Hugh Jackman & Willem Dafoe | Actors on Actors - Full Conversation

The Florida Project. Amazing. How did that come to you? How did you find out about it? It came pretty traditionally in the respect that I knew Sean was still looking for an actor for this one role. He had cast pretty much the rest of the movie. And I heard that. I admired Tangerine, which is his previous film. He's made others, but that was the only one I know. And I admired it. And I said, let me see a script. I'd love to work with this guy. And the script was beautiful. And I met with him and I was very taken with how he talked about how he was going to shoot the movie. The fact that he really mixes existing things with the fiction that he creates. And also on traditional casting as well. In this respect, we're shooting in an operational motel. I play the manager of a motel. And the story that we're telling is pretty much about that motel. Some people are living there. Yes. And we're hanging out with them and they're helping us make the movie. And what it does is it really guides you because you get to know those people. And the thing that I just couldn't get over is you realize, I mean, it's a kind of a pattern for me and nice movies where you have this life experience that changes your idea about things or gives you a different perspective. And you use that new knowledge or that new love to apply to the imagination. So we could inhabit that world with not only a kind of a confidence, but also with a certain amount of care. Those people became us. So that's beautiful when that happens. And were they just encouraged, it's fine to walk in back of the shot if there's something, if they were going and going. They helped us sometimes as extras and that sort of thing. But it was more about, they were around and they were supporting us. And we saw how they lived. So you didn't have this kind of distant idea about these people that were struggling. You knew the particulars and you identified with them. So it was easier to inhabit those characters because you had such concrete models. Kids, were there a lot of kids there? There were a lot of kids because there are a lot of single mothers there. Set up for people that haven't seen the movie is, it's a world that I didn't know exists. There's a strip of motels right outside of where all the amusement parks are in central Florida, most notably Disney. And they are cheap tourist motels that a lot of people live at long-term temporarily. Basically, they're people without a home. And it's a tough life. And something about that setup becomes kind of a microcosm for a community. And you see, I don't know, it's very much a story about how we do and don't help each other and what our responsibility is to each other socially. When your friend puts you in charge of her kid, that kid becomes your responsibility. You ain't taking responsibility. And you got that one too. She's from Futureland, right? Oh, whatevs. You gotta relax. Gonna redo my expense reports with your whatevs? What was the deal with the helicopter? Was the helicopter like... The helicopter was a given. That's like... That was just there, what, taking people to the parks and back? Yep. And it was a low-budget movie. So I think initially they intended to pay them off to stop. You know, the last thing you want when you're shooting a movie is aircraft going up and down. But we didn't have enough money to pay them off. It's too profitable for them. So we just accepted it. That became part of the landscape. It worked so well. Those little details are really what give the film not only a realism, but a vitality. But the shot where you're leaving one of the rooms, I can't remember, and the helicopter's going off in the reflection, that's just happenstance. That's it. And you, Logan, it's a long run for this Wolverine character. 17 years, crazy, right? I can understand why Logan happened, but how does it feel to leave it? Tell me a little bit about the run of that character. It was a huge shock for me. I was playing Curly in the musical Oklahoma at the Royal National Theatre when I did the audition. I literally... My audition was in central London in Soho, and I had to do it in between the matinee and the evening show. And it's like a long show. I whipped off the leather chaps and I ran into Soho, and I did... I have a perm in my hair, and I did the audition, and I put a cap on because I had this ridiculous perm because I was playing Curly. And the casting director said, take the hat off, take the hat off after the first take. And I took the hat off. She goes, put the hat back on. And I remember I got a call back. It surprised me. I got a call back and they said, listen, great. Perhaps you could lose the Southern cowboy accent and maybe lose the perm. But I said, well, I can't lose the perm, but I'll do my best for the accent. And then I had about nine auditions. Wow. Finally got the part, I think, nine months later. It was a very long... I just presumed it was never going to happen. Did they ever make you take your shirt off? In the audition, no. In the movie, pretty much every scene. I'm going to count three, and you're going to start walking away. Yeah, right through this one. One. I have a lawyer now. Two. You all right, boss? I had no idea. I remember finishing the first movie. And a mate of mine who was in Hollywood, who was a player in Hollywood, he goes, dude, I've heard not very good things about the movie. You really should book something else before it comes out. So there was about a four-month gap. He goes, just make sure you got something else, because when it comes out, you're back down the bottom of the pile again. Happily, he was wrong. But I mean, no one really knew. There was no comic book genre. Comic book movies were really not around at the time. What year is that? 2000, when it came out. Yeah, that's very close to Spider-Man. Spider-Man came out two years later. And Kevin Feige was the assistant to the producer on the movie. And I remember going into his office, and it was literally like walking into a comic store. There was action figures and posters and comic books everywhere. And he was right into it. Of course, now he's running Marvel. I had no idea it would be 17 years. And then I think with this one, honestly, what happened was I had a dinner with Jerry Seinfeld, who's a friend of mine. I was asking him about the end of the series. I said, how did you decide? And long story, he kind of said, look, I've always believed creatively you should never spend everything creatively, because it's almost Herculean to start up again. You should always have something in the tank. Leave the party before it gets too late kind of theory. And then somehow it spurs you into the next thing. And as he was talking, I went home and I said to Deb, on my way home in a cab, I said, this is the last one. She goes, what? And I said, I just know this is the last one. And I woke up the next morning with this very strong idea, which Jim Mangle and I've been working on, of treating it not like a comic book movie in any way, treating him not like a superhero, but as a human being, who's lived a life of violence. And let's make a movie about the ramifications of violence. And I was thinking The Wrestler. I was thinking Unforgiven, that kind of thing. And the moment I'd had that thought, I was super charged, super excited. Absolutely sure I wouldn't play it again. And very nervous, because it's 17 years. I mean, you're a theatre man like me. It's like at the end of a long run, you really want your last show to be the best. Well, you don't want to finish on a bad note. And it wasn't until I saw the premiere in Berlin, and literally at the end, I cried. And it was gratitude to Jim Mangle, who pulled off something I'll forever be in debt to him. 17-year journey, and also just actually seeing on screen what I'd held in my head and heart as a possibility for the character. That's a beautiful story. Incredible kids in our film. You have a number of incredible kids. And the girl in yours? Daphne Keane. Both her parents are in the business, mainly in theatre. Will's father's an English actor and director. He's worked a lot of The Royal Court and The Globe. And he's in The Crown, that series, The Crown. He works a lot. And her mom, Maria, is a Spanish actress and director who does a lot of theatre as well as film. And they are amazing. They're theatre folk. So there's no sense of having an on-set kid with pushy stage experience. They really understand the process. And Jim came up with the idea of having this third element, making a movie about family, that the thing that terrifies Logan the most is love, actually, and intimacy, and the ramifications of what that is, the pain it can bring. And so having this sort of unwanted daughter, the ailing father, was key. But I said, Jim, I love the idea of it. I don't think we're going to find something. Like, I think we're putting, you're backing yourself into a corner here because you have to believe that this 11-year-old girl has the ferocity and sort of DNA of violence within. You found her. Right, I found her. She's scarier than you are. Unbelievable. The stillness, the ferocity. I mean, honestly, when we did the... And the violence. I had bruises on my arm after the rehearsal. But she is an amazing young girl. And her performance is astonishing to me. As when I watched yours. It's been a long time since I've seen a movie with that sense of freedom amongst the kids. That sense of play, the range emotionally is incredible. How did Sean find... Sean is fantastic with making those kids feel comfortable. I mean, Brooklyn in particular has real skills. She has really strong instincts and she's precociously... You know, she's smart. She's clever. She can invent things. Right. The other kids... It was very key for Sean to make them feel like they were playing, give them things that they like to do. So he gave them really a long leash. And because he worked with non-traditional casting, there were a lot of people, the majority of the people had never made a movie before, as far as the cast, which was fantastic for me. Because it was like they didn't have anything to compare it to. And they were all turned on. It was like the beauty of beginners without any anxiety. And Sean set them up so beautiful that these kids played. So they were children and they were inventive like children. They could be chaotic like children. What was his process? Did he let the camera roll a long time? Did he let them... You know, a combination. There was a strong script. Not a lot of text, but very clear actions. And then sometimes he'd just tell them to put in their own words. He'd make them very comfortable and make them kind of forget the camera. And it was a very kind of warm atmosphere. So these kids didn't stress. They didn't think about making a movie. They didn't think about careers. They didn't think about being an actor. You know, they were just having fun with their friends. It looked like that. Yeah. And then some very emotional scenes as well. Yes. Beautiful things. And I think those were done, you know, once everyone felt close, you know, there was a real stake there. Yeah, right. And it was fun for me because what I was doing in the movie was paralleled by where I was positioned in the movie. I respect that. Like the kids, sometimes I had to wrangle them. And I love these kids, but they were also, of course, out of control sometimes. And it was like frustrating. So that was absolutely the food for the character of Bobby, you know, because as the hotel manager, I have to wear lots of hats and I have to deal with different people in different ways. So it's one of those beautiful things where you create a working situation that informs or feeds the actual fiction of the movie. Right. But what I loved and what I could see also was a very fine line for your character, Bobby, and you as an actor playing about feeling for these characters. I got such, there was empathy. At the same time, I'm not going to get too close. The feeling of this character who's seen many, many people come through is sort of attached, but not attached. That line that you play is so beautiful. So I thought that was really astonishing. Thank you. I mean, it's all there. I was there to receive it. I mean, the setup was beautiful. And the fact that this is the thing that I really liked about this character, and I didn't know it until I actually played it was, you know, he's a simple guy. He's not an extraordinary person. He really wants peace. He just wants to watch the ball game. He's had some trouble in his life, but he wants a certain kind of peace. And he realizes that his sense of well-being is dependent on the people in the motels and the motels is dependent on him. So he takes a kind of responsibility, not in a big moral stance, just as a natural thing. And it's kind of beautiful to see that expressed, that like a working class guy with his own challenges can, you know, extend himself to other people when he's, you know, it's a lot for him. Aren't you going to drink it now? Yes, yes. We both started out in the theater. Yeah. And you've got a strong, I'm very jealous because you have a very strong musical theater background. Right, yeah. Which, you know, I love that. Which surprised the hell out of me, by the way. Pardon? It surprised me. What? I was an actor at my drama school, there was an acting school and a musical theater school, and I was in the acting school. And I could, for the actors, I could sing. But all the music, literally all of the graduates were better than me. And I got straight out of drama school. I did a TV series. Then I went into doing Beauty and the Beast and then Sunset Boulevard. And some of my mates were like, dude, that's our business. We're in Australia. There's like seven jobs a year. Really? We have to take our musical theater jobs. So it kind of surprised me. And I learned a lot after I left. I always loved it. I do love that. As a singer, I always felt pretty much a fraud for the first five years. But somehow when I was acting, it was fine. I could get away with it. But I'll never forget, actually, I was doing Beauty and the Beast, and they asked me to sing the national anthem at a rugby match. And there's 100,000 people. It's a Bledisloe Cup, which means nothing to you, but to me, it's the Super Bowl. Where is that? Like Melbourne or something? It was in Melbourne, but it's Australia versus New Zealand in rugby. And I sang, and I had a panic attack the night before. July 26th. I can still tell you the date. I was terrified. And as I'm doing it, I'm like, what am I doing? I'm an actor. Why am I putting myself out there? And actually, getting through that is the most... I was three times more nervous doing that than hosting the Oscars. Like everything since then. Right. So I'm so glad that worked out. Like if I'd bombed, I probably would have just walked out of the business. Anyway, I'm telling a long story, but... No, it's good. I left drama school, and I was 26 when I left. And I was like, okay, I've worked so many part-time jobs. And the only businesses that seemed to work... You know, acting is basically a small business. Your name is your brand. And I was like, I have to do something every single day. I will not wait for a phone to ring. So me and my mate Simon decided to start a theatre company. And the day I graduated, I got a part in this series. It was a long story, but I never did anything at that theatre company. That theatre company is still going, kind of like the Worcester Group. It's still going. You didn't call me. You're not the only one that's been enhanced. I've always admired actors like you, who are just drawn by the work, who want a theatre wherever it goes, just to create. And I took a photo outside the Cottesloe Theatre, the Royal National Theatre, when I was in drama school. That was my dream. And when I was 28, I was there doing Oklahoma. And I was like, I have no dreams beyond this point. I used to watch the John Barton tapes with, you know, McKellen and Patrick Stewart and David Suchet and Schofield, all those. That was, for me, the pinnacle. I never thought I'd head to Hollywood. Did you always? When I started out, first of all, I grew up in a place where, you know, I didn't know any people that were involved in entertainment or art. So I just kind of gravitated towards people. And I gravitated towards situations. The most notable one was the Wooster Group, which is an experimental avant-garde theatre company in New York City. And it's like, I worked a little bit before that, but that's like 1977. And basically, that was my life. And my identity was as a theatre performer, and not even a traditional theatre performer. I mean, in fact, I'm saying performer rather than actor, because I identified with being a technician, too. We did everything. Right. We made stuff. But did you want to be in, like, when you were there, were you like, oh, this is my dream. I always want to be an actor. Yes and no. I was around people that I so admired, and I was so turned on. And when I was actually doing the work, I loved it so much. But also, I was a little depressed that we were so marginalized. Right. And we had our own community. But I think there was always a part of me that wanted to bust out a little bit. And that was just a concern in the back of my mind. When I was actually working, I was very happy. But it was a tough life, and it was hard to keep the theatre running. What really saved us is we had a theatre space. Right. So no one could kick us out. Right. And then you kept, like, all through, when movies happened, you kept... Yeah, I kept... In fact, in the beginning of my career, funny word for me. You can now call it a career. I guess. You're at the point. I guess. You know, I would get heckled by the theatre, don't go, don't stay. You're a sellout, that kind of thing? Not so much a sellout. It was practical. If we were going to continue working... Right, we need you. Yeah, I'd go away, and it would ruin the fabric of things. Right. But basically, I was working there. I wasn't really soliciting work. And then some people saw me. It was Catherine Bigelow. Really? And another guy by the name of Monty Montgomery. And Catherine and Monty Montgomery were making a small film called The Loveless. And they invited me. They said, would you like to play this part? And they sent me the script. And I thought, oh, this is cool. It was Catherine Bigelow's first feature. And I said, yeah. And they said, okay, let's do it. And I was like, I called up friends. I said, what do I ask for? I didn't have an agent. I didn't know any business protocol, you know? So I just said, oh, I'm going to need blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I went off, and I made this movie. Had a wonderful time. I thought, this is great. You go someplace. You make a little family. You make something. It's a parallel life. You have an adventure. You learn something. I was totally turned on. Did you feel totally comfortable in it from the get-go? You know, it was a very particular film because it was very stylized. Right. So it wasn't like naturalistic acting. But as far as relating to a camera, yeah. With the Wooster Group, very early, we were dealing with mixing technology. So I was used to being around cameras. Yeah. I mean, we were kind of both there at the beginning of this wave. But it's funny. Everything changes. It's the beginning. But now a whole industry has grown around Marvel and DC. They're movies that get exported in a successful way. Yes. So I think that's what drives them very much. Yeah. They're stories that kind of cross across cultural conditioning. So it can work in Asia as well as it can work in the States, because the stories are very, I don't know, they're muscular enough in that set pieces are visually exciting enough. I don't know. I think they're generally exceeding people's expectations. I think 10 years ago, I remember hearing people say, oh, I don't think this will last much longer. And it's just continued to grow. And I don't think anyone saw that coming. One thing I remember when Spider-Man was proposed to me, it was like, really, you're going to make a movie from a comic book? You know, it was like I was slumming it. Really. Right. Isn't that interesting? I didn't see it that way. But some people were like, really? Yeah. And it was a great movie, Spider-Man. I think X-Men sort of did a lot, particularly when it opened up in a concentration camp. And the idea that we were taking it seriously in terms of more humanistic rather than just superhuman. And then I think Nolan, I think, really just raised the bar to a whole new level and made people see it beyond any kind of genre. It's not just a genre film. But they've continued to really surprise and entertain and be very different. You have something like Deadpool. Last year, Logan, I think people, I think steers are taking risks and doing different things. And I have no idea how long it'll last. Right. I mean, you're about to do another one, right? I did Aquaman. Oh, you've done that, right. In Australia, by the way. Did you? Yeah, it was a great experience. We've got a lot of water down there. James Wan. Yeah, right. Very strong director. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And great fun because I still like to do all the action stuff. I do too. I love it because it's the kind of simplest kind of performing. You have an action. Yeah. And you apply yourself to it and something happens. That's interesting. I see it as dance. Me too. Very much like dance. I see performing as dance. Yeah, right. Really? Yeah, well, what's next? We're doing a musical, man. Come on. What do you think? You know I could sing, right? Do you want to play Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly? It's okay. I'm more Gene Kelly. You're more Gene Kelly? Okay. I'll try and do Fred. That's so interesting. I could do Ginger too. All right. Now we're talking. When I studied acting, and you would have done this at the Worcester, we did as much work on movement and use of our bodies as a form of expression, as your voice or anything else. And I think that is really, I don't know if it's taught anymore, but that's why I'm glad I had four years of training. I think it is. There was a lot of cross-fertilization of the different disciplines. At the Worcester, most of the people weren't actors. They were dancers. They were painters. They were architects. They were from different disciplines. But we always had a heavy, it was always very physical work. And me personally, when I was young, I was very taken by Jerzy Grotowski's psychophysical exercises and also the theories of his work. So that had a huge impact on me. With your experience, I'm going to call it a career. I always just said never use the word career as an actor. I think that's tough. It's tough. Never use it like it's somehow you're settling. One at a time. One at a time and assume it's your last, right? It's the same as performing in the theater, right? Assume it's your first and assume it's your last show. How do you handle yourself with disappointment either of a project or in your own work? Do you feel you're getting more philosophical about it? I do. Also because when you have enough disappointments, you know that you survived them. And also, successes don't feed you the same way that disappointments do or failures do. It's a cliche, but I think it's really true. Somewhere deeply, you learn more from your failures. Not so much consciously like, oh, I'm not going to do that again. But it gives you strength to focus on what you really think is important and where to apply yourself. So you may even repeat some of those mistakes again. But the more you do it, it's practice. It's the old try, fail, try, fail, try, fail, try, fail better. It's that. Do you love acting as much now as ever? I love it more than ever. Same. Because it runs a little deeper and certain things I don't care about that once maybe used to distract me. Yeah, right. I feel a little more focused. Yeah. You too. Definitely. Well, in general, when I was younger, everything critical of myself just mattered too much. I mean, not just acting. When I was 16, that relationship, it all mattered. I can look back now and go, come on, it was a game of cricket. It wasn't the end of the world. But at the time, it felt like that. And I think at the beginning of my career, it all felt like that. If I didn't get a gig or if the gig didn't go well. But at the same time, when I hear someone say, it ain't brain surgery, I get a little annoyed. It's like, it is. So I still have the same kind of stake. I relate to what you say. The stake hasn't changed. It's not like I'm easier about it. It's just you recognize cycles a little bit better. And you know that you will survive. So it's like you stop worrying about the stuff that you can't do anything about. Yeah. And you focus more on the stuff that you can do something about. Yeah. I think that's probably what has happened. The other thing for me has been choices, making choices. I've learned the hard way sometimes doing things that I didn't feel were right. Went against my gut on it. That's hard. And I really try to avoid that now. And actually failure, if you really believe in it, when you say yes, it's fine. I love you. No, I'm with you. If you know why you did things. Right. And you're kind of pure and you're in that. You can live with whatever the outcome is. Because you can't control everything. Right. So you can only control your intention and your kind of. Yeah, your good impulse, your degree of engagement. Yeah. And that, in fact, when you're free of the idea of the result, sometimes the engagement can run so much deeper because you're not preoccupied and thinking ahead. You're not getting ahead of yourself. You're doing this for this. Yep. Yeah. OK. That was fun, man. Yeah. That was awesome. Hey, pleasure. Really.