Julia Roberts & Sean Penn | Actors on Actors

Why shouldn't people be ashamed of things? Hold on to it for a while and then, you know, re-enter with some more humility. I love the way your brain works. I just love your train of thought. I might be the last of the generation that doesn't go to bed at 10 or put skin cream on before bed. And I know that that's a dermatology problem for some. Hi, Sean. Nope, see, this is my point. I think this is a sort of a hybrid because you and I are going to start a conversation like we do. Right. And then there's the fact that there's all these people and there's cameras. So I don't think we should fall for it. Okay. Because then we become puppets. We'll have a different conversation than maybe just in the color or some of the language than we would have. I'm so happy right now. Because some things are not meant to be listened in on and they don't have to have lack of innocence. Ours are traditionally very innocent and exploratory. But we know these cameras are here. Should we pretend like they're not here? No, let's constantly remind them that they're here. Okay. How many years do you think we've known each other? I think I know the answer. It's easily, well, oh, no, it's going to be, yeah, no, I'm thinking now back New York, Mayflower Hotel during the shooting of the Pope of Greenwich Village. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Yeah. So this is over 40 years. This is over 40 years ago, yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, you were Eric's little sister. Yes, I still am. I remember exactly because I'd heard about you. Oh, God. Okay. And, yeah, but you must have been about, I don't know, like a teenager. 16, I think. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, so it's been a while. Here we are. Yeah, here we are. Buds. Neighbors, buds. All right. We have to check a few boxes. And I am legitimately curious to know a few things about one battle after another. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, let's get that stuff over with. Yeah, okay. Not get it over with. Let's get it started. Yeah, let's get this fun over with and let's get this questioning started. But, yeah. So just meeting each other. As I have present in my mind after the hunt. So you can start. Okay. Because I have never met Paul Thomas Anderson. How did you meet him to start with? Because this is your second movie with him. It's kind of funny because my brother, Michael, scored his first two movies. Okay. So I knew he was working with this young director on the movie that had been Sydney and then became Heart 8. Michael called me and it was 1990 because I just directed the first time I had directed a movie. And so Michael thought I might have some advice for Paul. And I've been thinking about it today, you know. Yeah, I've got some notes for Bergman. But I do think I had enough restraint. I spoke to him. You did. But I don't think that I offered advice. Except I had a go-to quote at the time, which was, always consider the possibility that everyone else is wrong. And he stuck to it. So I've known him since then a little. And then we ran into each other places. And then he and I were both working on Heon, There Will Be Blood, and I was on Into the Wild, both at Skywalker Ranch. So we started spending time up there together and became friends and talked about working together a time or two before that. And then this last couple of them gelled. That is fabulous. I mean, to be in a working environment and then just to kind of have social time together while you're both... Yeah, it was good because that place is very good that way. It's very out in the middle of the sticks. You know, they even have housing for, I think Paul was staying in the housing on site. I was living in the area. I don't think there were any other filmmakers there at the time. So you had this big expanse of kind of nature around you and a lot of deer and other cattle that they had on the ranch. And then these, you know, top of the line post-production facilities and staff. What kind of environment does he create for actors on a set? Is it happy and jovial or is it quiet? Does he play music? Like directors bring the vibe with them to kick it off. And I'm sort of curious about his. The first thing he does, there are great, great directors, of course, who aren't writers. But when a great director is also a great writer, then the first thing he did is when he gave you the script and you're having that experience. With him, it's always gonna be so fresh. I had no idea what he was taking on. So that's the first thing. And then there's nothing at all performative about him as a director. There's nothing letting everyone know who's the director or the boss or any of that. And in fact, he doesn't want that from anybody. There's no, you know, no big trailers. Leo and I shared a double banger, you know, unless you bring somebody on your own docket, there's nobody to say, hey, could you get me a coffee? Get your own coffee, you know? And I liked it a lot that way. It was, everything was just focused on the movie. Very relaxed. He, you know, he fights for, or he has the support for, I'm sure both were true, the time that he really needs to make his movie. So you don't feel like you're coloring in by the numbers. You know, you're really getting to realize that moment when you got to read that thing and see it in your own head and then, you know, all the surprises of what he's gonna bring with the other actors that the crew bring. So the answer to the question is, he brings the, I think, you know, what we as actors thrive on. And just, it leaves it to the core of what we're doing there in the storytelling. Did you do a lot of takes? Sometimes we did. I don't think we ever didn't. I think he's constantly exploring. He has great confidence in his writing, but at the same time, more often than not when there would be a change, it would be him having more confidence in it and thinking, you know, we don't need all this. Right. And he was throwing away gems every day. Wow. I think rightly. Many times I might've questioned it, either silently or otherwise, but in seeing the film, I didn't think he was ever off. I think he, you know, he's a great director. Because you're in love with me and you can't live without me. I'm curious, and knowing you, and actually, more interestingly, my children knowing you so well and seeing this movie and being so knocked out, I just wanna know where did you start building the physical three-dimensional character? My experience of it was, it was all in the script. I started to feel the movement of the guy from what he wrote. I was giggling a lot. The more challenging things were for the fellow I played. And I've always struggled with, when we talk about where our work comes from and all of that and feeling like maybe, you know, it should just be on its own and all. But I don't struggle on this one at all. It was so clear to me that I had such a great experience reading that script that I don't wanna get in any audience's way on it. I don't wanna get into all that kind of stuff. But the overall process stuff with him as a director on that and what I could tell on Liquor's Pizza and what I've heard from others is he's always like this and yeah, he's just what you'd want, I guess, as a director. He's a touched guy. Do you feel like, I mean, you've been a director a long time now, but do you feel that when you are acting in something that you're not directing, is it hard to put director thoughts away? Not when you were the real director. Okay. I never questioned where the camera was. I knew I was in great hands the whole time. I knew that whatever piece of me he had was all he, he commits. He'll spend a lot of time. He'll have time to, let's say, do the classic coverage and come around on things. But when he's committed to your back, he's gonna stay on your back. I don't think masterfulness is too big a word. When it comes to cinema, I think he's masterful. The fact that he doesn't hide in shadows and talk in an extremely low voice doesn't mean that he's not a master. So I think you feel that. I think you feel it. After The Hunt, I have a lot of thoughts about this movie. I love this subject. I struggle to watch it because it's, because I get angry and I have positions on different characters in the thing. But let's, first of all, what about Luca? What about that process? Because I've been admiring his on other films and so on. And so I've wondered about him. I think I told you I met him briefly at the film festival. What was that experience like? I, too, have admired him. And I am so intrigued by all of his movies and they're so different. And you just kind of think, who is this guy? And I met him once briefly at an event. And when this movie came to me, and I was reading it and sort of pondering things, and then I get the call, well, like, maybe Luca Guadagnino is interested in this. And just every cell inside of me perked up because that's a movie that I am interested in seeing, his interpretation of this, which I was reading. And honestly, we had such a joyful, I can speak for my castmates because we've had these conversations, such a joyful experience, like a happy set, which seems incongruous to what we were doing. And I remember Luca saying to me one day, he said, this is the first time I've ever been happy on a set. And I said, I find that impossible to believe because he's so joyful. He has so much happiness. And my experience with him was complete and I mean, I probably talked to him every week since this movie finished. I can't say that about any director. And I am friends with directors that I've worked with more than once. And I think the only person that I ever had a really continuous conversation with was Mike Nichols. But he's just really, really smart about so many things. I'm always interested in what he's gonna say about anything, about this plant or this carpet. But there had been, it's interesting because the subject being what it is, there had to have been philosophical debates, generational and gender differences in the conversation. And yet that played out still with a joyous set. Well, we had a lot of conversations in the beginning, similar to when we worked together and you and Matt Ross came over and sat at my kitchen table. Luca and Andrew and Io and Chloe came to our house and sat for days and days and days at our kitchen table. And we had all these conversations and what I realized, really bright people are not in, don't jockey for their position. They share their ideas and their feelings and then they listen intently. It's the listening that I feel we've gotten the farthest from in culture because I feel like conversations get so intense so quickly and you're just waiting for that break in the other person so that you can say, okay, but this is why I'm right. This is why what I believe is better. And it was so nice to have the time and to be with, I think, truly bright people and hearing what everybody had to say about everybody's characters. And we didn't necessarily tell all our characters secrets in that I think Luca knew what we all felt about everything but we didn't necessarily tell each other but it was just a great playground of thought. And he really led that in a way I'd never experienced quite like that before. Everything is supposed to make you comfortable. King Kong ain't got nothing on me lying in the movie of not everything is supposed to make you comfortable. I was ready to go. It was okay. Thank God somebody's saying this. I'm feeling, I've been thinking lately that partly provoked by that film that there's a kind of, we're in this time of a lot of talk therapy, a lot of what I'd call kind of like the trauma industry and all. And I was thinking, on one hand we might say about certain figures of leadership today, has he no shame? And yet we're the ones saying, no, no, we don't want to promote shame. I think shame is underrated these days. It's really got a bad name in this decade. Why shouldn't people be ashamed of things? Hold on to it for a while and then reenter with some more humility. Not just reenter, not just pay for some school to be built somewhere and reenter. No, real shame. Real humility. And real humility. I like that idea. But it is a provocative movie and I know that it got some provocative reactions and people had a lot of... And I just thought it was so refreshing that somebody, especially this sort of a tour filmmaker to do that and with you. Did you, when you met him, did you suggest that you would be interested in working together at some point? It was very brief when we met and he was with Tilda, who I adore and admire and like so much. And my favorite Luca movie is Bigger Splash. And so great. And she's so great in it. And Rafe is so great in it. He's great in everything. He really is. He's a consummate. But you know, Tilda is too. She's one of those that is always gonna just blow the doors off, whatever. And be different than anyone else. Yeah. Would be. When we first had a conversation about doing After the Hunt together and we were both going to be in Los Angeles and so we were trying to see each other and it wasn't really working out. And as fate would have it, we ended up at the same party. Danny and I went to a party and he got off work and he came to the same party and we saw each other and we walked over and hugged and sat down and spent the next hour and a half just talking with our faces practically pressed together with this bustling party going on around us about, well, we could do it like this and then she could be like that and then what if this happened and what if this happened? And it's the fastest I have ever boarded a train that left the station with a destination. You have it in you. I smelled it from within her. I can smell it from within you. She was a ******* rat. She was a warrior, a righteous warrior of freedom. With the Paul movie, you know, by the time he sent me the script, he already had Leo on board. So Leo, who I'd wanted to work with, I'd known him since he was 15 and we'd almost done several movies together over the years and then Paul and then I read, I think I was on page 15 by the time I had a start date. I just called and said, I don't care where this goes, I'm in. This is, it was killing me. That's great. Isn't it nice to feel that way? Because it's so rare. I mean, I would imagine every script has your fingerprints on it and I can just see you tossing them out of the back door of that little room where I'm imagining you. What's true about that is that the scripts that do have my fingerprints, I either did them or you won't find fingerprints after page 10. Really? If I sense artifice, it hits a pet peeve, which happens more often than not and I don't keep reading. I have to finish. Well, you're more diligent than I am. I'm not, I just think something might happen. Well, the only thing that could happen and I might ask the person this before I said this, is there a moment where they admit that we were in a dream and it was all artificial for the first 10 pages? No. Exactly. Which could have happened, like for example on, not to do with anything I was involved in, but when I saw Mulholland Drive the first time, I thought that would have been worth reading on because it's in that kind of all, you know, in the imagination and you think that you're being presented with a real or a stylized real world and it was neither, yeah. Has there ever been a movie that you passed on that then you saw it and thought, maybe I made a mistake? I don't think so. Yeah. And it doesn't mean, because I might have read the whole thing and thought it was really good also and not done it for whatever reason, but I don't think I've ever regretted. No, I would have to have had the experience of making it and have it be miserable before I could regret it that way, but without having the good experience, I don't miss having not had it. I love the way your brain works. I just love your train of thought. Yeah, I'm not, I have regretted doing movies, but I've never regretted not doing one and with any luck, I'm better at those selections now than in the past. Do you have any idea how many movies you've been in? Well, if you dig, if it's a tech, do you? I could ballpark it because someone told me not that long ago and I was so surprised and based on when that was, I could probably ballpark it at a very surprising number. What would that number be? I think like 55 maybe. See, if we include where we did a small thing and something with everything all in, I think it's about 100. Oh, well done. 65, yeah. That's a lot of ******* movies. Yeah, too many. Not enough for me. Well, it's never enough of good things. I did, you know where you take it, maybe you're doing a friend a favor and you think it's gonna be okay and it's not. Or you think you're doing them a favor and you're not because you weren't really involved enough to give yourself all the way to it. There's something like I've caught myself of that a few times. I don't like that feeling. No. Yeah, a lot. It's a lot. That's impressive. You're impressive. You just have to take it. You just have to accept this right now. You are impressive. You know, people don't know what I do. I know that you, okay, so it's fair to say that Richard Harris used to claim this, but I get to claim it now in terms of somebody who's done a lot of movies and is now about the age he was when he said something like this, but I might be the last of a generation that doesn't go to bed at 10 or put skin cream on before bed. And I know that that's a dermatology problem for some, but impressive is that when somebody can handle their own poetic inspirations as you do with your gifts, the capacity for not only as an actress, but in terms of sharing joy, the retention of people in your world's special days. You know that there were two years where your call saying what time should the cake be ready was the only thing that reminded me it was my mother's birthday? Shut up. Raising these kids that are so extraordinarily well-rounded from the time they were little, so direct with, and in a job that traditionally relies on people living in their own head. And so congratulations on that. Well, let me congratulate you on just taking the conversation from being about you and going right back on it. Because then it becomes a social experiment of two people complimenting each other for money. We're not getting, are we getting paid? I'm not getting paid. Thank you, thank you. No, I think you're a phenomenon. My mom always used to sit down, you know, she would light up and you would come around. And then you've got this great husband who is my favorite cinematographer. I know, mine too. I feel like that's where, in the scope of life, and I go, where do I share the most understanding? Where do I feel the most understood and seen and felt by Sean Penn? It's my love of Danny Motor. Well, I remember you telling me you were doing a movie and Danny was, he was hand-holding a camera and he would scoot himself into a tight little practical set and I'm thinking of what I think of as like, okay, the camera man and operator, he's doing both, is focused on his work and getting in a corner. And, but then followed by the description that that was the sexiest thing on earth. And I thought. Okay. I do have some questions for you, but now I'm afraid to ask them. Yeah, but you know, remember, I can help you because you know how when you come in my house and you will not look at my paintings? Yes. I don't mean paintings that I did, but you know. The art in your house. The art in my house. I shield myself. You could focus more on that part of me in this. Then we'd avoid the standard, like, you know. When are you gonna do something about that? I've done it in the sense that it's there. It's not in the same, you've seen that it's now more for my eyes than. Really? That's for you. Thank you. So that when you go from the front door out to where we're barbecuing, whatever. I don't have to do this. You don't have to be surrounded by it. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. I appreciate that. Yes, but it's safe. Well, see, but I don't find it haunting. I remember introducing the artist to Jack Nicholson and Jack Nicholson, who I showed a lot of the paintings to. And his first words to Godfrey Dunvine, the painter, were, Godfrey, something about hangability. That's a great quote. Who is the first, speaking of Jack Nicholson, who is the first big-time actor type that you met that just knocked your socks off? Well, it sort of goes to when I was in high school. Anthony Zerbe came and did a career day talk. And he was an acclaimed figure in my household because my parents were fans of him and his work. And he did movies, but he also did a lot of television in the 70s. So I knew his face very well. I knew my father knew him and had worked with him. And so I was really interested, because I had never thought about being an actor until my senior year of high school. Really? Yeah, and really only as a way to direct movies, because that's what I was already starting to hobby in, Super 8 movies. And I liked what I would have thought of as film grammar. And by that, it was like, what's the composition? Not so much lenses, because you were pretty much stuck with your zoom on that thing. But what the composition and cuts that I'd like to see, or that I respond to as an audience in movies to get this impact or to get that impact. So I wanted to do that, but I saw acting as a way to stow away on the plane, to get in there. That's interesting. Yeah, and he got me more interested. So there was something like that. And then when I was very much in the beginning of working in films, I had circumstances to meet and get close to some of the people who were the kind of epic figures of the time, Robert De Niro and Jack and others. And they were so generous about stuff, and that continued on. And I also found that the kind of cinema that they were coming from in that period of American film had so much to do with why I was interested in film. And so when I say generous, they were generous in sharing their experiences of it, and a lot of the inspirations, and a lot of the other people in front of and behind the camera that were fundamental to the impact that those movies had on me. Do you remember the first movie that you saw that just you thought, yep. I think when I was ready to take a serious movie seriously, it was probably Lenny. And I knew that it was the same director that had done Cabaret. And I kind of got a real sense of what separates people like that. And that was Bob Fosse, obviously. And that really got me excited. I think that landed first. Just how different, how somebody could tell such complete stories. Yeah. Wow, what a person to land on. Yeah, but like I said, that predates me identifying that I wanted to work in film. Right. I think that would have been a foundational thing ready to absorb that. And so then, I think probably it was Badlands in terms of when I said, okay, I want to direct movies. And you worked with Terrence Mack. Yeah, it's why I asked you about Luca that way, because I've done that a couple of times over the years where, two times I think I've right off the bat, where I met a director that I admired a lot. And I said, give me $1 and tell me where I gotta go. And that was Terry Malick and Alejandro Gonzalez Sr. Rio. Wow. Oh, and Sorrentino, three times. $3. Yeah. I met Terrence Malick once, and I was so in awe and smitten. And we had just the sweetest conversation. And he seemed like somebody that you might have walked into a diner and sat down at a counter. And that was the man sitting next to you. And you had a conversation while he drank black coffee and you ate a cheeseburger. And then he left and you just thought, wow, what an interesting man. I mean, he's so unassuming. And you wouldn't- He is, he is. I mean, I'm sure you know much better than that. Well, I made two movies with him, and he is such a kind person. And such a, I think there's genius in him. And also a very strong, or increasingly over the years, spiritual pursuit, which I didn't always know how to track as it related to the storytelling that we were doing. But I do remember one night when we were all shooting on the Thin Red Line in Port Douglas, Australia. So it's where the rainforest meets the Great Barrier Reef. It was a one street town with like seven restaurants, all of them great. And we were all out at one of the actors and Terry. And I remember saying to whoever was sitting next to me, I said, I don't see the guy. I never see the guy that made Badlands. Where's the sociopath? Where's the guy who understands the sociopath? A little later in the night, because Terry wouldn't drink often. And we got him to have a few, I don't know if he was drinking wine or beers and maybe a little Cobra cocktails or something. And he started drinking a little and then people were talking about practical jokes. And Terry had been quiet most of the night. And all of a sudden I heard Terry say, he has a way of talking up in here a little bit. He said something like, oh, oh, did you ever do the Statue of Liberty? And he described the Statue of Liberty as when he was, because he was a Rhodes Scholar and a Harvard grad and did a lot of things in his life before he directed journalism. And he described when they would be studying up for their finals at Harvard. And they'd all be in the study hall of the library to whatever hour of the night and passing out in chairs. And he and his friends would go and get like a tuna can and fill it with lighter fluid and put it on a little stand of books next to the person who was asleep and have their hand in it and light it on fire to which they'd wake up like the Statue of Liberty. And I thought, there he is. I saw this look in his eye when he was describing the fun they took doing that. I said, okay, now we've seen the guy that made Badlands. Wow, that's crazy. Badlands is such a brilliant movie. And Hazel just saw this movie and she said, oh my God, mom, I saw this movie, Badlands. I was like, it's one of the greatest movies ever made. And I just think the first thing I always think of is Sissy Spacek on the front porch. When he's like, what are you doing? She goes, just doing some Spanish homework. Yeah, all those very simple. Yeah, it's beautiful. It is beautiful. You know what we didn't talk about is, let's talk about that marriage in After the Hunt. Let's. Because that's a lot of interesting. Yeah. Yeah, you tell me about it. Well, Michael Stuhlbarg, he's one of these actors that is always good. And you can always rely on him to be very good and very interesting in whatever part he's playing. I said I love him and I love you. This part in the script, no offense to anyone, not the most interesting part in the script. I say that because what Michael does in the movie is what he created, what he mined out of thin air and strands. I was on the daily completely surprised with what he was doing and how he was doing it. And it very quickly made me realize this relationship that we really, particularly my character, that I could just really lean into it and rely on it. And it was the bedrock of Alma was having Frederick in all those ways and all the looks and all the jokes and then the petulance. I just think he's so good in it. And what he was doing made all the difference to me and what I was trying to accomplish. And God, he just approaches things also so differently than me, which I found so fascinating to see. His approach is very tidy. I mean, I just think about his script and it's very neat and he has these lines and then there's some squiggly lines that are also very neat. And I joke and say, my script looks like it's been in the hamster cage for a couple of days and I couldn't find it or something. It's just like the chaos of all the dog ears and writing things down. And I just, I said to him one day, I go, I want you to explain all of this to me. And he said, happy to. And did he? No. He's not gonna do all of that. He's worked in the theater quite a bit also. A lot, and actually the beginning rehearsal time that we had at our house, he did not come to because he was doing a play on Broadway. And in the end, I mean, we missed him terribly because this was all of us getting to know each other for the first time. And he said to me not that long ago, he said, you know, I think it really was valuable that I wasn't there during the kind of camp phase of building these relationships because Frederick really is on the fringe of this whole thing. And he likes to set up the dinner party and sort of strike the match and see what catches on fire. It's sort of entertaining to him. And so I think Michael was happy that he wasn't part of those joyous, sweet beginnings so that he did feel a little left out in a way that was helpful to him. Yeah, I mean, I felt like the dynamic of it, thinking back after seeing it all the way through, it should have been a giveaway about baggage on both sides of some kind. Because we do see relationships, a lot of relationships are like that. It seems like a nightmare on the outside, but it's almost like a needed nightmare. When we find out what the nightmares of the past are, you realize like this is all easy given it's an anchor. What about Soderbergh? Steven Soderbergh, the way that he directs to me perfectly aligns with the way that I act. It is really intentional and there's a momentum that is really meaningful to him. And once he has what he wants, then we go do something else. I mean, he just has it all in his head to start with. It's not, I mean, I think there's, you know, he's open to whatever anybody needs. But once he sees it, he goes, that's great. That's what I wanted. I'm ready to move on. Is he the same director on Aaron Brockovich and on an Ocean's 11? Yes, except the scale was, you know, I mean, in Aaron Brockovich, there would be two of us in a scene or maybe if we were in the office, there might be six people in a scene. And at Ocean's 11, there's six people in every scene. That's the smallest amount of us you're gonna have. Or, you know, it was just, and we were in bigger places with more stuff, but he was the same in his exactitude. He is shooting everything. And he's very, he's very focused. He's very serious. He never leaves the set. He doesn't have a trailer or a room or anything. He is on the set every minute of the day. And I like that there's something in his approach that's very simple. This is, we have a simple task and this is what it is. And then you accomplish that task and you go to the next one, even though it's not simple. And the layers of what he does are really complex and interesting, but just the, I don't know. I find him really fascinating. And I mean, when we did Aaron Brockovich, we finished ahead of schedule and under budget. And there were days that we would be done at like five in the afternoon. We had filmed everything. The efficiency of it is inspiring. Tell me if I'm wrong, but my understanding, he has kind of a command on all, of all the levels of filmmaking, whether he could be his own editor or DP or. He has all those things. Yeah, he does it all. And I think that's where it gets, in a way, kind of simple, which is the wrong word because it makes it sound sort of sophomoric, but it's. It is simpler for us. Because it's one person. One person inhabiting all of these jobs that the, and therefore the, basically, the control of one's performance is in one person's hands that you have complete faith and trust in. And yeah, I mean, I've, I think, made four movies with Steven. I just think he's the greatest. I would truly do anything with him. I think the last movie that he hired me for, he said, oh yeah, I've got this script. I'm gonna send it to you. And I go, I'm in. He goes, no, no, I want you to read it first. I go, I'll read it, but I know I'm gonna do it. Like, just look at it. And it was the craziest ******* thing I've ever read. But there I was, loving every minute of it. Well, we need more of those directors. Yeah, for sure. Goodbye, Julia. I'll see you at dinner in 10 minutes. Goodbye, Sean. You're the all-time. No, you are. No. Yeah, you are. No, see, you mess mine up when you say that. But you don't like my paintings. I don't, I really don't. All right, that's it, goodbye.