Increasing Women's Power in Entertainment and Media

It takes women to help women move ahead. Like, look at the work that Tulane's company has done, and I would love for it to get to a point that everybody sees the value in helping half of our society move forward. For Women's History Month, I really wanted to be here to talk about women's power in the entertainment and media industry. I'm so glad we could all gather today, and I thought I'd start by having each of you introduce yourselves. So, Carolina, can you start? Yes. My name is Carolina Groppa. Thank you so much for having me. I'm an Emmy-nominated film producer, and I also host a podcast called Angle on Producers, which is creating pathways for other producers in the industry. I'm really passionate about it. Hi, I'm Amy Aniovi. I'm a writer, director, producer in both film and TV, and I founded the production company in Talent Incubator, Super Special. I'm Tulane Jones. I'm president of Array, an arts and advocacy collective founded by director Ava DuVernay. What brought you to this topic of diversity and inclusion? Was there a moment in time that made you decide, okay, I really want to be involved in this? It's inherent with who I am. I grew up in a predominantly white town as a kid, and my family is very Nigerian, and so I always felt like an outsider. So much of my journey has been like, oh, wait, take up your space, be okay with who you are. And when I got to spaces where I did finally feel more like myself, I realized, now it's my job to empower others. Now it's my job to be the bridge to future storytellers and help other people who look like me or who come from my background find their space as well. I agree with Amy. I think it was just inherent in who I am as a human being. I'm of mixed culture, and so I grew up in the South. That always kind of has you questioning where you belong. I always knew what it felt like to be an outsider and not wanting to have people feel that way. So it really started from the beginning. I came from an industry that was failing because of where it was. When I came into the entertainment industry, I didn't want to have that same feeling. I really had to think back about what is my purpose in life? You know, why am I here? Why am I doing what I'm doing? The entertainment industry allowed me to kind of figure out what that purpose was, to really advocate for storytellers, advocate for the importance of people seeing themselves, including myself. My family's from Brazil. I'm from Brazil. I was born there, and so immigrating to America when I was nine years old certainly was a shock in many ways. It took a while to adjust to it, and I'm so grateful for the sacrifices my parents made so that we get to pursue our dreams, and I always gravitated towards story. I learned English watching movies and TV shows, you know, that really just pulled me in, and it was always something that really moved me, and so when I decided to pursue this, there's no way I'm not gonna be successful at this. There's too many sacrifices that have been made for me to come out here and not achieve something. Like you guys said, it was inherent to just having that lens on how I was seeing how people were treated and the spaces I was operating in and why there weren't more people that looked like me that looked like this room, and it started to dawn on me that this was something I was thinking about, but not everyone was thinking about, and so I made it my business to be more focused on bringing that to the forefront of everything that I was doing, especially as I sit in a position of hiring power, and so getting to take the time, rather, that is required to be able to find the candidates, to give opportunities, to take chances on people. It's really what is the name of the game, and so many people took chances on me, so I feel indebted to pay that back. If you look at the statistics, women are making some progress in Hollywood in this industry, but do you think they're making enough progress, and are they making it fast enough? Not to be a gloomy person about it, but I actually don't. Optically, it looks that way. We've had the success of Barbie, Beyonce, and Taylor Swift, and all these incredible women, but the majority of us have not been able to progress as quickly as we should, given the amount of focus you think is put on this topic, and it's a real problem. I think it's actually, I would say, a crisis in our industry. And it also is still in this place where it takes women to help women move ahead. Like, look at the work that Tulane's company has done, and with Ava. I would love for it to get to a point that everybody sees the value in helping half of our society move forward, because if we have to keep relying on each other, but barriers are still being created in front of us, then how do we actually change the narrative, and how do we actually change the landscape? And I think we're seeing a rollback in entertainment, but also politically, you know, with banning of books, a lot of women losing their positions, departments being eliminated, they're the first to go. And I think that that is really a struggle, especially when you have structures and systems where it's not built in, where it's not part of the DNA of that company to make sure that there's inclusion and that there's diversity. But it's exciting as well, because now we get to change those systems and change those structures. That's hope in the work that we're doing. How can diversity of film and TV help in this regards? If you think about your favorite television show, or your favorite movie, your favorite song, you know, these are things that resonate with you throughout your lifetime, and it just shows the power of film and television, as well as art, period. It's important for us because we could actually use this as a tool for good. I know that sounds corny, but it's so powerful, right? What we could do with, you know, using story to be able to move people forward, to move a society forward. That's the impact. It's not just about the box office. It's not just about how many ad sales your television show can make, but really it could be a power of change. Honestly, I feel like art and commerce, but there's art in there. And art is self-care. Art is mental health. Art is how we express ourselves as humans. We have to be able to see ourselves. It's in seeing yourself that you feel validated as a human on earth. To have art that actually shows the world as it is, is so important for the next generation, and for us to leave a legacy. To me, so much of why I create is from a space of healing, things from my past, and healing things that I know other people have been through, and feeling okay. Do you feel like art helps open our hearts? A hundred percent. Art helps open our hearts. Couldn't say that more. You see the number of people who have talked to me about shows I've been on and said, I don't even look like the people on that screen, but you know what? I feel this story, like that is monumental to me. It almost means more when someone who's different from me sees value in what I've created. Because I say, yeah, there it is. There's human connection. And when we feel that human connection, there's more of a chance that we might open up and see someone as equal to us. You can't become what you can't see, right? And that change is so important. And our industry does sit at the forefront of being responsible for making these changes, and the kinds of stories we're able to tell, and the kinds of characters we write, the casting, and then everything behind the scenes, the people that we're empowering to do these jobs. The economics of Hollywood is incredible. The amount of opportunities that exist behind the scenes. There's so many opportunities there that a lot of people don't know about. They don't have access to even understand. But if they grew up and they have a certain skill set, they can transition that into an industry and find a union job that's gonna set them up and really take them out of whatever financial situation they may be in. That could be a really good pathway for them. And so I think it's extremely important. And the DEI component of it is just inherent. And it's also, frankly, good business. It's just like, yes. You have to make stories that collectively represent the market. And that is what we are trying to do. But there always seems to be a block at taking chances on these stories that shouldn't feel like taking chances. It should just be the norm. I always hear the word risk. It's a risk. And I'm like, wait, it's a risk to represent a large segment of our country? And that feels so strange to have people push back against something. But very often it's because the deciders at the very top are so disconnected. And to counter that, I think it's a risk not to represent those people. What is the psychological impact of going through your life, not feeling yourself seen or represented, feeling disconnected? I think that does, if you were to do a study, actually matter to the collective consciousness of who we are as a society. Talk a little bit about some of the barriers you've seen also, Tulane, and how you're trying to break those down with Array. In our industry, I think we've moved forward as far as storytelling is. And we've gotten to the point where the door has been open for storytellers to be able to tell their story. But really the barriers start throughout the industry. It's through every level, whether it's the executive that's green lighting, the distributor, the marketer who's marketing that, a critic that may not be familiar with the story and what their criticism can do to a project. And then the awards. We have a award system that really doesn't reflect us. The barriers are tremendous. Whether you're working on set and it's the people that are on set with you, you come on set and it's majority white male on a set and it doesn't reflect you as a person or your story. Through our company, we've been trying to really restructure and set new systems by creating Array Releasing, which distributes films for people of color and women of all kinds. Array Crew, which helps productions be able to have below the line crew that really looks like the world. And our nonprofit. We are trying to not just fund, but also educate about what the possibilities are. You're a gardener. You can work on a set. You're a mechanic. You can work on a set. You're an accountant. You can work in the entertainment industry. And so really trying to recreate what the systems and structures are are gonna be key for changing our industry and also making sure that it still continues to have a life after we're gone. When I was a little girl, I always gravitated towards the shows where there were strong female characters. Being able to actually see that on screen made me say, oh, I wanna be like that person. I wanna have that kind of role. So talk a little bit about if you can, where do you see things actually starting to get better in this industry? I think conversations like this. I think the work that everyone here is doing is a step in the right direction. There's many ripples that are being made, but we need a tsunami is sort of how I feel. There is so much energy being put towards this and everyone in my community that I surround myself with, this is another day, another dollar. We talk about this all the time. I live this every day. How do we expand beyond us to the other people, to our allies that we need to collectively care about this, to make this a priority, a forefront, so that we can actually make that change? Something that gives me hope is all of the independent programs that have sprung up over the last few years to support different communities talking to each other. And when we actually are sharing information and talking to each other and sharing resources, that is how even though one company or one organization might be fighting one barrier, another one fighting another barrier, can come together and actually create more change. It's so valuable to see the barriers between us are disappearing because they've treated us so bad, now we're talking. You know? There is always power in the collective. I have seen this everywhere in the world, that when people band together, you have more power in that collective. I would say any great movement has every person involved. When you look at the civil rights movement, it could not have been successful if it wasn't the domestic workers involved, if it wasn't priests, if it wasn't educators, if it wasn't politicians holding hands and really wanting the same thing. And I think within our industry, that's what it's gonna take. It's gonna take all of us together to figure this out and really create, again, different structures and different systems. It's broken. What we have now does not work for everyone that wants to be a part of it. And so we have to resurrect ourselves. We have to come together as a movement, as a group, and really create something different, right? That really serves all of us in different ways and has a different focus. Our focus, I think, in entertainment has very much been what's the bottom line, what's the dollar? And of course, every business wants to make money, but we could be so much more powerful if the focus was in a different direction, in really using our films and TV shows to really create change. It's such a powerful thing. Like you were saying, you hear people coming and saying, I relate to your story. Even though it's not my story, even though the people on the screen may not look like me, that is so powerful. And I think that we're not taking advantage of that power at this point. And it's gonna take all of us to really shift that. You have people like Shonda Rhimes who really has created more diversity on TV shows over time, or Reese Witherspoon started her production company and then sold it that's telling different female stories. And then there was Barbie this summer. Talk about that. Is that creating change here or is it not creating change? Oh my gosh. You probably could tell me chapter and verse about that. Yeah, not to jump in so fast, but as a female comedy writer, I'm on so many group chats about the industry learning the wrong lessons from Barbie. Barbie came out and then the article was, Mattel's opening up the toy chest. It's our toys that did it. And I'm like, what about the female filmmaker at the center of it? And something where there's always been a little bit of a hesitancy to support not just women in entertainment, but also comedy. The world is so dark right now. These are the stories that bring us together. These are the things that give us conversations that aren't just what's on the evening news. It's dangerous because optically it looks amazing. We've had Barbie, we've had all of these wins, but the data doesn't really support that. And we're so grateful Barbie exists, but we need one of those every year to become the norm. It shouldn't be this outlier thing that we propped up. Women lead audiences to the theater. It's women who are dragging their men to the theater. And you look at the data out of Stacey Smith, out of the USC, the Annenberg Initiative, it's great, but it is misleading because we are actually back to where we were in the mid 2010s in terms of progress. Women represented on screen, women in front and behind the camera. It's remarkable on the one hand that we're so grateful that it exists, but you can't use that as a comp for success or progress in our industry. And even through organizations I'm a part of, like Women in Film just had their 50 year gala last year. It was incredible, inspiring. And the woman who was talking up there said, I don't wanna be here in a hundred years. I don't wanna be celebrating a hundred years of this. I want us to just be able to exist in this industry without having to quantify our gender, our identity, and just to be. And that really resonated with me in her saying that at this rate, it will take over a hundred years for us to really make that progress. And we don't have that kind of time. It's a testament to one is not enough. Can't have a one-off, right? Can't have a one-off. You gotta have a tsunami. A tsunami, exactly. And I think our industry also, when it is just one, they kind of say, oh, it's a phenomenon. And that's not what it is. We need to have more. There are so many great stories out there that aren't receiving that same recognition. And even when one does, like you said, the studies show it's just not as impactful as it's perceived to be. And it's so surprising because also, women have so much buying power in this country. I mean, as you said, they're the ones who lead to the box office. Look at the summer of Beyonce and Taylor Swift. I know, I know. Just to close out, if there was one thing you could change about the industry, what would it be? Just one. I honestly think it starts with investment. Investment in women across the board early on. How we incubate, how we nurture, how we give access and opportunities, how we invest in women. How many women can't progress because they don't have the funding to go make their first short film that's a proof of concept for a feature because no one will give you money to do a feature unless you have a proof of concept. But so many others have been given those opportunities. So many men have been given those opportunities. Risks have been taken. Why are we so selective on who we take those risks on? I don't understand. So investing in women early on at every part of the process and at every specificity of the trade is, I think, the only way you start to, in 10, 20 years time, see this boom of women who are qualified. So when you have these executive positions open up, these C-suite jobs, you have the people that are qualified to fill them. And it isn't just like, ugh, we'll take a risk on one. If it works, awesome. If not, we're gonna go back to the other 100 candidates we've been hiring year after year. Isn't it funny that we say, oh, I'm gonna take a risk on having that woman in this job. How about, it's just great business sense to have a woman in that job because she probably knows the market pretty well. And brings the perspective you need. Yes. Business perspective. Like, yes. I do think if I could change one thing, it would be who gets to say yes to projects across the board. I predominantly come from television and TV was built on young executives going with their gut. Like, feeling a thing. And even though at the time, that kind of made a slightly homogenous slate of shows, I think now that there are more executives moving up, we have to get them in positions of power before they're too advanced in their lives. Not just their careers, but in their lives to have a gut instinct anymore. Your gut is different when you have two mortgages and four kids. Your gut is different. And so I'm like, that creative gut of like, I don't know, I like it. Like, we need that back. And right now it feels like across the board everywhere, a lot of decisions are being made thinking up instead of down. And I think if we can actually think who is watching as opposed to who am I pleasing? How do I keep my job? We would actually get better shows and maybe more original content that isn't all based on IP. I honestly think it isn't one thing. Well, that's true. I agree. I'm like, it's one thing. I really don't think that it's one thing, just from both of your comments. It's really across the board. We have to really work together. We have to ingrain this philosophy and this thinking around women, around people of color, that we're important and we're valued and that we need to be in every sector of our industry to make it great. So, you know, there's really not one answer, I don't think. Starting with this conversation, working collectively, setting up new systems, you know, and really making sure that it's part of the DNA of everything that we do is a start. It's just so important for also our children in society to be able to see, as you said, you can't be what you can't see, right? And to be able to look up and say, oh my gosh, look at those amazing women or those amazing people from this other country or that amazing story and who created it. I'm interested in that, you know, or I can be like that person. It's important to have that cross intersection of industry and of thought, even though we all struggle with this in every industry. I think sometimes people can look to Hollywood and go, why aren't they doing better? Why are they making these choices? But it's like, we are collectively working really hard to make these changes. And it's important that people outside of our industry hear that. Well, my hat's off to all of you for what you're doing to try and push the industry forward.