Ancient Technology Podcast - Karahan Tepe is Changing EVERYTHING! | Hugh Newman & Kyle Allen

This is a massive missing chapter in human history and we're just not going to do it. And hopefully someone in the future might do it. But maybe they don't, you know, maybe it's not an agenda they want to do in the future. So while we're on it now, we should be doing it now. Minimal amount of it has been uncovered so far. Is it true that they want to save part of the site for newer technologies, modern excavations? There's a big debate at the moment. I know our good friend Jimmy Corsetti has been talking about this, his bright insight channel, that there's like a cover up and things like this. We've got the technology to do it, clearly, you know, we can easily excavate the whole site, you know, it's not a problem. And then now they're saying even if we dig further, we're going to find nothing of interest that's going to make us know anything more. And that doesn't make any sense to me. It's like the opposite. Yeah, they found a whole series of enclosures there. I mean, they've got the pillar trial, the structure AB, which has got like these, this head on the side of it, which is about this big. They've got, it's about six, seven meters wide. They've got these 10 bedrock pillars that look like phalluses and some people say are mushrooms. And then there's a serpent in there, there's a hole going through it to the main enclosure, which the light comes through in the winter solstice and illuminates the head. And they found this seven and a half foot human statue in there with looks like he's got shaved head here, like a mullet at the back, sort of Mohican almost. He's got like ribs showing and he looks like he's emaciated. He's holding his part, you know, like they all do. And it's incredible. It's seven and a half feet tall. I find that fascinating. And it's really strange to me that you can find this, a culture that was making terrazzo floor, which is basically cemented. They're making cement and stone tiles that doesn't have pottery. They have mortar and no pottery. Like they can't make a bowl out of that stuff. I think they wouldn't figure out that. I feel like that the cultures they're attributing it to may not actually be the original cultures. That's kind of like when I look at these different technologies that they've developed, the side-by-side technologies don't really make sense. The Orion correlation. The Orion correlation of the dark stars. We should start with them like that and then see if continuity is going to work or not. So should we start with the cheers? Yeah. Cheers. Great to be here. Spilled it on the table right off the bat. Thank you Newman. Thanks for coming on the show and also for the time. I know that you are tired and we have been walking around the Stonehenge today. It was a big day, but I hope we can have a great conversation. And also Kyle Allen from the Brothers of the Serpent podcast. It's a pleasure. Actually, we are on a trip in London, but we made a day trip to Amesbury, where we are. What's the name of this hotel? Antrobus Arms. It's a hotel with ghosts. Yes. A haunted hotel. Haunted hotel. Every building in this area appears to be haunted that I frequent. So, yeah. But frequently? Well, my house, this hotel, there's other places apparently as well that are haunted. When did it start? Probably thousands of years ago, I would imagine. Yeah. How could you relate these haunting events or ghosts to the circles? Yeah, well, there's an area around Stonehenge, interestingly, they call it the dead zone. So this is like an area spread out from the stone circle into the landscape, where my house is. And then towards Durrington and Woodhenge, they call that the zone of the living, where people would live, where there's wood and where stone seems to be related to the dead zone. So I think there's a lot of burials here, there's a lot of mounds. But also, over time, you know, very important, very powerful people were being buried in this area. So I would imagine there's going to be some kind of echo from the past affecting, you know, people today. And they've recorded it in this hotel. They have ghost tours here. So we know something's going on, for sure. It would be a good place to stay for the night. What a suggestion, I appreciate it. Well, good luck with that. Yeah. So, hey, man, the Beatles stayed here too, right? That's right. Yeah. They must have got some inspiration somehow. So maybe, you never know. Might be a good thing. Yeah, yeah. Could be a good thing. Mathieu, I would love to know, how did you start this entire research? When did it start and how did it start for you? Well, in a weird way, it started, really, this kind of stuff. When I was a kid, my mum subscribed to the Unexplained magazine, which was a phenomenon in Britain. I don't know if you got it in other countries or anything. But here, and it was a big deal. It had, like, kind of ghost, Bigfoot, UFOs, all the paranormal kind of esoteric stuff. I was like, like this. It's completely blown away. I kind of got drawn into that side of things originally. Then my mum, whenever we went away, she would travel to all these exotic, megalithic sites. I remember being in Crete. I remember being, like, Stonehenge, going off to Menorca and all these places when I was really young. Malta, one of them as well. And so it kind of just got ingrained into me, I guess. And it kind of grew from that. And you are a journalist? Yeah, I studied journalism and media and film and radio. But you're also a professional drone pilot, right? So you are flying drones from your home, from your garden in Stonehenge? Sometimes. No, never. No, I never do that. No, but no. But yeah, I'm trained as a drone pilot. Also got trained in filmmaking, stuff like that. And what's your recent research in Gobekli Tepe? I heard that you mentioned that you were in Turkey a few weeks ago. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on there. I'm working on a book at the moment. I've got another, I had a previous book just come out, a small book called Gobekli Tepe and Karahan Tepe, the world's first megaliths. And then working on a larger book with J.J. Ainsworth about expanding that, looking more into the astronomy, the mythology, and some ideas that haven't already been looked at before, looking at different aspects of these sites and how they relate to even sites like Stonehenge, for instance, because there's a lot of comparisons can be made. But there's a lot that's not being researched. I mean, we're out there all the time. We're kind of going to sites whilst they're being excavated, making our own little discoveries, like the Witness Souls Disalignment, the Karahan Tepe, amongst others. And it's kind of like, to me, it's the most important area of study on the planet at this moment, because number one, it's seriously megalithic. It's got sites like the equivalent of Stonehenge, but hundreds of them. It's got advanced geometry and metrology, the placement of sites in the landscape, the stone working quality is amazing. And these go back nearly 12,000 years. That's the thing. These have been carbon dated to that time. This isn't guessing the date. This is carbon dated by some really serious German archaeologists who did it all properly. And so that is really intriguing. And there's even evidence. I mean, you've got the Bowels of the Serpent that are being discussed, and it could be older, because a lot of the carbon dating is only done on the walls that are there, which are probably added later. And so you have this kind of potential of a whole missing chapter of history sitting there, waiting to be kind of uncovered, because a minimal amount of it has been uncovered. Why? Do you know that? It's a slow process. There's a big debate at the moment. I know a good friend, Jimmy Corsetti, has been talking about this, his Bright Insight channel, that there's cover-up and things like this. I think there's a bit of both. I think they're slow with the development of the archaeology, because they have to do it carefully. If you go to Gobekli Tepe, how deep the fill is. It's insane. It looks like 20, 30 feet, maybe 40 feet in some places of rock and stone and soil. You've got to move just to look at the top of a T-pillar. And so it's a serious amount of work. It's not like other places, where it's just under the surface. You just move away a bit of mud, and it's there. This is a whole different ballgame. So there's a bit of both. I think there is a bit of a kind of strange slowness to it, which doesn't make sense. You look at Karahan Tepe, and they're whipping through that like nobody's business. They're just, boom, they're on it. They've uncovered a huge amount already within two or three years of excavation. So there is progress happening out there, for sure. Is it true that they want to save a part of the site for newer technologies, modern excavations? That's what they say. Yeah, this was published in an account. This was published in the news. They want to preserve some of it for future generations, after 150 years in the future. Which is strange, because we've got the technology to do it, clearly. We can easily excavate the whole site. It's not a problem. And I don't know why they say that. They say that about other sites as well. They say that about the Ness of Brodgar, which they've covered over and going to save it for future generations. But to me, I feel it's backwards. There's enough money. There's enough funding. There's enough interest to get the whole thing uncovered. One of the weird things is that they're saying there's going to be nothing found that's going to increase their knowledge of the site. This is said by the main archaeologists there. Before excavation. No, no, now. They're saying even if we dig further, we're going to find nothing of interest that's going to make us know anything more. And that doesn't make any sense to me. It's like the opposite. To me, it all needs to be excavated. This is a massive missing chapter in human history. And we're just not going to do it. And hopefully someone in the future might do it. But maybe it's not an agenda they want to do in the future. So while we're on it now, we should be doing it now. This is the time to do it, in my opinion. You made an excellent documentary on the Gobekli Tepe topic, like why it was or why it wasn't deliberately buried, right? Thank you. Do you want to talk about that a bit? Yeah, I would say first off, I kind of understand the perspective of not wanting to continue excavations at that specific site. They've already built these massive constructions to sort of preserve the excavations that they have. And it's a continual process. There were the big rains before we went on our tour. And it inundated the site. And you could tell sediment had flowed back in. They were down there cleaning. They've got sandbags piled up everywhere. So due to the excavations, the site has to be constantly maintained. So there is destruction. And then, of course, you have weathering on the stones now that they're exposed. So there is an argument for that. But I also agree with you. It's like, well, we need to know about it. However, there's supposedly like 40 other sites that you could start excavations on. And in that way, you could learn more, I think, a broader picture of the culture that created these sites than just at one site. It would be like saying we need to completely deconstruct a pyramid to learn everything about a pyramid rather than just looking at all the pyramids and doing what we can at all of them without destroying them. So, I mean, maybe that's a bad analogy. But I kind of understand it. But I'm also a little bit skeptical of their reasoning for it. You can also find this in Egypt. They are not really trying to excavate the Giza plateau. Or maybe they did already, but no one knows about it publicly. The thing there, though, is that most of it's kind of on the surface on the Giza plateau. It's not much. It's moving a bit of sand. Some underground stuff, obviously. But when it comes to all the sites in Southeast Turkey, they're all buried, you know, mostly deliberately buried. Although there's arguments that there was a slope slide at Kebekli Tepe, according to the archaeologist, in one area at least. So they have to be uncovered to be looked at. You can't just, you know, it's not like you're just brushing away some sand. You know, you actually got to dig, dig deep into the ground and make sure you don't damage them on the way down. So there's a whole, you know, I can understand why they want to save some in some ways for future generations, because it is a huge effort. Yeah, and also, I mean, you could say that the field could move throughout these various different sites and uncover more stuff and put more resources to new sites and then come back around in 20 or 30 years. I mean, Kebekli Tepe has been being excavated since the 90s, right? Yeah, yeah. So it's already a future generation. That's true, yeah. At this point. They are doing a few sites. There's about six being excavated now, maybe five or six, and there's 12 they're going to excavate in total, apparently. So there's, you know, and then now we know there's, like you say, nearly 40 sites. They've announced definitely 38 sites. You know, so that's crazy. But again, some of these are going to be damaged. They're going to be partly destroyed. You're not going to see much, probably on some of them. I mean, I've been to several unexcavated sites and found T-pillars lying around, broken, scattered around, you know, they're just there. I've been into underground areas at sites as well, which no one knows about, and I'm not allowed to give away locations of them and things like this. I've seen artifacts that the local people have that, you know, they're not in museums. And so it's like that now. There's just, this is not being researched properly. I feel like, I think they've started on it. I think the TazTabula project is really kicking in. I think they're now starting to take it seriously. They're really kind of going for it. They want to push forward with it. And yeah, I think it's going to be really interesting. Every year there's something new comes out. It's just a case of observing and seeing what happens. Göbekli Tepe broke the news, but if I'm not mistaken, Karahan Tepe is much more interesting than... Yeah, the moment is, yeah, because it's just only just been excavated really the last three or four years. And so it's like, and they're really, they're really clearing it away. It's not as deep as Göbekli Tepe, because they don't got as much rubble and mud to get through. But yeah, they found a whole series of enclosures there. I mean, they've got the pillar trail, the structure AB, which has got like this head on the side of it, which is about this big. They've got, it's about six, seven meters wide. They've got these 10 bedrock pillars that look like phalluses and some people say mushrooms. And then there's a serpent in there. There's a hole going through it to the main enclosure, which the light comes through in the winter solstice and illuminates the head and all this kind of stuff. And so that is unique. There's a whole unique area there. And they've just discovered this new enclosure at the top. And this is, this is huge. It's as big as the one down below. It's 70, 70, 75 feet wide. And they found this seven and a half foot human statue in there with, it looks like he's got a shaved head here, like a mullet at the back, sort of Mohican almost. He's got like ribs showing and he looks like he's emaciated. He's holding his part, you know, like they all do. And, and it's incredible. It's seven and a half feet tall. And, uh. Is it limestone? Yeah, I think so. It looks a bit different. It looks a bit darker, actually. They haven't told us anything. It looks a fraction darker than the other type of stone. So it might be basalt. There's a lot, there's a lot of basalt plates that have been found there, which are beautifully carved, which are from Karakadar Mountain, which is the sacred mountain further north, northeast from Gobekli Tepe, where they kind of, I believe they kind of worshipped that as a kind of deity of some sort. And so they were working with different types of stone there as well. There's evidence now at Karahantep where they found not only these plates, they found a few other artifacts, like this green stone they've been using as well, which I think is, um, I've completely forgotten the name of it. It's the same type of stone they're finding at Hattusa, like the cube from Hattusa, the Hittite site. So it's like serpentine or nephrite, maybe. I think it's nephrite. So, yeah, so there's a lot of weird stuff coming out of the ground there, really bizarre symbolism, carvings. Even on the bedrock floor of the new enclosure, they found, it's almost like you get cut marks at these sites. You get these like little kind of circular cut marks all over the sites, Gobekli Tepe, virtually every Tastabula site has them. But in the new enclosure, they've got this weird thing where towards the main shrine, where the statue is, and there's also a vulture statue and this whole stone heading towards the north, they found these almost like scoop marks. They're not round. They're kind of oval shaped. They look like they've been scooped out. Similar to the stonehead scoop marks? These are all the same size. They're about this big. They're like this. And it's like, it's almost like, I think it's made to look like the paw print of a leopard. That's what it looks like. But I don't know, I could be wrong. There's about 10 or 15 of those in this one area. I've spotted those at a couple of other sites, which are older than Gobekli Tepe. In the area, which really surprised me. And there's only two places I've seen them really, or maybe three. And so that's a very much, a very unique thing. There's lots of little unique things coming out of Kerohan Tepe, which are not mentioned in any literature, not mentioned by the archaeologists yet anyway. But we keep spotting them and we're just like, whoa, what the hell is that? You know, so I think Kerohan Tepe is going to be a big deal. You know, I think all the sites there, once people realise what's there, they're going to really shock people. The sites bigger than Kerohan Tepe and Gobekli Tepe that haven't even been excavated yet. I found a T-pillar at one of them. It's a place called El Hoyuk. That's bigger, you know, it's larger, the scale of it is larger than all of them. So that's another potential mega site. And that's just three of 38. So can I ask you what you think about the lithics argument there? The arrowheads and the lithic tools seem so primitive. There's nothing in... I didn't get to go to the museum, so maybe you've seen better tools, but they're so rudimentary. Yeah, there's been a lot of... Luckily, Klaus Schmidt was a lithics expert, and so is Andrew Collins, actually, who I go there regularly with. And Andrew picks them up when he walks around sites. He can work out what type they are, whether they're like Byblos points or Helwaan points or other ones, things like this. And he's very much... He agrees with Klaus Schmidt, because Klaus Schmidt had a good understanding of this. So did Bahatin Selik, who was the early archaeologist before everyone else back in the 90s. He was doing stuff. And they were able to date the sites before any carbon date was done, just by the lithics found there. And every single time so far, they've got it right. He got it right. Yeah. Whether it's pre-pottery Neolithic A, which is early 9,600 BC, for a few hundred years, or pre-pottery Neolithic B, or later, or Paleolithic. He could easily... So the lithics are really important. They might seem primitive, but there was a style and a system apparently in place. I'm no expert on this at all. This is Andrew, and Klaus Schmidt are very good at this. And every single time, it seems to come up correct. They were very close to it when they carbon dated it. But saying that, you talk about Gobekli Tepe maybe being older. Yes. They haven't necessarily found lithics that are still underground there as well, because they may be buried with the site. There could be older lithics. There could be, but my thought is... What seems like a possibility to me is that the lithics aren't necessarily associated with the megalithic architecture or the rock cut parts. That these people who are making these lithics are not the people who are cutting bedrock and carving megaliths, because they were already established as a known culture, the pre-pottery Neolithic A and B, and so many sites that they had so many carbon dates that they were very well established at the date of time that they existed, but there was never any T-pillars or any rock cut, anything at those sites until Klaus Schmidt uncovered Gobekli Tepe and associated those because of the lithics. It's like this culture that created these lithics, which are very rudimentary, were married with this megalithic culture because they were at the bottom of the enclosures. I'm wondering, did these people occupy those sites, the people that made those lithics, come and find these sites already there and try to reconstruct them? That's why their lithics are so rudimentary. They don't look sophisticated. Yeah, and I hear what you're saying. I mean, there are some really beautiful ones as well, mind you. I think they're beautiful. Yeah, they're very beautiful. They're just not as sophisticated. But that's what they were doing then. This is how they were. I mean, that's how they carved the stones. They used different types of lithics and they used obsidian for the final work. So you think that it is possible that the people that carved all this stuff were constantly making these rudimentary tools and nothing more complicated? I'm sure there were ones that got broken on top of that. But no, I agree partly with what you're saying. You couldn't be making a good point. They found Paleolithic lithics at a site called Hamzan Tepe, for instance, and they found pre-Pottery Neolithic lithics there as well, and some T-pillars. So what's the Paleolithic stuff doing there? You know what I mean? You can't be associated with T-pillars. Yeah, so that's a bit confusing because some of them are still on the surface now. But there's a gentleman called Will Lord who did some experiments with the different tools and was able to carve very close to the quality of the Tepe T-pillars. Not necessarily creating a massive amount of it, but he was able to get the 3D relief carving down. I don't think there's any doubt that you can carve that limestone with plant, but you'd go through a lot of stunt doing it. But yeah, and also, like you say, you've got the bedrock, because this was just bedrock. So stuff just gets washed away with the rain, on first rain. So they cleared down to the bedrock first, so all the material, the soil, and then they cut the bedrock out and flattened it. I mean, that's the argument you were making in your documentary, which I think is valid and it's ignored by everyone pretty much, apart from me, and a few other people. But generally it is. People don't talk about this because they assume the walls were there at the very beginning, and they just weren't clear. I mean, it's quite obvious when you look closely and you see the carvings on the pillars, and they were covered up with really bad walls. You can see where the rock walls were built up to a point and a gap was left, and a pillar is there, and then the gap is filled in. So there's two marks on either side of the pillar that are vertical, a weak point in the rock wall, so it's the rock wall is. So in your documentary you prove, basically, that it was not deliberately buried. I don't know that we prove it. I think that was a very likely possibility it was not deliberately buried. That was a target or the goal, too. And what do you think? Yeah, I think it's a good argument for both, because you've got their documentary, you've got Lee Clare, he's the current archaeologist, he's done more research, he's found a slope slide, evidence of a slope slide coming in from the midden and everything that gets built up, and this works for those particular enclosures only. It's the only place that makes sense on, you know, because you go to other sites and they've definitely been deliberately buried, like Harahan Tepe, for instance, has been proven beyond doubt, there's been a scientific paper on that, that's been published. And there are some layers in Quebec Lee Tepe which look like they're placed, because they repaired everything, you know, they repaired stuff, they put things back together, they did bodge jobs on some of them, they put like a bunch of stones like this underneath and then half a T-pillar on top, but then it was covered over. So they did this repair job on it, which I find, I think you talk about this in your documentary. So there's like, you know, that is, because if you've got a slope slide coming in, that's going to knock shit, that's going to knock stuff over, you know, it's going to just damage things. There's very little damage on some of these main pillars there, it's like they're almost pristine. And so it looks like everything was carefully packed around them, in my opinion. So I believe there was the slope slide, I think, you know, he's proven that. But also I think that there's deliberate burial as well, especially finishing up, finishing up the site when you're moving on. You're right, at Terra and Tepe, there's not really a whole lot of midden, no, to bury like that chamber you were talking about with the, you know, the rock cut chamber. There's a lot of bare rock now. I didn't see it before it was ever excavated. You had no idea what was under it. But it wasn't like there were 30 foot piles of midden. No, no, there's nothing there. I mean, that's the issue with, I mean, there's parts of Gobekli Tepe where I get a feeling there's a tradition of burying sites as well. It goes way back, there's a tradition of burying sites in the Levant, like Latufians did it, other cultures did it, even before Gobekli Tepe. So there's a tradition, a lineage of that, that they would close down places. It appears that Gobekli Tepe, they repaired it and then finished covering it over, maybe after it had fallen in a few times and they decided to finish it off and leave. Whereas Terra and Tepe, they deliberately damaged and decommissioned the site and then buried it. And you can see that, there's no slope slides there. It was like deliberately broken, pushed over. Statues were broken in three places and things like this, the same point on each statue, knocked over. Can it be the next culture who came and occupied the place? Mechanicalism. It could be, yeah. But also you get these, you know, the stone plates, they were all found perfectly placed, broken. Some of them actually not broken, but some broken on the benches in between the teapillars. But specifically placed in positions, you know, as well. Yeah, it makes me, you know, it reminds me of like the breaking of the Ten Commandments. So there's this, the connection with the changing of the age. So this idea that you're in one age for a while and that's like the constellation and its symbol that rules for that period, that's the god of the period. And then when that period is over, all of its idols are destroyed, all of its temples collapsed and buried, and then they build a new one for the new age. God, that's a super hook. So Solaine and Daedalus, they're coming down off of the mountain with the tablets and the whole thing was he gets down there, Moses gets down there, and they're worshipping the golden calf, which was the previous age. He is trying to move him into the age of the ram and they're still worshipping Taurus. Yeah, and he's just like, dammit, that makes so much sense. Like, that would be cool if that's what was going on. It feels a bit like that, doesn't it? If you think about it, because a lot of the symbolism as well. So like they put the tablets there, like you were saying, and they smash them and they destroy the symbolism on the pillars and then they bury the place. It could be. I mean, it feels like that. I mean, because, I mean, clearly it's been broken, Carahan's temple. Not all of it, but some. But, you know, they've been broken. You know, things have been broken and then deliberately buried. But the one thing they didn't break was the pillar showing the structure AB, all the upright and the head sticking out, and the whole stone. They were all perfectly in good condition. And then they were carefully covered over, definitely. And that interests me because they wanted to preserve something. You know, this is our, mine and JJ's opinion, and we're not saying we're correct, it's the hypothesis, that they wanted to make sure that the winter solstice alignment could be viewed even in the future, if it ever got uncovered. They wanted to preserve that to say, hey, this is what we were doing here. You know, and you know, we don't need an artifact to prove what we were doing or a writing. You can do it through the astronomy, which isn't going to change that much in 10,000 years. Like in Egypt, the Coptics were keeping the temples, but removing the Egyptian god heads. Erasing their faces and all that. Yeah, but I find it, yeah, I mean that intrigues me, that that particular area was definitely not damaged. It was kept as it was. And then it was covered over real carefully, different layers of soil, stone, pebbles, and then giant flagstones on top to like protect the top. So even water barely could get in it either. It was pretty well preserved. I heard that some parts, maybe even Karahan or Gobekli, was like a big water reservoir. With huge pillars reflecting the water, like a reflective pond or something. That's one of the theories, yeah. Andrew Collins has been going on about that recently, actually. Because they carefully leveled the floors, and they pointed out in the documentary that the Snape brothers did, that you can see in the enclosures of Gobekli Tepe, for instance, there's like a curb around the edge, and then the floor's a bit below it. And then you have inside, and then you have the pedestals in the middle, where the big pillars are placed in. And they're raised up above floor level, as is the curb around the edge. And this is all bedrock, so water would stay in it really neatly, just a few inches of it. And so you'd have reflections like that of the sky, of the pillars, whatever's going on. And there's a lot of these enclosures have terrazzo floor, which is like this lime water cement, which they made. It's all over the site, it's all over. They found a whole load of it this year at Karahan Tepe, a whole enclosure. There's a whole bunch of stuff at many of the other sites. And terrazzo is like, originally they thought it was a Roman invention, and then suddenly they're finding it in pre-pottery Neolithic Turkey. And that's waterproof, but that's waterproof, that's designed to be waterproof. So when they were making artificial floors, it was waterproofing it. So, and they were also covering some pillars and walls in it as well. So it could have been partly designed and used for that purpose. The terrazzo floor, how do you say it? I think it's terrazzo or terrazzo, terrazzo or terrazzo. I find that fascinating. And it's really strange to me that you can find this, a culture that was making terrazzo floor, which is basically cement. They're making cement and stone tiles that doesn't have pottery. They have mortar and no pottery. Like they can't make a bowl out of that stuff. I think they wouldn't figure out. They did a lot with stone. They were making bowls and plates out of stone. I know, but it's... They were good at it as well. Yeah. Maybe because they made their pottery out of terrazzo or terrazzo, that it's not clear in the sediments. We're not finding it as pottery shards, but as like broken bits of mortar. I think they found a few bits of... And it's waterproof. It's just so strange to me. How can you not have pottery made from that stuff? Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean, yeah. I mean, it took a couple of thousand years for that to come in, really. Took a while. I feel like there's something missing. Yeah. Big. In the story, I feel like there's a gap. I feel like that the cultures they're attributing it to may not actually be the original cultures. When I look at these different technologies that they've developed, the side-by-side technologies don't really make sense to me. So I don't know. I mean, that's just my feeling. No, yeah. I hear you. I mean, it seems like there's a super advanced element there. And then there's a kind of quite simplistic element, as you mentioned. And like no connection between the implications of one technology that would easily lead to another. You imagine, right? You kind of imagine like you're the... Like say you're the first builders. You're going in there. You're the first people doing it. You come up with the idea. You're going in there. You're carving the shapes of the enclosures. Out of bedrock, you're making the pedestals. You're getting the pillars, carving them, placing them. And I believe they were slotting the pillars into the bedrock curbs, personally. And then they may have used terrazzo to kind of pack it and hold it up and things like this. Because at Carrera Antepa, you see that example, is where they're slotting it into curbs and steps to hold the pillars in place. And even terrazzo as well, they found terrazzo. They're using that to hold pillars upright. So there would have been no walls. It would have been virtually bedrock, you know, maybe a bit of terrazzo here and there. And that's it. So there was no rubble. There was no dirt. It was just bedrock. So stuff would wash away constantly. You're talking about points and things like this. And so you've got this kind of almost like pristine kind of thing. But you imagine, though, within a generation, one lifetime, maybe two lifetimes, the original builders are dead. Their families may have moved on. Other people were going to be coming up to this place everyone's talking about, you know, this special place. You know, just imagine seeing that for the first time when you're a hunter-gatherer. You'll be hunting, going around the wilderness. Suddenly you're seeing Gobekli Tepe. You're like, what the hell? You think you, you know... It's the place of the gods. Yeah. It's like 2001 Space Odyssey kind of vibe. You know what I mean? You don't need any mushrooms for that either. It's like, you know, this is... It would blow your mind. It would change your perception of everything. So they're like, well, who the hell did this? What do we do with this? Oh, let's make sure they stay upright. Let's build a wall between it. Let's do that. And that could have happened within 50 years if it had been built. That's what people don't realize. It could happen really quickly. That's why the walls appear to be there at the beginning. Yes. It could happen within 100 years. It could be 50. It could be 20. Who knows? That's really where I'm... They're short lifespans, these people. They're 40 years old, max. They've only found like four skeletons. They're all young people. There's no one over 40. I think that's a really good point, that you could have had a generation or a couple of generations of people that were amazing builders and they sprang up and then vanished. And then you have the first people that come along, you know, like a lot of these tribes or people that sort of their culture develops in an isolated area. They call themselves the people. Basically, they don't know that there are others and then they're wandering around thinking they're the first people and they come upon this place that's half buried. Yeah. And these giant megaliths with all this symbolism sticking out of the ground and they're like... And then they duplicate that. And they dig them up. They dig them up and then they build walls to hold the stuff that they dug out back. And then their lithics are at the very bottom. That's the way I see it, something like that. And it could have been within a couple of hundred years. That's the weird thing because we take it, you know, because these sites were in use for 2,000 years nearly. It's like, it's hard to imagine loads of stuff could happen within the first 50 years. Things could have changed dramatically, you know, you just don't know. We haven't got a clue. And so I find that's intriguing to be thinking about that because like, you know, they could have been an inspired group and they might have gone there and just built it and created something outrageously amazing. And you can do it. It could be a relatively small group, you know, it's a massive culture. And then they could have gone to other places, inspired people in other parts of the landscape and gone, you know, and that's it. And then everyone else is just duplicating what they see because they don't know what else to do. This is, nothing else is more amazing than what we were just seeing. So we'll copy that over here. But it may not be like that at all. It's just pure speculation, you know. Maybe. One more thing I would say about the burial is that what struck me was that for miles and miles when you're riding through this landscape, it's almost no soil. It's just exposed bedrock on these hills and the only soil is in these valleys far below. And it's, as soon as we got to go back to Tepe, you just see it's this massive midden pile. All that material was brought there by people. That material is not naturally there. So in one respect, you can say that it was buried because people brought all that material. But to think that it was, that they only brought the material there to bury it. Yeah. That that was the intention that they're just like bringing this soil, because you don't just get the soil right there and throw it in. You have to bring it from far away. And so to me, it looks like it looks like long periods of midden build up and collapse and build up and collapse or just flowing into the enclosures from the people living around and within. It's just hard to imagine. And I'm not saying that, because I know that there are levels where there's definitely tiling, like you were saying, like big flagstones all laid out. But again, like you were saying, that could be a 50 year period where they put flagstones everywhere, like a flagstone floor. I don't know. I don't know enough about it. And I haven't studied Karahan as much as Gobekli Tepe, but it just seems like unimaginable that they would just bring all this material from so far away to just bury this place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's not just soil, it's midden. It's buried in. So it's all occupation layers. And we're building stuff constantly when they're around it. I think the collapse thing is correct in some respects. I think you're right. I think Lee Clare's right now. It's kind of dawned on me that that must be what it is. But there's also the deliberate burial of other sites, other areas. Yeah, I need to look into that. That's really interesting. And it is. So there is a mix of it, I think. But this is a huge effort to bury such a huge place. More so than building it. You know, when it comes weight for weight, you know, what you're dealing with. Why just not leaving it there? It was a conspiracy. Yeah, no, but every single site is buried. There's not one of the sites which is on the surface. It's just very tops of T-pillars sticking up. So that's odd. When you say Birch was buried, we know that, definitely. When you go to the sites now, you can see, I've noticed, I think most people see this, but you can tell when part of it's been buried because there's not just mud there. There's all these rocks about this size, thousands of them mixed with the mud. It's like it's been buried with lumps this size. And you can see whole areas. There's whole parts of Quebec-Louis-Therapy, there's whole parts of Carribean-Therapy like that. Now I've seen them with Say Birch and other sites. You can tell that's deliberately, you can see that that's been covered over in a certain way, you know. And so, yeah, there's a lot of that still there. Some entire sites are still like that. Like A.L. La Hoya, for instance. That's a massive site. There's like seven main areas, or six or seven main areas at A.L. La Hoya, but all of them are mouths with that stuff, that bits of stone with the mud mixed. So, yeah. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I want to bury something, that means that I don't want it. So I don't want anyone else to use it. That's why I'm burying it. Otherwise, I'm just leaving it there and walk away and move on. Yeah, but I don't know. I think it's just the way they, different mindset. I think it's a very different mindset. These traditional burying of sites is a tradition that goes back. That's just what they did. They just did what they knew to do. And I think that was it, you know, even before Gobekli Tepe. Because they were doing it at Latufian sites and things like that. These connections, these were always fascinating to me, that the hands on the T-pillars are all connected to the Easter Island statues, the Moai hands. And also today we have seen in this book, he told me that a Serbian, or this statue was found in Serbia. Yeah. Also having the same feature, quite similar feature. Yeah, and that's the same era as Gobekli Tepe, the Serbian stuff, the Lepensky Var, I think. JJ studies that, and she's been out there actually recently. And yeah, there's sites there, that age, similar symbolism. There's clear influence between the two areas. Do you have an idea why? Is it that similar, or these people are somehow connected? It's the myth, well, according to JJ, it's the mythology and the symbolism is prevalent. And some of these myths and stories go back literally hundreds of thousands of years. And they repeat themselves, and they spread around the world. There's many different ones, and there's several that are turned up at Gobekli Tepe, which are in Lepensky Var. They've actually continued into Sumerian and Hittite cultures and things like this. We've got a guy actually speaking at Origins Conference called John White, who does the Crecganford Channel, and he is awesome. He studies myths going back hundreds of thousands of years, and the origins of them, and how they spread in a scholarly manner. And some of the stuff he's coming up with is incredible. And like, I mean, they're literally like going back some half a million years. Myths get repeated throughout cultures and end up at sites, then they're finally recorded in stone, and that's how they get recognized. So there are things like that, you know, the twin gods, the twins. You've got like the kind of androgynous gods as well. And the fertility, like the fertility connection to all of it, and they're almost like... Yeah, the navel, touching the navel. And then the potbelly hill, and the navel of the world, and all that stuff goes, it's everywhere. Obviously, we've seen the hole in that phallus as well. Have you looked at the rock cut chamber with all the pillars that you were discussing with the little serpent? Have you looked at it from above shot? I mean, it looks like, you know, like a tadpole or a sperm or something like that. It's like this carving of it. Some people have said that to me. I mean, JJ has got some ideas, but Andrew thinks it's a serpent of an Anatolian viper. It's a representation of a snake, but there's so much. You mentioned the fertility stuff. There's something me and JJ have looked into a lot. I've written about it, actually. And there's clear, like even the winter solstice alignment is a fertility kind of symbol because you've got the kind of male shard of light going through the feminine porthole stone. Again, like Newgrange, similar thing going into the kind of womb-like chamber where there's phalluses, there's serpents, which are related to fertility. There's probably water in there as well. And again, you've got the possible, it looks like a sperm. You know, it's like all these things playing out in the carvings and the symbolism. So yeah, there's definitely something about that. I mean, and there's traditions. But it can't be a sperm because they could never have possibly known. Yeah, there is that. That's what's so weird about it to me. It's like all this fertility stuff and you're like, that's what it looks like. Yeah, no, no, for sure. How do they know that? And some of the, you can start looking into the Sumerian myths as well. And some of them seem to almost, there's lots of fertility myths in Sumerian lore. And they go back and it looks like they may be describing what is at Karahantepe, some of them, it's really weird. You know, you have some of the gods like Enlil, Enki, you get the, who were, you know, who would feed the land through their abundance and male sexual prowess. Through their phallus, they spread the seed across the land. They were described as serpents. They, you know, so all this symbolism's there. You've got all the phalluses there as well. There's also the Shiva Lingam idea as well that our good friend Charles Koss pointed out to us is that pillar shrine or structure AB is like, it's just like a Shiva Lingam in a more primitive, unusual form. Where you've got the phalluses, you've got the kind of channels going in and out for the liquids. And a pool where water could be. Then you've got the kind of different elements at the site that kind of back that up as well. So there's things like that as well. You just, you know, is that the origins of where that came from? Interesting. That's really cool. I need to dig into that site some more. I really, I'm looking forward to going back there and I'm hoping that they, you know, continue excavations there because that place is fascinating. Yeah. I mean, Karaitepe is like, thankfully they're cracking into it. Yeah. That's awesome to hear. They're not messing about. Yeah. There's no conspiracy there yet. Well, although, you know, my book's been banned already, but that's a whole other story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And there's an interesting hill right across from there too. If you go right down the valley and right up the next hill. Yeah. That's Kechitepe. That place is really... Yeah. We've been up there a few times. Caves and all that stuff in there. It's got caves there. It's got a rock cut temple, like a square. Perfectly East, North, South, West temple. And there's like a just perfectly round hole cut right into the bedrock and then it opens into like a bell shaped and it's just full of rubble. Yeah. It hasn't been excavated. It's... They don't let you up there anymore, unfortunately. Oh, really? No, we got to hike up there. It was great. Good. I'm glad you did because they're really annoying. They won't let you go up there. I mean, we've been going up there for years and then suddenly, no, you can't go up there anymore. And, but yeah, there's also, if you go in the caves up there, there's several quite large rock cut caves. It's, according to Andrew, it's aligned from Karahantepe with the Cygnus thing going on, the setting of Cygnus or Deneb. And yeah, the name of that Kechitepe is what they call it, is the original name of Karahantepe because Karahantepe was never called Karahantepe until 1997. That name was given by Bahattin Selik, the archaeologist. The main reason being is they wanted to confuse the name so looters couldn't go there. And Karahan comes from two other names. One of them is Karahasar nearby and there's another place as well, which has got Han in the title. And Kechli, the K-E-C, is a root word, is in Turkish, it means basically, it's got a feminine root. So it's like, it can mean queen, daughter, maiden, even goddess, you know, wife, things like this. So the name of that has a feminine connotation to it, much like I believe Kebekli Tepe has because it's talking about the belly, the swollen belly, which means pregnancy, yeah. And so there's a similar kind of idea behind it. And you can kind of, when you think about the grand scheme of things, like we have to procreate, we have to make more people, we have to continue the bloodline, the culture, the species. And it's like, yeah, you know, when you boil it all down, that's pretty much the most important thing. If that doesn't happen or if that fails in some way, then everything fails. So it makes sense. You know, it's kind of weird when you see these statues and there's so much focus. I mean, we saw it all over Egypt, the focus on the phallus and all the mythology about the phallus of Osiris and then, you know, his, Isis, like putting him back together so that they can have a son and all that. There's just, it's so much focus on this and it's kind of like, well, we sort of take it for granted. We don't have the infant mortality rates that the vast majority of human history, you don't know, you know, like if it's even going to work and if the mother and the child are going to die or if the child is going to live past five years. So I can understand how that can become a main focus of sort of a religious practice and a religious, you know, culture that all people might develop over time, especially after going through hardships and famines and plagues and whatever. But it's still, I don't know. It's fascinating. So one of the things I found at Gobekli Tepe definitely is Alexander Tom type geometries that you find in stone circles in Britain, in Gobekli Tepe. One of these is an egg-shaped circle and this is a specific one. You find an enclosure D, which is also what you find at Nabta Playa in Egypt, which dates back to around 6,000 BC, allegedly. And this is the same geometry exactly and it's astronomically oriented as well. As we find at Gobekli Tepe. So this is a very specific construction technique of design. But we also find it later in the British stone circles as well. And so what is going on there? Why are we finding these odd connections? We even find that with the measurements, the types of measurements, the foot, the different lengths of foot, the megalithic yard even, we find all them at Gobekli Tepe and Karahan Tepe. And so they had a deep understanding, not just of construction techniques and stone working skills and fertility and la-di-da, they really had this innovative understanding of sacred space. And also they must have had an understanding of the measure of the earth as well, because most of the measurements they use are based on measurements of the earth. And so this is why I believe we're finding examples like at Stonehenge, where they would probably an outpost from the area in Turkey to mark different places around the planet when they decided they needed to go and measure the earth. Because you get the same measurements at Stonehenge as you do as well as the geometry that you do at Gobekli Tepe. So it gets really bizarre when you start looking into that side. That's one of the things I'm going to be focusing on in the next book. That's interesting. And this is the only connection you can find between Egypt and Gobekli Tepe or Egypt and Stonehenge or stone circles in England? Well, there's one that Klaus Schmidt and Andrew Collins go on about. There's a point like a blade or micro blade that's called the Helwam Point. Helwam is from Egypt. And this dates back to 10,000 or so years ago, 11,000, I think, from Egypt, from not too far from Saqqara. There's a place called Helwam, which was an ancient area with lots of burials and other things have been found. Exactly the same one at near Gobekli Tepe in Urfa or Shadal Urfa. And also a few other sites now they found it. And so there's a direct connection at the same timeframe between a very interesting part of Egypt and Southeast Turkey. And it's not found in England? No, no. This is very specifically that region, yeah. Wow, 11,000 or 11,000 years old? Pre-Pottery Neolithic, early Pre-Pottery Neolithic. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I mean, they found all sorts of stuff linking through the Levant. They found like the Byblos points and various other ones at all these areas as well. But you must remember that some of the sites in the Levant, even in Egypt, are as old as Gobekli Tepe. They're older in some cases. You know, you get older sites in Israel and even Lebanon and Jordan. You know, they're going back to 14, over 14,000 years ago. Yes. We have to wrap it up, unfortunately. But maybe next time, if you have time, and we can have another conversation. Because I have so many questions but we cannot just squeeze it into this small... I don't know how... What's the time? Yeah, it's getting late. So where can my audience find you? Yeah, just Hugh Newman, they can Google me. Or there's Megalithomania.co.uk. They can check out the little book. I haven't got one with me, but the little book on Gobekli Tepe. You're also leading tours, right? Yeah, we lead tours out there. Twice a year, yeah, for sure. I mean, we have to keep going back because the stuff keeps getting discovered. So it's a personal quest as well as a guided tour. But you're mainly focusing on Turkey now? Yeah, but we do other areas, other tours. But that's our real passion. You have some great videos walking around on the site and just showing the landscape and just all the different mounds, just free roaming out there. That was one of the big inspirations for me. I was like, man, this is not what I thought it was. Like when you, the normal pictures you get of the site and the narrative, like you had some great footage out there. Yeah, no, for sure. It's just like, as you know, as soon as you get out there, you start seeing it in your own eyes. You're like, oh, this is like a vast, almost like a wilderness. Like being on Mars, it's like so strange, especially Karaitepe. I mean, that's like middle of nowhere. That's awesome. I mean, there's no water source for miles. It's just bizarre. And they thrive down there, but it was more lush back then, apparently. So yeah, for sure. So getting out there is one of the, this is the time of discovery. It's happening now. This is like going back a few hundred years into Egypt or the jungles of Guatemala or Peru, when they were going out there and making the discoveries. That is happening in Southeast Turkey now. And it will be for the next 20 years because there's so much to uncover. And it's happening since the 60s. Well, it just got noticed in the 60s. Excavation only began in the late 1990s, mid to late 1990s, so it's not been going on that long. Kyle, where they can find you? Brothersoftheserpen.com and on Twitter at Snake Bros, well, S-N-K-B-R-S. And thanks for showing us around today, buddy. Yeah, my pleasure. It was so great. Stonehenge, too, was amazing. Thank you. All right. Good one. Cheers. We should really down they, shouldn't we, for the end of the video. That went down well, actually, that last bit. A massive thank you to my incredible supporters, Oniku, Anton Hanzalik, Johannes Meyer, Uncle Chucky, Sarah Cox and Vasana. Your generosity fuels this journey into ancient technology, keeping this show alive and pushing my research further than ever. As the ancient Egyptians would say, Ankwe Jaseneb.