The Sean Trace Show #92 - Salvatore Totino ASC, AIC (Be here. Be Present.)

Welcome back to the Sean Trey show. I got a really awesome guest with me today. Now, would you like to introduce yourself and tell people who you are and what you do? Hi, I'm Salvatore Totino, the director of photography and emotion picture industry. Brother, we've done enough. That's awesome. I haven't seen you. I got, I got the chance to work with you guys a long time ago. Was it, was it like 12, 12, 15 years ago, a long time ago. Again, 2008, 2008 and angels and demons. Yeah. Angels. Yeah. There's 12 years, 12, 13. Yeah. And it was really awesome to see you guys work. And, and, um, I always wanted a chance to sit down. I kind of pick your brain about how did, how did you find this career? Oh God, I kind of fell into it. I, you know, I was on a whole different trajectory. Um, I went to college for engineering. I quit. I became an electrical contractor. Working was going to then become a New York city policeman. I took the test, all this sort of stuff. And, uh, a second cousin who worked in the film business in the one big Italian family event. He was there and we started talking. He's like, well, you know, he was telling me what he did. And I was interested. I was always very interested in photography. So my parents immigrated to America and it's like you either went to school or you wanted to trade. There was no, this, uh, making a living as an artist kind of thing. You know, they didn't understand it. And, and nor was it, you know, um, that culture was developed in my, my household. So, uh, you know, I always had this interest in photography and I went, so I'm at work and I really want them, you know, know about it more. And he's like, you know, you need to quit your job and become a PA. And then, so I did that and I got a job as a PA and I started working as a PA and I got my way into the camera department and met a great camera assistant who worked, uh, his name is Paul Gaffney and he worked with Jack Donnelly on commercials. And, uh, he took me under his wing and started training me. It's awesome. Got my hands, hands on, on camera and just started learning. I'm a, uh, you know, what do they call it? Um, that this deck, uh, learner, you know, I learned with my hands really well. And I'm, I'm dyslexic. So like reading manuals and stuff like that, you kind of get the gist, but when you get your hands on it, somebody shows you it's like an immediate click. Um, so, you know, I, I started learning camera and then I was working as a camera assistant. I started moving my way up and I met a cinematographer by the name of Harris Sabides, who just started breaking out from the still world into the music video world and I started working with them. And, and from there it led to me meeting a commercial music video director by the name of Peter Kerr. And Peter, um, sort of liked my eye when I was making suggestions. And one day, you know, started to let me shoot B camera. And then one day he's like, you let me shoot, you let me shoot a small little MTV promo form. And then the rest is history. It's awesome, man. Now, now, so you, you, this is so great about this country. It's like, right. You can do anything, right. You know, you know, you, you need somebody to show you a door sometimes, but it's up to you to open that door and step in. Um, and you know, I, I, I think we're very fortunate, you know, very fortunate to live here. I've been very lucky in that sense. Taking the opportunities and working hard to get your work ethic and turn in, you know, um, you know, making your passion, your life. I was having this conversation with someone recently because two people that were from, from outside the U S one was from, from Europe and one was from here in Asia. And they were like, they were commenting about that. Like there is this ability in the States still to, to, to there's, you can make waves if you have, if you understand that relationships are important and you understand the value of, of just hustling, you know, because my friend was saying in, in, um, you know, in, in where he was at in Europe, it was all relationships, but it was all these old relationships. So it was really hard to kind of break in. And, and so he was saying like, it was a real challenge at times to kind of make inroads, but you know, that's the beauty of like, are you right? Like there is this ability. I love reading, I love going back and reading some of the, you know, all the old stories about like, you know, Rockefeller time and it's like the wild West of, of business, but like, Oh, they were ruthless, but you know, it's just like a little borderline mafia, you know, killing people. And it's just like, it was totally different, but yeah, there was still this, like this idea has always been there of being like self-made, you know, of, of kind of being able to, to kind of create things where you go with, you couldn't necessarily do that in other places, you know? So, no, no. And, and I think that that's, that's sort of really wonderful. And it's just a matter of, you know, a lot is applying yourself. I mean, at work, when I see, you know, crew members that somebody who's like really interested in is taking that extra step, trying to, you know, uh, they got a great work ethic and you, you approach them and you're like, Hey, what do you want to do with your life? And they're like, Oh yeah, no, I want to be a DP. And I'm like, all right, you know, start asking me questions. Let me help you. You know, you, you see that in people and then you want to sort of reach out. Awesome. And, and help them, uh, you know, get themselves through that door. And I think that there's a lot more, uh, in society today than there was 30 years ago or 40 years ago, especially 50 years ago that, you know, a lot of people are noticing people's abilities and giving them opportunities, not everywhere, not everywhere, but they are, you know, I mean, you know, look at, look at, look at Elon Musk, right? I mean, come on, the guy immigrated to America, you know, dropped out of Stanford and look where he is today. Right. You know, he's, he's because of him, the whole green movement, the EV movement in the United States has just gone right. You know, GM and Ford would have not propelled. No way. Like, like he has. And now everybody, you know, people, you know, some people vilify him and then other young people are inspired by him and it gets people to think differently and to try different things out and go, Hey, he could do something. I could do something. And that's the thing. And it's like, sometimes people, there was this interesting book that I read. Oh man, what was it called? Um, I'll pop up. I put it a pop up later and I I'll message you later on. I think it was called the hero class or the, the, the leader class or something. There was this book about, about leaders. And one of the things that they talked about was that true leaders are always disruptors and a disruptor can either be extremely good or can lead to absolute chaos to the system. But no matter what, when you get a disruptor who comes in, they, they reset things and the society has to reset kind of around them, you know, granted, it's not always good, but quite often the aftermath of it is a positive because people have to reset. And that's one of the things I like about Elon Musk is that the man is the penultimate disruptor. Like he came in and when the system was like before PayPal, think about it. You wanted to send money to something. You wanted to buy something online. You know, it was so difficult, you know, and then suddenly PayPal just changed the game and then same thing, all of the different things that he's come along. Granted, you know, I don't know if all of his ideas will succeed. You know, we'll see how the boring company pans out, but you know, space X private, I privatizing space flight and, you know, and Tesla has changed the game for automotive. It's, it's, it's awesome like that, you know? And it's, it's interesting. It's interesting to see that. I think that we're allowed now to become a little bit more free thinkers and to propel ourselves because there isn't a bureaucracy in the way with, with the whole internet and the technology is always, you could always circumvent that. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting. It's interesting what's happening in media and news media now with all these independent outlets and you know, where that's heading. And you know, what, where the truth is going. And I'm not, it's just, it's wonderful. I mean, we're living in LA and, um, an interesting time. And I think it's a, a, a time of really big change. And that's, that's one of the things, you know, and you see that, go ahead, go, please. Okay. No, please do. No, no. It's one of the things. No, no, no, go. I got it. No, there was one of the things that I, that, that, that inspired me to start this podcast was because there's so much content out there that, that, you know, I kind of, I was getting lost, you know what I mean? And I just was like, I'm stepping back from politics, stepping back from this. And I was like, I want to have, hear people's stories and kind of see here how they approach their motivation. Because man, if we can, if we can, if we can share with people a little bit about how someone got to the point that they got, man, it just, it makes it so much easier, you know, to, to, to take a chance and to try, you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I do. And it's, it's, it's interesting you say that because, you know, working in the film business, a lot of times you're on for far, far locations, you got a long drive and what I do when I get in the cars, I'm looking at a podcast for a podcast to listen to, you know, and I might not hear the whole thing on the way to work, but then I'll play it on the way back, you know, it's very, some of them are really thought provoking and sparks your interest in making you look in different directions or doing more research at something that sounds interesting to you. And, um, it's just, it's fascinating. It's just fascinating. And we're having all this, this new technology has entered the film industry as well, you know? Yeah. And when it first came in, I was really skeptical of the digital technology. Um, you know, it was Aerie and Panavision were working sort of on some digital cameras they don't have, and they didn't have the huge resources to throw a lot of money into it. So it was very slow moving. Then came along Red Camera, who was backed by, um, uh, I think when the owner, I think it's the owner of Oracle or, uh, uh, yeah, I think so. And so they had a lot of money and they developed this digital camera, you know, they, they use some of the technology that the still world was using, uh, Canon and Nikon, and then they sort of propelled it into a motion technology. And it became such a fad right away because all of a sudden anybody could buy a camera for $20,000, you know, and, and they would be able to put different, you could put still lenses on it. So you didn't have to spend $10,000, you know, a lens for a motion picture lens, you know, you know, a whole kid will cost you, you know, a quarter of a million dollars. Um, so, you know, it got a lot of people out there shooting. And the thing, the thing for me is that, you know, it was being touted as this great thing, but I kept looking at it and looking at film and saying, it doesn't look anything like that. And what I started to get nervous about was that we were now going to start training society to start looking at films differently and, and, um, kind of accept this lesser visual. But because of that, it propelled Aeroflex and Panavision and Sony to really start getting up in their game. Yeah. And they realized that because they were the film companies and they realized, you know we need to really come out with cameras that emulate film better. And they did. And they did, you know, it took a while to get there and it did, it did sort of change. Um, you know, it's very different the way we film and work with digital than we do with film. This is something that I had heard that the way that people that, you know, um, I remember when we were working on angels, they, you guys were shooting on film and, you know, and film film is expensive and precious. You know what I mean? And, and versus now I was talking to people and they're like, people are doing longer takes and just keeping the camera running. Yeah. A little bit of that's problematic as well. Sometimes some directors will just go, go again, go again, keep it rolling, go again. And some, you know, depending on the actors are like, wait, you know, I just did 12 takes. What do you want different? And the director's like, well, just do it again. It's like, well, if I did it again, why am I doing it the same way again? You know? Yeah. So, you know, and so then, you know, it's, it's cheaper, a little cheaper, the technology, but that now you're making your day longer. Yeah. And now you have a lot more data that needs to get ingested and then need to have, you know, assistant editors and, and sought through that. So your, your, um, your workflow, your supply chain, so to speak now is starting to get bigger. Yeah. And so, you know, it, it adds a backend cost. Uh, but for me, it's more about the visual aspect of it. Now with film, you know, you had, you needed to understand the science and the chemistry and where and how you could push that. And you had a small window of latitude that you worked in. Um, what I do like about film and has this type of grain to it, it feels a little bit more alive than a digital image does. Yeah. I'm, I'm a, I'm a huge film photographer. I, I, I, you know, I shoot film constantly. I just, I just went out to the beach with my family and I shot about eight rolls of, uh, I just grabbed some, we, it was really bright. So I was shooting on Kodak pro image 100. I love, I love my Kodak though. There are some really nice, we, we had, that was the one problem with the pandemic. I couldn't get anything. You know, I love shooting on portrait 800 and all that, but once the country couldn't get anything. So all that we can get right now is gold 200 and a pro image. Oh, really? Oh, that older stuff. Oh, we get a ton of the old stuff here, man. Wow. Yeah. But the thing is in scanning the developed. Oh, they have great developers here. I've got tons. There's all of these people and it's so cheap. That's the awesome thing about shooting film in Southeast Asia. It's so cheap for how, what is it? Uh, so for about $4, I get a role developed plus high risk scans. No, really? Plus high risk. Oh my God. You know, that's, it's like $20. And I know that's what my friend was saying. It's so expensive in the States. It's like, oh man, I only pay $4 and it's like a high risk. Wow. Yeah. It's great. But the film, the film is the same price as back home. Same price. Right. Yeah. Cause I can imagine that. But that grain, that grain people don't get it, man. People know, unless you shoot film. No, right. Or like, you know, for like, if you want to get like big Bali grain, for example, like you're trying to create an older look, you might shoot 16 black and white right under, expose it and then push it. And the more you push it, then more that grain comes out. And it's, you can't emulate something like that digitally. I mean, there's like a fake digital aspect to it. Uh, but you know, the digital, the digital post tools are getting better. Yeah. The thing that bothers me though, is when you do shoot film today, they're taking that film and they're putting them through really high res scanners. Yeah. So you're now looking at an image that, that is almost looking very digital. They put a four or six K scanners so you can almost manipulate that negative almost this much. So, you know, it's kind of, it's a defeat the purpose. And you, so you try, there's a, you know, a company I work with called company three post house. They do, they do all my coloring and I'm like, do you guys have, there's a spirit in the hallway. Is it hooked up? And they're like, no, no, we have that as an art piece. I'm like, no, it would be great to like use the spirit to transfer, you know? Cause that's what we used to do back in the day. Yeah. Cause it, you know, it, it kept that look to it. It's not, it's not the same anymore. It's interesting. It is. You know, it's interesting though, to see one of the things that, that, that, that I was, and I chatted to this with, with this to, um, to someone recently about how there is a real culture shift too, with this, with these people, the people that have shot film that are grown up with film. And then this younger generation that, let me make an example. I had, I had a couple of kids that, um, I, I was the transitional, like I was in university. I was shooting on, you know, film, but then right after I graduated, you know, I, you know, got a hold of a five D mark two and was able to kind of, it was like the first DSLR that had some video aspects to it, you know? And, um, but the young kids now, like when I get hired videographer and to, to, to help shoot some of our music videos, you know, I'll be directing stuff. And this, these kids are just like, you know, and I was like, okay, there's just this whole other, because they're so used to gimbals and they're so used to shooting digital that these, these, they're just running around all over the place. And I was like, what's your shot? You know? I, and, and I mean, and that, like, that's one of my things, like, what are you, what are you, what, what's your framing? What are you pulling? Because, you know, my dad was a photographer. He was an archeological to photography, travel around the world to shoot archeological digs. It's pretty cool, man. He's got some photos that were pretty wild. I can imagine. Yeah. And, uh, you know, and he was always just, you'd be drilling in on me, like, get your framing, you know, frame your shot, you know, where, you know, you know, rule of thirds looking at, you know, your, your, your spirals, your Fibonacci type stuff. And he was, that was, that was a big thing for him. And when I was trying to talk to some of these young guys, I was like, Hey, you know, are you a frame? And you're like, dude, we're shooting, you know, super high res. We can do it all in post. And I was like, and it's just this different approach, man. It's a different approach and it's a different type of discipline really. And what's, what's disturbing about, about it for me is that the idea of apprenticeship has gone out the window and that's, that's because you could hose something down and then you could figure it out later, you know, now it's up to an editor and you know, who's ever sitting in that room to edit that together and pick out those pieces as opposed to learning the fundamentals, learning it and then applying that and being free, you know, using that, that foundation, that base, but sort of still being a free thinker, you know, they're just running around like free thinkers, which is great, but then they don't have that foundation and they don't know. Sometimes they don't know, like if I'm on this angle, I know now I do this and that could cut to this. Or I'm going to need to then get a little breath here because, you know, at this point in the story, it needs to be sort of a moment where the audience takes it all in. And, you know, that's, that's a disturbing part about where this technology is going is yes, it's wonderful that, you know, it's opened up all these opportunities, but yet it's, it's allowing people not to educate themselves. And that's, to me, if you look at all sort of a lot of great visualists and artists throughout history, they've all sort of apprenticed in one way or another. This was a huge discussion I had the other day about how some of the best education is based upon people apprenticing, about really finding and coming to the tutelage of people who can show you. I got so lucky that I remember when I was in LA, I had moved up to LA and I was just trying to just trying to get to do something. Right. And I got, I got a call. They're like, Hey, do you want to come on to Angels and Demons for two weeks? And I was stuck. And luckily I made friends with Jackson. Jackson Rowe was one of the PAs and he kept me around. He's like, Oh, Jackson. Yeah. So Jackson, we were hanging out and I was just, I was stuck with it because we were out at, at, at Hollywood. What was it? Hollywood Park. And yeah, where we had the forum and. Exactly. Right. And across the forum and all that big set. And I was just sitting there for it. I was, we have been there for 10 days and I've just been sitting in and holding for 10 days because I was, I was, I was going to be one of the riot cops. And luckily Jackson was like, Sean, you want to stick around for longer and work on this movie for longer? I'll get you on as a stand-in. I was like, I have no idea what that is, man. So I had just moved up and I was just getting, I didn't stay with acting much after that. I didn't do anything else. But what was awesome with that, because I got behind the camera after that was that for five months, I got to stand around set as long as I wasn't getting in the way and watching all you guys work. And I was just like, I was like a sponge soaking it in. And I remember you always in the corner. Always in the corner, I was hovering. I was like, I can't even pay for this. You know, this is, this is better than film school. And I was just watching it when, when afterwards I just was taking all that stuff and I've used it forever, but it was just watching everyone. Everyone was learning. Everyone was putting it. I mean, of course people were doing their jobs, but like watching the camera team and they were just, you know, they were doing their jobs, but also everyone was absorbing, you know, it was, everyone was like, just, just, just taking it in. And it was awesome to see that, to see this environment where of course people are professionals and working, but you have, you know, the lower rungs that are just putting their time in and paying attention. And that it's so valuable because, you know, no matter what, we still live in a world where that those 10,000 hours create mastery. And certainly, you know, people have ways to kind of jump to the front of the line, but if you don't have those 10,000 hours, you will not have that knowledge base to, to, to be a true master. I think of your craft, granted, you can be really good at what you do, but you might not be really well-rounded, you know? That's very true. But you also, if you do have the sort of mindset where you're open-minded and willing to still learn and be a sponge and absorb when you've moved to the head of the line, then you have a better chance. Exactly. It's when you get there and you, and you still not, you know, you see, you know, films and shows where a DP will come in and they're working on something they've never been around before. And now they're relying on the gaffer and the grip. And sometimes the gaffer is just lighting the set and the DPs will be like, well, I like that. No, I don't like this. I don't like that. And the gaffer is trying different things as opposed to, he knows like what light to use and, and where to put the light or, you know, how, you know, like on angels and demons, um, back in St. Peter's square, I knew with all that coverage, you know, I needed two big 300 ton construction cranes that needed to hold 40 by 40 boxes. Now I know what a 300 construction crane, the biggest box I could build light, the soft light box is 40 feet by 60 feet. If it's constructed a certain way and a certain depth, you know? And how much weight you could put into that. And I know that how much light that's going to give me to cover an area. And then what I needed to do to edge that, you know, we have 20 condors also around there with shitload of 20 case on them. We were burning like $4,000 in fuel a night. It was crazy. It was insane. But you know, that comes with sort of experience and having been on jobs and learning. So now, you know, you get on a job and you've moved to the head of the line. Now you could be a sponge at that moment and be, you know, go to the gaffer in the grip and say, hey, I kind of like this look I've seen in this film. How do we achieve that? And they're like, well, you know, we build a light box and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we could put this in it and that in it. And you're like, oh, okay, that's interesting. How do you do that? You know, what lights you use? Well, let's test a few different lights. You know, and even now you're still testing, you know, I'm about to this week, I have a square that I have to film at night and I put a little soft box over it. But I'm also want to edge light it. And I'm testing different types of lights right now because there's some new technology out there. And I need to I need to know whether these LEDs are going to give me the throw that I need. You know, so it's like I've been doing this for 30, I don't know, you know, and I'm still like, oh, let me test this. Let me test that, you know, because technology is changing. The environment you in is that you're working in now is a little different. So, you know, you have to you have to be open to that and you have to be willing to do that. It's when it's when sort of the, you know, new people, young people come in and they're not willing to sort of open up their minds. And I think that that's and, you know, a lot of that comes from insecurity. And we've all been there, you know, because you're just kind of starting out and that's OK, you know, but I think I'm the first one now, you know, at 58 years old, I'm the first one to say, I don't know that. Yeah, right. I'm sorry. I fucked up. I you know, it was my responsibility. I'll even do that with like a word because I'm dyslexic. Like, what is that meaning? What's that mean? You know, you know, it's wonderful. It's like Ron Howard knows that my vernacular and what I struggle with. And it's just funny because he's got this incredible vernacular and he'll say a word sort of describing something sometimes. Then he knows I don't know it. At the at the end of what he says, he'll turn to me and give me the definition. You know, that's like a true friend, you know. But, you know, it's not not to be afraid to say, I don't know. Yeah, right. I don't know. Fuck, man. I don't know. I think I want to know. Yeah, right. That's it. That's help me. I want to know. Exactly. Don't know. And I want to know. And I think that that's that. And so that that's sort of the difference. I think sometimes people think it shows weakness. So that's why they won't do it. Yeah. As opposed to it showing strength. Yeah. I'll trust somebody a lot more if they express their lack of knowledge in something. You know, I don't know that. How do I do that? You know what? I respect that. Let me show you. Let me teach you. You know, now you'll know. Yeah, exactly. It's like imagine like, you know, there's something to be said for people wanting to try something. But, you know, if you don't know, you don't know. There's no shame in saying, hey, man, can you can you help me out? Can you help me learn this? You know, and that's not to say don't try. Exactly. Keep trying. Yeah, I'm trying, you know, and, you know, I mean, like the most wonderful thing, you know, I've done so many different types of projects and I've been all around the world and it's been incredible. I've had an incredible life. I have a great living. And the thing that I get the most excited about is when I'm able to give back. Right. So so when I'm able to help somebody who doesn't know something, pass some knowledge along, see somebody walk away, even if they don't ask the question, but walk away and, you know, they just learned something, they got something. Makes me feel good because that's the only thing you can really give in this world. Yeah. You know, look, I'm not going to give strangers my, you know, my inheritance because of my kids. Other than that, I could give them any knowledge that I that I may know. Yeah, that was. And also knowledge I don't know. Exactly. Learn from that, too. Exactly. You know, that was one of the things that I was thinking about. That was my daughter. One of the reasons I started this podcast, too, is because I wanted, you know, I recognize that now I have an understanding of where my parents were at when I was growing up, but I never got to have those conversations with them, you know, and they're still around. But, you know, I'm here working on my business and running all of my projects. And I have my daughter that I, you know, I have to watch out for. I've got my hands full and the chances that we get to have these deep conversations, you know, asking my dad, Dad, can you share some of that that wisdom with me? We don't always get those chances, you know. And so I wanted to create this space so that I could have something that hopefully 30 years, my daughter will be able to turn that on and go, wow, that wasn't a complete asshole. So actually, it was interesting, you know, and that there's these other people that have, I don't have all the information. And that's one of the things that I have in all of this, you know, with the last couple years of this information overload, with things with COVID, with things about life, about the world, I became very aware. I studied Eastern philosophy. And one of the things that I love is the Taoist book, the Tao Te Ching. And there's this quote from Lao Tzu. And it says, the wise, the idiot thinks he knows everything. The wise man knows that he knows nothing. And, you know, I think that that's the point. Exactly what we're saying. Exactly, man. Like, in the grand scheme of things, I think we're probably pretty smart people. But let's be real, man. Compared to like all of the knowledge out there, I don't know shit. You know what I mean? And it's like, there's just this whole world. And like, you start going into other areas. Like, I was interviewing this microbiologist. And all of a sudden, the language that was being used to me, I'm like, I do not know what you're talking about. But it's cool, you know? But you're speaking like foreign language over here to me, man, you know? But educate me. Educate me on it, you know? Exactly. And everybody that's listening. It was a great interview. Prasin, he's a Nat Geo photographer. And he's a molecular biologist. And he was talking about how he was up in the Himalaya. And he was doing photos of snow leopards. And he was sitting with these cameras. Not easy to find. No. And he was talking about the impact of humans on snow leopards. And his whole thing was that he was doing these photos so that people could see how interconnected we are with nature. And it was just like the whole interview. I'm just sitting there going, whoa. It was just mind-blown. Because it was this level of knowledge that was beautiful. And I was just getting educated the whole time. I was just like, damn, that's awesome, man. Those are the best conversations. It's wonderful. Go ahead, please. Go ahead. No, it's just amazing how, yes, we are impacting wildlife. And wildlife, some of it's adapting to live with us. And where I live, I got a mountain lion that lives across the street from me. There's bobcats, and there's snakes, and deer, and coyote. And I live in a city. And they've learned. Have you seen in, I think it's Mumbai, the panthers that come into the city at night looking for food? The wildlife has learned to adapt to some degree. And if you use that as an analogy, they've learned to adapt to their situation. And it's kind of like, in a way, what we were talking about here. It's like, we should take this knowledge. Everything is knowledge to us, and how we take and interpret it, and learn from it, as opposed to, as you said, the Tao said, an idiot. So it's interesting. It's really, if you look at the universe, a lot of it's probably circular. For sure. Then it's circular. Circular. Very much so. Yeah, things do come in waves, and cycle back through constantly. Now, where do you go for inspiration? You want to be inspired. You know, I mean, inspiration's really interesting, because it comes from a lot of different places. A lot of different places. And a lot of it, music, for me, like Nick Cave, and Tom Waits, and the Tinder sticks, their poetry's weighed a lot on me, visually. Because the way they, what they're singing about, what they write about, just creates visuals to me, and makes me feel a certain way, which I turn into a visual. You know, Nick Cave has got this blog called The Red Hand Files. I'll have to take a look at that. Oh, yeah, it's really interesting. So people write into him. And sometimes he writes something. And there's one particular, I think it's, I don't know why I keep remembering, it's like 116 or 114, it's about an anchor. A boat and an anchor. And Nick wrote a song about an anchor. That's awesome. He wants to get the name of the song. And, you know, so, you know, that's sort of an, you know, inspiration to me. Paintings, you know, art has always been an inspiration. Not because of, oh, you know, that's beautiful, and that Caravaggio, and that light, and how that light comes in. You know, I often light in a Caravaggio kind of way. I did some of that in Angels and Demons. But it's not about that. It's about that expression on that subject's face. And what that story is being told at that moment. And what that's meant to be, meant to say, and how that feels. And or like, you look at Caravaggio did a series of paintings that he did twice. And he did them one time in his life. And then he was on the run for murder. And he did the same paintings again. And for example, he did Dinner at Aire's Met. And the two paintings, even though the figures and everything are alike, they look different and they have a different emotion to it. And then you realize, like, he's in a different mindset and it's a different emotion. So, you know, it's like trying to be conscious of that sometimes when you're telling a story and what the story is you're telling about. And what you're, what they're trying to portray, the director, you know, what he's meant to say at this particular point in the film. And so now you go back and you're like, is it Dinner at Aire's Met before or during the Dark Ages? You know, and it's like how you take that and interpret that internally. That's awesome. So, you know, or my inspiration could just be, you know, a moment where I pass somebody in the street and the person has a certain look, the old lady has a certain look on her face. And then you feel like the weight of that on you. You know, there's a painter by the name of George Tooker. And George did these sort of paintings, semi-cubist, some utilitarian type of paintings, like in the 50s, I think they were. And like he did a series like in the subway in New York City. And they had this look on people's faces. And when I was doing Cinderella Man, there's a moment in Cinderella Man where Jim Braddock goes back. True story, too. He goes back to the welfare office to return the relief money he got because he had just won a fight. It's a true story. They have receipts. He returned it to the penny. And that relief office, that welfare office, we created, we used the George Tooker as an inspiration. You know, I brought it to the art director and I was like, look at this. As a look at this emotion and this weight in here. So could you imagine your personal pride? You know, you've always supported your family. And now you've had to go to the relief office and ask for the welfare money. What that must have felt like. Yeah. And what that environment around feels like, you know. You know, there's like a line in the Nick Cave song. It's on the Let Love Rule, Let Love In album. So he's done two songs. The first song, Let Love In, part one, and then Let Love In, part two. Two very different songs. But part two, when you read it, it's about a boy who gets molested in a movie theater. When you listen to it, you know? Yeah. And he talks about his assailant and he says his breath smelled like death and vanilla. You know, so, you know, you take that George Tooker painting and you bring sort of this emotion of death and vanilla. You know, what is that? How does that weigh on you visually? You know, and so, you know, it was a combination of bringing that into that welfare office. Because I can only imagine if I had to go there and ask for money, it would have that kind of weight on me. And, you know, having, you know, it's interesting. I think some people, you see a lot of, you know, and I don't want to sound too negative here, but entitled youth today, you know, because they've grown up in a very different way. You know, when I was young and I wanted to go to the movies, my mom's like, yeah, you can go to the movies, go get a job and get money and go to the movies, you know? So, you know, it wasn't free flowing as easy, you know, as best as they could. I had grown up, you know, where, you know, it's an old Italian community and somebody would have died and there'd be a funeral, there'd be a wake. And your parents couldn't afford a babysitter. So you went to the wake at 10 years old, you know, nine years old. And all your cousins were there, too. And there'd be a dead body laid out. And, you know, all these people crying and wailing. And like, you walked in the room for a second, showed your respect, and then ran outside and was out front of the funeral parlor playing with your cousins, you know? But it's like being exposed to that and knowing what that feels like and what that is, you know, having been exposed at a young age. And I think, you know, when I say the smell of death and vanilla, you know, I think of that, too, you know, and what that is. And so, you know, inspiration comes from a lot of places, you know, comes from bright places, comes from dark places, you know, comes from nature, comes from what you read or what you see, you know, what influences you. And then you try to take that and sort of use those tools as to where you want to help tell the director's story visually. You know, I never look at it as though it's my story, because it's not. It's the director's story. And I'm there really to help the audience on a visual journey on helping that director tell his story or her story. When I say his, I mean that in a generic way. There, there. Sorry. I'm getting used to my pronouns now. Right. You're one of the things that you pointed out. And I noticed this. When I have a camera with me, I start looking at the world differently. Because whenever I'm carrying a camera, I start just slowing down and looking and actually seeing things differently. I remember one day, I was driving. And it just, this is a visual that has forever stuck with me. And it was a moderately windy day. And they have a special type of, you have in Asia, you have different types of monks. There are the monks that like, you know, are like, kind of like a pastor or priest that are like, kind of like, not a politician. But you know, there are people there doing the job part, you know. But then there are these, in Asia, we have like the mendicant monks. These monks that are just wanderers. They just walk on the street peacefully, you know. And their whole thing is to kind of be centered. And they just walk slowly. And there was this Buddhist nun who was there. And the wind caught the robe. And the robes were just dancing behind her. And it was just like, it was one of the most visually stunning things I've ever seen. And it just rang. It just packed. And for me, I find that we have to learn to see. To see. Not to just look, but to see. And I feel like, you know, and to perceive, to smell, you know, what did it taste like? I remember, and I was talking about the positive and the negative. I remember when I was in high school, I was in class. And I just got this bad vibe. I've always been a really intuitive person. I just got this bad vibe. I just was like, I need to leave class right now. I walked out of the class. And I look over in the next classroom. People are running out of the hall of the classroom. And I went in there. I was like, this is not a good situation. Something's wrong. And I went in there. And my teacher, who's actually a good family friend, had passed away. In class? In class. Not my class. The next class over, he was teaching. And he passed right in the middle of class. Just keeled over? Just keeled over. And he had had a massive stroke that put him into cardiac arrest. And I remember that, you know, everyone was frozen. The entire room froze. And it was like slow motion. I ran over and started doing CPR. I did CPR for 20 minutes because we were in a more rural area. CPR for 20 minutes is a really crazy thing. I still can remember every smell in the room. I can still remember every last detail in that room. And every smell, every light, every color, I remember it vividly. And it was because in that moment, life and death became evident. It was just like there was this... I was completely awake trying to do CPR. Probably throughout most of our lives, we're not fully there. We're out here. And I find that for creative expression, to be able to be present and to witness... Remember the movie, American Beauty? There was that scene where he filmed the trash bag. And the trash bag was just dancing in the wind. That's something that I always come back to about beauty. It can be anything if you can be present with it. Yeah, it's about being present. And I think what we do visually is all your senses. It's not just the sense of sight. It's a sense of smell, feeling, taste. It all becomes encompassing. Whether it's in that moment or in another moment in your life, and you've transported to that moment. And it's an interesting, and it's also really powerful. It's a powerful way to be. To walk through life and have all that and be aware of your environment and to be in those moments. It's crazy when you see people that are constantly, constantly, constantly on their phones and down on their phone. I cycle. And sometimes you do 40, 60-mile rides. And, oh, I'm going to listen to a little music. You put one headphone in, because you need to listen to the road. And in a way, you all of a sudden, you kind of forget it at a moment. And then I'm like, I take it out of my ear, because I'm like, cycling is not just about exercise for me. It's also that environment and this moment. I'm out here in nature, whether it's in the city or not. It's a natural environment. And you're like, I want to be in this moment. So I don't listen to music anymore when I'm cycling. I just really take it in. I listen to those sounds and the environment around. You see things more, too, and the smells and all that. And how also it feels on your body. The temperature change and all that. And it's really important that you're just, you're a lot more in that. And I think that, you know, technology or this technology is wonderful. But in a way, it's sort of dumbing us down in another way. It's taking away some of our senses. Or it's not taking it away, but dulling them down. And that makes me, that scares me. That scares me, because what is it going to be 50 years from now, 100 years from now? You know, and now this whole, you know, VR technology. Let's, you know, could you imagine the addiction that's going to happen with that? Yeah, you know what? It's kind of really wonderful. I could put these on and it could take me someplace else. But it's going to take me someplace else only visually and hearing, you know? So to your senses, it's going to take you someplace else. And you're going to try to walk around and move through it and walk into walls because you think you're someplace else and, you know, fall out a window. But, you know, people are going to become addicted to it. And they're going to stop being in the moment. So true. I rode, I ride motorcycles and in Asia, that's what people get around. One of the things that I always love is that when you ride and you're outside, like every sense is heightened. You drive and you cross a river and the second you get above that river, the temperature changes, the moisture changes, and you just, you feel it. And, you know, and in Southeast Asia, you know, you're driving down the street and suddenly you smell that restaurant, you know, and already in cars, cars are kind of like similar to VR, you know, you are enclosed, you have your air conditioner, you hear, you have your music that sets the tone. You have, you know, now people with all these Tesla and smart cars, people are running their videos and an autopilot. And give me an old motorcycle, anything. But at least with the car, you can stop and get out with the VR. If you stop and get out, you're still in your room. Yeah. Right. You know, so you're right. Give me a motorcycle and, you know, you're seeing your experience for what it actually is. Yeah. None of it's been manipulated. That river is not manipulated. That smell of that restaurant isn't manipulated. It's all an internal emotion to you. Yeah. And it's wonderful. You know, I think we need to be more in touch with that. Did you ever read The Catcher in the Rye? No, no. It's a good book. There's one scene, you don't have to read the book to get this story. There's this one scene where the book is about this kid who's processing the idea that he's having a hard time with growing up. And the idea is when people ask him what he wants to do, he's like, I want to be the catcher, the catcher in the rye. Essentially, this is big field. And he's imagining that these kids are running toward this cliff and he wants to be the one who catches everyone and keeps them from falling off the edge of this cliff. Everybody's safe now. Yeah, keep everyone safe. And there was one scene where he talks about it. Remember the old merry-go-rounds? The old merry-go-rounds used to have the reach for the gold ring. They would have that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they don't have that on many merry-go-rounds anymore. They got rid of the ring thing. People would reach and you go silver, silver, silver, and then boom, you get the gold, you win something. And so the kid was talking about how he was holding his sister and he's trying to keep her from falling off because he doesn't want her to fall and get hurt. The other day, I was with my daughter and we were riding a merry-go-round at the beach and it was much safer. There's no reaching for any rings. But I still found myself wanting to... To reach out. To hold her, you know, like hold her in place to keep her from falling off. And I was like... Oh, I see what you're saying. But then there was that, still I had to just, I had to take a deep breath and go, I'm just going to enjoy the ride. Because at the end of the day, we got to step back and take a breath and enjoy the ride now. Yeah. Part of that's being present. Yeah, well, no, it is. I get it. And your daughter was fine. Thank God. Though she does get herself into trouble quite often. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How old is she? She's just, she's five. She's almost six. So, yeah, it's good times, man. Well, brother, I appreciate this conversation. Great, yeah, it's been very nice. Everyone asks what type of questions I'm going to ask. I'm like, well, we literally go all over the place in this. I just kind of follow the flow, man. I've never asked. I hate when they go, here's a list of questions we're going to ask. I'm like, oh, I don't want to do that interview. This is not natural. Like, I think the best conversations are the ones that just unfold because we get to actually truly understand and to follow that beautiful flow of the universe, you know, is where the conversation goes and what needs to be said. Being in the moment.