37 Years as CEO: What Ray Zinn Learned About Leadership That Most Miss

As we wrap up the year, we're excited to share this special New Year's Eve episode with you. Thank you for being with us throughout the year. Your support means everything. We wish you a joyful, healthy and inspiring start to the new year. Happy New Year 2026. Funny story, I was coming home late one night, I ran a stop sign. So when I got home, I called the police department and told them that I had run a stop sign and that I'd like to know what the fine is and I'll send them the money. Wow. And the policeman said, are you crazy? Are you some kind of a nutcase? Our Bay Area innovator today is Ray Zinn, Silicon Valley's longest serving CEO, founder of Micra and author of The Essential Leader. In our last conversation, Ray shared the principles that guided him through decades of leadership. Today, we take this conversation one step further. It opens up about building trust inside a company, the role of passion in lasting innovation, making sound judgments, the dangers of communism, as well as the love for airplanes and flying, despite a significant vision disability. This is Bay Area Innovators and I'm your host, Steve Esposito. Ray, welcome to Bay Area Innovators. Well, thank you. Glad to be here. Great to have you here. So welcome back. You've been on our program before. 37 years, the longest serving CEO in the Bay Area. People talk about Jensen Huang. People think that he's been CEO forever. He has still five years to catch up with you. Five more years. Five more years and he's going to catch up. We'll see if that happens and how it happens. Now, you pour a lot of your knowledge into this book right here, The Essential Leader. And this is something we want to talk about more today. You talk about building trust. So I want to start with that. Please tell us about building trust within your organization and with customers. And I also want to hear about that example with the bank where you were personally guaranteeing a loan. So in 1978, we were able to secure a small bank loan, $300,000. The bank doesn't loan to startups. We had to do a very onerous covenant with them that we would never lose money. And I said, well, how about the first three years? And they said, no, you have to be profitable in the very first year. So that was a challenge. So we had to change the business plan and offer services so that we could be paid on a monthly basis. And so it wasn't until 1985 that we were able to develop our own products. But we had such a good track record with the bank at that point, from 78 to 85, that they were willing to loan us some more money, a bank loan, a line of credit, I should say, up to $4 million. Now, I was the main asset holder of the company. So the bank was looking at me to be the guarantor of the loan. My total assets at the time were around $3.5 million. But I needed $4 million. So it was even more than what my assets were. So if I had failed to honor my loan, they would take all my assets plus. And that was kind of scary. You can imagine. It was not an easy decision. So then a couple of years later, the cash flow was sufficient. We did not need that loan. And so the bank, because it's costly to the bank to maintain this guarantee, and so they wanted to stop the guarantee. In other words, they said, we're sufficiently happy with your paying off on a regular basis, the loan, that there was no need of us continuing having the guarantee. And I said, well, let me think about that. I said, the bank was very shocked. You know, they were, what? You don't want to stop the guarantee? And I said, well, let me think about it. So then I called them back later and said, no, I want to continue with the guarantee. And the bank said, so why don't you want to stop the personal guarantee? And I said, because I want that onus on me to remain profitable. So I'd like to continue with the guarantee. So they were, you know, beside themselves. And because it's costly to them. So they said, well, you know, it's expensive for us to maintain this guarantee because we have to keep updating it every year. So I said, okay. I reluctantly said, okay, I'll stop having the personal guarantee. We've had no problem. We're probably one of the most honorable companies that the bank has ever dealt with, because they've never had a company say that they would like to hold on to the rather than say they'd like to be released. Exactly. And so that's that, that's that trust thing. And, and I could have, I could have asked for a hundred million and they would have given it to me, even though I didn't have the assets. So how did you build, how did you build that culture into the company? Okay. So we knew we had to have a culture. And, and so the desire of what I wanted to accomplish, that's why I didn't go the venture capital route. I wanted to build a company based on trust, both from me and the employees. So that's why we set the culture in the very beginning that number one, we were going to be honest, which means we'll always be truthful. The second is that we would have integrity. Integrity is doing what's right when no one's watching. I mean, funny story. I, I was coming home late one night. This is, you know, in, in mid, mid 1990s, 95, I should say around there, I ran a stop sign. And, and cause I was not paying attention. It was late at night. It was like around seven or eight and it was winter time and it was dark and, and I just didn't see the stop sign. So when I got home, I called the police department and told them that I had run a stop sign and that, uh, I like to know what the fine is and I'll send them the money. And, and the, the policeman said, are you crazy? Are you some kind of a nut case? And I said, no, I'm, I just ran the stop sign and, and you weren't, nobody caught me, but that doesn't mean I'm still not violating the law. Wow. He hung up cause he thought I was, I was crazy. So, but that's the kind of mentality that we had is that you do what's right when no one's watching. Even though there was no policeman there to catch me, I still ran the stop sign. Yes. Okay. And I was willing to pay the fine for running a stop sign. So that's integrity. And then the third one is having dignity and respect for every individual. We allowed no swearing, no vulgarity. You couldn't yell or scream at anyone. You know, you had to, you had to be kind and, and, and gentle in your, in your conversation. Now you talk also in your book about substance versus presentations. So I think you mean you're talking about substance versus superficiality. So can you tell us a bit about that? How, how do you, how do you keep the substance and get away from superficiality? So transparency, you know, is a big issue in the, in the country right now. People try to hide what they're doing because they don't want to, to deal with, with, with the consequences of, of, of being totally transparent because, you know, it's like, when did you stop beating your wife? You know, they, that's that sort of thing. They are constantly worried about someone trying to trip them up. Okay. And, and, and so that's superficial, you know, that's when you're not being transparent, you're just coming up with, you know, superficial kinds of, of, of comments and responses. So substance is, is that if you, if you constantly tell the truth, you don't need a good memory. If you're never doing something that is suspect or dishonest, then there's no problem of being superficial. So that's what I meant by that. You talk in your book about passion and inspiration and how passion is the lifeblood of the business. Tell us a little bit about that, you know, how you grow the passion and how you instill the passion into others. So if you're passionate about what you do, you don't work a day in your life. If you're not passionate, you tend to be superficial in the way you manage and run the company. So you're not a, you're dedicated. You don't, you know, you're not focused on, on, on what is important for, for the company, again, being superficial. And so the, the substance of, of, of a passion is, is that it's honest. True, true passion is honest. And, and it's, and you're focused on, on, on the business of the company and, and your employees see that because they don't see you goofing off. They don't see you taking long lunches. They don't see you going home early or coming in late. They, they see that you're really intent on, on, on making sure the company is, is a, is a winner as you would. In fact, I hate losing more than I like winning. Okay. So, you know, I, I don't want to lose. I just, I will do anything to stop myself from, from, from hurting the company. Now, do you think that comes naturally that the passion or there's ways to develop it or to grow into it? I think it's both. I mean, there has to be innately your desire to win. Okay. And I call it not losing. Winning is not losing. So I will make sure I'm prepared in whatever challenge I'm facing so that I will win in, in, in, in the long term, in the long term, I will win as opposed to not having a good plan or like when we started the company, you know, once we committed that we were going to, to make money, to be always profitable because profitable companies don't go out of business. So we're always focused on profitability and, and that's a part of the passion. You know, my passion was to run a profitable company that had the, the culture of honesty and integrity and, and respect for everyone and, and doing what takes, what it takes, no excuses. So we never offered excuses. We always fix the problem. I don't have any regrets, by the way, Steve, because, you know, regrets are something you didn't correct. So if you, if you correct a mistake, then you don't have any regrets. And so I can truthfully say that I've never had regrets because I fixed the problem, not, not in a day. I fixed them instantly. Okay. So if you solve the problem instantly, then you don't have any regrets. And so that's part of the passion that I had for running the company is, is to do what it takes, no excuses. Any role models that stood out for you as far as passion and as far as inspiration for, for what you accomplished? So, uh, I'm a Christian and, and so my role model is, is Jesus Christ. Uh, and, and so I wanted to model the company after the way he would have me run it. Uh, and so that's been my, my role model as you would, uh, there are other people, uh, like Steve jobs who is passionate. So I admired that passion and anyone who, who was transparent, who ran their company in an honest, high integrity way, uh, is, is a role model for me. But Christ is my, my primary role model. Another individual that I admired was the second world war, uh, uh, general general Pat. Uh, he wasn't always liked members of his army liked him more than the, than, than his leaders liked them because you're a little bit of a radical. Uh, you know, he, he, he didn't say it's, it's always his way or the highway, but he did tried things which were unusual. Uh, and, and that's what I admire about general George Patton is that he, he was willing to try different things rather than always sticking in the same rut as you would. And so that's what I admired about him is, is his passion. He had a lot of passion and he was very well liked, loved by his men. Uh, and he was, he was, uh, I think a superb leader and he was very unique in the way that he did things. Now you mentioned in your book that one of your greatest achievements is to find the top people for the job. And this reminds me, we had a coach here, coach did good from Stanford, won 17 NCAA championships for his tennis team. And he told me the same thing. That's what's his secret. He would get the best players. Now, as easy as that sounds, how do you do that? So what I do when I hired my people, I told them that I was not going to make them rich. They were going to make themselves rich. But what I said I would do is help them become a better person. And what's that worth? You can't put a price on it. And that's what the coach said at Stanford was he's going to help them be a better player. He wasn't just going to make, make them popular. He was going to help them become better. And, and that's the key to, to becoming, uh, that forgot the coach and basketball coach in UCLA, but he was a similar way is that he would help his team. And so my focus at, at was to help people become better and, and, and not focusing on just winning, but helping them become a better person. You have a chapter in your book about micromanaging and you're calling it micromanaging redefined. And I have to tell you, I've been, you know, in program management and I've been accused many times of micromanaging in a negative way, you know, you know, checking on people every day or every hour, you know, have you done this? You know, where are you? You know, what's the status? Um, tell us a little bit how you redefined it, how you made it. So it's actually useful and, and it's a positive thing, of course, for the employee as well. So you can look at any word, two different ways. Uh, if you want to look at micromanaging as bad, then you'll, you'll come up with a bad way. But I looked at micromanaging in a positive way. In other words, it's a caring thing. So you're, if you, if you take care of the small things, the big things take care of themselves. So micro is small. Okay. So I was concerned about the small things. In other words, not letting the big things or small things become big things. And that's a key to, to micromanaging is taking care of the small things, the little things. Uh, and, and so it's, it's not doing their job. It's helping them do their job. That's micromanaging. Okay. Where, where you're not letting them do their job, where you're accusing them of not doing their job and you're trying to push, force your ideas in your way of doing it, that's the wrong kind of micromanaging. And so my concept of micromanaging is take care of the small things and the big things take care of themselves. And building rapport with people. Right. I also mentioned a CEO at that time that was having meetings at 2am in the morning. Do you want to share more on that? Well, Henry Singleton at Broadcom, he, uh, he was calling, he lived at the company. He, he, he was a divorced. He was not, not, not a very good family man. And, uh, he was mainly living as you would at the, at the office. So if he wanted to call a meeting, he'd call at two o'clock in the morning, expect you to come and, and, and have the meeting. Uh, and he was a very much a micromanager, uh, and, uh, uh, and he was not very kind to, to his staff recognizing their family needs and, and, and so forth. He just, if it's all about him, you know, it's all about me and not, not about you. Sound judgments. That's another chapter in your book. How do you make sound judgments? Can you talk about that? Then the first thing that comes to mind would be something, some things that happened during the COVID epidemic where sometimes the problem, the, the solution became worse than the problem. So talk to us about sound judgments. How do you, how do you teach that? How do you, you know, educate people to, to look into doing the right thing? Well, you have to understand the problem. The problem is the problem, as you would. And you have to look at the consequences of the problem. So what I do when I make a decision or when my, my employees want to get approval on a project, we look at the pros and the cons, the upside and the downside. There has to be an equal amount. In other words, you have to look at the equal number of good with the equal number of bad. So the consequences and in the pandemic, we didn't look at the downside. We only look at the upside. Oh, you know, six feet away, you know, uh, wearing masks. And, and so we didn't look at the downside. In other words, the students, the kids were staying home, right? So, so that's the problem with when you, when you look at sound judgment, you have to look at the bad, you know, the downside as well as the upside. And I, and I required my employees to have an equal number of downside as well as upside. So they looked at the consequences of what the decision that they were making. So that sound judgment is looking at both sides, equally upside and downside. So it's pretty much understanding the problem well, and be honest with oneself. So if you look at the downside, and that's the thing that we don't seem to work so hard at is looking at the downside, then you're liable to miss something that the consequences that's going to cause by your decision. So that was a problem during the pandemic as we didn't look at the downside, you know, the negative issue. You also talk about dealing with stress and distractions. Tell us your advice on that. Okay. So in life, you know, we're, we're all going to be ups, there's ups and downs, there's a peaks and valleys. And when you talk about stress, that's going to happen. That's, that's, that's when you're, you become overwhelmed with the consequences as you would in debate. What I learned was is that if I made my, my opponent angry and upset, he was more focused than on, on, on, on what I was saying on, you know, negative, and he would lose his train of thought. Okay, so that now we win the debate. That was always a good debate tool for me was, you know, get him angry, get him upset with himself, or with me, you know, and so he was focusing more on the stress rather than on on the good side. So if you can manage your stress, then you're more likely to stay on top of things. But if your stress, stress gets to you, then what's going to happen is, is that you're going to make bad decisions, or you're going to overlook something. And so that's the distraction. So in a debate, what you do is you get your opponent distracted. Okay, and that's how you win the debate. You mentioned four basic classes, people can take in college, it's going to make it effective, you know, as a leader in a company or in any way. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, so when I was working on my master's in 1960, or 64, starting in 64. I didn't have, I was an engineer by education, and I didn't have the college classes that I needed to get my master's in business at San Jose State, because they weren't offering master's degrees to non-business students. They were at other schools, Stanford and Santa Clara and so forth offered it, but at San Jose State, they didn't offer an MBA program as you would, it was just a master's in business. So I wanted to go to San Jose State because I, it was, didn't, I could do it part-time, and it didn't cost as much, and I was a young father, and so I chose to go to San Jose State, but I wasn't able to qualify because I didn't have the basic courses. And so to get a master's then at San Jose State at that time required me to take all these undergraduate classes, and that turned out to be a real winner, because my undergraduate classes in business were more beneficial to me than my, than the classes in the master's program. So the courses that really helped me out as a leader and as an entrepreneur was business law, economics, financial and managerial accounting, which is learning to read balance sheets and income statements, and then the fourth was accounting. Of course, you had to have accounting before you could take financial and managerial accounting. So again, business law, economics, financial and managerial accounting, learning to read a, you know, a financial statement, because that's the Bible. The financial statement's the Bible, and be able to do cash flow. And then the other one was accounting, having that basic knowledge of how, you know, credits and debits work. It's fascinating. So of course, Bay Area is so unique in the sense that technology is the leading aspect of what CEOs are involved with, and I would say the vast majority of CEOs have a tech background, which is probably different than most of the rest of the country. Do you agree with that? Then the need for having these extra classes, this extra knowledge in business becomes pretty crucial, right? It's mandatory. Yeah. You know, most people that start a business, especially in technology, are guys that are engineers. Exactly. And they just, they don't have any knowledge of business. And you know, we're living in a very litigious society, so there's going to be legal problems. That's why business law. And then, of course, economics, understanding. See, I used to do models. I used to be able to do financial models, so I could make sure I looked ahead five years to see where the economy was headed. Thus, I was able to then make the proper judgments preparatory for, because the economy goes up and down. Even to this day, I do a financial model that a lot of people review and look to as to forecast how the economy is going to do over the next five years. I still do that. So that was important in running a company was understanding economics. And then the other, of course, was being able to read the balance sheet and income statement were extremely important. Most CEOs don't even know what a balance sheet looks like. They don't know how it's put together. They have to hire a CFO. And the CFO is fine. But as a leader, if you don't understand what he's doing, you can get yourself in trouble. Okay, so you have to be able to understand financials. And that was very important. And then, of course, what goes into that is the deficit and credit system, the accounting aspects of it. And as a leader or as an entrepreneur, you tend to minimize the extra knowledge that you need to run the company. I want to switch gears and talk about being in shape. I think you've always been in good shape, now in your mid-80s, right? And there's rumors that you are able to do not just push-ups, but one-arm push-ups. Now, tell us about the importance of staying fit and being in good shape as you run a company. Well, the first thing that goes is your body, okay? And then if your body is not in good shape, your mind goes. So staying in good physical shape keeps your mind active. Getting a proper sleep, eating a proper diet, making sure you have recreation time in your busy schedule will help you maintain your physical prowess. Robert Kennedy, of course, is a big focus on that. I watched him do that forehand pull-ups. He's in his 70s, and he was doing those front-hand pull-ups. 20 of them, I think. He did 20 of them. Did he? Yeah. Excellent shape. Doing reversed is easier. Doing a front is harder. That's right. And he is in very good shape, okay? And so staying in shape, keeping your body physically strong is important for you and your family, but also for the company. So you had this schedule of working out early in the morning. Is that right? I worked out before I came to this podcast. So I lift weights for about a half hour, and then I'm on a treadmill for a half an hour. So about an hour. Every day? Every day. Now, I want to talk to you about your love for airplanes and for flying. Yesterday, we saw your airplane. We went inside. We checked it out. It's a very nice, cool piece of equipment. How did you get into flying, and what is it that excited you about this? For most people, it'd be kind of terrifying to be up in the air at 40,000 feet in a small plane. As a kid, I always liked making model airplanes. So I was always fascinated with models. And I used to fly radio-controlled airplanes. I used to build them from scratch, the balsa wood and the fabric on the wings. So I used to love flying model airplanes. I've always wanted to have an airplane. I mean, not a model, but a real functioning airplane that you can fly in. And I've always liked that. And so in 1980, a friend of mine took us in his airplane, and we flew down to Cabo St. Lucas, Mexico. And so I became very enthralled with flying. And I thought, well, I have some money. And so I decided to go and buy an airplane. And I bought a 1981 Warrior, which is a brand new four-passenger, very small airplane. And then I got my pilot's license actually flying that airplane, and sure became enthralled and loved to fly airplanes. That was my first airplane, was a 1981 Piper Warrior. And then I bought a 1985, I think it was a Piper Saratoga, which is a retractable landing gear. And then I bought a 1981 A36, Bonanza A36 turbocharged. These are bigger and bigger? Bigger and bigger, right. And so that led me up to 1994 when I lost my eyesight, and I had to sell the airplane because I no longer qualified for the medical to fly the airplane. But then in 2009, I got the itch to buy a jet, a small business jet. And the one I looked at, I was very disappointed in the quality of the plane that I was buying. And so I just stopped looking. But then in 2021, I got the itch again to go look at a, to buy a jet. And so I bought it in 19, I mean, 2021, I bought a Cessna CJ4 Citation, small business jet, holds 11 people, flies at 45,000 feet, a little over 500 miles an hour. I have it to this day. I love that airplane. That's the one we saw yesterday. The one that you saw yesterday. What would you say is the most important advice you got from your father? Never give up. Giving up is for losers. And so, and then being honest and have an ethical way of doing business. And so I would say, you know, never giving up. My father says, So, you know, there is some luck involved in life. But having that never give up attitude, you know, persistent. And that was very key. I'm the oldest of 11 children. And so, you know, having to do having to work since I've been 12. I've always had a job since I've been 12 years old. And never have stopped working since I've been 12. Even now I'm working. Even though I'm retired, I'm still working. So just having that winner attitude is what my father helped me focus on. Now let's talk about being an influencer. You know, obviously as a CEO of a major company and writing books, you are influencing people in many ways. Are you constantly aware of that? You know, people may watch your habits, may follow what you're doing in so many ways. So are you aware of that? What are the steps you're taking to, you know, kind of give that passion or that love for what you're doing to influencing others? Well, as you said, I'm in my, I'm actually in my late eighties, actually not in my mid eighties, I'm in my late eighties. And I'm still helping teaching at schools. I'm at seven universities. I still teach. I have a program called Zen Starter at the university where I help students become, you know, learn how to be entrepreneurs. And so I want to be an influence for good. My legacy is to help, always to, and mainly interested in helping the students. The up and coming generation is my focus. So that's my influence. I do, let's see how many podcasts. I do maybe five or 10 podcasts a month that I publish on my website, Tough Things First. I'm finishing my sixth book and starting on my seventh book. So I'm writing books that help people become better and how to improve themselves. Four of my books are what I call Zen of Zen. So Zen of Zen 1, 2, and 3, which are musings or thoughts for you to consider every day. And then I finished, there's one called The Bedside Zen of Zen, which is done by month. You can pick a topic for each month that you want to focus on. So I really want to focus on influencing people to be good, to do what's right, and to be the proper kind of example. I don't want anybody to think of me as being abusive or, you know, unthoughtful, unkind. So my focus is on being kind and thoughtful of others. And you mentioned something very interesting, how you don't have regrets because whatever problem or whatever mistake you made, you fix it right away and then you can consider it done. But with that said, is there a mistake that you made that you look back and you say, I wish I didn't do that? Well, I try not to dwell on that because I don't have any regrets. A regret is a problem you didn't fix. So if I didn't fix it, then I'm not following my own preaching as you would on being disciplined. Discipline is doing what you don't like doing and doing it well. So I try to fix everything. I try not to leave anything broken as you would. And I have no regrets. So learning to love the things you hate has been my focus. So if something I hate to do, I'll go do it until I learn to like it. Walter Emerson said, that which we persist in doing becomes easier, not that the nature of the task changes, but our ability to perform it becomes easier. So that's how I learned to overcome an obstacle is I just persist at it, never give up, constantly working at it. So I can truly tell you, Steve, that there's nothing that I hate. If I hate it, I'll work on it until I love it. So I just work on stuff that I hate doing so that I end up loving to do it. And so that's the consistency of never giving up and having discipline. In conclusion, I want to talk about a different topic about communism. My family and myself came from a communist country. I think your family has roots in a former communist country. You grew up to learn about communism. You dealt with China, with Russia. Yet in the United States, there seems to be an increase. And this is what surprised me coming to the US. There's been an increase to romanticize communism or in some way, say, people wanting to adopt it in some way. So I really wonder your thoughts on that, because there's a lot of young people out there who have this feeling. And you grew through life understanding this probably better than others. Well, in communism or the advanced state of socialism, you lose your free agency, your liberties. And what I admire and love most of all is my ability to decide for myself, not to be governed by someone else, but to be able to make my own decisions. In our country, in the United States, having that right to choose and recognizing the consequences of your choice is key. In the communist countries or the more socialistic countries, you don't have a choice. You can't choose where you go to school. You can't choose, you know, where you want to live. You can't choose what kind of job you want. It's a loss of liberty. And I think it's because of liberty and free agency is what gives us ingenuity. So free agency and ingenuity go together. And so the other, the communist countries or the highly socialistic countries, they don't, they're not creative at all because they're not taught to be creative. Okay. So they copy, you know, when you copy, you're stealing. Okay. And so to me, you know, that's, that's dishonest. And I don't know how you can be honest as a communist or as a high, high socialist, as you would. But why would you say the youth in, in, in this country, not just youth, but others are drawn into this ideology? Because they look at it as this concept of, of all men are created equal. So they think that, that this DEI, you know, diversity, equity, and inclusion is all part of being created equal, but we're not equal. Okay. I'm short. Some of the people are tall. Some people are, are, are dark colored. Some people are light colored. Some people are, are educated. Some people are not educated. We are not equal. We, we physically, we look the same, you know, eyes, ears, mouth, and, you know, we're human. So in that way, we're all equal. Humans are equal. We're not elephants. We're not giraffes. We're, we're humans. Okay. And so in that way, we're equal, but in no other way, are we equal? You know, we don't have same physical attributes as far as, you know, height, weight, so forth. Some are women, some are men, female, male, you know, so, and some, some die at birth and some live to be in their hundreds. And so we're not all equal. Okay. But we, we have to, an equal status, I mean. And so the young people, because it looks like we're making everybody equal, making them equal is communism. You know, when we force, that's, again, the word that, that, that the young people don't understand is, is, is communism is forcing. They're forcing you to be equal. And that's the challenge is letting, getting the youth to understand that they will lose their agency. They will lose their freedoms if they follow a socialistic or communistic type of, of lifestyle. If Marx or any of the communist leaders, if they wanted to define communism as diversity, equity, inclusion, that's what's attractive to the youth because they, they like equal. They like everybody in the world being at the same level. Okay. And that sounds good. Doesn't it? It's how the DEI sounds good, but it's not practical. If that makes sense. It's, it's not a practical way to live. And, and so that's the problem that we have is, is that it, it's, it has a good ring. It sounds good, but it's not. Well, I think the issue is what encourages one to do a better job, to, to work harder, to strive for excellence. If, if there's no motivation, if there's no reward for, for doing better, why would anyone do better? You know, I mean, unfortunately humans are, you know, they're not perfect. They have frailties, they have, you know, ways of being, getting lazy. So if, if you don't reward success, then it's going to be hard to see it. That's the problem with communism. Okay. They, it makes you lazy because everything's given to you. There's no free lunch, but it makes it sound good. Okay. Everybody being equal, everybody being included sounds good, but it's not practical. And so, you know, we, we talked about several years ago about building walls, you know, the, the border, you know, fences, but yet we have fences around our own homes. Okay. We have locks on our doors. You know, we have guns to protect us. We have, you know, we, we, there's no such a thing as, as there's no borders. We have borders. Even, even you and I today have, have borders. We have, you know, limits that we're willing to, to, to not cross as you would. And so that's the challenge is, is, is getting the kids to understand that we do have boundaries. You know, we have speed limits. We have, you know, laws that, that, that limit what we do so that we know the consequences if we exceed those limits as you would. So borders and walls are good for the right reason. Okay. So, you know, we have to consider the, the negative aspects of diversity, equity, inclusion, as well as a positive. There are positives. Okay. But then they're also very, the negatives are so great. And unfortunately, because we are human, we don't look at the negative aspects of it enough to understand that the problems that are going to be caused, if we enforce, if we force, I'm saying force the diversity, equity, inclusion, and that's what we're doing. We're trying to force it, the younger generation, because they have nothing to lose in their mind. You know, they're living at home. They're, they're just going to school. They don't have a job. And so to them, you know, you know, it, it sounds good, but in reality, it's not. What would you say is the biggest challenge that young people are facing right now? And what would be your advice to them? They're looking at their parents and they're saying their parents have a home. They have a job and, and they're, they're saying to be doing okay. The challenge that the, that the young people, they're not seeing that they're not seeing they have their own home. They're not seeing marriage. They're seeing a lot of high divorce rate. So they're seeing marriage as being bad. And so they're, they're seeing a lot of bad examples because of social media. You know, back in my day, there was no social media. And, and, and so you weren't misled by things that look correct. In other words, with AI, artificial intelligence, we can make things look good that are bad. And the, the children are not being taught well at home. The parents are not recognizing the impact that social media is having on their children. And as a consequence, it's social media that's raising our children, not the parents. Parents have got to shut those social media off or limit it. Okay. And focus on raising their children themselves, not letting social media raise their children. So it's an uphill battle because the parents who want to do what you're saying, they're fighting against this huge institutions, which are Facebook and Instagram and all these other things. Well, I think there's legislature out there that's trying to limit certain kinds of things, TikTok and others getting to our children. If the parents don't take control of that social media, then the social media is going to take control of our children. And that's the downside. And it's going to make it even worse with AI. Elon Musk recently said that he wishes AI be pushed out always. We're not ready for AI. It's happening too quickly and the problems, the negative side of AI is taken over. And so if you don't control what your children are watching and seeing, then social media is going to control it. I just really am emotional about this, but I just wish our young people, I have 22 grandchildren and 19 great-grandchildren. So I have a posterity that while I'm still alive, I'm trying to teach them correct principles so they can govern themselves. I want them to be honest and forthright in their lives, transparent in the way they live their lives and focus on others rather than yourself. It's more important outwardly than what you have inwardly. Okay. So do what's right. Don't focus on you. Focus on others. Be kind and gentle and understanding of other people. Ray, we thank you so much. Appreciate your time. Any final thoughts? Go Epic Times. You've got a great media solution and I'm just so proud to be part of it. And I just hope that I've had some value and help for Epic Times. You're a good media. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was awesome. Thank you for watching another episode of Bay Area Innovators. If you enjoyed this episode and you know someone who should be on our show, please send us an email at sfbay at epictimes.com. We would love to hear from you. Thank you and see you next week.