If You're Not Making Money From Email - WATCH THIS

So, 2-3% of your website traffic actually converts. 97-98% lose this traffic. And usually you pay for the traffic. You pay for Meta, you pay for Google. Where should I focus first? Always have to convert into subscribers. 2-3% convert directly. Another 2-3% that you would convert into your subscribers. You double the amount of your visitors that leave you a second chance to convert them a little bit later. Today's guest is Redis Loras, co-founder of Omniscent. They go to email and SMS platform for e-commerce brands. With over 125,000 customers worldwide. For every dollar you spend, how much should your return on investment be? $40 for $1 spend. Last year, we generated $68 back for every dollar spent. It's a big impact. Last year, we generated more than $2 billion for our customers. Hear the stories, learn the proven methods, and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship. Welcome to the Founder Podcast with Nathan Chandler. Redis, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. You're dialing in all the way from Lithuania. Thanks for inviting. Really great to be here. Really great to talk to you. So I have no doubt it will be an interesting conversation with you. You guys are experts in e-commerce and business in general as well. Really looking forward. Thank you for taking the time, man. Look, you've got this incredible platform. I want to talk about your background. You started in political science and then you moved to SaaS. You started your first business at 14. What pulled you into the world of entrepreneurship? How did those early experiences help you build Omniscent? You're well-informed. Formally, I have graduated political science but never worked in that area. My first business touch was probably the first lesson that I learned. Don't say no for the opportunities once they arise. So the first business was not my idea and I just joined as a smaller co-founder. Basically, my friend of mine just made me call and said, look, I have an idea. What do you think about us starting a business? And I said, oh, that sounds really great. I'm going to be a businessman. Maybe I will become rich, being young, etc. And it was not actually the case. As usually, it takes a bit more time than you expect things to happen. But that was an opportunistic approach and I didn't know how to... Okay, my mom, she has an optic shop and private practice. So I helped being a teenager here with a business side, etc. So I felt a little bit and touched a little bit of this. But still, joining a new business or starting or co-founding a new business was a lot of lessons to be learned, etc. So since then, I'm always running some businesses. And prior to Omniscent, I had two startup attempts. Failed twice. Then getting back to more, as I call, extender business. And finally, Omniscent was a spinoff from Digital Marketing Agency as well. So I used to run Digital Marketing Agency, just basically selling hours, creative solutions, as well as development hours. And among our customer base were the online stores as well. And this is how we identified that those who sell online, they have unique capabilities as well as unique opportunities to better retain their customers via email. That was email primarily. And then we added, to what you mentioned, we added SMS, we added web push notifications. We had other channels as well as Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, Viber. But we duplicated because they did not work at that time, as well as we expected, our customers expected, etc. Yeah, so that's kind of the prehistory, short prehistory of Omniscent. So how did you identify that there was a demand for the product? There's a lot of ESPs out there. Oh, yeah. This is a red ocean, you know. By the theory of blue oceans, we should have never launched Omniscent because there was already a crowded market and it still is a crowded market. Basically, we made two assumptions. First one, that those who sell online, they have a unique opportunity to better retain customers with a data-driven automated communication. Because the entire customer journey is happening online, as we, as a tool or marketers, we are just a tool for marketers, we have way more digital signals that we can track. And based on those signals, we can run a better marketing campaigns. So all the exploration is happening online, the purchase itself is happening online, and the post-purchase experience is happening online as well with reviews, satisfaction surveys, etc, etc. And of course, repeated purchase is happening online as well. So that was the first assumption, that the value that could be created for customers is just massive. And second assumption was that e-commerce will be growing in the upcoming decades. And it kind of proved to be right. And then we focused on Melchior, which was really dominating the market by far back in those days. But it was, and still is, a generic email service provider. It's a great competitor, it's a great solution. We learned a lot from that business, and I appreciate that business a lot because it's bootstrapped, as we are bootstrapped as well. So we kind of follow in many ways their ideology, past ideology, maybe not the current one anymore. And we thought, okay, so building this niche product, which is in a big enough niche, can really help us establish a business and grow business, what apparently was right. Like those who sell online, we have specific needs, and OmniSend is serving that specific customer group. We're not the best solution for church, for school, for weekend clubs or so. We are the best solution for those who sell online. And it's mainly physical products, right? It used to be mainly physical products. It's not the case anymore, because the definition of e-commerce is changing and it's getting broader. So it used to be mainly physical products. They still are mainly physical products, but if you sell tickets, concert tickets, even if you sell bookings, probably kind of the newest example, like booking service, you are booking an appointment, doctor appointment, a barber appointment, it is e-commerce because everything, more or less everything is exactly the same as you are selling physical products, except of you receiving a parcel. You are going to take the product, to take the service in this case. The rest is more or less the same. Discovery is happening online. Quite often even like the purchase is happening online because you pay in advance for the booking and then post-purchase experience, like customer satisfaction, service, all the things are happening online. So the definition of e-commerce is broadening. So we are serving all those different kinds of e-commerce, but vast majority of customers, of course, are selling physical products. Mainly running off Shopify per se, or WooCommerce or BigCommerce. Shopify, WooCommerce are two biggest platforms where our customers are on by far. We integrate with other platforms as well, like Wix, BigCommerce, as you mentioned, etc. Another platform is quite a long list, smaller platforms, local or regional ones as well. But yeah, those two are the main ones. Okay, so our community, early stage e-com founders, either just working on something, just about to launch something, or they've recently hit product market fit. So similar to you guys, small, SMB, also some mid-market in there as well. So people watching this, what would you say to them when it comes to email marketing and really capitalizing on this multi-channel approach, right? From what you see from customers, how much email marketing in terms of a channel, for every dollar you spend, how much should your return on investment be? Because I've seen statistics saying you should be making at least $1 for every subscriber on your list per month. What's your take there? What do you guys see? What's the size of the opportunity if you're a founder? So on average, it's like last year's statistics, throughout the year we generated $68 back for every dollar spent. So return on investment is that big. Usually like other statistics that we see in the market is around that, you know, at least $40 for $1 spend. This is what you have to aim at. So on average, among omniscient customer base, we see way higher. Of course, it depends. Like, you know, while just launching and maybe your subscriber list is very small, et cetera, you should not expect that good of the numbers. They will grow if you continue doing. So for those who are just maybe starting, maybe small, et cetera. So my main advice would be, it's never too early to start doing retention marketing, email marketing, SMS marketing, including. So the special automations you should set up from day one, you should collect subscribers and try to convert as many as you can from your website visitors. Because usually what happens, you know, around 2% to 3% of your website traffic actually converts and the rest 97%, 98%, you just lose this traffic. And usually you pay for the traffic. You pay for Meta, you pay for Google to acquire this traffic. So my advice would be, you always have to convert into subscribers. So basically math is very simple. Like 2% or 3% convert directly, you may add to another 2% or 3% that you would convert into your subscribers. And that means that you double amount of your visitors that leave you a second chance to convert them a little bit later. So, you know, and you can set up automations that someone like welcome automation, someone just became my subscriber. Of course, there was like either providing some incentives or providing some education to show that our product is the best option for you. That our product is worth buying or service is worth buying, et cetera. So yeah, so probably kind of for early stage that would be the main advice to grow your subscriber list from day one, focus on this and yeah. And while you grow, you should expect 68 bucks return from each dollar we spent. And of course it's by far the most cost efficient channel in comparison to paid ads or other widely used channels. Yeah, for sure. I agree. Since I've been building businesses online, often people say the money is in the list, right? The money is in the list. The money's in the list. Well, what is very important here, Nathan, so like what I would like to emphasize, list has to be always relevant. If you have an old list and you maybe collected them two years ago, the list, the values will start decreasing. So it doesn't matter the size, mid-sized business, maybe established business, 10 years in the market, et cetera. You have to constantly refresh your list. So basically you have constantly use the tools and tactics to always convince or invite people to subscribe. Hey, Founder Fam, I wanna take a quick break from the conversation to talk to you about something super exciting. We're officially partnered with OmniSend, the email marketing and SMS platform built specifically for e-commerce founders. We've been recommending OmniSend to founder students for a while now because it just works. Whether you're launching your first store or you're scaling to seven figures, it really helps you automate your marketing and get real results. Did you know on average, OmniSend customers make $68 for every $1 they spend, which is an insanely good return on investment. And because you're part of the founder community, you get 50% off your first three months with the code Founder50. Just head to OmniSend.com forward slash founder without the E to get started. All right, now let's jump back into the show. Yeah, I agree. And look, not all email lists are created equally. It's all about relevance. I agree. So one thing that I find, and we see this a lot in our community is people are always afraid to email and they build their list but they don't communicate with their customers. You know what I'm talking about, right? Like, why do you think that is? Because of that, you know, bad word spam and people are afraid sometimes. And there is another reason. Like us marketers, we communicate via email a lot and we subscribe a lot. And we have a feeling that, you know, sometimes we have our, like, overwhelming feeling that our inbox is just, you know, flooded with so many messages, so many promotional newsletters, et cetera. But the average person, the fireman, the nurse, who are your customers, who are your buyers, they don't subscribe so much. They don't use email so much and their inbox is not flooded with emails, with newsletters, like, you know, work-related emails, as well as promotion emails, et cetera. So their inbox situation is completely different. And you as marketers, you think like through your own perspective. So that's one of the reasons, you know, oh, I received so many emails, I don't want to be spam, et cetera. But on the other hand, what is very important that you have to be, don't be spammy, yeah? So this is kind of golden rule, what we always say to the customers, you know, you should deliver what you promise. If you said that I'm going to send you, like, a message once a month or updates once per month, and if you're going to start doing it daily, of course, I mean, you will create a bad experience for our customers. And then vice versa, I mean, if you promise that there's going to be daily deals and you will start sending them weekly, your subscribers will be disappointed. So that's the first thing, you have to deliver what you promised. And the second thing, yeah, don't be afraid to, you know, especially for those who did not open, let's say, you send the first campaign, some of your subscribers did not open and that's okay. So repeat the same campaign for those non-openers and that's okay. Cause you know, you are fighting for the attention span, you know, which is quite short. And then maybe that was the wrong day, on Monday, for example, you repeat it on Wednesday for the same audience with the same message. And that's perfectly fine for those who did not open. You add another channel as well. You send email for non-openers, you can follow up with SMS, you can follow with push notifications. Another good example. Another thing, automate. So, you know, campaigns are great, but automations are even greater. So that means that you will be sending messages that are really relevant because those automations are trigger-based. So we identify your customers, your consumer's behavior, and based on that, we trigger some automation. So, you know, all those things, I hope that will convince someone who is listening that don't be afraid to communicate with your customers. And you talked about frequency. What's a good frequency? Cause is it the more emails you send, the more money you make? In the short term, yes. Basically, that's the rule. Why it's in the short term? Basically, because you basically kind of start diluting your list. So that's a thing, yeah? The more often you communicate, the more unsubscribes you will start getting, the more ignorance you will start getting from your list. But that works, basically. The more you communicate, the better results you see. But, you know, you will cannibalize your list, basically, by doing this. So I would not recommend, and again, so kind of to what I said, keep your promise. If you said it's gonna be daily updates, send daily. If you said, okay, once per month, do it once per month. So probably this is kind of a rule of thumb. But yeah, if you don't communicate, you don't convert. That's another rule of thumb. So just to find this middle ground, but at least, you know, a couple of times per week, I think it's for any business, it's healthy. In many cases, it's quite healthy to do daily communication as well. Let's say, for example, like customers of ours who sell travel, packages and travel deals, they communicate daily. Those who sell clothes, maybe there is not that much of it. And maybe it's a more boutique store. So you have 50 SQs, yeah, in stock. So of course, there's nothing to communicate daily. So you can do more like campaign things that, you know, we have new collection. So when you are very, very intense campaign, let's say for two weeks, you do it daily because you just try to present your new collection, all the different models you have in the collection, good offers, maybe some combination with some offline activities, maybe some videos included, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So very active campaign in two weeks, and then you can make a pause and just, you know, send updates and reminders weekly. So, you know, it's sometimes you have to increase the frequency to stay relevant and to create interest. Yeah, look, I agree with you, you know. And, you know, we send a lot of emails at Founder and yeah, it's a fine balance. It's definitely a fine balance. I'm curious around text message because I love that you guys, you know, a lot of people, they might use, you know, in the e-com space, they might use one email marketing platform and then they're looking at an SMS platform like Attentive or something like that. I love that you guys kind of have that, you know, all in one approach. How often should you be sending text messages? Like it feels even more intrusive to text message someone. Less than emails. Probably that's rule of thumb. And yeah, so why we have this approach that, you know, email, text messages, push notifications in one platform. So it's really kind of helps you to create an omnichannel experience for customers and basically use the channel which is preferred by our customers to be reached out. And, you know, and especially it works the best when you put it on the same flow. Either it's automation or it's just a bulk, like campaigns, newsletters. So you basically use, you know, you send an email. If it's not being read, you follow up via SMS or even if it's read or kind of like some of our customers, it's not super frequent, but we see really great results. You just send the email and then you follow up with SMS that the same audience that, look, we send some good offer to your inbox, check your inbox. And basically, okay, okay. If I trust in general the brand that I subscribe to and I go to my inbox to check and there is more content there, maybe some special deal, maybe some limited time offer, et cetera. So this is a really great as well. Advice that I would give for the listeners that, you know, try this tactic, it really works. So, and like to your question one, how often shall we send? So yeah, SMS, it's kind of, it's like open rates are really good with SMS because just it's impossible to ignore basically this message. So then you have a good deal. So probably kind of two things. When you have something special, so it could be seasonal, it could be related to, let's get back to the same like April. So if you have new collection, you can follow up the email campaign by SMS campaign as well. Another piece of advice that I would give, so all the purchase communication done by SMS is really well accepted by the customers because it does not convert immediately, but it doesn't cost you a lot. So basically, you know, Nathan purchased something for me and I sent text message that, we shipped, did you receive? You have tracking, that your delivery company reported that you received. Did you receive? Are you happy? Yes, no. Reply with yes, no. That's it, yeah. If a customer is not happy, maybe you can connect to your support center, to convert unhappy customer into happy customer, et cetera. So, and all those kind of post-purchase SMS, they're well received because they're not promotional, but at the same time, this is a great opportunity for very low cost to remind your brand, to interact with your customers, to show that you care about your customers. You will not see great conversion rates of those campaigns, but again, you're going to spend few cents additional, but next time, then the person will be looking for the product to sell, you will be top of mind. So, talk me through, I guess you would talk a lot about automation and there's some really interesting kind of omni-channel approaches, you know, push notification, SMS, email, just kind of mixing them all in one and how effective that is to get cut through. What about AI? Like more than ever, you know, I've got, like not a day goes by now where I've got someone saying they can build me an agent that can, you know, cold outreach to people and put, you know, X amount of, you know, appointments on calendars for our sales team, all these different things. How are you guys looking at AI in terms of copywriting, personalization, segmentation? Yeah, talk us through that. Of course, AI is a disruptive technology and we believe that it's equal to probably the steam engine invention, electricity, internet invention. So it's disrupting our lives and it will disrupt for sure. So what we currently already have in the product, so we have widgets and our kind of strategy, we are embedding smaller elements into existing products, not remaking the entire flow. Maybe we'll do sometime in the future, but for now we are embedding smaller widgets to what you mentioned, it helps customers with copywriting. So probably the most used and the most popular thing that we have in OmniSend is subject line generator, AI. So we just, you know, define what kind of campaign you wanna make and it offers you the list of subject lines and you choose one, you can regenerate, et cetera. Preheader, based on the subject line, it generates your preheader. We have in template, the copy, copyright generator. Translate, you can translate with AI, you can generate text to just prompt that, okay, this is what I wanna say. This is the product I wanna promote, to share the link, et cetera. And it offers you the text, the copyright and of course you are in control when you have a final say. What we just recently launched and I really, really love it because this is kind of probably the most challenging for the marketers that are more on the creative side. Segment builder. So to build a segment, those customers who have purchased, who have not purchased, let's say in the past 30 days, but spend in total more than 1000 bucks in their lifetime. So prior to AI widget that we currently have, you have to put all the conditions yourself and think through. And this, we saw that this is pretty challenging for our customers. So it's still in beta, but it's live for all of our customers. You can go now and you just put in the human language and we will build the segment for you. And the segments could be really, really complex, whatever you want to build. And we will be adding more of those. So basically kind of the direction and the idea and the vision AI within Omniscient, we see that AI will have to be the creator for you as well as the strategist. So basically help you with copyright, with images, as well as come up with recommendations. What we would recommend you to do next. At the same time, we still see a marketer as the person who will make final decisions. AI is recommending, the marketer is making decisions, either accept recommendations or ask for other recommendations. Yeah, that's cool. So talk me through, because really it's about like businesses building relationships at scale. So you can use a tool like Omniscient to further build relationships with your customers and then use your tool to put out the right offer at the right time, identify potential email subscribers that have a high likelihood to purchase or repurchase or continue to purchase. And you can look at data and trends and the AI can automatically kind of find campaigns or even automations that are already there that could help drive more revenue and customers. So segmentation is really, really interesting to me. Should people be segmenting or is it better off to just always broadcast to the whole list? Segmentation is very powerful. So first thing is automations. So basically an automation is basically at the same time, automation is segmentation to the scale of one. So this is the segment. So that the person who just did something or visited certain pages or showed interest in certain products or maybe purchased one week ago, et cetera. So this is kind of like automation is a segment to one, like flows, automations, you can look at whatever you prefer to call it. And so this is kind of what the top advice. And from what we see that automated traffic is around 2% of all messages that we send, email, SMS messages, push notification. So 2% of the messages generates 40% of orders. So it's just, and the engagement rates, conversion rates are just massive because it's just super relevant content and it's segment of one. So that's the best. Second best is really built segments. And of course, if you are just a starter and you have 100 subscribers in your list, you should not be segmented, it's just too early. But if you have 100,000 subscribers in your list, it's really worth segmenting and put different campaigns, different offers to different segments. And you should not go too complicated sometimes. It depends on, of course, on your business, how many SKUs you have. But if you don't have many SKUs, maybe you don't have what to segment much because the offer will be the same. But still, you can segment on behavior. You can put one offer for your best customers. You can put another offer for your first-time buyers, maybe. Because usually the first-time buyers, you should come with a better offer to convert them. I hate saying that, but usually that's how it works. Yeah, you should be rewarding for loyalty, but in reality, usually as marketers, we come up with a better offer to convert for first time. And those who are loyal customers, you come with some other, maybe treatments for those customers, but maybe not that much of financial discounts. Yeah, that's fair. Look, there's a very big difference between someone that's a buyer and not a buyer. And it changes the relationship from a marketing psychology standpoint. And if you provide that customer with a good experience, the likelihood of them buying again is far greater than somebody that hasn't bought before. So yeah, you can segment on behavior if a person is a customer or not, you can segment on how engaged they are, you can segment on what they've purchased, how much they've spent, all sorts of things. I have a kind of segmentation, especially in the, let's say, United States, a bigger country. So sending time zone optimization, when you send across the time zones, you've just set up that, okay, I want this email to go at 8 a.m., depending on the customer's location, not on my location. If you sell worldwide or if you sell nationwide in, let's say, United States, multiple time zones there, et cetera. So again, it's an example of segmentation as well. It's just automated. We call it by different words, but at the core, it's just different segments. So when it comes to, I guess, revenue that your company powers, how many, I'd say it would be billions in revenue do you guys generate for your customers per year? Do you have any stats like that? Yeah, so last year we generated more than $2 billion U.S. dollars for our customers. Multiple currencies just converted into U.S. dollars. It was more than $2 billion U.S. dollars for our customers per year. It's pretty massive. We don't calculate it on a daily basis. And once I asked colleagues, so can we come up with stats at the end of the year? It was really what made our team happy, et cetera. And since then we started calculating more on a monthly basis, et cetera. It's a big number. It's a big impact, especially for those small and medium-sized businesses. Hey guys, I really hope you're feeling inspired from today's interview. The truth is there's never been a better time to build an e-commerce business. And the best part is you don't need to do it alone. That's where FounderPlus comes in, which I'm really, really, really excited to share with you. If you are feeling stuck in your e-commerce business, lacking the confidence to really move forward, or you're worrying about making costly mistakes or how to drive your sales, FounderPlus is here to support you. You get access to a customized learning pathway with proven frameworks from successful e-commerce founders for fast results, a supportive community. We have weekly live mentorship and workshops and exclusive savings on startup tools and 24 seven real human support. You can try FounderPlus today for just $1 for seven days so you can accelerate your business goals. Just visit founder.com forward slash start dollar trial or click the link in the description to claim your trial. All right, now let's jump back into the show. Yeah, I agree. And I guess when you look at that level of impact and there's a lot of options for a store to generate revenue through email marketing, SMS automation, if you're a brand, if you're speaking to somebody that has a brand that's doing, you know, five to $10,000 a month, where should they focus first? Campaigns, automations, what are the easiest wins? What quick wins would you give to anyone right now watching this? I would say in this priority order, first set up a subscriber's collection because this is what you set up and it just works, you know, set and forget. And it's very important because if you, to what you said, yeah, so Val is in the list. So if you don't have a list, it's, I mean, and you will spend the same time to compose campaign to the list of 100 as well as to the list of 100,000. Yeah, you may be kind of segment, change some elements, but basically the same time and same effort you need to put. So that's the first thing. Set up the flows like pop-ups. Be sure that you ask to, upon the purchase moment, people that you have a tick box that people could subscribe to your email, to your SMS communication. That is very important. Pop-ups, forms in your bottom, in the bottom of your website and all those things are very, very important. Landing pages. So first thing, be sure that you're collecting, constantly collecting subscribers, inviting your visitors to subscribe or your buyers to subscribe. Second thing, set up automations. Why it's second thing? Because this is, again, set and forget kind of style. You set up automations and make more of them. This is a general mistake that we see among our customers, but at least set up one, maybe two. Like Abundant Card Miner is the most popular. But those who set up 10 automations, they double their revenue or sometimes even triple in comparison to those that set up two. Yes, Abundant Card is the most effective. That's right. But if you add second, third, post-purchase automations like Browse Abundant, not only those who put something in the shopping cart, but those who just browse products and did not even put in the shopping cart. And then the post-purchase automations, asking for reviews, satisfaction surveys. Back in stock, super effective automation, very underused. Because sometimes we see the situation that we're out of stock and the product is still there, but just we have a button. Button sold out and that's it. Yeah, so let people subscribe to this very, very specific one-off campaign or one-off automation in this case that, you know, let me be noticed when the product is back in stock. It's super effective. So set up more automations, not two, five is better than two, 10 is better than five. And third, do campaigns. This is what you kind of do like manually. This is what you do, what you think, what you want to promote, yeah? Either it's weekly or daily or monthly. So that would be the priority order I would recommend. Yeah, and so if you have, you know, a store that's doing five to $10,000 a month and you have an email list of, let's say a couple of thousand people, what kind of benchmark should you be aiming? Should you be aiming for at least 20% to 30% of your revenue to start coming from email, yeah? Yeah, so we usually say 15% to 30%. So 20% to 30% really kind of completely agree with you here. Yeah, okay. So that's a good benchmark for people. So if you're right now, you're listening to this and you're not driving anywhere between 15% to 30% of your total revenue for email, effectively, it's not working. You got opportunities. True. Or if it drives more than 30%, sometimes we see that it's a case as well that, you know, 60% of your revenue is being driven by email. That means that you are under-investing in other channels as well. I mean, it's great, but still, maybe you have to invest more into paid ads, into personal acquisition, maybe, et cetera. Okay, that's an interesting take. So what do most early stage founders get wrong when it comes to email? What are common mistakes you see your clients and customers make? They start communicating too late and they don't automate enough. Probably that was kind of, oh, I have a short subscriber list. Maybe I still have to continue collecting, but, you know, while collecting, of course, you have to have welcome automations set up, yeah? So every subscriber, every new subscriber gets into your list, should be, you know, tried to be converted into a buyer. So, yeah, so just set up automations as early as you can. And this is the main mistake, I would say, that the thought process is, okay, now I am in subscriber's collection phase and I will get to the communication phase later. So while you start collecting subscribers, please start communicate with them immediately. And automations is a really great help here because, of course, to, you know, come up with new campaign, maybe just you have too many, you know, spinning plates on your table and you have too many things to take care of and you cannot create the unique campaigns. But, you know, AI helps already and it will help more and more in the coming months and years. Yep, I agree. So we have to work towards wrapping up. I could talk shop with you all day about email marketing, automation, all sorts of things, but I have two questions for you. One, what's the craziest story, case study or story you'd like to share about a customer succeeding on your platform that you think is important, that will teach some great lessons for anyone listening? And two, where do you see the future of, I guess, Martech, you know, email or marketing automation going? So probably kind of the first would be Dixon flannel. So shirts, we do sell like flannel shirts. And like the idea, the campaigns, what they make. So they have limited stock. They come off with collections and they have limited, always limited stock. And they just make such massive campaigns prior to launch, like pre-sale, et cetera. You can pre-book, et cetera. But they kind of basically sell out their new collection of entire stock in like half of the day, et cetera. It's pretty kind of pretty niche brand, but really decent established business at the same time. And they kind of, we never discount, but it's all about like FOMO, that they gave us a new collection and they make a very intensive campaign prior to launch and they sell out in like few hours, which is amazing. And again, it's a really amazing tactic, which is not being applied by a lot of merchants, but you know, this kind of FOMO, feel of shortage a little bit. And this is their constant decision that they have limited stock. Although technically they could potentially make a little bit more money having unlimited stock, but at the same time, you know, they sell out without any discounts and then audience is really loyal and waiting for another campaign to happen, another collection to come out, et cetera. So yeah, so I think this is a really, really crazy. I mean, it's the results that are being generated from email, it's flat, flat, flat. Wow, just a massive spike for one day, et cetera. But like overall results, like monthly, annual results are super great. Yeah, and second, the second, the future. So of course, like AI will assist a lot, for sure. That's the main change that will happen. It will be way easier to sell to the level of one, I have no doubt, just to build very, very personalized, very targeted campaigns. So you can do that now with automations, but I have no doubts you will be able to do that with those campaigns, bulk, bulk sending, but just each email will be very personalized. It's the first thing. And second thing, I truly believe that email will not die and email will remain the most effective channel for retention, customer retention, augmented by SMS, web push notifications. Maybe other channels arise. WhatsApp seems like becoming more and more popular. Potentially we will, we used to serve WhatsApp, we didn't stop doing it, but potentially we will relaunch in some near future. So yeah, so probably those two things, email will not die as, you know, once we launched OmniSend 10 years ago, people were saying, oh, come on email, it's so old school. But up until today, it remains the most effective customer retention channel. So I believe that AI will help you to do better email and email will remain the most effective retention channel. Why, why, why do you say it will not die? Why, why do you say that? Because I think the main reason why email is still the most effective retention channel, because the customer is in full control of their inbox. And usually what happens with us, I mean, us, when we are consumers, so we subscribe to different newsletters and we barely read like each and every one. Nobody does that. But you know, it depends on the subject line. Yeah, I trust founder brand. I subscribe to the newsletter. Do I read each and every one? Not, why? Because sometimes I'm just too busy today. I have too many priorities, you know, and then very busy. I skip one, but then I receive another one another day and then I open, I read and engage, et cetera. So, and I'm in full control, yeah. And that's okay to have some unread messages and then read of another. And this is not the case with other communication channels. Let's say, you know, Messenger or other. People kind of see those channels as more personal and then they prefer just having, you know, friend to friend communication, not person to brand communication. So I think this is the main reason and there is no replacement. Yep, yep, yep. I agree. I never thought of it on, you know, people curate their inbox on what they want to subscribe to. They can unsubscribe anytime and they get, you know, communications versus phone number, text message. You don't really curate. You are, but you're not. And it's mainly for texting with friends and yeah. So yeah, people use email to really power commerce, you know. Yeah. And even like, you know, text messages, like across our customer base, we see that text message communication is more popular in the United States and Canada. And to be honest, I'm not sure about Australia, but I think you don't have this. But because in the US and Canada, it's so easy and so standardized how you can unsubscribe. By just replying stop, it's a default. And every, like, consumer knows that it's, I'm sure that I will unsubscribe easily. And this insurement, like, that's why more people subscribe to SMS communication in Canada and the United States, because it's all standardized. They are pretty sure that it will be so easy to unsubscribe. In the other countries, there is no such enforcement by coming by government. So that's why people are a little bit more conscious to what brand do I subscribe? Do I really trust this brand? And will it be easy for me to opt out? In OmniSend, we always put the unsubscribe links if you are outside the United States or Canada. But, you know, the experience is sometimes different for the consumer. Yeah, yeah. Okay, very interesting. And it's cool that you guys can segment, right? So you can do text messaging, you can do certain behavioral actions, depending on where somebody's at. So look, we have to work towards wrapping up readers. So I just want to say, anyone listening, watching this, you got to check out OmniSend. It is legitimately an incredible platform. And look, we cannot recommend you guys, if you're an e-commerce founder, to use OmniSend. It's an amazing platform, super cost affordable. And look, we recommend it to all of our community. So I just wanted to ask you one last question. Any final words of wisdom? Any questions that you wanted me to ask you that I haven't asked you yet? I think we touched, like, everything. So really well prepared interview. So good questions.