#55 Unlocking Crypto: Chris's Insights into Wealth Management Innovation

What's your crypto story? How'd you how'd you get into the crypto space? So I originally got into crypto back in 2014. I was undergrad at the time at Penn State, and I signed up to do a PWC case study on how to tax virtual currency, which is pretty funny because that is a big reason why a lot of RIAs and wealth managers use our platforms for the tax implications and tax advantages of tax loss harvesting and owning these assets directly. So that's where I originally got into it. At the time, it was still a $5 to $10 billion asset class. So as an undergrad, I was like, I don't know if I want to go into this full time when I graduated in 2017. Graduated in 2017, worked at a firm doing due diligence on private equity deals, and decided about eight months in to move into the crypto space full time. I had been personally investing since 2014 and saw, hey, this is taking off. It's getting a lot of traction. There's real institutional investment firms starting to allocate to this asset class. So I left in Q2 of 2018 to join Morgan Creek Capital, where they were raising a dedicated venture fund to invest in crypto, blockchain, and digital asset companies. So I was there for a little bit over a year, primarily sourcing deals, working with founders, executing investments into trading platforms, custodians, data platforms. We invested in digital assets directly. We invested in other funds as well. So I got to see a wide array of how people were allocating to this market. So that's where I originally cut my teeth in the space. And at the time, there was two insights that I found from working at Morgan Creek. One is that most of the value of centralized companies building in the crypto space were accruing to the companies where they were helping new investors onboard into the asset class. So that was, at the time, Coinbase, Binance, Kraken. Primarily, the onboarding mechanisms, GBTC and Grayscale even, were the ones where value was accruing. So that was one insight. The other insight is that the crypto market was either building for institutions. So at Morgan Creek, we would take capital from institutions to invest in other companies, or for the retail market, which is like the degen market, or just trading and derivatives and all those things. And everyone was ignoring the market in between, which is the US and global wealth management market. It's a $30 trillion market. And the gatekeeper of that capital is financial advisors. And the narrative and messaging of crypto companies was not resonating with financial advisors. So I decided, and then some other background is my dad's financial advisor at UBS. I grew up interning for him. So really deeply understood the wealth management market, how advisors work with clients, how they allocate capital, how they look at different investments, how you do due diligence, compliance, all those different rails. So those were kind of the two insights is one, how can you onboard and provide access to a new group of users or investors of this asset class? And two, financial advisors at the time, which was 2019, I started Eaglebrook in May of 2019, didn't have a way to directly access Bitcoin outside of some proxy like GBTC or PayPal or Cash App, some of the equities type structures. So I ended up leaving Morgan Creek to start Eaglebrook. We raised capital from wealth management executives. So we really wanted to work with large RIAs. So we brought a lot of the large RIA founders into the mix, Rick Edelman, Mark Cassidy, Marty Bicknell, Mike Alford, among others were initial backers of the company. And as part of that, we actually ended up partnering with Mariner Wealth Advisors, which is one of the top three RIAs in the US. I think they have around 150 billion in assets right now, thousands of financial advisors. We actually built this with them. They had a few advisors at the time that did want to allocate clients' assets to digital assets. So for about 18 months, we built this with Mariner Wealth Advisors, and then we launched in March of 2021, which was very timely. Digital assets, risk assets were in very high demand at the time. Advisors, there's really no way for them to access Bitcoin and Ethereum directly. So that's primarily what we did was put Bitcoin and Ethereum into separately managed accounts. We weren't actively managing them. Eaglebrook is a technology platform. It's purely a separately managed account platform. So we provide the portal, the onboarding workflows, the integrations for the financial advisor to allocate to this market. So that's primarily what we did. The biggest thing that advisors really liked or were requesting was automated tax loss harvesting. So throughout 2021, we built an automated tax loss harvesting system. So that was very advantageous. Yeah. That's really cool because that's definitely something that people need to take advantage of in the crypto space. And I've done my part in not taking advantage of that in the past. So that's definitely a huge necessity. So tell us about the advisors that you work with. So you mentioned before products such as Eaglebrook, a lot of people would maybe invest like GBTC. Tell us about maybe some of the avenues that people were using in the past and maybe some of the advantages of using a platform like Eaglebrook today. Yeah. I would say pre-2021, very few advisors were allocating even a GBTC. But at the time, that was really what they were using where they were using a proxy like a Bitcoin miner, ETF or something similar. But I would say 2021, well, I'll back up. 2017 is when I think Bitcoin was brought into the vernacular of financial professionals. They weren't really aware of it before 2017, but then they saw it go down 85% from December 2017 to 2018. So they kind of dismissed it. 2021, a lot of advisors were caught flat-footed and that's how we were able to onboard 70 RIAs from 2021 until now. And they were like, hey, our clients want this. We have no solution. We're not sure exactly how to do this. So that's where we started to work with them. And how our platform works is we set them up accounts at a qualified custodian. We're currently partnered with Gemini Trust Company and Anchorage Digital. So we'll set them institutional account, cold storage. We'll invest it for them and then we'll report it back to their systems. And right now we work with about 800 financial advisors that are actively using our platform to allocate to digital assets. Well, that's a big number. That's exciting. Congratulations on that. I'm curious as you've onboarded these advisors, financial advisors, the education process, right? What does it look like? What are the questions being asked? What are the kind of more trends that you're seeing? Because it is a big, there's a lot of education going into this from a finance perspective. I just love to hear kind of the thoughts there. So I hear a lot about education, but I kind of want, I would like to talk about what actually happens in practice and what drives action. I think advisor education on the asset class is great, but no matter how much education you do for advisors, I think because of the nature of the asset class, it's hard to value. It's very polarizing from a philosophical and political perspective that no matter how educated an advisor is, they're actually not actively recommending this or putting it into client portfolios. Now there are some that do less than 1%, but more than 1% advisors allocate to digital assets for clients. This asset class is very different. It is primarily client driven. So how we've seen it is, let's say an advisor has a hundred clients, $500 million bulk, and they have one or two clients that come to them and say, hey, I want to expose your digital assets. We'll sign them up, but that's not the advisor being educated. It's more of the clients asking about it. Then the advisor will reach out to us or do their own research. And what we really try to do is, as opposed to really trying to convince the advisor on why they should allocate, give the client a client approved material that's very easy to understand. What is this asset class? Why am I investing? How does it fit into my portfolio? And what structure am I using? Whether it's Bitcoin ETF, crypto SMA, venture fund, hedge fund, whatever the client objective is for this specific asset class is what's really important. And that's really what drives the action. But then what we found is that once one or two clients of the advisor allocate, then the advisor can start talking about it. And then we find that about 20% or more of their clients and of their book actually do want to allocate because the advisor reverse brought it up to them, which isn't actively recommending it or putting it portfolios. It's kind of in the middle. And that's where we see actually a lot of activity and volume come from is just the advisors that allocated for a few clients. They thought it was only going to be for one or two and kind of a isolated scenario, but it ended being for 20, 25% of their total. Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah. Interesting trend there. I guess on that note, how are advisors thinking about it today? I'm sure there's still a really good portion of advisors that say, we don't know anything about crypto. We're not interested in crypto. How in general, from your sense, are advisors kind of telling folks like, hey, you should have 1% of your assets in Bitcoin or crypto or what is their mindset right now? I think it goes to my last point. The reality is they're not telling clients you need to have exposure. And there's two reasons. One, if it ends up the value of their client generating a few extra basis points in return, it's not worth it to lose some of their clients if they invest now and it goes back down to 20,000. It's just risky from that volatility perspective. Now you can say, hey, we're long-term investors. If you hold Bitcoin for three years, typically there's only been an increase in performance despite the volatility. So I think that's what we're seeing from advisors. So it's more of the push from their underlying clients, right? As you mentioned, as really the driver. It is all client-driven, but it kind of becomes a big momentum thing where, like I was saying, one to two clients, maybe right now one to two clients are asking about it. In 2021, it was like 80% of clients in the past 12 months had asked about digital assets. And that's really what drives that flywheel. Since 2022, I would say from FTX to now, client demand has really fallen off. I think one equity is going down in 2022 and rates going up and risk assets kind of coming out of favor at that period. And then actually a lot of the interest in risk assets shifting to AI is kind of like AI is the new hot dog. That's what crypto was in 2021. That's really where it shifted. But I think there's going to be a convergence between people that want exposure to NVIDIA, AMD, and other AI type investments. That's going to converge with crypto as they're actually, I think, complimentary as an asset class. And investors are going to start to understand that. But crypto is a very psychological market. And once the, I would say, positive feedback loop of price going up, media cycle, that leads to more people investing, plus with the ETF, I think it's going to kind of culminate to a similar situation that we saw in 2013, 2017, and 2021. So I really expect things to start to pick up in Q4 of this year and probably go until the first quarter of 2026. Yeah, that makes sense. As far as just from an investor allocation point of view, what's the typical allocation that you see these days as of late? I love talking about this because no one really talks about this, I would say on Twitter or in videos. What you see is, hey, low single digits, 1% to 2%. And you should do that for all your clients. In practice, that's not what's happening at all. It's that 20% to 25%. But the ones that are doing it in that cohort of 25 clients out of 100 are doing 5% to 10%. They're doing a much larger allocation. So if you look at the total book, it does end up being 1% to 2% of the advisor's assets, but it's only 25%. So it's kind of like the 80-20 rule there. I think that is a trend we're going to start to see, is larger ticket sizes and larger percentages for the investors that work with the advisors that actually do want to allocate to this asset class, because they believe in it. They've been doing their own research, and they understand, hey, I want to have a meaningful position, right? I just want to have 1%. That's not really going to add a ton of risk-adjusted value to my portfolio with Bitcoin. We just pair it with gold by 2032. So let's talk about your product and your offering. Walk us through what it looks like. I'm assuming this is maybe a platform where the RIA folks can come in, make purchases for their clients. Talk to us about sourcing. How are you guys getting the assets and maybe the custody side and how you guys are... I think you mentioned cold wallets earlier, but maybe dive into that a little bit for us. Yep. So we have an advisor portal where, as an example, AmeriWealth Advisors, they have 1,000 advisors, and about 200 of their advisors are using our platform. So they will onboard to our advisor portal. And when they're onboarding a client, they can select a few different types of investments in our product suite. There's a lot of optionality. One that I think is very interesting that we see advisors first come online with is not clients investing new cash, clients that own digital assets in a hot wallet or retail wallet that want to move it over to their financial advisor to have it in their estate plan, financial plan, wealth plan. So of the 250 million assets we have, 37% of that is from in-kind transfers. And what that does is the advisor doesn't actively recommend it. They're providing value to their client to move it to a more secure, integrated place. And that really helps their client. It's all under the same roof. They don't need to trade themselves. And then we'll add the automated tax plus harvesting piece. So that's kind of like the one area. The second area is access to tax managed Bitcoin and Ethereum products. So that was what we first launched with. And I would say at the beginning, it was access to Bitcoin and Ethereum directly, low cost that advisors didn't have access to. Nick Neumannis Now with the ETFs, the story really is on that tax management side where, hey, if you can generate 30%, 40% of your total portfolio value and harvest those losses to defer taxes, well, you can keep that 30% to 40% in the equities market and have that generate returns over the next 30 years. And there's a lot of after-tax alpha involved in that. And then the third, the area that I think our business is going to grow towards the most that we launched in 2022 is having third-party managers on our platform, which is similar to how traditional separately managed accounts run. So right now, there's $10.7 trillion in traditional separately managed accounts that's managed by large managers like BlackRock, Franklin Templeton, State Street, firms like that. And we ported that idea over. Nick Neumannis So we currently have a few different managers that run active portfolios of assets that include both Bitcoin and Ethereum and other assets that aren't available in the ETF structure. And they're looking to generate outperformance with those various portfolios. So we work with Franklin Templeton, ARK Invest, and Bitwise among a few other managers. And that area is, I think, because of the nascency of the asset class and I would say the complexity of the asset class, there's a lot of alpha for active management and advisors see that and they want exposure to that. Nick Neumannis So we're starting to see that a big part of our platform offering will be access to that professional management or management that you can't get an ETF wrapper. The only other way you can get it is by investing in a crypto hedge fund, but that's 2 and 20, locked up, K1s, all this stuff. This is the client owns it directly in their account. There's daily liquidity, right? There's no issues and there's very low counterparty risk because they own it at a qualified custodian in their name in an individual account, joint account, trust account, IRA, LLC, nonprofit, whatever it might be. And that gives the advisor and the client a lot of comfortability with the structure because they know that they're interfacing with Gemini Trust Company, a qualified custodian or Anchorage Digital. So that's kind of on the backend when you were asking, that's how that works. And in terms of sourcing, so we're an SEC registered investment advisor. We have to keep all of our assets under a qualified custodian at all times to follow the custody rule. So on Gemini, we use Gemini's open order book. And on Anchorage, we use, they have an agency desk that sources the liquidity, but it all is within the accounts. The assets aren't leaving and getting traded somewhere else and then moving back. That would be very operationally efficient and honestly introduce a lot of security risk that's unnecessary. So that's primarily the structure on the backend from a trading and custody perspective. That's great. That's definitely helpful. Obviously, to your point, SMA is a separately managed account set of things is alive and well with advisors and digital asset warm, if you will. Yeah, I would say it's still the very early innings. It's the demand for these assets go, I would say, in bear markets go away. In 2018, no one wanted to invest in crypto. In 2022 and 2023, no one wanted to invest in crypto. But there is a 18 to 24 month period where people adopt things really quickly. Where at the time when we launched, we had four people on staff and we scaled up to almost 200 million assets in an eight month period. So when the demand comes, it's very strong and we're starting to see that pick back up with the introductions of the ETFs and advisors understanding, hey, I want to put my client in the right structure that makes sense long-term that one can outperform Bitcoin or get exposure to assets outside of Bitcoin and Ethereum and have someone actively manage it, or two, harvest the losses in my portfolio because of the advantageous tax treatment of Bitcoin and Ethereum and other digital assets. So those are the two things that we're seeing in the market. That was actually, I would love just for those that are tuning in that aren't so familiar with the tax loss harvesting side of crypto, why don't you talk to us a little bit about that? What are some of the advantages to tax loss harvesting in the crypto space? Yep. So in traditional SMAs, the primary reason that people use SMAs is for the tax advantages, because you can sell individual securities where in an ETF or mutual fund, you can't sell those individual securities and harvest them. So advisors are very familiar with, okay, this is a tax managed, tax advantaged type of portfolio. For digital assets, it's even more compelling because of two things. One, the volatility of this asset class is extremely high compared to equities or fixed income. So one, there's more opportunities to basically harvest those losses. And two, right now, Bitcoin and Ethereum are taxed as property by the IRS. So the Washoe rule doesn't apply. Our view is that over the next few years, the Washoe rule will apply. We're already building portfolios and proprietary models tax management perspective that looks similar to what equities do. The most simple example is sell Coke by Pepsi. It'll be a lot more complex than that in the digital asset market, but you would buy a similarly correlated asset like sell Bitcoin by WBTC, sell ETH by something similar. So that's really what we're looking towards. So even when the Washoe rule does apply, the tax advantages will still be there for the separately managed account structure. Yeah. And just to clarify for some of the folks in the audience, the tax sell Washoe rule can have this obviously in the crypto side of things, you can sell within 30 day window, right? And you want to clarify for the audience on how that works in general terms. Yes, exactly. You don't need to wait 30 days to move back into the market after you've harvested losses. Which is a huge thing, obviously, but you're building to the future. As you mentioned, that may change here in the next 24 months or so, but it's very exciting to see that you guys have a solution out in the space. To Mike's point, I need to do better about my own tax loss harvesting as well. So that's a great thing. It's hard to do. I tried to do it myself. I ended up just moving my higher cost basis assets over because when it's automated 24 seven, you can just hit it versus having to log into your Coinbase account or if you do self custody, having to move it to an exchange. And by that point, maybe the prices had gone up. So being able to do it in an automated fashion is pretty advantageous. And a lot of, I would say, higher end financial advisors that work with higher net worth clients, a big thing that they do for their clients from a value add perspective is find opportunities to lower their tax bill, which is why you've seen a big rise in both SMAs and then also more specifically direct indexing platforms in traditional equities and other asset classes. And you also brought up the estate planning aspect, which I think is really valuable. So I'd love to dive into that because as a holder of digital assets, for me, that's one of the things I've thought about recently where I don't really have a good succession plan for my family. If something was to happen where I have these crypto assets stored, how the hell are they supposed to get them? So I think that's a place where a lot of users could find value. So I'd love for you to dive into that aspect of things and how that works. Yeah. So the two examples are, let's say you have a retail account on Coinbase where you do self-directed custody, making sure that's integrated to your estate plan and that the clients can access it is not very straightforward. And as the digital asset part of the client's portfolio grows, that's fairly important from an estate planning perspective, especially if you want it in certain structures like a trust or LLC or something like that. It's challenging to do that if it's a self-custody or a retail account because that's an individual account. So it really helps from a structural perspective. And then the second thing is when integrated to your estate plan and integrated to the financial advisor and they see it all next to all of their other assets, you can do things like a transfer of debt. So it immediately will move over into the estate plan when the client passes away from a succession perspective. So it's a lot more secure from that angle. So succession planning is obviously a big thing for a lot of people because it's pretty fragmented. So I think that's a great connection point for you guys. And it feeds well to the traditional narrative of wealth management, which I think is great. Financial advisors having the entire picture of their clients' financial wealth and how they're going to go about that for succession planning. So if you guys have a solution for that, I think that's amazing. I'm just curious in that process, as you go down that, I mean, you're working directly with the financial advisors. It's their end clients that they're servicing. Are they taking advantage of a mix of everything? What's the adoption rate of the succession planning within the digital asset space? Because I can imagine there's not many solutions out there yet today, right? Integrate with all the major reporting systems that RIAs use, that's Adapar, Black Diamond, Tamarack. Those are the major ones, Adapar, that we're using. And because it feeds into their reporting system and there's a transfer of death at Gemini or at Anchorage, whatever it might be, it's implemented across the board and we built it into our system. So I wouldn't say it's a huge marketing tool. I would say the marketing tool we primarily use is one, direct ownership, two, the tax management piece, and then three, access to professional management or things outside of Bitcoin and Ether. Those are the three reasons why financial advisors are putting their clients into this structure. We've actually seen advisors use both the ETF and the SMA depending on the client. If you're investing over $50,000 or $100,000, having an opportunity to harvest losses in a taxable account makes sense. If you're doing it in a 401k or a IRA, it might make more sense to buy the Bitcoin ETF because you're not going to taxable harvest there or retirement. So I think a lot of advisors are going to start adopting both structures depending on one, how much the client's investing and what their objective is, and two, what's the right structure and do they want to own things outside of Bitcoin? Yeah, makes sense. And it's interesting too, I think as we all know, usually from a portfolio point of view, digital assets are always separate and siloed. Right now, you guys have a unique perspective bringing both sides, traditional tribe buy activity, as well as digital assets together in a portfolio, optimizing that, which makes a lot of sense. Yes, exactly. And I think over time, more and more advisors, it's just going to become an allocation within the portfolio. I don't think that's going to be in this cycle just yet. And I think it's psychologically, we're just a little too close to FTX of bankruptcies and lending platforms and all those things. I think we have institutional adoption, BlackRock, Fidelity, all these major financial firms. But I would say just with the Bitcoin ETF, it's been six months. It's very new. A lot of firms won't allocate to a new product unless it has a year track record. So we're still in the very early innings of adoption. So I think down the line, let's say five years from now, it's just going to be a 5% to 10% allocation to this asset class, just like other alternatives, equities, fixed income, private equity, real estate, all those different types of investments. Robert Leonard We touched on earlier the third-party managers. Why don't you talk to us a little bit more about that? We don't need to go into specific managers, but maybe just talk to us about the type of strategies that they're offering. I'm sure that maybe there's some venture or some hedge fund or hedging strategies, but give us some scope into the different funds that you guys are working with and strategies that you guys are seeing out there. Jason Williams Yeah. So there's strategies and not funds. So it doesn't go into a fund structure. So what it would look like is- Robert Leonard Right, FMAs, right? Jason Williams FMAs. So let's say that ARK Invest is running, so they run a portfolio that excludes Bitcoin, right? And it's kind of an active management altcoin momentum trading strategy. That will be allocated across 500 accounts, and they'll send a model, and all those accounts will trade to that model. So ARK does more on the active management side, and then they have an actively managed Bitcoin and Ethereum strategy. Franklin has one index product, where it's kind of market cap weighted top 14 coins, and they have a more actively managed product. And then Bitwise has three. They have a Bitcoin and Ethereum product. They have the Bitwise 10, which is the largest index in the crypto space. And then they have a sectors leaders, where they choose the best L1s, L2s, gaming, entertainment, all the different sectors, social, within the crypto ecosystem, they'd love to allocate to and actively trade that. So that's what we see. And then we have a couple kind of smart beta, risk on, risk off, similar strategies to that. So it's not too, I would say, high volume derivatives, all these different types of things that you see with other traders and other hedge funds. Nothing illiquid, everything's liquid. So it's a little bit different from there. But from an advisor perspective, like an actively managed altcoin portfolio is pretty far out on the risk curve. So that's really what they're looking for at this stage of market top. It makes sense. You kind of touched on a few things related to kind of where the cycle is. I'm just curious from a Bitcoin market cycle and what you're hearing from who you're talking to, along with financial advisors and their underlying clients, any insights or what you're just highly, you know, your opinion, of course, but just was curious kind of what you're hearing yourself. Yeah, I think from a Bitcoin market cycle perspective, this is now my third cycle. As I start to work on it more, I'm trying to think, okay, is the four-year cycle going to hold up? Is that a coincidence? Or is that actually what's going to happen? I think I like to think of the start of the cycles from the low of the previous cycle. So I had been working in venture for six months when it was December of 2018. The asset class was trading, I think, under $100 billion market cap. And it wasn't as bad as FTX because nothing like structurally blew up and there wasn't massive fraud. But, you know, every meeting we went in, we were laughed out of the room. You know, I was reevaluating, like, did I make a wrong career choice? And it's so deeply psychological in these crypto winners that you remember that 80% drawdown and what it felt like people that were all in in 2016, 2017, and early 2018 had capitulated out of the market. So you kind of see this washout. And then I think as adoption continues, more people learn about it. The infrastructure improves. I think that's the biggest driver of the four-year cycles is that in the high cycles, so much money pours into venture and companies and infrastructure companies like Eaglebroke, Coinbase, the Bitcoin ETF, you know, custody solutions. If I try to launch this in 2016, there are not qualified students that can work with tens of thousands of clients and hundreds of financial advisors. So that increase in access and institutionalization of the market structure and the custody and trading solutions, I think that helps out a lot. And then as you kind of get further away from the low, the Bitcoin halvening happens and there's a lot more interest in the asset class. And then really because of the nature of it not being easy to be valued. And I would say when the Bitcoin price increases, demand increases. I think that's the biggest driver of Bitcoin demand. You can say, you know, an internet native sound money is going to increase when there's fiat currencies that are debasing and inflating. I think that's how people justify the fact that it just ends up kind of being this price cycle. But it's, I think, a great mechanism because it brings on tens of millions of users every four years. And yeah, some of them capitulate and leave. But the ones that stayed from, let's say, the 2021 cycle, well, those are the people adding to their bags right now because they're like, all right, I kind of see the same story. I allocated mid or late 2020. I saw some performance. It's back to trading similar to all-time highs. And then I'm a firm believer in anywhere from four to six months after the halvening. Things have shaken out. The access is there. And that's where you really start to see that run up in price. We saw that in October, November of 2020. And that's really what sparked the first run up to 60,000 on Coinbase IPO in April 2020. And then we kind of saw a double top. My view of this upcoming cycle, because it takes more capital every single cycle to move the Bitcoin market, it's going to be kind of a longer run up like we saw in 2017. The Bitcoin halving was in July of 2016. It took about 18 months to get to an all-time high, but it didn't really do a double top like we saw in 2021. But in 2013 and 2014, there was kind of a double top. So I think it's actually going to look less like the 2013, 2014, and 2021 cycle. I think it's going to look more like the 2017 cycle, which kind of put us Q4 to Q1 of 2026, where we're going to see the high of this Bitcoin market cycle. Any other trends you're seeing in the market, whether it's from RIAs or specific types of assets within the crypto space that you're seeing that jumps out at you as interesting? I think everyone is, one, initially overestimated the impact of the Bitcoin ETF about how it was going to run from basically 30, 40K all the way up to 100 just because of the Bitcoin ETF. So I think that was overestimated. We're still seeing flows, but price is kind of chopping and there's a downtrend right now. I think what people are underestimating is once the kind of FOMO, positive feedback loop cycle starts to happen, the fact that there's now anyone with a brokerage account anywhere can just click buy with a QSIP is going to add so much capital inflow into Bitcoin and Ethereum, which then is going to move into other altcoins and other assets that this is going to be the first market cycle where we're going to see price discovery. And I think it's going to be the first cycle where you actually see real adoption from RIAs, where we work with 70 RIAs. There's like 10,000 RIAs in the U.S. where the market penetration is not extremely high. And I hope to see advisors that are actively recommending it to their clients, which we really only saw with a handful of advisors over the past few years. Yeah. I mean, on that note too, one of the things that... I don't know if we brought it up yet, but I mean, one of the things about your platform is RIA is going to keep the assets. Isn't that one of the things they want? If I'm working with an RIA and I just send my Coinbase account, they don't really have control of that. Is that kind of correct, the fees and everything? Exactly. So moving held away assets to the advisor is always a big part of how they grow their business, how they grow their revenue is, okay, you have a million in cash here, or you have a million in this real estate deal, it's going to be liquid, right? There's always this held away assets that they want to move over to increase wallet share with their clients. And if their client invested $20,000 in Bitcoin in 2016 or 2018, whatever it might be, that was only $20,000, yeah, go do it, play with it. But now, oh, now it's $200,000, $300,000, it's 10% of their portfolio. The client's like, hey, I don't want to have to manage this, I don't have to deal with security, I want to move it over so it's integrated in my estate plan, I can see it, and I can add to it or scale it back depending on where we are in the market cycle. So I think they use the fact that you can do in-kind transfers as a business development tool that I think more advisors need to be aware that this is a way that they can actually increase their assets under management and their revenue because these clients have held away assets. And what we found is same thing with the advisors and the clients that were allocating to this, where it might be one client that said, hey, I got 500K in Bitcoin at Coinbase, I would like to move it over, the advisor signs up with us and does it, and then the advisor starts telling other clients a story, they find, oh, wait, I had 15 clients and $3 million of this book that I found that I could, one, add value to my client portfolio by having it moved to an institutional cold storage account, have it being automated tax loss harvesting, and then integrated to their estate plan, and I can make a fee on it and add to my revenue and production. All right, Bitcoin price prediction, what do you got for the cycle? I won't say the one for this cycle, but long-term, I think Bitcoin is going to reach parity with gold. Right now, it's at 8% market penetration. So yeah, parity with gold, $15 trillion by 2032 is what my price target is. Long-term investments versus kind of short-term speculative trade. Yeah, appreciate the insights. It's been good. Awesome. Well, Chris, this has been a lot of fun, man. Thank you so much for the time. I really appreciate your insights in the market and RIA space as well, which is interesting and different. So thank you for the time. Where can people go to connect with you and learn more about Eaglebrook? Yeah, you can go to our website, Eaglebrook.com. Please reach out. I'd love to speak with you. Awesome. Thanks, Chris. Well, we'll make sure to include that in the show notes as well so we can get a hold of you directly. That's great. Thanks for the time. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Chris.