I'm very grateful for. I was going in the room with like 10 other people and being like, okay, so-and-so is looking for something. This is what their last album sounded like. We had to retain that, but push it in this direction. It was very calculated. Now it's like the record labels don't even know what a hit is anymore. So it's just about making something that feels good. So how do you feel about like the way that the game has changed? Do you think that it's positive for music that most of its biggest stars are in the studio crafting their entire albums with a core set of people? Or do you think that there's more harm than good in moving away from the pitch game? Because I imagine it makes it harder for songwriters to break through. Yeah, I feel like there's an ebb and flow to everything. I think it's, I remember touring in Asia in 2016 and there were still a Tower Records in Japan, in Tokyo. And people were lined up because Japanese artists had just dropped a brand new album and people were lined up around the block. And even then that really didn't exist in America. I mean, while Tower Records was closed on Sunset Boulevard, I don't think people were caring about albums as much then. It was just singular songs, singular songs, still iTunes charts and that. But I feel like people are buying vinyls and caring about what the artist has put into the craft. Like CDs are starting to smell good again, you know what I mean? Wait, okay, what do you mean by that? Like a literal smell? Yeah, like a literal smell because record labels would invest a lot of money into making the graphics and the CD and the jewel case look all flowy and good. And I remember buying Celebrity by NSYNC, their second album off Jive and like just smelling the, this is gonna be so weird, but like you did it too. No, it's that like plastic wrap around it. Yeah, and it was $20 in 2002. Yeah, which is a lot. It's a lot, it's still a lot today. It's just, there was a lot of care that went into these albums and LPs and I feel like people are just starting to care about albums again. They're buying record players. I can't remember the question now. I think that's what we were talking about. Yeah, I don't know where we started with it, but I like where we went with it. But, oh, oh, oh, the question was, basically just like, is it a positive change that we've made in the industry that now artists are writing with songwriters directly? I think any chance people get to make music and have a song do well because a bunch of their friends got together and they were celebrating and having a great time doing it, if it happens to perform well, that's a win and worth celebrating. I think if it does okay, it's a win as well. If it comes out, it's a win. That's so true. I've written songs and some of them haven't done so well, but it was just like, I needed to get it out and that was a win for me. Any chance we get to release music is a celebration. This episode is brought to you by SoundExchange. Since 2003, SoundExchange has distributed more than 12 billion in royalties to a community of more than 800,000 recording artists and sound recording rights owners. SoundExchange makes it easy to collect the digital performance royalties you earn whenever your music is played in the US and all available royalties abroad. With a growing portfolio of agreements with partner collective management organizations covering 90% of the available global market, SoundExchange streamlines the complex administrative burden of international collections for nearly half a million artists and rights owners. Ready to register and find out more? Visit soundexchange.com to get started. And going back to Christmas music, we were kind of talking about like what things really define the sound of a Christmas song. And I'm wondering also like with the structure of songs, like do you still see like kind of a verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus kind of format or are there kind of different formats that you see prevalent in Christmas music? I don't hear a lot of like middle sections, a la, you will. There's that chord again. And we're going back to the beginning. I don't hear that section as much in modern Christmas music. I hear a lot of high fidelity like fake strings which is okay. Yeah, yeah. What do you think is a Christmas standard that's been covered a little too many times? One that I just don't care for is the baby, it's cold outside. I know that's like the whole thing about that too. I just, I genuinely just like don't really love that song. Like I don't, I actually don't even really listen to lyrics when I first listened to a song. I always pay attention to the melody and I'm just like, oh my God, get on with it. The songwriter's watching this. I'm sorry, whoever you are. I think that song's been around long enough that that songwriter's not watching. I mean, it's a fine song, but I'm not like putting on baby, it's cold outside. I think we can retire that one. I think that's okay to retire. I just, I'm just gonna kind of, I'm just gonna just leave it off the playlist. It's not one that I'm reaching for. I'm putting TLC Sleigh Bells on. I'm putting even a Bing Crosby record on and especially Let It Snow, the Boyz II Men record. That's my favorite song. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I also really like those Christmas songs that are almost not Christmas songs. Whenever I think of this, like- Oh yeah. Almost like a River by Joni Mitchell. Yeah, it's coming on Christmas, cutting down trees, putting out reindeers, singing songs of joy and peace. I wish I had a river. In 2006, James Taylor put out a Christmas album. He did a cover of that song. That was the first time I heard River. I thought he wrote it. And then I checked the credits because I was smelling the CD and I saw that Joni Mitchell wrote it. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's one of my favorites. Like another weird one to me is like, I think there are some songs that accidentally become Christmas songs, like a Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen. And like, he's not even celebrating Christmas, but it's just, and it's not a Christmas song, but it's still there. He's not celebrating Christmas on that song. That's the equivalent of like Die Hard being a Christmas movie, but it's not a Christmas movie. It just happens to take place at a time where Christmas was being celebrated. Like it's, but you know what? It's a really sad. Have you ever heard Same Old Lang Syne by Dan Vogelberg? I don't think so. It's so sad. It's, met my old lover at the grocery store. The snow was falling Christmas Eve. Like I've heard the song in July on, you know, 101.1 WCBS FM. Snow was falling Christmas Eve. I sold me out and I touched her on her sleeve. It's about rekindling a romance with a former lover and then she just goes off into the distance and same familiar feeling that I felt at school and felt that old familiar pain. And as I turned to make my way back home, the snow turned into rain. And everybody always goes rain. And it's just like, oh, it gives me goosebumps. I didn't even do a good job just now, but that is, how is that a Christmas song? It's the most depressing song ever, but it's beautiful. It's just the time of year that I guess they're referencing in the lyrics that makes it fall into the Christmas category. You know what I don't like? What? Is my favorite thing. I like the song, My Favorite Things. Yes. Like raindrops on roses. And like, that's not a Christmas song. Okay. I don't like that as a Christmas song. I listened to on John Coltrane had played on Naima. Brown picker, paper packages tied up with string. I get it, presents, but this is not a Christmas song. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't explain it. This is totally different. It's the hills are alive with the sound of music. It's Austria. Like, I don't, I'm not, it's not giving Christmas. I don't know why. Yeah, it's Austria, World War II. It's not, yeah. It's not giving Christmas. And nice architecture in the beginning of the movie. Seeing all the buildings pass by. God, what's in this coffee? You have literally had one sip. For those who can't see right now and is just listening to it as a podcast, he has had one sip. Yes, I've had three sips now. Yeah, but I don't know. It is interesting how things fall into the Christmas canon without even trying. And I wish that I had done my research on my favorite things, but I'm sure there's someone who knows and will comment on this as a YouTube video. Yeah, I'm sure it was in something important and everyone on X is gonna get mad that we didn't mention it and we suddenly hate Christmas. Therefore we hate people. Yeah, that's the takeaway from this interview. We hate Christmas. That's why we're dedicating our afternoon to it right now. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean, it is an interesting phenomenon how things become part of the Christmas canon, even if they're not. Have you ever heard the Christmas Shoes? I'm sorry to cut you off. No, no, I don't know the Christmas Shoes. God. It's like, do you know the Christmas Shoes? Does anyone know the Christmas Shoes? You don't know the Christmas Shoes? No one in this room knows it. It's about a little boy who can't afford Christmas Shoes for his dying mother. She's at the hospital and there's a shoe store right across the street from the hospital and a man is right behind in line and the little boy gives the change to the salesperson and the salesperson's like, I'm sorry, this is not enough. And oh my God, it's so sad. Ready? It goes, and he said, ♪ Sir, I wanna buy these shoes for my mama, please. ♪ ♪ It's Christmas Eve and these shoes are just her size. ♪ ♪ Could you hurry, sir? Daddy says there's not much time. ♪ ♪ She's been sick for quite a while and know these shoes ♪ ♪ Will make her smile and want her to look beautiful. ♪ ♪ If mama meets Jesus tonight. ♪ So sad, do you ******* hear that ----? If mama meets Jesus tonight. Wait, mommy needs Jesus tonight? If mommy meets Jesus tonight, if she dies, she's gonna wear her favorite shoes. To heaven. I didn't even play it well, but that, like Ty's crying right now. That is the saddest. Not a dry eye in the room. And then if, oh, just to rub it in, the last chorus is just a children's choir in B major. ♪ Sir, I wanna buy these shoes for my mama, please. ♪ ♪ I want her to look beautiful if mama meets Jesus tonight. ♪ Like, oh my God, it makes my sister cry. My sister is like, she does not show emotion except then. Wow. That kind of reminds me, there's this Willie Nelson Christmas song. I think it's called Pretty Paper, but it's about like a homeless person who's selling pins and paper on the side of the road to like stay alive. Oh my God. And I'm like, equally, extremely sad. Why, okay, so that song I played is technically a country Christmas song. Oh, and this is a country Christmas song. What is it about country Christmas music that is so sad? I don't know. I feel like Christmas music is either extremely jolly or extremely sad. There's not really a middle ground. In Texas, past the Mason-Dixon line, it's completely sad. What's going on? I don't know. I don't know what's going on. I'm trying to think of other country Christmas songs. There's plenty of them, but I can't think of them right now. But yeah, it sounds like R&B Christmas, that's your lane. R&B Christmas is my lane, but I also like, you remember the Carpenters, Karen Carpenter sing? Yeah, of course. ♪ Merry Christmas, darling, we're apart, that's true. ♪ ♪ I keep dreaming in my dreams that I'm Christmasing with you. ♪ ♪ All the lights on my tree, I wish you could see. ♪ ♪ I wish it every day. ♪ ♪ The logs on the floor fill me with desire. ♪ Okay, so I feel like the Carpenters are kind of the quintessential artists that could do a Christmas album really well. I'm wondering, do you think that there are certain artists that just like really have a penchant for making good Christmas songs, given like the nostalgia of the genre, the style? Also no longer with us anymore, Luther Vandro, so he's had a wonderful, I'm not even gonna pretend to do a Luther impression, but, ♪ And I'll sit on an open fire. ♪ Put the swing in it, cause Quincy Jones produced it. And even in the super traditional, Oh Come All Ye Faithfuls, Luther singing it just gives you goosebumps everywhere. Okay, I do like a hymn though. Yeah. I can do a hymn, it's straight laced. Yeah, I thought you were saying you like Luther Vandro's, but you were putting like, I like a hymn. Oh no. I like a H-Y-N-N. Hymn, yeah. There's the Norman Tabernacle Choir in Utah. It's the most, you YouTube it, it's the most wonderful, it's like a hundred person choir and they are just, just, it's perfect, it's perfection. Yeah, I can like, like Oh Holy Night is one of my favorites. I, that like, ♪ Fall on your knees. ♪ Like that's, there's so much. ♪ Fall on your knees. ♪ Yeah. ♪ Oh hear the angel voices. ♪ There's that chord again. Yeah. We need it, we need to identify this chord. Somebody, what is this? This is the key to why something sounds Christmassy, I guess. Literally. Yeah. I wish I had my phone. I should, this guy sings it so well in like 2007 on this YouTube video. He just, his voice is so operatic and great. I don't remember. But yeah, I think going back to one of my previous questions, like what do you think makes an artist like an apt choice for doing a Christmas album? Could any artists do a Christmas album? I think if they wanted to, I've heard, hasn't Green Day put out a, like a, ♪ Hear those sleigh bells ring. ♪ Like someone's put out. I guess you could, yeah, you could translate it into a lot of different. Hasn't like Jimmy Eat World or something put out a Christmas song? I just feel if NSYNC can put out a Christmas song and I feel like it's about putting your distinct artistry into Christmas. Like if you're a rock band, you're gonna make it like rocky. If you're, you know, me, you're just gonna sing it exactly the way it's supposed to be because most of my non-Christmas music sounds like Christmas music. Okay, so I want to do like a little bit of a Christmas rapid fire. What is the most underrated Christmas song to you? Probably the, my third time mentioning now, the let it snow. Oh, okay. Is, and also Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer by Elmo. Oh, wait, did, is that an Elmo original? No, it was a guy and a girl and it's the only song they put out, I think. Grandma got run over by a reindeer. You ever heard the song? Well, there's this whole other like part of, now we're getting away from rapid fire, but that's okay. There's this whole other side of Christmas music where you have just like hokey. It's like Dominic the donkey. It's. I love Christmas music. I want a hippopotamus for Christmas. Yeah. All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth. That is the most genius lyric ever because all I want for Christmas is my two front teeth so I could wish you Merry Christmas. She can't say Merry Christmas because she has no ******* teeth. It's amazing. That's genius. Yeah, yeah. It's, it is this like really strange subset, usually sung by children. Yeah. I feel like it's like a, almost like a musical children's kind of. There are another. The Home Alone one. Carol of the Bells. Yeah. That's usually sung by kids. And oh, all the Charlie Brown stuff. There's the chord again. And there's a lot of this really isn't rapid fire anymore. There's key changes in Christmas music. No one's afraid of a key change. It's almost preferred. Okay. So that's like another hallmark of the, of the Christmas, if it's genre. Yeah. I think it could be considered a genre. Another sub, sub, sub, sub, sub genre of Christmas music is local acts. There was this local band in New Jersey called the Holiday Express that they sold their CDs like independently and just for local charities. And they sung a cover of a song, no one wants to be alone on Christmas, none alone on Christmas. And it wasn't recorded very well because you know, it's just like some local town stuff recorded next to the deli or something, but it was wonderful. And I would blast that CD on the way to second grade and my mom wouldn't, I wasn't driving. I do think another subset that we haven't talked about but I don't think either of us are much of an expert in is like kind of the contemporary Christian space. Like these mega churches that put out Christmas albums. Well, they all sound like Christmas songs. Yeah, the worship music. Where's my piano? Oh. My Jesus, my savior. The na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. The mega church music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Na, na, na, na. That's not a Christmas song. Shout to the Lord. That's what it's called. Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. Shout to the Lord on the earth, let us sing. Oh yeah. Shout to the Lord, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. But like there's the George Michael. Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. It's all related. Mm, mm. Mega church. Yeah, they're not afraid of a key change either. No, definitely not. Because I think like the hallmark of worship music to me, modern worship music, is you need to make sure that the whole congregation can catch on without sheet music, without musical training. They need to go and it's on the screen in front of you. I've been to a few mega churches in my day, being from Texas. Yes. And like they just put it on like a screen. It's just the lyrics. Yeah, the little music note bouncing. Yep. Kind of thing. Yeah, it's a sing-along every Sunday. I mean, you have to, I mean, that's the most universally great music, but you can sing it without sheet music. Yeah. Any Joe Schmo can sing along. Yeah, very true. Another part of my rapid fire, which is not rapid. Yeah, it's the slow mud. Slow fire. What is your favorite Christmas soundtrack? Like what Christmas movie has the best soundtrack? Oh my. I think the Grinch is pretty great. Like the 2000 version? Yeah, the 2000 Grinch. Okay, so if you had to pick a traditional Christmas song or a hymn, what would be the go-to for you? Probably. ♪ O come let us adore him ♪ Oh yeah. ♪ In Bethlehem. ♪ That's amazing. Please be seated. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, very good. Christ be with you. And also with you. They don't say that anymore, but. Oh, they definitely still do. They do? Oh yeah. And also with you. Lift up your hearts. We lift them up to the Lord. It's time to go back. ♪ Christ has died. ♪ It's time for you to go back to that Catholic mass. Yes. On December 25th. I'm gonna light it up. Yeah. Well, I always love like a silent night in the darkness. That's always like the way that my church ended it off. That's a banger. Ooh, in the dark. What's in the darkness? Oh yeah, they'll turn off all the lights and just candle it. And they just sing Silent Night very quietly. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, it's great. Church never turned the lights off on me. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, it's different. And what's the first Christmas song you ever learned how to play as a kid? I'm sure growing up, that's like such a classic thing to do in like piano lessons or something. I seriously think it was the Carpenter song. It's usually Jingle Bells. Jingle Bells was for me. It was probably Jingle Bells. And I just don't remember it because I was probably six, but where I was like, what's this chord? ♪ Waiting cause I'm old and sad. ♪ I'm like, I need to learn that. That's probably like 98. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely that. Yeah. And now I wanna talk a little bit about what's coming up for you. Yes. Okay. Not a Christmas album. Yes, you're not releasing a Christmas album, but thank you for sharing all of your Christmas insights with us today. Love Christmas. Yes. Okay, so March 6th, correct? March 6th, Whatever's Clever. Whatever's Clever, new album. Yeah. What can you tell us about it? You have one single out. Is the single representative of the sound that you're going for in the full project? It definitely is. The honesty and all the chords that you'd expect from me are there, but I'm just singing about things I haven't sung about before, like my insecure, my personal insecurities, my family, my dealings with, my tough conversations I've had with friends and relationships, not romantic changing, but for the better, all in front of my eyes with a melody attached to it. Other people's perspective on things and not even making the song about me, making it about them and just brutal honesty about how I've conducted myself in the past. Like it's things I never thought I'd write about. Yeah. Why do you think you're writing about it now? Was it just out of necessity or out of, I guess, growth and maturity? I think definitely growth and maturity. And I also think that there's what feels like a hundred thousand artificially made songs come out every day and they sound perfect and pristine and buttoned up. I think it's more important to be human than ever. And how do you do that? You sing about things that as of right now, only a human could relate to. Yeah, that's so true. Have you played around on Suno or anything like that? I have not, because I just don't know how to use it. And I looked at it one time on my buddy's computer and somebody was like, you can take an MP3 and it'll spit five different versions back. And my first thought was, well, why can't you just make them? Like the whole fun in producing out an instrumental, whatever you're making, the whole fun is exploring sounds on the keyboards, capturing different sounds with different microphones and taking what's in your head and putting it into tape or the computer. Like it's supposed to be fun and take a couple of hours to do. Why would just have something spit something back at you? That's quite frankly, not even that great. Yeah, so I report on AI quite a lot at Billboard and there's this one time the Suno CEO, he really- And he's here right now. And let's bring him out. No, he kind of put his foot in his mouth. This quote gets recirculated a lot, but he said, I don't think the majority of people enjoy the majority of time making music. That's his quote, which I feel like you just completely dismantled that argument. Well, he said that or was it taken out of context? I mean, that is what he said, like word for word. But I mean, there's obviously like a larger answer around that, but- Yeah, well, that doesn't apply to me. 7 a.m. will be on the clock and then 7 p.m. will arrive instantly because I'm just having such a good time making something. I just, I don't know, until the AI engine can make you feel something like what the Christmas shoes just almost did to me. I don't know. I'll then maybe open my mind up a little bit more. But I always have, I lead with an open mind, but not if it's going to negatively affect hardworking men and women producing for a living. Yeah, so are you a morning writer? Like, did you write a lot of this stuff like first thing in the morning? I write like 10 a.m., like normal time. I'm not a night. I'm a night writer for other artists. Yeah. When I've like got my own stuff done and then I can help them out. That's what I like to do. And why did you choose Changes as your first single for this? I just feel like it was the song with the biggest umbrella of like what we can expect. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but like it- No, it does. It does, right? Like it's, it's not about the changes. It's common misconceptions that it's not about the changes that are in my life. It's the changes that are happening because of somebody. And I guess it's affecting me too, but it's about the change of a friendship. And it's not about, it's not a song about me becoming a father. Yeah, I think a lot of people think that that's like part of it. Yeah, I mean, I am becoming a father soon. Congrats. Thank you. But the song's about how friendships change when you move two hours away or you move to a different state and you just, you just don't go in the same circle anymore. And some, it's not even a bad thing. There's no love loss. It's all innocent. That's actually a lyric in the Ever Dying Bridge. Do people write bridges anymore? I love a bridge. I think they're coming back. Yeah. Are you going to bring back bridges on this album? Are they across the album? There's so many bridges. And you think that like you wonder where the key is going and it goes so far out and then you're just instantly transported back to the key center. Well, I can't wait to hear the whole album. It's really exciting. Do you have any other singles that are going to come out in the new year or are you just going to drop the whole thing? No, we'll put a couple more songs out too. Cause it's a, not a departure sound wise for me but it's definitely, I realized it's a lot different than my last two albums, three albums. So, you know, people are the fish and you put them into the fish tank with like the plastic bag. You know, like when you go to PetSmart and you get a new fish. Am I just, don't use this. They're like, you're, we're warming them up. Okay. I love it. And I ask everyone before they leave my podcast to help me make a playlist based on three prompts. Okay. So my first prompt is what is a song that you can no longer gatekeep? So a song that's lesser known. Sub-Zero by Ben Clock. Okay. I'm not familiar. Now you are. That was gatekept before. I think, don't let me be lonely tonight by James Taylor. I feel like people know it but I don't know if they know it as well as like fire and rain and all your smiling face. And it was kind of like a, a hit B side on the other side of the tape and any love by Luther Vandross. Yeah. Big Luther shout out today. Really good song. I wouldn't gatekeep that anymore. I think it's like track six on a Marcus Miller produced record. That's, those are good picks. Okay. So what is a favorite throwback? So I define this as like anything over 10 years old which leaves a lot of music. Right. Favorite throwback. Lucky by Britney Spears. Yeah. Really, really good. So good. The Christmas chord progression. He's so lucky, da, da, da. He said last Christmas, da, da, I gave you my. Same chord progression. Ooh. Okay. So if you put sleigh bells on that, could we pass it as a Christmas song? Absolutely. Okay. And lastly, what is a guilty pleasure for you? To look at car interiors. Okay. Well, no, I mean songs. Oh, that's my guilty. We talked about so much music. I'm like, oh, what's a guilty pleasure? I'm like, I don't collect stamps. I love, I know a lot about car interiors. Oh, guilty pleasure song. We're going to have to have you back to talk about car interiors though. Yeah. I want to. I'm sure hot off the press at Billboard. I'm sure they can't wait for that. Um, probably, I think, I like the Opelite song by Taylor Swift. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not called the Opelite song, it's called Opelite. Yeah, go pick. It sounds like ABBA. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. It sounds, it feels like an ABBA song. It does, yeah. That's the Christmas chord progression. Interesting. I'm finding out that a lot of Swedish songwriters use the Christmas chord progression. We're, we're almost to something. I don't know what we're. I don't know what we're onto, but it's something. Well, Charlie, thank you so much for coming to On The Record. This was super fun. And chaotic. I know, and chaotic. Very fun. Thank you for having me. That was amazing and such a special opportunity to get to sit down with Professor Puth himself. Another thank you to Charlie for his time and his expertise. Thanks for listening to this week's special holiday episode of On The Record. The show will be off for the next couple of weeks, but don't worry, season one still continues in January, starting January 22nd. And the lineup for the rest of the season is stacked. So come back and join us again. But until then, happy holidays. Again, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson. And tune in in January for another peek behind the curtain of the music business. I'll see you then.