Usha Vance Opens Up: Her First Extended Interview on Life as Second Lady with Meghan McCain

When J.D. Vance became vice president, I, like a lot of women I know, wanted to know more about his wife Usha. She's a Yale graduate, a former Supreme Court clerk, a Hindu mom raising Catholic kids, and now the first South Asian second lady in American history. But I wanted to know who she really is, how she thinks, how she parents, what she values, and how she's navigating a life she never saw coming. This is Usha's first real in-depth on-camera interview, and I am incredibly grateful and humbled that she trusted me enough to do this. We talked about everything. Her marriage to J.D., raising three young kids in a mixed-faith home, how she's adjusting to life in the Naval Observatory, and what she actually wants to do with this platform. She even responded very generously to something personal that I shared for the first time during our conversation. If you enjoy the interview, please hit subscribe on our YouTube channel. And if you want to join me on my two-way show, you can register at twoway.tv slash Megan. I would love to see you there. I am so excited to be here today with Mrs. Vance, our second lady of the United States. Welcome to Citizen McCain. I'm so excited to have you. Come on. I'm so excited to talk to you. I just want to thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. Well, thank you for having me on the show, and please call me Usha. Okay. She gave me permission, you guys. Okay. So I just have been so interested in you as a person, and I'm not trying to freak you out. But ever since your husband was chosen to be vice president, my text chain with my girlfriends were just so excited about your role as second lady. You're so modern. And I just really wanted to know more about you, which is how this opportunity came about. So I just want to know if we could start at the beginning. You're from San Diego. I'm from Phoenix. I love a West Coast girl that made it to D.C. Could you just tell me a little bit about growing up in San Diego? Your parents are so accomplished. Your dad's a mechanical engineer. Your mother's a molecular biologist. I don't even know what that is, but it sounds very fancy. Would you mind telling me a little bit just about growing up in San Diego? Absolutely. My parents moved to San Diego in the 70s and 80s, and I mean, they were pursuing higher education, so that's what brought them there. But the weather sort of kept them there and all the opportunities that were there in the 80s. So I was born there and lived there until I was 17 and left for college. And actually, it was a wonderful place to grow up. It was really kind of as people imagine it in the movies. The sky is blue. No one really cares about anything. Everyone's happy all the time. And I think it was just a really, really relaxed place to be as a child where we could spend all our time outdoors, where it just felt like boundless opportunity. The future was just ours. Were you like a beach kid? Did you surf? I didn't surf, but I was a beach kid. My mom actually did her PhD at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, which is part of UCSD. She's a marine molecular biologist, and it's right on the water. So I grew up going in with her all the time when she'd go to her lab. I would go to her office, then we'd run around on the beach at lunch and in the morning and before we left. I love it. And then you went to Yale, which is so fancy. I went to Columbia, but when I read that you graduated summa cum laude and I was like, I was like a pretty consistent C student. So I can't, I wanted to know like, how does one choose Yale and then graduate summa cum laude? Because that's obviously a huge accomplishment. Well, thank you. But the answer for choosing Yale is that I, like I said, grew up in San Diego and I'd really never lived anywhere else. And I just thought college was a good time for an adventure. So my parents told me I should apply to the schools in San Diego and elsewhere in California. But if there was somewhere that I really wanted to go and there was a really good reason for going somewhere more expensive on the other side of the country, we would make it work. And Yale, I just sort of fell for. That it was in the middle of a city, that it had all these beautiful historic buildings, but it didn't feel so cloistered as a lot of the other universities I was looking at. And I mean, it was a great experience. I'm so glad that I ended up going there. And then as for the grades and all that, that, well, first of all, I mean, we've got to give Yale its due. It has a lot of great inflation. No way. I don't deserve all the credit there, but I was just very lucky to have found a discipline that I was really interested in and have professors who were just so encouraging. And I felt like it was just boundless opportunity to learn new things, to be super interested in things, to pour myself into new ideas. And it was just a lot of fun. Why law school and why the law? Law school came about because when I was thinking of what to do when I was graduating, I thought I might like to be a history professor, but I had taken one class that was sort of law related that had caught my interest. So I spent the next three years exploring pretty systematically these different paths. I spent one year teaching at a university in China, which I didn't love. And I started to realize that this was just not something that was going to make me wake up excited every day. And I spent a year working at a law firm, which I actually did really love. And I spent a year in graduate school in the UK, doing a master's en route to a PhD in early modern history, which frankly was maybe the best of all three. But I knew that the job that came after it wasn't something that I really wanted. So that's how I ended up in law school. And you were, are an extremely successful lawyer, clerk for the Supreme Court. Did you love it? Because sometimes I've gotten to places in my career where I thought this was what I wanted. And then when I got there, I was like, this is not what I thought it would be. Did you love, I mean, these are like very high level jobs that you had. Did you enjoy it? I did. Yeah. I think the thing that clerkships are very special part of legal training, where you graduate from law school, you kind of have this base knowledge of law, but you don't really know what you're doing at all. And a clerkship is a very special opportunity to just learn, first of all, the institutions that govern what you're doing, the courts, but also just be plunged into all sorts of subject areas and kind of dip your toe in different waters and see what you like. And to learn from people who are obviously incredibly talented. So I thought it was really exciting. Those three clerkships that I did just because of the sheer breath and intensity of the experience, I felt like at the end of it, I actually knew something and could actually maybe make something out of this career. Working at a law firm is a little bit different, but I was pretty lucky there as well. I just worked at a law firm in California that had a really special culture, really incredible people. And they gave me the same kind of freedom to explore different areas and constantly be trying new things that I had had in a clerkship setting. So that was great as well. But like you say, legal practice is, it's not always like the most lovable profession. Sometimes you think to yourself, why am I up at 3am writing this thing when I could have a different job where I'd have more personal time and all of that. And I definitely coming to the end of my time at a law firm was feeling that way. Like sometimes things weren't moving in the professional direction that I really wanted. Do you mind if I ask a little bit about your love story? Sure. Because everybody's interested. So you met, my understanding, you met your husband at Yale. And I just want to know, I know I saw an interview, you said you were friends first. I also read in his book that he said, I love you first. When you first met him, what did you think was special about him? Because my husband and I were friendly first before we got together too. And there was definitely a moment that I was like, oh, maybe this is a little different. Can you just tell me a little bit about like your first meeting and how it turned romantic, Mrs. Vance? So the first meeting would have been in the library. I think I've told people about this before, where we were just on a tour of the library together. And we met all the people who were in our classes together. And that I barely remember because, you know, it was a tour. There was just this flood of information. And I was really focused on that. But we, I think we were really lucky that we got to know each other the best possible setting. We had all our classes together. It was just a really lovely social environment. So I just knew of him as one of the people who kind of held that group together, our small group that was going from class to class to class. Everyone really liked him. He was funny. He didn't take everything too seriously. He was just obviously really good friend material right off the bat. And so I was drawn to him for that reason. And I think that persisted for quite some time. And it really was when he, later on in our second semester, when he started to talk more about where he was from and what made him this kind of person who I just found so appealing, that I started to think of him in this different way, as something other than a friend, but one of the more interesting people I'd ever met in my life. Sure. Yeah. I think that's what kind of set us on the path towards dating and eventual marriage. I love Amy Chua, Tiger Mom, people who don't know. And I know I have heard that she's a big part of how you guys got together. Would you mind illuminating me and telling me, you know, what role she ended up playing? Oh, sure. You know, she didn't actually set us up, which is something that people have started to say recently. I'm sorry. It's what I thought. And that's really, we met in this really organic way. We did have a class with her together, but she wasn't instrumental in us dating or anything like that. But I do think she was really important later on. And this is something that J.D. talks about in his book. When you're in law school, particularly when you're in your second and third year, you're thinking, especially at a place like Yale, you're thinking in this sort of laser-focused way about clerkships, about maximizing this interest or that interest or your chance of being able to do this other thing that you really care about. And J.D. was having, I think it's fair to say, a little bit of a crisis about why he was in law school at all. He was chasing all these things that felt very prestigious and like we're going to put him on a path to legal success. And I think she was really helpful because she came to him and said, you really should be thinking about this differently. Your heart is not in doing that. You really love Usha. Make decisions that maximize your happiness in that way. And that meant, I mean, he was really amazing about this. That meant that we were able to follow some of my legal career's twists and turns geographically and be together and get married earlier than we would have been if we'd making these different decisions. And I give her so much credit for just understanding that that really is the most important thing. How old were you when you got married? Oh, that's a really good question. I think we were 26, 27. I was, when I was reading, I was like, I think they were very young to get, it's wonderful. It was in 2014. 2014. Okay. So like over 10 years ago. Do you remember your first date? Um, yes. You don't have to share anything that's too private. Not at all. I was just going to say the thing, the thing about being friends is our first date was just hanging out. We watched a movie together and you know, then our second date was probably eating in the law school cafeteria. It's super sexy. We were just sort of around each other at all times. I love that though. I have friends who met that, that type of way. And I think it's so great to know people in like different incarnations of your life. So if you're in this situation, you know, you've been partners for so long, I can, I can only guess. Um, you were talking about finding out about the vice president's story and I remember reading his book, Hillbilly Algae and being just very moved by the whole story. And you know, his story is very, sadly, it's a common one of, you know, you've lost people in Appalachia, lost people in the country. When he first shared that with you, did you find it overwhelming? Because, you know, not to give you too much information about my personal life, but, um, my husband was homeschooled when he was growing up. And I remember being like, we come from wildly different backgrounds. And obviously you two come from extremely different backgrounds. What was your reaction when he first opened up and shared his childhood with you? Um, I wouldn't say overwhelming. It wasn't overwhelming. Um, but it was exciting. And I think one of the reasons that it was like that is he had already, I already thought of him as this sort of warm and empathetic person in a lot of ways. And it, it felt like an honor that he was telling me something that he didn't want to tell other people. And that sort of explained a lot of the things that I had already observed about him. So it was obviously a lot of the stories are harrowing and, you know, from a removed, they're really familiar because he wrote a book about it and he's talked about it and there was a movie and all of these sorts of things. But at the time they were just really, really different from anything that I'd ever heard from anyone else. Um, but it, it felt like this sort of gift. Um, and I think his manner of telling it and his sort of the kind of comfort that I felt made it seem not as overwhelming as maybe it could have been. It's really beautiful. There's a gift. It felt like a very special experience to me and it still feels like a very special experience. Well, it's inspired so many people. I think it's a big part of why, you know, he gained such attention and trust with so many people because he has walked the walk in his life and on so many ways. Um, the movie, uh, did you like Frida Pinto's, uh, portrayal of you? I did. You know, she's a, she's a very talented actress and she's better at being me than I was. So I was feeling very flattered by that portrayal. That's awesome. Um, were you happy with the movie? I was. Yeah. The movie is quite different obviously in some ways from JD's actual life because it's a movie. So they had to create a framing narrative this sort of weekend that didn't happen and cram a lot of things in his life into one, one place. Um, one short period of time. But I thought that was very effective and I thought above all, they were just so respectful of his family members and really of his, his, his memories and the integrity of those memories when they made it. Um, there, JD I think has talked about this, but, um, when his aunt and uncle came in and saw his mama sort of brought to life in the flesh, they cried because it was just so realistic. Wow. Okay. Um, so it was really, I think a really good experience and it was helpful actually for the family too. Like healing to see. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I've had a few portrayals of my family that are ridiculous. So I'm glad that you had a positive experience. Um, you know, obviously when you're deciding to marry someone and you're falling in love with them, you think of so many different things going forward about your future and you are Hindu and your husband is Catholic. Um, I'm just curious cause I have quite a few Hindu friends in my life. How you incorporate your faith together in your lives and with your children? Well, at the time when I met JD, he wasn't a Catholic. He converted later. And when he converted, we had a lot of conversations about that because it was actually after we had had our first child. Maybe, maybe it was after Vivek was born too. I'm having trouble placing the date now. Um, but of course when you convert to Catholicism, it comes with several important obligations like to raise your child in the faith and all that. And, um, we had to have a lot of real conversations about how do you do that when I'm not Catholic and I'm not intending to convert or anything like that. Um, so I actually think it was a really helpful thing to happen, um, because we were obligated to have those conversations as a part of his conversion. And it felt like I could be a part of it and have some, you know, say over the way that our, the direction our lives were going. So what we've ended up doing is we send our kids to Catholic school and we have given them each the, the choice, right? They can choose whether they want to be baptized Catholic and then go through the whole step-by-step process, um, with their classes in school. And so far our oldest child has done that and we'll see what our second child does. Um, but we make going to church a family experience. The kids know that I'm not Catholic and they have, um, plenty of access to the Hindu tradition from books that we give them to, um, things that we show them to the visit recently to India and some of the, the religious elements of that visit. So it is a part of their lives and they know many practicing Hindus as a part of their lives in their own family. Do you celebrate like Diwali or Holi with them? Any of like the traditions? Um, we haven't, we're actually hoping to have a Holi party. So we're looking forward to that next year. Beautiful. No, I mean, you can explain it. It's a beautiful tradition. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think it would be a lot of fun. Um, their main point of access is through spending time with my parents and my grandmother. My grandmother is a particularly devout Hindu. She, you know, she prays every day. She goes to the temple regularly. She'll do her own pujas. And so they access it that way. We spend a lot of time with them. Um, we don't necessarily mark a lot of the holidays at home. What we do is with my family. Um, they'll either call and we'll talk about it. There are certain things that they'll do every year. Um, or we'll, we'll see, you know, the, the gods in their home and, um, be there when pujas are happening and all that. I love that. I think it's so beautiful. I really do. I love interfaith families. And I just think from the outside, you guys seem like you're doing it really flawlessly. And it's really nice to see in this level in our, you know, in our culture and in the country. I just think it's really beautiful. Um, you have three gorgeous kids. I just met your little daughter. Um, she was walking to go get some crafts. She's beautiful. Um, eight. What are their ages? You tell me. They are eight, five and three. Okay. Um, three kids. Very exciting. Did you guys always want to have a, I mean, I wouldn't say big family, but as three children, um, when did you decide to have kids? Um, and how important it was having children to your marriage? Well, we decided we, I don't think we would have gotten married if we didn't both know that we were going to have kids because we were both independently, very interested in it. Um, so that was never in question. You know, by the time we were married, we knew we were going to have kids. Um, the number though, that wasn't questioned. I grew up with just two kids in my family and JD, um, has a differently structured family, but he primarily grew up with just his sister. I think what we had decided at the outset is we'll have two and then we'll see how we feel after that. And I thought maybe I would have two kids and I would think I'm done. This is good. But I just liked having the two kids so much that I think I ended up being the driver for three, which really surprised both of us. And now we're at three and I think I'm feeling pretty good about this. And sometimes he thinks he might like to have a fourth, but that we'll see where that leads. Do you think it's still open? Um, I mean, never say never. Sure. We do really love having our three kids, but I'm also really enjoying that they're at an age now where, you know, they're a little bit more self-sufficient. They play together as this little pack and, um, we're, we're kind of past the baby phase. Yeah. So, um, I hope you don't mind. I wanted to let you in on something as private that I haven't talked about publicly yet, because one of the things I have so enjoyed about you and your husband is seeing how you incorporate your children in your life. In so many ways, you travel with them and, you know, they're very public with you when you, you know, go to different kinds of events. I just saw a picture at the military parade with your children. Like, I just love it. Um, I have two little girls. They are almost five and almost three. And I just am entering my second trimester. I'm pregnant with my third. I know it's a weird way to announce it, but it's wonderful. I'm very nervous about it's a boy. I'm very nervous about having a boy. And I'm very nervous about having three children. Very. And I keep reading all this horrible data about how people with three kids, it's like the worst amount of kids to have. And I wanted to know if you could share with me and women in America, why having three kids is good, how you manage three kids and any advice for boy moms. Absolutely. Well, congratulations. Thank you. So exciting. Thank you for letting me share this with you. We just met 20 minutes ago. So I feel like we're intimate enough for me to tell you. I love it. I love it. Um, I love having three kids. I'm a huge proponent of it. I mean, obviously people want to have different family sizes for different reasons, but what I've really enjoyed about three kids is that it's just enough for them all to be kind of a pack. Like the oldest will take care of the youngest one. The youngest is so motivated to be like the older two that she's basically self-sufficient always has been. Um, it's awesome. And I thought zero to one was an enormous shock. Yeah. Zero feels one way and one feels like the entire world has turned upside down and you don't know what you're doing and what's up and what's down two to three. Wasn't that bad. And three or sorry, one to two wasn't that bad. And two to three was shockingly the easiest of all. So I think, um, you're maybe in for a surprise cause you know, the oldest kid can be helpful and they actually want to be helpful at a certain point. And I, at least in our experience, our third child just thinks that she is a, you know, an eight year old boy at this point, she is completely grown up. She does everything by herself. It's great. Um, and then as for the tips about girls and boys, um, the one thing that I will say is that the, the growth curves are so different and the way that they, the timeline of development is really different, that that comes as a little bit of a surprise. Um, how so? Well, our, uh, our little boys, especially verbally, we're just behind our little girls and they also grew taller, faster. Um, so just don't be surprised by that. My friend told me that you have to like, that they just have more energy all the time. Is it true that they like are just more rambunctious and, and have to like, my friend says she has to like run her son out like a racehorse. Do you have that experience? Running, running, running our middle child like a racehorse is definitely a thing. Uh, our oldest is actually very, um, he's kind of a well-mannered, pretty calm kid, but he loves to wrestle and he loves all of these. He's got a lot of energy as well, but he can kind of reign it in. There's just no chance with our second kid who just has to move. Um, so we just try to think of when they were little, we tried to think of life in almost like 15 minute blocks. Yes. Like what can we do with a vague for 15 minutes before he then starts trying to tear apart the furniture? What can we do for the next 15 minutes? It's like my daughter. She's an animal. Um, how do you keep them entertained on your international trips? Because I've been so impressed when I've seen, you know, you walking off a plane with your children. I was like, God love this family because I'm taking my children to Arizona, which is only a five hour flight on Saturday. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. Like it's, and I let them use tablets on planes, which I heard a rumor that you guys are, you do not do that. No, we don't. We don't use tablets on planes. Um, every now and then they'll watch a movie. Tell me your secret of how you accomplish this. Well, I mean, to be fair in this current moment, they have more ability to move around, um, on the plane. So that really does help. Um, but even when we were traveling commercially, the way that I always thought about it is we, we established certain traditions and kind of responsibilities. So there were things that they looked forward to doing on the plane. Um, and also things that they felt like they were the oldest child would be kind of responsible for his little sister and, um, would be responsible for helping us navigate through the airport and things like that. So we just had almost kind of a family narrative of how we traveled. Like, this is what we all do together. When you're on the plane, you'll have this like great opportunity to do this activity that you haven't even seen yet because you haven't seen it since the last flight. Um, and then honestly, we just sort of accepted that sometimes it was going to be a disaster. You know, sometimes the two year old cry, sometimes you think you're putting a baby to sleep on the plane and the baby just doesn't want to be asleep. And so you're just kind of hunched over like this for two hours. And so letting go of some of the, the sort of preemptive shame of having kids on an airplane also really helped. I used to be like, oh my gosh, those people with kids on planes. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Because you're right. Like you just, they're children. You can't control how they behave. Um, do you have any tricks for jet lag with kids or is that another one you just surrender to? Um, when we're going long distances in the direction of Europe, what we kind of do is we don't transition them all the way. So we let them stay up until midnight and then we have them stay like sleeping later in the morning. Um, and that really helps. And also this may not be for everyone, but on the first night, we just let everyone get a little too little sleep. So they're all kind of grumpy the next day, but the second night everyone goes to bed and then it's, it's pretty good from there. Um, when you guys went to India, how important and fun was that for you with your children? I loved seeing the pictures of you guys at the Taj Mahal and different places. Um, was it moving for you to bring them to India? Oh, it was, I mean, it was a really long awaited trip and it'd been postponed several times in our personal capacity. So having an official reason to go was just very exciting. Um, and I think it's hard to top some of the sites that we visited and to just have, go somewhere like the Umber Fort and see your kids running around, like pretending to defeat imaginary enemies in this ancient structure. Um, it was really wonderful. And we're looking forward to the next trip when we can maybe see more family members and more of the places that are kind of personally connected to our family. Sure. Sure. Really fun. Um, your transition to motherhood, you were saying it was, you know, zero to one killed me. I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I don't know how to take care of a child. And I had my daughter during COVID, which made it like particularly intense. Um, did you have any, uh, postpartum or any, any issues when you were pregnant at all? I had a postnatal preeclampsia with my first daughter and I had postpartum anxiety, which I think was COVID related. Cause I was like so paranoid. Everyone was going to get sick and die. Um, did you have anything like that at all? So during pregnancy, during each of them, I was prone to anemia, which just makes you so tired and you're already kind of tired. And especially when we were having our, our third child, I was completely exhausted because I had a trial right before, um, right before she was born. So yes. But for me, it was actually a little bit different because pregnancy was so exhausting that not being anemic was just like, you know, high on life and that really helped. Um, but it was a little challenging, especially when Ewan was born, our first child, because he was born in June of 2017. And then seven weeks later, I started, um, a clerkship, my last clerkship at the Supreme court. And I mean, I kid you not like the week before, um, I started that job. We were still mostly nocturnal and I wasn't awake during the day and I had to kind of switch to being awake and functioning during the day and sleeping at night. So that was a really rough transition for us, but honestly it ended up being good because it, it showed me a little bit about how, um, how much time I had been wasting before and how much more efficiently I could run my professional life in a way that would allow me to be, uh, the kind of parent I wanted to be. And I just, it was, you know, zero to 60 in a lot of ways, but, um, I think it changed everything about how I, how I lived after that. Did having children change your perspective on the world? Oh, I mean, absolutely. I think it must for everyone. Right. Um, I mean, first of all, just when I walk around the things that I'm interested in, the things that I notice, the way I plan my time, just radically different. I spend a lot more time looking at bugs now, like affirmatively hunting out insects and call kids over. So everything that I see is just different. And then honestly, the way that I value, um, my time and how I fill it, totally transformed. I mean, we just, we don't go to brunch anymore. Um, we do sometimes, but you know, I'm, I'm, I'm happy waking up at 6 30 in the morning in a way that it just would have been inconceivable before having kids. Um, uh, it's just, there's so much joy and every moment that I get to spend with them and thing that I get to expose them to that's new is a source of joy for me. Even if it's the sort of thing that I would have done without thinking or been almost bored by, um, before having kids. Do they understand that their dad is vice president and you are a second lady? I don't, I mean, I don't think they know what I do. I don't think the second lady title is really taken root vice president. They, they have figured out because the inauguration really drove that home. Okay. I mean, I'm not sure they really knew what my husband was running for in November of last year, but obviously there has been a lot of change and they, they kind of appreciate it in a different way. Um, but I'm not sure they at this age that they really know what it is that he's talking about, what he's focused on. They're excited about it though. They do, they do kind of sense the gravitas of a place like the white house and, and feel like something special that maybe they wouldn't have felt, um, otherwise. I, um, obviously you may not know this, but my, I come from a political family too. And, um, when I was younger, I didn't really understand that my dad was like a person people cared about in politics till I got to be like around 13 and he ran for president the first time. Everybody I ever am involved in in politics loses when they run for president. I'm like so I didn't experience what your children are experiencing, but how do you keep them, you know, guarded from the ugliness in the world, you know, keep normalcy in their lives. I, I hope you don't mind. I saw a swing set right outside for your children. I assume your children and, um, this, you know, we're sitting in the Naval observatory and, um, one of your members of your staff was telling me this is like the first time in like since Al Gore that there were children living here. And I guess his children were much older. Um, so how do you keep a sense of normalcy and is it exciting to have your children incorporated so much? Because my parents did that and I loved it. So it is exciting. Um, but the way that we incorporate them, I guess, I guess the way that we think about it is what would their life be like if we just took all of this away and what would we want for them? And almost every decision that we make is directed at making it as much like what it would have been like if they'd been growing up at Cincinnati as we planned. Um, and so sometimes that means they're at public events because if there were a cool military parade or something like that, they'd want to go see it. Right. And if their dad was going to go be doing something that they're interested in, they want to be with him and experience it as a family of five and not just dad's off doing this other thing. Um, but we also make a lot of decisions that kind of keep them out of the public eye and make them have to do pretty normal prosaic things. Like they have to put away their laundry, right? They have to, if they spill something, they have to clean it up. They just, we're trying to live in the same way that we would, which is hard when there are people ready to dive in at any moment saying, I'll do this for you, or I'll help you with that. Or I'll give you this special gift or special entrance. Um, so, so far I think it's going pretty well. They're conscious of the change and sometimes they don't really like the change of not being a family of five doing everything, um, for ourselves as a kind of unit. But it, I think it's a really, it's a good challenge and it kind of helps keep all of this life, um, keep us be more of the people that we would like to be because we have to make their lives be the lives that we would like them to have. Um, if that makes any sense. Yeah. And I think I know a lot of people who grew up in political families that have a real sense of normalcy and are cool. So I don't think you guys seem like you've got a lot of it figured out. Um, how do you talk to them about hard things? There was a child in my sister's, or I'm sorry, my sister, my daughter's class, um, whose parent died. And it was very challenging for my husband and I to talk to her about just, you know, it was like a first real life conversation we had to have with her. How do you talk to them about intense things like that? Well, they're not very familiar with world affairs, I would say. So a lot of the really terrible things that happen in the world, they just, they're not attuned to. Um, but they are, and especially because they're growing up in this area, they're aware of concepts like war at an age that they might not have been otherwise. And of course we've had, we've had losses in our own family. JD's father passed away, um, not so long ago and they were there for that. So we, yeah, thank you. It was, it was very sudden and, um, it was really the first time that we were able to talk about these sorts of things. Um, but I think we just approach it probably the same way you do, right? Where each of these children has a different capacity for understanding. I mean, frankly, when JD's dad died, we watched the Lion King because that was one of the, the access points that seemed like it would help them understand what was going on. Um, and we just try, we, we try to keep things as kind of quiet and calm as possible, especially when they're hearing big concepts like that there's a war between Ukraine and Russia or something like that and try to, um, try not to let it consume them in the way that I think it can when kids on the playground around here talk about these sorts of things. They, I mean, they want to play games about like current events. They want to do all of these things that just wouldn't be happening if they weren't in Cincinnati. So I think we maybe are a little bit more intentional about keeping our kids sheltered. Sure. Then we would be in a different environment. Are your children more like you or more like your husband? Oh, that's a good question. Everyone says that Vivek, our kind of wild child is just like JD was when he was little. So there's that. And then they have a lot of his interests, but I think in personality, our, um, oldest child and our youngest child are more like me. I love it. It's so fun to see your personalities come out in your children. At least I have loved that experience. Um, I want to pivot a little bit and ask you just about being second lady. I wanted to share a story with you. My sister is originally adopted from Bangladesh. And when my dad ran for president in the year 2000, there was a very dark scandal related to the fact that my sister is from Bangladesh and I don't even deal into it. People can Google it. And it's been so wonderful for me to see going from this time in America, where having a South Asian member of your family was something that was controversial and dark to now having a second lady who has a first South Asian second lady of the United States. Do you take the responsibility and the role? Um, I mean, is it a lot of pressure because so many of the South Asian women in my life really admire you really look up to you and just find, you know, honestly seeing a mixed family. So refreshing at this level in our country. Well, um, I'm really sorry to hear that about your sister that she's fine. Thank you. I mean, people can be awful. So, yes. Um, but to answer your question, I, I don't think I, I don't, I don't feel a lot of pressure necessarily on a daily basis, but I am pretty well attuned to feeling pressure when I meet with, um, older Indian people and they kind of give me that look. I wasn't wondering of a parent or grandparent. And so I have heard from a lot of people, how proud they are and how excited they are for this. And that does give me a little bit of a sense of purpose, um, a little bit of a goal to write, to, to live up to their expectations and to do this well. Um, but for the most part, it's frankly, just not really been an issue. It's not been something that people are hyper-focused on. I don't know why maybe we've just sort of moved beyond trying to count firsts of everything, or I'm not sure. Um, and so most of what we're thinking about is just how to do the best job at large, right? How to be good parents, how to represent the country in a way that we can be proud of, um, you know, kind of screw up and do something embarrassing on national television. I've done that every day for tons of years. There's no way you could do that, but it's not just that you're, you know, a South Asian second lady. You're also, you're, you're younger than me. I'm 40. Um, and it's just, I can't explain it. I, I have felt such, I don't know, excitement that you're a modern person of my generation. You and your husband are older millennials like me. Um, is there any pressure in that? I mean, does it sound weird to hear me be like, I'm so excited when I have someone my age? No, that's really nice of you. And you know, there is, there is actually some pressure there. I think this is mostly internal. Um, one of the things that's kind of difficult about this life is that you're constantly set apart. So people call you ma'am. No one's ever called me ma'am before this. I mean, frankly, no one ever called me Mrs. Vance before this, right? Mrs. Is not a title that 30 year olds often, often get called. Um, uh, let's see what else there's the security element where you enter through, you know, weird back doors to get into a restaurant. There's the public element where people are socially distant from you in various ways, either because they really just hate something about you or because they're a little uncomfortable or maybe because they think it's a mark of respect. So where there's star struck, maybe that's, that's an element too. Yeah. So there are all of these ways in which you're just sort of pulled out of everyday life. And the pressure that I feel is how to reinsert myself in it at every possible turn and actually just be a millennial person living in the world as opposed to some sort of like figure on television. Um, and so sometimes that means doing things that are likely to make some people just think that I'm a little ridiculous, like not always getting my hairstyle, not always getting fancy makeup done, going out to the gym and coming out sweaty and walking down the street and getting a coffee and maybe being photographed by someone. Um, and I try to do that every day, just have a normal life that is in public and ignore that people are watching it. Um, and I hope that, I hope that that is helpful, right? That it shows that you can be in a position of some prominence in, in the public eye, but still sort of be a part of this generation and do the same things that everyone else does. What do you do for you to relax and, you know, decompress? Um, well, I mean, I've been taking a lot of gym glasses, which is actually new for me. I never really had any time to do that before. And so now I've been working out a lot more. What kind of classes, just straight workouts? Well, I've been doing a variety of things. So Pilates, I just tried a hot yoga class, which was the sweatiest thing I've ever done. I threw up in the one I did. I threw up in a, it was so in there. I'm sorry to admit this to everybody. Yes. I threw up in the class. I'm not kidding. Don't do hot yoga. It's everybody's laughing. I'm sorry. Don't do that. Sorry. I hate hot yoga. Sorry. Pilates is maybe more my style. And then I've been doing, um, a lot of the high intensity workouts because I've found that having someone tell me what to do at every step is a lot better than me trying to do it myself. Sure. Just not a natural exerciser. So there's that. And then I have all of these kind of other self-improvement projects that I've undertaken. Um, I've started taking German lessons again, after kind of a many year hiatus. Uh, there are all these books that I had as a backlog that I've been reading. I have toys that I'm making for my kids. Um, so I do try to have these kind of personal projects that are just fundamentally unrelated to anything in politics. And then, um, I'm turning my attention also to, you know, what kind of substantive things can I do from this position that may not be, you know, working in law may not be litigating all the things that I was accustomed to doing, but are still aligned with my own personal interests and values. And that's actually been really exciting to get some of that off the ground. Do you, um, ever do anything like you go out with your girlfriends or get to do anything like this? Just very, you know, frivolous. Like I do. Yeah, absolutely. Actually. Um, this weekend, a whole bunch of my friends are flying in from, um, mostly from California, the kids that I grew up with, um, who are now my best friends in the world. And we're spending some of the time here and some of the time out. We're going to be whitewater rafting, um, hiking, going to breweries, things like that. So fun. Okay, good. Um, you were talking about the things you can do as a platform. I would be remiss without bringing up the reading, the summer reading challenge. Um, I am very excited about this. I'm going to do this with my children. Can you explain a little bit to me why you chose this, um, why it's important and what people can do to get involved? Sure. So why I chose this, um, the backdrop is of course that literacy scores have been dropping. We, I mean, they've been dropping consistently and it's not just COVID related, though that accelerated it. So kids are just reading less and able to read less to begin with. And then I have, and I think most parents of kids, you know, my kid's age have a great deal of concern about what the future looks like with the devices that they have. Right. Um, I mean, I know when I have my iPhone on me, it's a constant distraction. It messes with my ability to reflect on things, to focus. I have to put it in another room. And I think I'm pretty good about that, but I know that I'm, I'm worse at a kind of attention, um, than I was when I was 15 or even 25. And it really worries me, right? Like I don't want that for my children. I want them to be able to sit down and focus on what they, it is that they want to think about to really dive deep into it and to come to their own conclusions about things that are informed by that kind of reflection. So the summer reading challenge is the first, I think of, of many small attempts to make a difference and to see what actually works at drawing children into the world of, you know, things and not of devices and, um, giving them the time and space to, to just think. Um, I think literacy is maybe the antidote to all of this. I mean, the more you get drawn into a book, the less you're doing something else, the more you're excited about a new idea, the more you want to pick up that idea and continue following it through other books, through museums, through movies, through whatever it is. Um, so the summer reading challenge is kind of a first attempt to tackle that by giving a positive alternative to the kinds of things that might distract little kids at their age. Um, but we're thinking about all sorts of other ways, like little, little interventions, ways of enticing, um, kids to pick up books, uh, and, and you'll see us roll those out, I think, over the course of the next year. And people sign up and it's four books a month, correct? Oh yeah. So people sign up for this and all you have to do is read 12 books, any 12 books that you choose. I mean, I don't care what they are, as long as the little kid and his or her parent are happy, that's great. And to just write a little reflection or draw a reflection if you can't write about it, share what you liked about reading and send it in. And then we'll have a lottery to have someone come and visit the White House and send a certificate to everyone who participates. And hopefully next year we'll be able to roll it out on a broader scale, um, get more and more kids involved. Do you think this is going to be your issue, children reading literacy? I think, I think it is going to be a major issue that I'm interested in. And it makes a lot of sense because, you know, I have three kids at home and I'm, you know, teaching one of them to read right now and the other two are reading on their own. And so I think it'll, it'll be really consistent with just what we're doing in life generally. Um, but I'm, we'll see, there may be other things that I feel like getting involved in. My, I guess my perspective is if you go out and announce a big issue, then people are going to expect to see certain types of results right off the bat and, or maybe they're going to attribute some kind of political motive or start to polarize around it. My way of thinking is there are all sorts of small ways in which I can use this platform to make things just a little bit better for other people. Sometimes it's by connecting resources towards the end, ends that we've been discussing. Sometimes it's by just drawing attention to summer learning loss and what you can do about it. And we're going to experiment, um, hopefully mostly in this vein, but maybe we'll try other experiments too. I love it. And I think it's a really great idea. Like I said, I'm going to do it with my children. It made me feel a little better that I was like, 12 books. And I was like, is it like the Hobbit and big books? And then I read and I was like, it can be like the Very Hungry Caterpillar. So that makes me feel a lot better. Can I ask you about cooking? Um, I understand that you're a big cook, your husband's a big cook and that your husband actually learned how to cook Indian food from your mother. Is that correct? Can you tell me how, uh, this is a part of your lives? I love, I don't cook at all. My husband's a fantastic cook. So I, I love people who cook. So we both really like cooking. Um, and when we met JD didn't know how to cook a thing. Um, there was some chicken dish that he could make and really nothing else. He made some pretty good pancakes actually. But he, he kind of took it as a challenge when he realized that I was vegetarian. He just had no idea what a vegetarian diet would look like to learn how to cook things that I would enjoy eating. Um, and so the first place that he went was actually to my mom to learn how to make some of the dishes that I enjoyed. Um, cause some of his experiments had not gone that well before that. What's your favorite? That he makes or just generally? Either one. Um, let's see. Well, he's, he's, he's now mostly transitioned to baking. That's his thing. So he is an excellent baker. I am terrible at baking. He makes really, really good chocolate chip cookies, which sounds simple, but they've been the product of many years of experimentation. He makes amazing biscuits, which is a type of food that I didn't particularly love until I met him. And then I realized how good they could be. Um, he's been taking up cakes recently. He's made some really good cakes. So that's, those are my favorites of, of what he does. Um, how do you incorporate good protein into being a vegetarian? Because I've tried to be a vegetarian and my iron level got very low and I wasn't getting enough protein. Do you have any suggestions for people mating, maybe wanting to become vegetarian? Um, well, sure. I think I was lucky that I was raised vegetarian. I was raised vegetarian in a, in a cuisine that knew how to cook for vegetarians, right? Like a cuisine that already accommodates all of the dietary needs of vegetarians. So I've always defaulted to beans and legumes. Um, I also really enjoy eggs and there are lots of ways that you can incorporate those into both Indian dishes and non-Indian dishes and, you know, meals from morning to evening. Um, I guess my, my view is that it's really hard to think about vegetarian diets as substituting for meat. That's just the wrong way to do it. The better way to do it is to have a number of smaller things on your plate and to have some of those have protein and some of those be vegetables and some be fruit and to think about a meal in a more holistic way. Um, at least the more practical way to do it. If you're living in a largely meat eating environment. Do you, um, have a specialty that you cook? Um, well, I actually really enjoy cooking, but I'm sort of an experimental cook, which my kids can tell you. The way that I like to do it is to have a fridge full of things that we've picked out and then try to figure out what you can make out of that for the course of the week, almost like chopped or top chef or something like that. Um, so I don't really have a specialty. I think I just have a broad range of skills that have developed through experimentation. Do your children eat meat? They do. Um, I want to switch gears again and talk about something that's a little frivolous, I know, but your fashion. Um, you, I don't know if you know this, but people are very excited and interested in your fashion, particularly around the inauguration. You were on a lot of best dressed lists. A lot of people said you were the best dressed of all places. I just think you really look so chic and modern all the time. I know, um, that's probably something weird to hear cause it, but it's a part of the job. You know, people are interested in our, our women in politics, their fashion. Um, are you interested in fashion? Is this a new thing? Um, do you care about fashion? Cause you always look so chic. Well, it's really nice for you to say it's a, it's definitely a new thing. Um, it's not that I don't enjoy clothes or fashion or anything like that, but I've always tried to have a pretty small wardrobe and to wear things basically until they wear out. So it's never been, I've never been really chasing, um, looking like the most fashionable person out there. And that is sort of the way that I continue to think about it now where there are moments where they're very high profile and it's really exciting to get to work with someone to, to wear something that's special and different from anything I've ever worn before with inauguration being a great example. And then there are a lot of other times where my attitude is, I have a closet, let's just mix and match what's in it and find something that's appropriate for the occasion without having to constantly go out and buy new things and be, um, make that the priority of my life. And I think it's sort of consistent with what we were talking about before about how I'm trying to think, what would I do if I were back in Cincinnati living the life that I set out to live? I wouldn't be buying a new outfit for every event, right? Like I wouldn't necessarily have my hair done and my makeup done. I would just try to be me and to feel like myself and be comfortable in that environment. Um, so sometimes I think people will like what I wear and sometimes they're probably going to hate it, but, um, I'm just doing the best to, that I can to feel like myself and not like this kind of, you know, second lady figure, as I might've imagined it. Um, do you work with a stylist? Well, I have, I have this, uh, text thread of friends that I work with. So one of them works in the fashion industry and she has been really, she like loves picking out outfits and suggesting ideas and she's been a really great help. But another one is, you know, my neighbor and another one is, uh, another friend that I had from childhood. So do you like text outfits and say, yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. We've, um, we've taken pictures of everything in my closet and put it on this, this app where everyone can kind of mix and match things and say, what if you wore this with that or that with this? Um, do you enjoy, like you just, I saw a picture of you at Les Miserables. Um, do you enjoy like getting dressed up and going out that way or does it feel like stressful? Um, I do enjoy it. Um, it can be, it can be kind of stressful. Uh, it's, it's one thing to get dressed up and go to someone's wedding and like have a great time with your friends. And it's another thing when there's just a bank of cameras looking at you from every angle. Um, but I'm trying to ignore that part of it and just enjoy the experience. How do you and the vice president have a date night that feels normal if that's even possible? And do you have a go-to of like, you're like, okay, we have a night off. I can do whatever I want. We have a babysitter. Like what's your ideal date night? Um, well, it kind of depends on where we are. Uh, in Cincinnati, we have all of our go-to places. And so that's really easy. There are restaurants we like, there are walks that we love to take. Um, we love to go kayaking or canoeing. So that's another thing that we, we actually did that for father's day, but we also do that just the two of us. Um, so in Cincinnati, we have a good sense of normalcy and our, our date nights are just basically anywhere where we can be without sort of being spotted. And we try to kind of disguise ourselves a little bit and, um, make that a little easier. Has anyone given you any advice, like other political figures on, you know, just to have that kind of normalcy so you guys can have a date alone or, you know, have some semblance of privacy? Um, same goodness advice on that front. Uh, someone did tell JD to wear a hat and that it would cut down on the number of people who recognize him dramatically, which is a hundred percent true. Okay. That's been a really helpful tip. It means that we can go do things with our kids and like get out even just even, like I said, even take the dog for a walk, just the two of us and be able to talk without people constantly noticing. And that sense of being anonymous in public is honestly the best of all dates for us because it's what life is supposed to be like, right? It's like what, what a good life is like. Um, so we've really enjoyed that. Um, but I don't, I, there aren't special places in DC or anything that we've heard about from other people. Do you miss Ohio? I do actually. I, um, we moved to what we called our dream house or our forever house when we moved there. And it really is the place where I feel most at home. Um, what has been the hardest thing that you've had to give up so far in this transition? Oh, um, well, I can answer for JD and say driving. That's a really hard one for him, but for all of us, it's actually related. We used to be big road trippers and that's just not a thing that we can do anymore. Just road tripping. That's I can see. I love road tripping too. I can see how that would be, be very challenging. What's the most fun thing about being second lady? Um, I mean, just the wealth of experiences that come with it. I meet different people every day. Um, we get to go really incredible places. And I think there's something very special about going everywhere and knowing that you're doing it because you're representing your country in some capacity. It makes it feel, um, instead of just pure consumption, when you're traveling, it's an opportunity to sort of give something, uh, every opera, every interaction is an opportunity to show something about our country and to be a kind person to other people to kind of, um, I think that feels pretty special and it's something that I didn't really understand before this. How has it been moving into the Naval Observatory? And is it difficult to make a space like this feel like home because, you know, so many political families have lived here before and, you know, there's obviously staff around at least in moments like this when people come in with cameras. Um, have you felt like you've been able to make this place home? I do actually. This is a really special place. We feel very lucky that we're living here. Um, it's the kind of place, I mean, you walked in, you saw the kids can just run out. We can let the dog out. They can sprint around by themselves and have very normal experience. And it really is a home before anything. Um, so this floor is where we would do primarily entertaining, but all of the, I mean, this fabric is dog proof and kid proof. Okay. Uh, everything is not fragile. Everything can be colored on, you know, you can have all their kids, friends come over and have play dates. So it feels very much like a place that you live as opposed to a kind of museum that we're in. Um, and then I can't, I just can't speak highly enough about the people who work here. The Naval Observatory is, is part of a naval base, right? So the staff here are all enlisted members of the Navy and also the Marine Corps. And they are just amazing. Um, our kids have befriended them. We've befriended them. It's really exciting when they, you know, get, they get engaged. We have a party for them. They come upstairs all the time and are, we're showing them all the crafts that we're doing. We go downstairs to the basement and admire all their cooking. Um, so it's actually, it's additive in some ways. I can imagine. I just think it is. I, when I heard that you were able to pick out some of the furniture and stuff, I was like, Oh, I guess that that would help make it feel a little more homey. Um, I have to ask this question. Um, you know, I, the elephant in the room, so to speak, uh, not to be ironic and using the elephant is there is a not so small chance that you could be our first lady in a few years. And I find that a very exciting potential, you know, possibility. Um, I wanted to know, is that stressful for you? Is it exciting? Is that something you think about? Is this something everyone is asking you everywhere you go? Well, people do ask about it, but I guess the way three years ago, or maybe it's four years ago at this point, I had absolutely no intention of, um, leading any sort of life in politics. It really is that rapid. And then when we moved our kids to school in, in this area, it was with no intention whatsoever of JD running for a new office. And so my attitude is that this is a four year period where I have a set of responsibilities and, uh, to my family, to myself, to obviously the country. And that's really what I'm focused on. I'm not plotting out next steps or really trying for anything after this. And in a dream world, eventually I'll be able to live in my home and kind of continue my career and all those sorts of things. And if that happens in four years, I understand if that happens at some other point in the future, I understand, um, just sort of along for the ride and enjoying it while I can. My last question for you, cause I'm, I'm promised I would be on time is, um, when you found out that vice president Vance was being chosen as vice president and you knew, you know, there are just some things in your life when you get news of something, you just know your life's about to completely do a 180 and everything's about to change. How did you feel when you found that out that it was happening? Again, you were more than likely to become our second lady and how has the transition been? Because some people come into these positions, I mean, not to be like, you know, tacky here, but there's some house of cards people in this town that plot to be in politics since birth. And that's obviously not your story. Um, how is it feel now? I mean, this is a huge transition for you in the past six months. Yeah, no. Um, when it, when we first found out it was maybe five minutes before it was made public and yeah, and maybe, maybe about an hour or so before, um, he was nominated on the floor. So I would say the way that I felt was just overwhelmed with the practicalities of things. We had to suddenly move hotel rooms. We suddenly had a secret service detail, um, this, that, and the other, there was really no opportunity for reflection or anything like that. Um, so it's only at a remove that I realized how much changed and, you know, what the opportunities are. This, it really was like a bolt of lightning. And when that happens, you just don't have an opportunity to, to think about it or even to plan what it is that you'd like to do. I don't think I started really planning the way that I'd like to spend this time until after inauguration, because the entire period running up to it was just so consumed first with campaign and with learning to live with a secret service detail with learning to be in the public eye. Um, so now actually, this is, this is maybe the truly the fun part, right? Where I can start bringing projects to the light, um, working on things that I'm excited about. I have a full staff. Like it's a, it's a time of opportunity and I'm, I'm really looking forward to it. Well, I just want to thank you for this time and welcoming me into your home. I really just, I'm such a fan of yours. I think you're so cool. I really hope you are a first lady someday. Am I saying that you don't have to say it. I will. And I just want to thank you for your time and all the parenting advice. And I wish you the best of luck. And I hope you have so much fun with your friends. Thank you. And congratulations again. Thanks for letting me, like, I was like, I don't know how to announce this. And I was like, this is kind of a weird way to do it, but you seem cool. So thank you for the advice.