Matt Groom 🎙️ and Alex Honnold 🧗 ¦ IFSC Lounge

So, Alex, welcome to the IFSC lounge. I just want to make it clear this is not my home. There's no mountains in the background. I'm on a beach on holiday. But Alex, where are you speaking to us from in the world? I'm calling in from my closet, my podcasting booth at home. I'm in Las Vegas. Now, is that is that the closet? Is that where you do all the media stuff? Yeah, this is where Climbing Gold comes from. This is where I record Planet Visionaries, this other podcast I host. This is where I do an awful lot of my work now. It's just sitting in my closet. I just want to say I'll be joining you on a Climbing Golds at some point in the future. Oh, cool. Yeah. Fitz has asked me to come and talk about Olympics and stuff. So that'll be great. You can finally explain to us how it all works. We'll be like, wait, so what are the rules? I've got to work it out myself at that point. I'll have to read into it. Alex, obviously you and me did the Salt Lake City competition. That was your first IFSC event from not watching it from behind the scenes. So I'd just love to know your overall opinions on the competition. What did you think of it? Oh, I was so into it. I found it all super inspiring. I was into the competitors. I enjoyed the commentating. Like, I just thought it was so fun. And I mean, because part of it for me was all the time surrounding the competition, because in between each round of competition, I went across the street to a different commercial gym and then just climbed in the gym. And I wound up seeing so many of the competitors and and so many of the para competitors who were going to be competing a couple of days later were over in the gym climbing. And it's just unusual for me to see so many elite climbers of all types climbing. You know, I don't know. I was just like, wow, this is this is cool. I was really into it. Were you in any way like starstruck is the wrong word, but obviously people see you as you know, you're one of the most well-known climbers in the world. And like you have a I mean, I was starstruck when I had to do commentating with you. But you sort of get that thing with climber. You're like, oh, my God, that's Natalia Grossman over there. You know, do you have that side of it? No, I wouldn't say I was starstruck at all, but I would say I was very impressed by the overall. I mean, I think that I I draw inspiration from high quality climbing the same as anybody else. And so seeing all the competitors. And I mean, I think for me, there were so many competitors that I'd never seen before, never heard of, didn't know anything about. And I was like, this is some random person who is so good. You know, and it just reminds you that there's this super high level of performance out there that I just don't even know anything about. You know, it's like and it's it was a good way for me to sort of get out of my own scene, you know, like because I have my friends that I climb with all the time. And then you realize that there's just this elite level that that I'm just not at all connected to. I was like, wow, that is cool to see. Yeah, it was it was amazing. And feeling that psych that you had for those athletes was really cool. And yeah, actually, so since since the Salt Lake competition for climbing gold, we've been interviewing a handful of the competitors leading up to the Olympics. And so the last couple of days I interviewed Sam Watson and we interviewed Emma Hunt yesterday. And it's been super fun to interview them, super fun to go deeper and learn a bit more about, you know, their their effort that goes into it. But I think it's been really helpful to have been at the Salt Lake World Cup just to see what it's all about before I interview them, because I have a much better sense now of what the competition is. You know, because when we were doing commentary, we were sitting in the back of this dingy warehouse. It's like leaking water. And then there are random people doing these insane speed warm ups and things like, you know, there's just some random woman just like running super fast through an empty warehouse. You know, it looks like a Rocky montage, like some training thing or something. And I was like, this is crazy. And so then once you see that, it makes it a lot easier to talk to the other speed climbers because you're like, oh, this is what they're living with. You know, like this is what all their peers are doing. Yeah. And one thing I really liked is the fact that because there tends to be this thing, especially with outdoor climbers to speed climbers, where it's kind of like, oh, it's not a proper sport. And it always kind of makes me very angry that because I see how much training they do. And to me, I don't understand this thing about climbing being a thing. It's kind of like this thing that we made up and then we decided these different types of it. And, you know, we're all doing this thing. So you don't obviously have that opinion. You don't see speed climbing as this bizarre sort of part of the sport. No, I I love speed climbing. And I kind of think the speed climbing is going to be the climbing at the Olympics. Like it's going to be what people what people care about. And actually, and I was talking to Sam Watson, interviewing him, and he's the world's fastest Olympian, you know, because speed climbing is the fastest event at the Olympics. I was like he could. I mean, if he won the Olympics, you know, with a four and a half second time, he could be on the cover of a weeds box or something, you know, like a straight up like national hero because he would be the fastest Olympian in the world. You're like, how cool is that? That's so cool. I feel he should do Sam Watson's marketing. You need to be his manager. Actually, well, no, I connected it with my agent. Because I was sort of like, you should talk to somebody, like you should at least like talk to someone because he's just like a random kid. Like if you're poised to be the fastest Olympian in the world, you should you should talk to an agent, just just have a conversation, you know. Yeah. And Sam is so cool. But I remember him saying to me a while back, he was like, Matt, whatever you want to do for media, he's like, I'm down with it, like whatever, any time. And obviously, I don't take the piss with that. But like he's so he really wants to push his sport and explain it to people who don't. Yeah, he was very well spoken. I was very impressed. I told him I was like, man, at his age, when I was 18, I couldn't even speak publicly at all, let alone articulately about things that matter. You know, yeah, I was I was super, super impressed. Yeah, he's amazing. Right. I wanted to start a bit at the beginning because there are people who are watching this who don't know why you're on this podcast. So first of all, I got asked a lot of questions. I still get asked a lot of questions about why you did Salt Lake City. So what is your plans for the Olympics as much as you can reveal at this stage? So honestly, I'm not actually sure what I'm supposed to be doing in the Olympics. I know that I have a contract to the OBS, the Olympic Broadcast Service, and they licensed other networks. But basically, I've just tried to make myself available to whoever is interested that I'm into the Olympics. I think climbing competition is cool. I'm psyched. I want to participate in whatever way I can be most useful. So I think right now the plan is maybe to be interviewing competitors and doing, you know, sort of like before and after interviews with with folks. But honestly, I will do whatever anybody asked me to do. And I think actually shut my door anyway. Sorry about that. I had an alarm going off in the back. No worries. I thought that was kind of a Greek party or something in the background. I was like, oh, you're so lucky. No, I wish I wish it's very quiet. OK, so you're going to be doing something for the Olympics. You're not entirely sure what. Basically, I'm willing to do anything anybody asked me to do for the Olympics because I love climbing. I I mean, I hate to say I enjoy, but like I don't mind being a spokesperson for the sort of, you know, to help relate climbing to the masses. I'm like, if for whatever reason I've become the guy like that guy that climbs, I'm like, I'm happy to talk about it because I mean, I love climbing. Yeah. And I'm sorry. Well, and I was like, and realistic, I'd love to get invited to L.A. twenty twenty eight because I live near here and my family, you know, my daughters would be old enough to go and they'd be so psyched. And I don't know, I'm kind of like, I just want to do a good job and get invited to L.A. Yeah, well, I think you will do a good job because you've got an awful lot of amazing comments from your commentary there. And you did say some stuff that has gone viral. And I thought it would be good to talk about some of it. I don't know if you've seen the Instagram post. Somebody somebody sent me a clip and I was like, oh, God, I'm getting canceled because when we're on live mics for a couple hours, I have no idea what we're talking about. We're just chitchatting. We're having a good time. I was like, oh, God, I mean, if you cut all this out of context, who knows? Who knows what we said? And they did. And that is on Instagram for anyone to watch. We should talk about Yannick Flowey being on the run from the police after his haircut. And then Orianne's coach came up to me just with his phone at the end, just being like, he called me Jason Statham. That's so cool. Oh, I forgot about that. OK, classic. Yeah, that was good. But I should call out some controversy because Orianne, Orianne Berton said that she was very annoyed that you wouldn't be because you said as a joke that she was no longer going to be your trad part. I presume you would take Orianne Berton up a treadmill at some point. Yeah, no, obviously I would take her track traffic. I would. Well, rather, she would take me track climbing. But I think that whole exchange, when you listen to it in context, just had to do with body position and lie backing and, you know, like how well somebody could like lie back up this corner, which looks like track climbing. But no, I'm I have no question that she's a much better track climber than I am. But, you know, in that moment, I was sort of like, oh, she's just not quite nailing the moves the way some of the other competitors were. I think she'll forgive you. I think you're all right. If I meet her in person in Paris, I'll apologize. But joking apart, like, do you think? Because for me, I look at someone like Yanya and, you know, whenever she has an off day, she goes outside and crushes everything. When these guys stop competing at some point, it is going to be interesting, isn't it, to see how they move into the outdoor world and what's going to happen because they're bringing all their experiences of dynamic moves and understanding of body work into outdoor climbing. Do you see sort of Olympic gold medalists pushing the limits of our sport? Or do you think it all sort of equals itself out when you're out? No, I I totally think so, though. Actually, I think that for a lot of disciplines of outdoor climbing, we're going to see the people who didn't quite qualify for the Olympics pushing the limits because it's like when you have the people who are the third best in their country who didn't quite make the team. But but realistically, on a different day, could have been Olympians like those are the people who then have something to prove and the talent to back it up, who go outside and they're like, well, check this out. Because, I mean, that's actually been one of the themes that we've sort of explored on and off through climbing gold through the podcast is the sort of the spectrum between adventure and athleticism, you know, because climbing used to be a purely adventurous sport where it's all about getting to the tops of mountains and you're like having these crazy, you know, quasi spiritual adventures outside. And now it's much more of an athletic sport. You know, you have Olympians who are, you know, basically like elite gymnasts who are full, like training indoors nonstop. But the thing is, is that when you have that high degree of athleticism, you're able to have outrageous adventures if you choose to. And so I think when people are either aged out of competition or they retire for whatever reason or they just don't quite make the team, but they're still hungry, they still have something to prove. They want to make a point. They're suddenly able to do things that nobody's ever done before. And I think that's where we're really going to see big jumps in the sport. Yeah, I would. I mean, someone like, for example, Simon Lorenzi is part of the Belgium squad. You know, he's done three nine a boulders, which is just insane. And he's not regularly making sort of finals. And you think that's true. He's like a mediocre competitor and he's like by far the best outdoor boulder in the world that you're kind of like, come on, that's crazy. It's fascinating. But the thing the thing where I really think that there's opportunity and this isn't encouraging anybody, but with the truly adventurous end of the spectrum, like soloing and speed climbing and big wall climbing and things like that, the physical level is relatively low. It's like way, way low compared to the competition level. And so all it takes is the right kid who doesn't quite make the Olympics or something, but routinely onsites 8C or 8C plus outdoors. You're kind of like, yeah, they could easily onsite solo, you know, 7D big walls and things like that have never been done before or like not really, you know, like barely. And, you know, somebody could easily make a huge mark like that if they want to do. And do you think the mental side is the same? Because, you know, in terms of being able to handle that pressure, especially on the Olympic stage and then taking that ability to control your own temperament outdoor soloing, like to me, there's an obvious link between those two. Yeah, I think there's a link. I don't think it's exactly the same, because I think that even if you're an incredibly seasoned competitor, you'd still be afraid for your life when you go outside and vice versa. You know, like I feel very confident outside. But if you put me in the bright lights in front of a ton of people, I'd feel tremendous pressure. And so I think that you could apply some of the same tools, you know, and like if you're really good at one thing, I think it'd be easier to get good at the other. But I think it would still take some practice to go back and forth. Because the other thing that went kind of viral was you saying that you were really scared when you were dropping into the corner on the boulder that we did on the climbing club show. Obviously, that was something you said in the moment. But, you know, you were genuinely nervous. And then you you skimmed your shin. You know, you hurt yourself. And so my shin, like I kind of wonder if I chip the bones. I still have a huge lump and it's still so sore. It's like, oh, I'm sorry. Still very tight. No, it's fine. I mean, that's the nature of. But but it made me appreciate that real competitors must get very good at falling, because if you're sliding off volumes all day, every day, you must get really good at that. And I just must be really bad at it because I slid off one volume and I cracked my shin so hard. And I should have pushed off a little bit. Yeah, we have no money to give you anyway. So please don't sue us for that. Don't worry. It was my own bodge. OK, that's good. I wanted to talk about money, actually. And I'm looking at my screen here because the other thing that we talked about, but I couldn't really answer in the moment was about athlete pay. And I've gone away and found that out because on a live stream, I didn't necessarily want to say the wrong thing. And also, it is tricky politically about what to say for that. So basically, just to let you know, it's and everyone who's watching who's interested, it's capped at currently it's capped at twelve thousand euros, which is split and six thousand that is split equally between the top eight and is a five percent increase every single year. And the reason it's capped is because it's up to the individual organizers who run World Cups to pay that prize money. So I think the idea is to stop a very rich organizer putting loads of money into it and then stopping an organizer who wanted to do a World Cup who doesn't necessarily have the funds to put in. Yeah, but I think practically that means some I think a competitor was explaining to me that it means that that sort of up and coming sort of countries can't buy all the best comps because if you put huge prize money at certain comps, then everybody would go, say, you know, compete in in whatever country. Let's say the Democratic Republic of Congo is like we are going to host the biggest World Cups. And, you know, if they do enough prize money, everyone's going to their comps and everyone's skipping the other comps. And then that provides a sort of asymmetry, sort of imbalance in the overall season, which I was like, I get that. I get that that maybe should be capped, though it's kind of too bad for the competitors because if it's not capped, then they could choose to comps, make a living and call it a season. Yeah, agree, agree. And I think there is an argument because, I mean, I do private comps quite often outside of the season, and that's something that regularly I get asked about because organizers are like, look, should we put prize money off or should we spend that money on inviting people? You know, it's tricky, but I think I think there is. If you put enough prize money at a comp, people will come. You know, it's like I mean, like if there's enough prize money, I mean, and that's true for every sport. I mean, if an event has enough prize money, the best climbers will come because it's worth it, you know? No, exactly. And I think the other defining factor with the IFSC is the fact that we don't run that many competitions. So let's say that we had a comp every week or every two weeks or something, then the sort of amount of income that that generate would help the prize money go up. But we're not quite there in terms of the size of the sport. But there is this understanding that we know it's not enough money. Like if you're a pro athlete and that's your living, it's not enough to get by on. So I thought it was a really good thing that you brought up, and it was an interesting discussion that came out of it. And it's interesting that you're talking. To be fair, I didn't know it was a political minefield when I asked. I was just kind of like, how do people make a living? I was just curious. I was like, oh, geez, oh, geez. I started sweating when you said that. I was like, this is a difficult one for me to answer. But how do you I wanted to kind of flip it, that question over to you, because obviously you're a climber who now makes, I presume, most of your income from climbing. But, you know, you look back 20, 30 years and that would have been unheard of. That, you know, our sport could make cash, might make money for people. And I just wanted to ask you what you thought about that, because it is a it is a it is a change in our sport from this thing where people used to just go and do. And it was this free thing into where athletes like yourself and others are actually earning a living from. I just wanted to know your sort of thoughts on it, really. Yeah, I think I think it's been a steady ramp over the entire time that I've been a climber. So I've been climbing almost 30 years. And I think you're right that 30 years ago, the quote unquote professional scene felt like it didn't exist. I mean, there were there were a handful of people getting paid money to rock on, but very few. And they were only getting paid by brands. It was a totally different sponsorship landscape. And then I think, you know, I've been a sponsored rock climber for 17 years, something like that. And in that time, it definitely has grown a ton. The athlete teams have grown. You know, there are more people making a living. There are more people getting paid. There's more money being paid. There are more brands putting money into the sport. There are way more commercial opportunities like the because I think as a professional rock climber, I mean, I think my situation is is probably, you know, it's different than than average. But but I think that one similarity is that I get, you know, maybe a third or half of my income from sponsorship, like from brands that support me. But then I get a fair amount from corporate speaking and sort of doing events and things like that. And then and then a fair amount just from like random one off media things like a TV show that I do or like a commercial or like something. And I think that a lot of those kinds of opportunities have really blossomed for all kinds of climbers, like even not the most high end, like elite, you know, well-known climbers. Like everybody has more opportunity now with random things like that. Like to do and especially with social media, you know, they're just so more more ways to, you know, to sell things basically. So like so even at the sort of lower tiers of sponsorship, you can still make some amount of money. I don't know. I mean, I think. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because just in the time that I've been a professional, I've also seen the whole social media landscape blossom with like now you can sort of be an influencer as opposed to a straight up professional. And I think that what's probably frustrating for a lot of the competitors is that they are the most elite climbers in the world and like they are the best climbers in the world by by measure of performance. And yet, you know, they're probably scraping by a lot of the time. And then they look at some influencer who climbs outdoors and tight leggings all the time or something. And they're kind of like, come on, like this person couldn't climb their way out of a box or something. They're like, like, how did they make a living rock climbing? And I don't even know I'm one of the best climbers in the world. You know, I mean, like I can understand it'd be super frustrating if you spent all your time training for competition and you're kind of like, should I just go trad climb succeed instead in the sun and beautiful conditions and just like look good and, you know, smile a lot and post videos about it? Like that seems a lot easier than training nonstop to go get my ass kicked at a World Cup. Yeah, I think one thing I've seen change is the fact that when I started in the climbing industry about eight years ago, the athletes often didn't understand that connection. And I think they've got a lot better at it. So I think athletes get that they to get the money. They now have to be a spokesperson. They have to sell gear. They have to, you know, be the amazing landscapes, you know, selling a lifestyle thing. And I think you're right that, yeah, nobody feels like nobody deserves anything, you know, like nobody gets paid because they're the best or like they're they're climbing the hardest grade. I mean, like nobody even totally cares about that kind of stuff. I mean, you're totally right. And now people realize that they're getting paid to do something, either that's represent a brand, sell a product, do do something, but they're not getting paid to climb the hardest grades. Like nobody is really, except for maybe Chris Sharma. He's the man. Yeah, he's got some to fall back on. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, there may be like three or four people in the world who are getting paid just to go climb, but but basically not really. Yeah, because I guess it's like it's hard to understand it. And the great thing about putting you on one of those boulders was that you're relatable to people. They see what you've done and they're like, oh, wow, Alex is struggling on this boulder because it's hard on TV when you look at an athlete do a move because you've got such ginormous holds. It's like, why don't they just, you know, use it? It's very hard to understand how bad the holds are. Yeah. Like and the friction, right? Like just the way that holds feel is terrible. Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. What wasn't I telling you that that I feel like the next step for the Olympics is to put the lay person in the pool next to all the swimmers or like to put the normal person on the track next to the runners and and just get a sense of how fast people are. Yeah, I think you put it like an average athletic person, you know, because. Yeah, wasn't I joking with you about this? I don't remember. Maybe not. I just feel like so. Like if you put me on the on the blocks, like on the on the swimming in the pool, like, yeah, I would look like a lot of the elite swimmers, probably, you know, kind of like rangy, like similar build. You're like, OK, like that guy could be a swimmer. And then I like jump into the pool at the same time as them. And then I'm like, oh, oh, you know, like dog paddling frantically. And they're like done with the race already. And you'd be like, wow. Like, turns out elite swimmers are really, really good at swimming. Yeah. I feel like we should put you on a speedball next time. You can have a go at that one. Yeah, that one. I've been interviewing speed climbers and thinking about a lot. And I would love to try it a few more times. So I at least knew the sequence. Like, I don't think I could ever really do it fast because I'm so undynamic. But it'd be interesting to at least know how to do it correctly. Yeah. In terms of like training and all of that, the sort of obsession that comp climbers have, you know, to, you know, to getting everything perfect. Do you relate to that in the type of training that you do that sort of, you know, every climber wants to be better, stronger? You know, it's it's could you look at what they do and think, oh, wow. You know, that's kind of what I do, but on a different level. Or is it just bizarre to you in terms of athleticism, what they do compared to your training to do what you do? No, no. I think it's all. Yeah, it's all exactly the same. I mean, they're doing maybe slightly different exercises and higher intensities. And for longer amounts of time, you know, I'm like taking care of two babies and doing podcasts with you and doing whatever. But, you know, they're just like stretching and training and stretching some more and then training some more. You know, so it's different, different lifestyle. But no, I think it's exactly the same kind of path. And I totally relate to that. Now, it's interesting. And in terms of indoor climbing to outdoor climbing, because it's something you said to me on the on the on the live stream or afterwards, the fact that you do climb in gyms a lot. And I was surprised by that, because I think I have this image of you just when you have a training session, you pop out and solo 15 routes and that's your training. But you're in the gym on a fairly regular basis. Is that correct? I mean, I'm in the gym a lot now. I mean, you know, I travel a lot for work, not not a ton. But when I travel for work, I always go to the gym. So I just drop into like random small town gyms and random parts of the country. I mean, and also I've just been climbing. I have my own little home garage gym and I've been climbing in my own garage a lot just because it's so convenient with the family. And so I just spent a week climbing in Yosemite by myself with no family, which is kind of my first like solo climbing trip in a while. I was like, oh, I've got my week in Yosemite. And and other than that, I don't know. The last time I climbed outside, you know, like around home or anything, I've just been training in the garage and then I had my week in Yosemite. And it's and that's but that's also partially because, you know, we have two very small kids right now. My wife, I don't know, just like got injured and I can't lift one of the either baby like basically hasn't like we you know, like real life is getting in the way a little bit, but you're kind of like, yeah, I mean, I climb I climb on plastic a lot. And it's good, isn't it? Because I I want for me, like I started outdoor climbing and I want I always see indoor climbing as like a gateway into outdoor climbing. But something I've noticed in the last is that you get you get people in gyms who like they boulder 8a in gyms, but they've never touched rock. And it's almost like a separate sport. It's like there's indoor and there's outdoor. Dude, I talked to I interviewed Emma Hunt yesterday for a climbing gold podcast, and she said she's never lead climbed outside. And I was like, dude, you're an Olympian and you've never lead climbed outside. And she was like, oh, my whole family likes to boulder and we boulder. And it's true that she lives in the southeast and there's better bouldering, you know, more readily available. But still, I was like, you've never tied into a rope outdoors. That's crazy. It's bad. And yeah, and it's something that has changed, I think anyway, because and I I see it as a positive because I do almost see it as different sports. Like you should be able to be amazing indoors and have a sort of a sporting side to that because the outdoor can be inaccessible to some people. You know, if you don't know the right people or someone to take you under their wing and show you things, you know, it's it's a hard if you just live live too far away. Yeah, that's. But I mean, I think, though, that for some people, the outdoors is a gateway to indoor. I mean, some people like try climbing outdoors once. They're like, that's cool. And then they just go to a gym. The gym's more convenient. They have a job. They have a family. They have whatever. And they just wind up gym climbing. I'm like, I think that's great. I mean, I think that it's a it should be a revolving door between either. You know, they have very similar skills, very, you know, it's like the same thing. It's just whatever is easier for you to do. Yeah, no, I agree. OK, so in terms of like your sort of future within this scene, because a lot of people have been asking when we can get you back and when you're coming on, we don't have you on any kind of a retainer. But obviously, I just want to extend an invitation unofficially because there's no one listening to tell me whenever you want to come back, please come back. But this isn't something you'll be doing regularly, right? Necessarily. No, no, I don't think so, though. Honestly, you know, I don't know. I feel like you should you should send the whole World Cup schedule for the year to my team, like basically the people that manage my calendar. And and then anytime something lines up travel wise, because, yeah, realistically, I'm not going to travel away from the fam for an unpaid thing just so I can make fun of competitors for a couple hours. You know, it's like it's just not like that's just not I don't know, that's not fair to my family. It's just not the way. But on the other hand, I really like doing it and it's fun and it's cool. And I find it quite inspiring. And so I think if there's ever a time that aligns up nicely where I'm like, oh, I'm in the place anyway, or it's like, you know, adjacent to something else that I'm doing or, you know, I would totally drop in and do stuff like that again. I thought it was really fun. OK, that's going to make the YouTube is YouTube commenters happy. There are an awful lot of people asking about that. Yeah. No, presumably, if I do it more in the future, I'll I'll polish it up a little bit and maybe people won't like the slightly more refined approach as much. I don't think you should at all. I think it was great. Well, you have to do a little bit. I mean, the but like being a total Gumby is like charming the first time. But if you're totally clueless like the fifth time, it's it's slightly less less fun, you know, like that guy's just bad. You were saying stuff that I was like, if I say that, I would get murdered in the comments. But you could and it was great in a way because you could bring stuff up and then people talked about which is which is amazing. Yeah, exactly. But there are a lot of things like I'm asking questions that once I know the answer to, I'm sort of like, oh, I can't really ask that again. You know, it's like it's just not. Tell me about the last Olympics, because I've been told by the voice of my ear slash my phone. You were in Tokyo, right? No, I wasn't in Tokyo. I was I had the same sort of imitation through the OBS, the Olympic Broadcast Service. But then because it was covid, they basically canceled press passes for everybody. So I didn't go because I wasn't a coach or competitor, which totally understandable. So I wound up doing interviews with a bunch of the competitors. But it was all for like social media at a weird time. You know, it's like the middle of the night. You're interviewing somebody through your phone. It all felt sort of weird and a little bit silly. But yeah, I suspect that Paris will be a lot cooler. Yeah. And it's I mean, it's going to be is going to be a step up. And also we're into L.A. And as you said, you know, that's the one you want to do. But in terms of the way because the sport changed from from Tokyo, so we used to have speed involved in it. So it used to be the three way thing. And now it's a two way thing. And I think the plan is to hopefully maybe have medals for every single discipline. Does that make sense to you? I don't know. Have you watched any of the combined format when there's bolder and lead together? Yeah. Bolden. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I've watched some of the qualifiers and then the world championships and stuff. Didn't they do the combined format? I actually I kind of think that the ideal thing to me for the Olympics would be for medals where you have each discipline individually and then a combined format, because I like the all three together as the world's best climber kind of thing. You know, I mean, I understood why the competitors all complained about it in Tokyo, because it's it's annoying to be forced to train something that you don't like to do. You know, whichever discipline isn't your preferred. You know, you don't want to be forced to train it. But I do think the combined format is cool. Like having all three together, you do find a very well-rounded good climber. Yeah, I would agree with you. And something I found fascinating is that what people did enjoy in terms of the athletes is the fact that they got to try out someone else's sport and some of them never attempted speed. And they're all saying, you know, this is hard. Like what they do is difficult. And there was this respect gained between everyone that I really liked to see. Well, and I mean, like some of the standard beta for speed climbing now is like the Tomoa Skip. And you're sort of like, oh, well, Tomoa only pioneered new beta on the speed route because he was an elite boulder being forced to speed climb. And so it just makes you think that if there's a little more crossover like that, you wind up with interesting breakthroughs here and there. Yeah. And especially with the, you know, the moment we have boulder and lead together, which I really is a format I enjoy because it's always interesting. You know, we have two zones instead of one zone that keeps people climbing for longer on the boulders, and I do like it. But like, do you think there is specialisms in the sport anymore? Because, you know, we used to have like boulders, lead climbers and speed climbers. And now the boulders and the lead climbers are very similar. But in your outdoor world as well, you know, we know you for solos. But you go bouldering, you go lead climbing. You have aspects of the sport. You do everything. Yeah, but I'm a terrible boulder. I'm like a mediocre sport climber. I mean, no, I think there is still specialization. I mean, I see what you're getting at, that there's tons of crossover within the competitive space. But even still, the world's best speed climber can't even touch the leaders, you know, at World Cup or the boulders, really. And so, yes, there's crossover. But if you're the best in one of the disciplines, you're probably not the best in the other ones. And so I think there's still specialization. Yeah, especially I mean, yes, you're right between speed, especially like that. And that was the bad things about, you know, Tokyo is the fact that, yeah, this looks. Well, we'll take back to the combined format, though. I do suspect that some of the the training techniques that go into training speed climbing would be quite useful for bouldering. And and so I wouldn't be surprised if people had to train speed if they wound up employing some of the techniques to improve their bouldering, you know, because there's a ton of crossover in terms of dynamicism and sort of explosive strength. And so, I don't know, I just think there's there's stuff to be learned between all the disciplines. But I think that the specialization will probably increase. Yeah, no, I would agree. It's really interesting hearing you. I had no idea you were this interested in this kind of world. And there was something you said when you were trying the boulders, you looked out at the at the stadium and there was quite a few people watching you climb. And you said you sort of slightly felt the pressure of that. You didn't like people watching. That interested me because so many people watch you climb. So no, people watch TV. The thing is that like I've been filmed doing a lot of things. But when I'm being filmed, it's just me and one of my friends, you know, some close friend hanging on a rope next to me. That's really different than having a thousand people you don't know watching you. And yes, eventually, you know, millions of people might see it on television or whatever. But I don't see that. I don't see those people like I don't know about that. That happens a year later. I don't even care about that anymore. At that point, I've forgotten the whole experience because it's so much, you know, so far down the road. And so in terms of lived experience, it's wildly different. Huh. That's so interesting. You say that because, yeah, I just presumed that you wouldn't feel it like it would just be waters off ducks back, you know, you just get on with it. But I'm sure I could. I mean, if I was actually competing, I'm sure I would employ the same techniques as the competitors. I'd get over it. I would I would tune out the crowd or I would learn to harness it and be like, you know, use that to boost my energy or whatever. You know, but it's just that I never have to deal with that, really. Well, actually, no, that's not true. I do a fair amount of corporate speaking, like public stuff where you suddenly are on a stage in front of a thousand people talking about, you know, preparing for rock climbing and things like that. And that all feels pretty easy for me now, like relatively comfortable. Now that I've had a ton of practice with it. But let's say that you're Red Rocks or something, you're bouldering and there's obviously people watching because it's you. Do you feel that pressure to sort of succeed at something? I hate that. I hate that. Especially because it's always people watching me doing something that I'm terrible at, you know, because I'm bouldering in Red Rock. Realistically, I'm in the bottom of the pack of all the random people at the boulders that day. I'm sort of like, but everybody expects you to be the best because they're sort of like, oh, you know, like that guy is really well known. He must be so good. And you're like, no, I'm terrible at this kind of thing. So then it feels slightly embarrassing. And you're like, ah, yeah, no, I definitely feel that. I mean, especially in gyms, like when I climb in commercial gyms, people generally watch, like assuming that you're going to that they're going to witness greatness. And you're like, yeah, you're going to witness goodness. You know, like, yeah, I'm a good gym climber, but I'm definitely not a great gym climber. So it's like you're not going to witness anything that's like legendary. You're just going to be like, oh, that guy's a really good gym climber. It's sort of like, oh, it's always a little bit embarrassing. Do you think you'd ever have a another angle at coaching? Because I know, you know, the physical aspect is different. But in terms of like that preparation, you know, could you ever see yourself taking a young athlete under your wing and being like, you know what? I'm going to look after that mental side of things and help you through this stuff with that interest? I don't know if I would. I don't know if I'd be actually good enough at it to to really help somebody. I mean, if anyone ever asked, I mean, you know, I'm happy to talk to anybody about anything and just like help. But I don't think I'd ever be a real coach. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think there's enough there to really, really help somebody. I don't know. We'll see. Maybe I will say that it's just in the last year or two that I feel like that I'm starting to spend more time climbing with younger climbers and like chatting with younger climbers more and occasionally and even just like beta for like, where should you go this time of year and like, what could you climb and what's a good project? And like, what's the good strategy to try that project? You know, like what's the sunshade that time of year? Like, can you even do that or will it be too hot? Things like that. Yeah, I do enjoy, you know, like when you spend 20 years learning a bunch of stuff, you're kind of like, oh, it is nice to share it a little bit. It's like may as well save somebody else a bunch of hassle by by just giving them a little info. No, agreed. Well, I know people cannot wait to see to see to see that next Olympics and see what you bring to that in terms of being that role. Just briefly talk to me about that whole weekend when you were there, because you did the commentating with me, but outside of it, you said you went to the commercial gyms. But what were you doing in Salt Lake City generally? You know, did you wander around isolation? Did you have a look at the boulders? Because I didn't really see much of you apart from in that booth. So what did you spend your time doing apart from that? It's just I mean, friggin surviving. I don't know. I mean, we oh, I filmed a couple of things for the OBS. So I was also doing other filming, which I guess was separate than the the commentating with you. But it still felt like the same thing to me because it's still like talking about the competitors, talking about the competition. So we film that stuff in the commercial gym. I did a couple of gym sessions. I mean, I was in Salt Lake just for that competition, but it was tacked on to the end of a sort of work travel sequence I was doing. So I attended a fundraiser for my foundation in Boulder, which is like a 45 minute flight away. And so it's kind of on the way home. Perfect timing is all kind of like, you know, this is this like lines up well with the stint of travel that I'm already doing. So that's that's why I came through Salt Lake. But yeah, I basically was just all in on the comp the whole day. I mean, I stayed in that hotel above the commercial gym. So I was like, literally my room is like above the boulders. And I like woke up. I came down to the commentary with you. We like film some stuff. I bouldered. I did more commentary. I chatted and then I flew home. You know? Yeah. I mean, because also like on Sunday night, the the women's finals night, I dipped out like 10 minutes before the end of the women's finals. And, you know, I was home an hour later. So like by the time they finished the podium, I was like back in my house. No, it's you know, it's pretty chill. That's very good. And at one point you left. I can't remember when it was, but you left to go out and watch it for a bit. So you were in the sort of near the crowd for people who haven't been to a World Cup. What's that like? Because it is special, isn't it? Feeling that way, way better is so cool. The energy of the crowd was amazing. The I mean, that was one of my big takeaways from the weekend was that being there in person, the walls felt way bigger, looked way taller. The problems are way longer. You know, like watching on a screen, you're kind of like, oh, they jump from hole to hole. But then when you see it, you're like they're jumping six feet from, you know, it's like two meters in between each hole. You're kind of like they're covering the covering like six meters over the course of the problem. And you're like, dude, these are really, really long and big problems. It's like kind of crazy. And so seeing it in person just gave me a much greater respect for for everything that was going on. I was like, this is crazy. And that atmosphere, isn't it? Like when they sort of like to me, it's that I love it when an athlete takes their time with it, you know, when they top a boulder and they come down and they turn to the audience, they really, I don't know, just take it all in and suck in that atmosphere. I think that's such a special moment. I think one of my favorite experiences in climbing personally is when I stick something that I didn't think I could stick. You know, like when you sort of exceed your own expectations, when you're like, sure, you're falling off, but you throw for a hold and you stick it, you're like, I'm still on and you keep fighting. And it's amazing. And I think that in competition, you see so many of those moments, except that when they happen, the whole crowd starts screaming. And so it's like, you know, the best moments in climbing, but celebrated by tons and tons of people who are who are celebrating the same thing. It's like it's pretty cool to see the competitors. You know, you can see that they surprise themselves from time to time. You know, it's like a lot of competitors are like, oh, I'm just going to try something and then it works. And they're like, oh, my God, it works. You know, and then the crowd goes insane. And you're like, that's so cool. Like who knew that people could do that? Yeah, I would agree with you. It's it's and it's great having. And I think this is the thing I loved about having you is because when I get an athlete into the commentary box, you know, they've done it. They they compete on a regular basis. They've have a commentator with me. But you were like this wide eyed person who was just taking everything in. And like, you could see that was a total Gumby. Yeah, it's rare that you get a total Gumby who actually does know a lot about rock climbing. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And it would usually be people would be very angry at that. But I just I fed off it because I was kind of like, yes, like this is how cool our sport is. And like, yeah, everyone knows. Yeah, it's sick, isn't it? I mean, even even like just the solid calm that we were watching. I mean, a few of the moves stand out to me, like that Japanese guy jumping back and forth on the parkour boulder like ten times. And then the other guy, like catching the one legged squat on the crazy volume, you know, like jumping in like stick. Yeah, I was like, I bet he's still in some kind of like knee splint or something. You know, it's like a bunch of moves like that where you're just like, God, it's like who knew that somebody could do that? It's so impressive. So do you still. So when you look at that kind of stuff, are you like, whoa, there's like this rock climb that could be have this like jump back and forth thing? Like we kind of talked about it a bit, but there is potential, isn't there, to take that kind of learning into the outdoor world and use those things to put new stuff up? Totally. And I think that's been very untapped so far. But but then the thing is, is that when you go outdoors and you start to think about like running and jumping, you're like, oh, my God, I'm going to die. You know, it's so dangerous or it's or it's so hard to control in a relatively safe way. You know, like you're talking your belayer, you're like, OK, feed out four and a half meters of slack and then give me a really soft catch and make sure I don't you know, you're like, oh, it's pretty scary. But yeah, I think there's maybe actually Tommy and I did a did a free route on our cap. The heart route is I think we did the third or fourth ascent or something last last season in the fall. And it has this sort of like eight foot down dino where you're like jumping below the level of your feet and probably like more than two meters away. It's like really far. This is crazy. It's like classic El Cap climbing where the holes just run out. You just have to like fly over to this other hole. And it's totally like, well, it wouldn't be allowed in the World Cup because it's a down dino. But it's like exactly like what you do in World Cups. And we were like, man, my first time. But you're on the side of El Cap. You know, you're like like 100 meters off the ground and a little more. It's like pitch five or six or something. But but my first goes, I was like too scared to even try to move basically because you're just like jumping off the cliff. There's like no way you're going to catch the hole. But then after you practice a handful of times, you're like, no, OK. And it's kind of like volume climbing. You have to like stomp the landing with your feet and then catch the jug. Otherwise it like rakes, you know, your hands rake off it. Anyway, eventually we did it and it was it's a really freaking cool move. But it's like exactly the kind of thing that you learn how to do in the gym. And then you take to the to bigger clubs. Yeah, no, it's and it's all to do with route setting as well. You know, that's such a massive part of it is setters coming up with these crazy ideas and because, you know, on rock, you're limited by the features. You know, you had to do that. I know that the holds ran out, but the setters are putting stuff up because they want to do it or there. But also you see the opposite of their sadist. Yes, because they say this exactly. You know, some are saying I'm about the no texture holds. How because there was a lot of people saying, oh, we hate it. And some people were like, well, I'm going to say like if you get a crag and it's super polished, it's a similar kind of skill base. And I hadn't thought about that before. It's not really a question. I just I just I would say I'm I don't have a strong opinion either way, I don't think, because on the other hand, also for the competitors, at least it doesn't hurt your skin, you know, so you can try really hard for a long time and like your skin's fine. And so I don't know. But I one of my other takeaways from the conference, I like that was seeing how physically wrecked the setters looked at the end of the weekend. The setters looked like the shells of humans, you know, just completely destroyed and seeing the pressure under which they work to strip the boulders, reset the boulders, fine tune the boulders. You know, they only have a couple hours and then the comp is starting. And, you know, it's like they better get it right in a couple hours. I was like, man, that's pretty high pressure and pretty hard. It was. And it's interesting you say that because I did the the OQS series for for the guys you're working for, for the Olympic Channel. And they were messages speaking in my ears and they were saying that they didn't think there was any other sport where the athletes at the beginning work together to work a problem out. And I think for climbers, we take that as granted. But for people watching the sport is really bizarre, you know, to watch competitors discuss how to do something. That's true. Yeah. Because there's not many. I mean, well, don't you think like Formula One or something? They probably all go over the track together and they probably talk about it. I mean, I think within teammates, maybe. But I doubt like, you know, not the opposing drivers. I'm sure they have those conversations, but also the tracks the same. Right. So like, although they put a couple in every year or maybe take some away, they generally know what they're getting into. Whereas climbing is unique to every single time they compete. But I hadn't thought about that. Maybe like dressage, you know, the horse jumping stuff that changes. That's the only one I could think of that's that's like that. Yeah, I don't like that. That's not that's that's not even a sport. Like, come on. Hey, I don't want to upset those people. We've got a lot of money. They'll be very angry. I don't mind. I don't mind throwing some bombs and like that. It's not you can do that. You can compare to Olympic climbing. You're like, come on. You're dressing up your horse. Exactly. The horse does much of the work. I mean, it's ridiculous. Yeah. Alex, I know we're running out of time, so I just wanted to say I think we're done for me. Yeah. And thank you so much. It was it was a lot of fun. And it was it's really nice to catch up with you now to sort of debrief because you had to leave before the end. So I didn't really say goodbye to you. So it's interesting hearing those thoughts that you had. No, I'd say the whole experience for me was was far better than I than I would have hoped. You know, I was just kind of like, oh, I'm going to go do this thing. But then I went. Actually, I told my wife this when I got home, that it was one of the rare, you know, quote unquote work events that I do that I find really energizing where I come home, like feeling fired up and like ready to train and like psyched because in general, I don't really love public. You know, I'm I'm an introvert by nature. Like I don't love public facing things as a as a role. And so typically if I'm doing public events, I come home and I'm like, oh, I'm kind of beat. And I want to like go do my own thing for a bit to sort of recover. But coming home from the comp, I was like, oh, I'm ready to train. I'm like fired up. I thought it was so cool. So I was like, oh, it's a nice. Yeah, I don't know. I'd never done anything quite like that in the climbing space. I was like, this is cool. I mean, and that's despite having I mean, I must have taken like a thousand selfies at the gym across the street. You know, I mean, it's like it was I mean, I was just like amongst it for the whole it was like crazy. And yet I still came out of that feeling fired up and like psyched and excited about it because I think the level of competition was so high and just seeing what everybody else is doing and just seeing the effort that the organizers put into the comp, like just seeing the whole event. I was like, this is so inspiring. It's so cool. Yeah, it was. I hope you've got a slab set up in your home gym that you can get some redemption on. Really, I just need to practice my falls like cheese. But anyway, hey, we're all over 30 here. It's difficult. It's a hard, hard thing to get. No, it's a pleasure chatting in. And honestly, we should try to look at the schedules a bit because if it ever lined up, I would totally do do another guest spot. You know, I mean, I do think it's super fun and it's really inspiring to see in person, but it just has to be the right place, the right time. You know, it all has to play out. That's fair enough. Well, we'd love to have you. So maybe maybe we can look at Salt Lake next year. We'll have a conversation. All right. Yeah. Nice. Well, thank you so much. And good luck with the Olympics. Hope it goes well. And yeah, thank you for joining us. I'll see you there now. Yes, I'll see you there. We'll have a drink. Yeah, cool. Perfect. Yeah, I'll see you this summer then. All right. Cheers. Thanks, Michael. See you later.