《酒聞》第十杯酒上：自然酒鼻祖菜刀酒莊光環背後的哲學理念與現實思考

hello 大家好 我是呂洋 歡迎來到我們又一期的節目 那很多的世界名莊到了中國以後 我們中國的葡萄酒愛好者 會給他們一些很好玩的暱稱 那我覺得這裡面最有意思的名字之一 就是大名鼎鼎的菜刀酒莊 啊他的原名叫perry rock 呃那說到菜刀酒莊的話他有很多標籤 呃他比如說他跟康爹的關係啊 有人說他是自然酒的鼻祖或者領軍者呀 呃所以正因為他有很多的標籤 可能很多愛好者對他有一些誤解 或者不是最正確的信息 那今天的話 呃我請到了我的一個好朋友 叫janik 他就是菜刀酒莊的總經理和莊主 以前也是釀酒師 呃我在13年的時候在菜刀酒莊 跟他有一次長達將近三個小時的品鑒 對我來說是非常引人深入 也改變了我對葡萄酒的很多的看法 啊所以跟他一直有很多的交往 但也現在有四年沒見他了 覺得很開心 janik 在 四年以後又來到了中國 我們跟他聊聊菜刀酒莊 聊聊他的近況 聊聊大家對菜刀酒莊一些看法和認知 然後我們走吧 good morning janik good wonderful to see you again yes how are you fine just arrived just arrived okay it'll be a long time two years okay yes so very nice morning let's have some good wines and good talk yeah tell us about the story of Pierrot Rock uh the Pierrot Rock was created in 1988 uh on eiffel tower and uh we start with around three hectares especially in Bonne Romanee okay and today we have 22 hectares and what was uh henry's vision when he found Pierrot Rock in 88 you know what what he tried to achieve and do you think this vision has been maintained through your so the idea was to produce the purest expression of Pierrot Rock with natural way okay so it means no sulfate it means uh no chaptalization no acidification only the natural yeast and to produce with only all clusters so with the stem that's uh the signature of the demand today because we produce 100% of the wine with the stem whole cluster whole cluster yeah every single vintage and every single vineyard okay produce like this okay it start like this in 1988 and it's still the same philosophy the stem the same way to produce today okay so since we touch the topic of natural wine already so what's your view and take on this very strong natural wine movement over the last 25 years and what's the natural wine means to you i drink natural wine since maybe 25 years i think it's a good way it's a good point that more and more winemaker in different region in France and probably in the world yes come to this uh viticulture and this winemaking but um it's only a good thing is the wine is good at the end no volatile no problem oxidation vitalizes yes so so it's good okay and many people regard Pierrot as a leading domain of the natural wine movement do you feel it's a compliment for you or leader i don't know exactly what it means uh we are one of the first and uh uh pierrot has a very interesting name in china among the wine lovers do you know it yes of course it's being called the Cai Dao right yes but uh uh what's the real meaning behind this label so before create the domain and we put a record spend around three years in Egypt so when he came back in France and create the domain he was looking for something to remember his life in Egypt okay so we do not create the logo it looks very modern on the bottle especially for a burgundy label but uh it's uh more than 4000 years old symbol and it means viticulture okay so the knife is not a knife it's uh the vegetable life it means vegetable life okay not the vineyard but in general um hum then the yellow is god the same as god but below is the human people okay and the three point because there are three different size and different forms it's not three perfect circle so that the grapes to make the wine and not the grapes to eat okay so all of this is the culture of the grapes to make wine with the knowledge of people and with it depends that you think that you need chance and you need god very funny because 4000 years ago um hum the Egyptian already understand that the grapes you need to produce the best wine is not big bunch okay that is what we call today the Miron so in a way human being did not become clever along the way we just have more knowledge yeah but our ancestors probably more smarter than we do yeah but now um it's important to know that you need a strong knowledge um hum to make natural wine it's not easy so I think we increase our knowledge year after year I hope I think the wine we produce today are better than the wine we produce in the beginning that is for sure and what's the meaning of the domain's name Perry Rock is there any history or story behind this name yes because Henry don't want to have domain Henry Frederick Rock um hum okay too simple so we bought a building in Nuit Saint George you know the place we had the bistro yes so it was the priory of Nuit Saint George few century ago okay so the priory is like um church kind of church um hum so that's why we choose priory rock so it's very simple what does Biodynamic mean to you Biodynamic is very important for me we are certified in organic way okay since 30 years um hum and probably in the next few years we will be also certified in Biodynamic but it's important to precise the grapes um hum to precise the quality of the vine um hum and to precise the quality of the grapes we always say that the wine is made in the vineyard not in the cellar um hum so we need to produce the best quality of the grapes as possible um hum and Biodynamic organic way is one very important point one very important way in the quality um of the production we expect which vineyard among all the holdings um more they are all your children all your kids right but which is more symbolic to to pair rock in general I think the monopole are the most important thing um hum because it means we are the only domain to produce the appellation hole cluster 100% of hole cluster fermentation as you mentioned since the beginning since the 88 is getting in trend now many winery and domain are trying it um but the only few can succeed so what's the secret of doing 100% hole cluster with the stem inclusion the secret is the yield ok definitely the more you produce the less the stem could be ripe true so you cannot use it if it's not ripe um hum so if you want to produce every year 100% hole cluster um hum you need to be sure to be ripe so you need to produce every year and what's the influence does the hole cluster have on the wines in the wine we taste it is the perfume is the texture is the freshness or yes especially probably in the very semi vintage we had the last few years um hum 1920 that's the reason why main of the domain start to produce now with a part 20,30,50% hole cluster um hum because it gives some freshness some minerality um hum so yes it's very important but you know at the beginning the idea is not to say we produce 100% with the stem the idea was to produce without sulfate ok so if you want to produce without sulfate you need to protect the juice um hum the oxidation um hum so if you have hole cluster the juice cannot go outside so that's the idea ok so that's the most fundamental way of doing this yes ok and are you big fan of skin contact white wines big fan is probably not the right thing but I love you love it ok yes I love to drink it um hum I love to produce it because it was funny in 2011 to produce it ok because we were probably the first domain to produce it but now so many domain regularly produce um hum skin contact um hum so it's less funny less funny ha ha ha but what do you like it is because of the more more structure in the white wine or more chewy or no to be honest um hum the vineyard we have in this appellation we had problem with the natural yeast ok because they are not strong so we had some problem quite often or the fermentation skin contact was a technical solution to finish the fermentation um hum I never decide to produce the skin contact to say we have skin contact ha ha ha but to answer um hum the problem of fermentation ok so we try yes we try in 2011 and the result was fantastic technically ok then after I taste it ok it's good um hum so we start to produce so it's very interesting talking with you being a leader in natural wine it's it's not only about the philosophy and ideology everything you do for example in 2011 that we skin contact at the beginning to do whole bunch because of protect oxidation there's a fundamental logic behind it it's not just for doing for the sake of being natural right so I think that's a that's a very important message to the to the wine lovers yeah that's the reason I try to explain previously um hum it's not easy to produce natural wine um hum and it's not a simple decision you can take um hum you need to think about all the small details it's not easy to start ok yes yeah and yeah it's it's about all the detail the good things is summarization of all the details that's how you make good things of course yeah and there's a newest addition to the domain is what we have here yes Jervis Chambartin Premier Cru Yes What's the first vintage Twelve Two thousand twenty So this is exactly Bordeaux Yeah and What factor did you consider when you start to try to purchase this Vineyard which is quite actually famous as well yeah Two different things um hum First it's a monopole so each time you can um talk to me about a monopole is maybe available you get excited yes haha 另外一個重點是這間酒店的位置 你知道嗎? 這間酒店在喀布勒湖的喀布勒湖 我們就在喀布勒湖附近 所以這部分非常有趣 特別是現在 這是喀布勒湖的冷泉 所以現在我們有很熱很溫暖的氣溫 我們現在有這個 這是非常重要的 要有新的位置 好的 更冷的位置 給酒店 還有什麼是塗鴉? 我看到很多店鋪都在做這個 這對消費者有什麼作用? 對消費者有什麼訊息? 是純粹看起來好看 還是有真正的效果? 我們以前用的塗鴉 是的 它是一個塑膠殼 因為我們想減少氧氣 氧氣侵蝕 是的 所以我們決定停止 塗鴉也在這裡 來減少氧氣和酒的互動 我們來聊聊這瓶酒 你也知道這瓶酒的優點 2020年也有很好的優點 是的 總是難以談論 你製造的酒 你可以和所有不同的酒廠談論 更容易談論別的酒 既然你不想談論 讓我來談論 這不是我的問題 你是專業的 相比其他瓶酒 它有更深的果香 也有更辣的果香 不像其他瓶酒 它有更多的辣味 相比其他瓶酒 對我來說 它的果香比羅馬尼的更少 但它仍然有一點果香 比羅馬尼的果香更少 它比紅蘿蔔 更深的果香 對我來說更加深 我來問你一個問題 因為有些人認為 這瓶酒有葡萄酒的味道 但這種味道很容易被人認出 因為它的顏色和味道 你認為 因為這是第一瓶復古酒 你認為它是葡萄酒 還是沒有 當然我看到標籤 它有一定的葡萄酒味 讓我來解釋一下 它在口腔中有一定的緊張 是的 它是新鮮的 它不是一個脂肪的酒 每次我喝葡萄酒 新鮮是一件事 你會感覺到很清新的質感 即使你喝了所有的果 所有的花香 很香 但當你喝的時候 它就像這種 帶回所有東西 我認為這就是葡萄酒的標誌 但老實說 也許以後我們不會展示它 它沒有葡萄酒的清晰度 所以它在未來幾年會更精準 我已經看到了2023年的分別 這是第四代 有任何方法讓消費者認出 它是真正的葡萄酒 還是假葡萄酒 很簡單 直接購買 好的 或是發售 不是 第二代市場 不是第二代市場 因為你不會知道 它是假葡萄酒還是真葡萄酒 但也很重要 你會知道存儲的狀況 所以唯一的方法很簡單 直接購買 是的 從正式的出售商 正式的出售商 這是唯一的方法 去餐廳 找出正式出售商的葡萄酒 是的 好的