Rings of Power Cast Interview: Benjamin Walker

Hello everybody and welcome to our first cast interview for Rings and Realms. We are delighted to be joined today by Ben Walker who of course plays Gil Gallad in the show. Ben, thank you so much for joining us today. Well thanks for having me. I didn't realize I'm the first. That makes the honor exponential. Thank you. Let's start with the king, man. Start with the king. King of the elves. Exactly, exactly. Well I would love to just sort of hear from you. There's a lot of really big picture stuff happening with the elves this season of course and you know as you're sort of preparing for the show you're thinking through you know Gil Gallad and his perspective on all these things. Tell me about the Elven Rings. Of course there was a lot of discussion in the early episodes especially a lot of doubt and uncertainty in that moment especially in episode one where Gil Gallad kind of turns right where Elrond sort of thinks he's going to be on his side and then he ends up coming down on Galadriel's side. Tell me a little bit about sort of your own your own thoughts and and and you know your kind of picture of Gil Gallad's headspace there. Well I mean I know Tolkien was resistant to this idea that that they the rings were a metaphor for anything other than the rings but in terms of thinking of it in the context of our show you know we remember that these are the elves that chose to stay and you know the middle earth is our our baby for want of a better term and we're at the point where we're going to have to abandon it this hunk of rock we know that as soon as we leave is going to eat itself and that is a tragedy and as the leader of the elves I think he carries that disappointment and sadness and at this point in the in the narrative in our show I think he'll pretty much try anything if it gives that smallest grain of hope and here come the rings here comes Ben Daniels right I'm up there singing my heart out and we're about to get on the boat and in terms of what they could be we don't know they don't and if there's the slightest possibility that they could bring about some good we have to try it it's this new technology the thing I liken it to is you know they've discovered nuclear fission it's that scene in Oppenheimer when when he's talking to Einstein by the pond and he's yes he could you know power all the homes in North America or incinerate the earth I'm not really sure and um it but if there's a chance that it can bring about peace and stability you so I think that's where we first see them yeah the parallel there is interesting yeah I was gonna say the parallel there's really interesting because there's the the show seems to place a lot of emphasis especially in those first two episodes not just on like the particular properties of the rings themselves even as much as just the fact that it they have power you know it's it's more about like the general question of the usage of power and what the sudden exposure to power is going to do to people and that seems to be one of the main dynamics it seems to me anyway watching those first few episodes is one of the things that they're talking about so I'm thinking about the nuclear fission thing right I mean it's it's a it's an enormous power and what are you going to do with it and how you know how power is wielded based on whose hands it's in yes and I think they do that cleverly I definitely think we'd get too much into the muck of the recipes of the rings that that's you know a slippery slope into kind of another shell as opposed these are lenses that augment the wearer and in that sense it is a bit vague but I don't mind it I yes it works yeah you know instead of vague we'll call it mysterious well I mean to be honest Tolkien was equally mysterious about the rings of power especially the elven rings and what exactly they do I mean there's nowhere where he really just like lays out like here's the nature of the elven rings and and here's exactly what properties they have like we don't we don't we don't really get that on the left hand they bring they heal flora and exactly that's just what we don't get yeah yeah but um I definitely think it's a new technology we don't understand and uh the possibility that we can save middle earth in this kind of hail mary pass at the last moment like a hopeful innovation yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah um yeah no exactly and uh so the the question I'm thinking of course here primarily of Elrond's concerns which are perfectly reasonable you know his concerns about the corruption um so I'm thinking specifically about the concerns that Gil-galad was expressing and sharing with Elrond back in season one about the spread of darkness and even Galadriel's role in that uh earlier on um uh is it do is is it your sense that it's just simply that question of like well yes there's risk but let's you know we it's it's the best chance we have so let's take the risk I think so I think also that you know that time is so flexible in the mind of an elf um when you apply that it's the same outcome we leave and evil consumes middle earth we stay we try the rings they don't work evil consumes middle earth and the the latter has at least uh this slight possibility that uh we stay we wear the rings and um uh it it might work out and it's worth the risk because ultimately if we fail the outcome is the same right also he's not um he Elrond is not qualified to make this decision I mean qualified in the eyes of the king at this moment right and um I think Gil-galad I mean what what I glean from the literature is his awareness of the inevitable resurrection of evil that this is I've seen this happen before and it will happen again and here we are in the midst of it we may have taken our eye off the uh off the ball for a moment and it's gotten a bit ahead of us and Galadriel certainly didn't help um uh but but here we are and we need we need help at this point yes yeah we're caught on the back foot so it it's a it's a a calculated risk and I understand his concerns but also because of the time constraints I'm king shush give them to me yeah right right and visually I feel like we got to see that side of Gil-galad very strongly in this season so far where you know that relationship with Elrond has shifted in a certain respect he's kind of rising up in confidence but you're still in charge so seeing that kind of dynamic shift as he's stepping into that role it's been really neat to watch the relationship change between you and Elrond while at the same time the progression Gil-galad and Elrond at the same time the progression of uh the rings affecting you and Galadriel and that separation so and and there you know I I like the metaphor of Gil-galad as a kind of loving parent um in that uh you give your children and people that depend on you space to make mistakes but every once in a while when there are zombies coming up the stairs we're not discussing it you get in here and you shush you hide under the but why daddy no you shush we're not talking about it you don't have time to explain the nuances of the danger that's lurking at the door and this is one of those moments and but other times I I you know it's I think I mean the king he seems so prescient in the lore you know he seems to kind of always be ahead of it that that you know he's sending you know he's just sending dispatches to Numenor uh anticipating yes you know the the the rise of evil and the necessity of unification um he's distrustful of of Annatar in a way that no one else seems to be um he he just kind of has a bit of his finger on the pulse of what's going on underneath things in Middle-earth and I think at this moment it's fun as the act an actor even though I don't necessarily have the text to support that nor do I even know if the showrunners have the rights to those narratives um but it's nice to imagine that he senses something that at this moment he is not capable of articulating but that you you know that you just have to trust me on this yeah absolutely um coming back to to the rings for a moment one of the things that I was really interested to think about um especially in episode uh two and a couple of the shots that we've gotten after that like in the conversations between Gil-galad and his his commanders you know the the army commanders and things that we got later on um is about the the relationship with the ring and how the relationship how the ring has has is sort of affecting him or has changed him one thing that I immediately noticed visually um was of course you know in the the famous hand shot right with the three of you holding your hands in with the rings on Gil-galad has all the bling all the bling yeah exactly all the bling it's it but then I noticed that in episode two the next time we see Gil-galad but he's only wearing Vilya and all the other rings are gone right and that's I mean it's it it very subtly suggests that there's been some kind of a change to his relationship with that this is no longer just one of his rings anymore right this is this is now the only ring that he wears um so tell me more about your your sense of that kind of ongoing relationship with uh with Vilya with with the ring sure well initially and this was a an idea that uh Kate Howley was um kind enough to indulge the original my original idea for um Gil-galad was that he wore brass knuckles this guy um almost like a glove a ornate glove and she said well we're not going to do that but what I can't do is um and she assembled this collection of very uh ornate and beautiful um I mean one that's one is this a massive pearl like something the pope would wear and you may have heard me talk about this but then um when he makes a fist they kind of interlock and into a kind of gnarly looking brass knuckles and that's kind of his identity because it's the duality of who we know him to be at that point uh sophisticated and and present but also with the potential to make mess right um in defense of what he believes in whereas now that we introduced the rings he's a he's a different creature and I think as he starts to embody these visions and they start to permeate his existence in his life um again to speak about his prescient nature I think there's a part of him that senses the inevitability of what's coming and in particular what's coming to him right I don't know that he necessarily practically sees himself die and in the context in which he dies but I do think he starts to feel uh the time ticking through the hourglass and and what's unique about him is that um he embraces it that it I'm sure it troubles and frightens him but also excites and pacifies him it uh he he's a different elf and so I'm it's really great that you care about those details and you know the way that he existed has died and now he's on the path uh his ultimate path right and having it is in um juxtaposition of kind of uh you know by the time I mean I have no idea that we'll do this in the show but by the time he then passes the ring to Elrond he's nearing the end of his time yes new elf and yes as he's coming near uh the end of his time you know the next step is unification yes that and I like this about what the showrunners have done in the second season is that in the in the first episode uh we see middle earth is still okay we don't fully understand what's going on but uh we're we're not on fire yet right uh by the last episode middle earth is you know a region is in ashes but yes as we stand on the precipice and lift the sword aloft the elves are united whereas in the first episode they're fighting like cats and dogs and I'm like you go to your room you go to your room um and uh jumping off cliffs and all kinds of things exactly if I don't get to jump off something by the end of this series I'm gonna be ticked everybody's just jump off something prove a point um but that that that's what's hopeful a that there's the rallying cry from uh from the elf at large but also that we stand united in our in our pursuit but as his time wanes unification grows you know that that as he passes the ring the gauntlet of the responsibility of middle earth is also passed um right and I like that continuity and and um the cyclical nature of Tolkien that's just another little way and yeah Gilgallad is part of it well it's really interesting to think about um just going back to what you were saying about that decision point in in episode one right where middle earth is the baby and and you know is their baby and you know if they know that if they have to leave um but at the same so but there's kind of another dynamic there right it means that that that decision to stay um I'm thinking about what you were saying about this sort of sense that Gilgallad has that he's on a pathway which is if not certain likely to lead to his death to his own sacrifice and so of course that means that another dynamic kind of a hidden dynamic in a sense in that first scene is him also turning down going back to Valinor I would rather stay here and do the Hail Mary even though it might mean my death then go back to Valinor which would be good for them sort of selfishly perhaps but sure and and I guess technically they've already done that you know this is a doubling down on an original decision but I think um you know the the the the the first time there's a bit of elvish arrogance to it you know we're going to be back on this little hunk of dirt whereas this time we we want to save something and partially our investment in it but also I think that um their connection to it over these thousands of years has grown that we we really love it and um it would be mourning our our place our existence and um who we've become right right thinking about that in general tell me more about Gilgallad's relationship with the tree in Linden I've been kind of I've been thinking a lot about the tree in Linden over the course of both seasons and trying to not just sort of understand the mechanics of it exactly but it clearly has a symbolic significance but at the same time I've never I've not been completely clear on the one hand it seems like a tie back to Valinor right and an echo of the trees of Valinor but at the same time it also seems clearly to be unimportant I mean it's it's also tied through its corruption and mere death right it's tied also with the life of the elves in Middle-earth so it seems to be kind of pointing both ways in this way so I I would love to hear more about kind of your thought your your understanding of Gilgallad's relationship with the tree sure well the way I've justified it for myself is the the idea that that if elves can create beauty we can sustain peace through every the reason we write the way that we write the reason we dress the way that we dress the music that we play the food that we eat how we breed each other even the quality and nature of the weapons that we wield they're all nuggets of light and we accept that they ripple throughout Middle-earth that Aragion I mean the fall of Aragion is not just oh man we lost that cool town we lost the beacon of light from which the light of the Valinor the Valar is reflected throughout Middle-earth thus you know bolstering peace and I think that is for Gilgallad in particular as a sensation that he can feel it and the the tree in particular is a kind of barometer of how we're doing it's our connection our literal connection to how we're rooted into Middle-earth and as the soil is poisoned this is where we see it become self-evident it's the the the patch of mold in your drywall that starts to you know I Gilgallad to you know I'm just coming up with this metaphor so go with me but Gilgallad the first one to walk in the room and go smell funny than anybody else that you know the evil is coming from within and this is the first place we start to see it yes and if we can glean from the illness of the tree and if the tree dies we can assume that the house is unsalvageable right right if we stay in here any longer we'll have breathed the spores and and there there's no hope for us I'm actually really proud of that one I know that was really good beautiful visual cue anyway and then you just gave it all this import that yeah but but that's how I think about it that it is a kind of sensation that they can't and probably don't need to fully articulate but you know that it's a barometer of how we're doing yeah that's yeah those are both uh both the the moldy house and the barometer are both really interesting metaphors that that kind of uh sort of suggest a uninteresting connection yeah really effective on screen you know it gives you this tool with which to play with and to show what's going on understand that there's something bigger at play but also has all this attachment to the lore that we can play with you know it makes sense as the bridge between the two places but it's this really strong visual cue that you as king use but also we as viewers can interpret as problematic there's there's there's trouble in the house yeah and and that all that we do and attempt to do and one of the things that I love about kalimbor and what uh charles edwards does with it is that we are we are reflections reflectors for the uh light of the valon right yes uh you know i'm not unlike in casa doom when the the the light the path of the light is obstructed we're plunged into darkness and and when that happens you know things come all over the ground yeah yes yes yeah no that's great so one of the things that i know a lot of people have been kind of interested in and and thinking about is essentially gilgaud's role as king like what exactly his leadership role is um you know there are there are some sort of differences between um uh what how the show seems to depict his kingship versus how the high kingship is i mean talking does not define it very clearly but but i mean there are some differences i think that we can see there but i would be interested to hear you talk more that was one of the things in gilgaud scenes from this season that i found really interesting we again we see him interacting with his commanders like we see him not just kind of standing in a ceremonial role not just speaking personally to gladriel and elrond but we saw him actually like in administration basically so anyways i'd just be interested to hear about your your concept of essentially what it means to be king what it means to be high king um among the elves yeah it is it is odd you know that was he a priest is he yeah i mean i mean there's there there is question about his lineage anyway um yes and i mean we can get into that but you'll get we'll get lots of comments online but what i think is unique about his lineage is that it was kind of thrust upon him uh the time in which he uh was in his elvish adolescence and then in the state of becoming and then who looked after him he had a surrogate father sequestered and in some ways he has become a surrogate father um and uh what he would have just as important as uh who his daddy was on the family tree um yes and i also like that tolkien never really uh i guess christopher made a full-blown decision about it but but that jr didn't though christopher doubted like second guessed himself later later he was like now hang exactly but in terms of of his role well i mean it is also you know you're grappling with the idea the the knowledge that well actually the latter is older than i am and more experienced why am i dressing yes um uh his hmm well first off he he is where the buck stops right i think that that he is the you know the tenth man the one who has to actually take the responsibility hear everyone out and uh but ultimately he's the last call and that that that is the uniquely uniqueness of elvish hierarchy that in some ways everyone gets a voice but not everyone gets a vote and he's willing to hear everyone but eventually really there's only one vote right and you know that's his role to be that yeah you know yeah speaking of ability yeah exactly speaking of hierarchy one of the places we see that like the question of actual leadership hierarchy again not just his relationship with particular people like elrond but um is with calibrin bore and the question you know when calibri bore is like am i not lord of oregion right i can i can you know um and so he he has authority like he has real authority he is the lord of oregion as of course we see you know galadriel very um uh sort of movingly insisting upon when she comes in and meets they have their last meeting there in episode seven right um so he has real authority in oregion and yet just as clearly is you know hierarchically subservient to uh to galad um do you have a clear sense of like what that relationship like between galad and calibrin bore as you know lord of oregion how that how like sort of the dynamics of that kind of work yeah i mean a lot of a lot of that is the i think the process of information and the role that you know that is your role and your role only you know that that um where calibrin bore is manipulated into thinking uh i like to think um uh he he makes a decision for middle earth under the guise i am lord of oregion it's like well that qualifies you to make decisions about this but not about all of us which is another distinction hierarchically and also the control of the flow of information which i also understand is frustrating to elrond in particular it's like you'll know when it's time for you to know and it makes the king i think early on seem a bit machiavellian and a bit politically aloof to to put it nicely um but that that comes with the responsibility you get the first answers you get the first information and then you get to choose how you disseminate it which is ultimately what kind of screws him up because he can't roll the flow of information because spread too far um he's right in that but um his responsibility is to uh develop his craft which is a universal craft the the like we spoke earlier the expansion of the light and the beauty and the reflection of valinor um but he doesn't have the responsibility for all of elvendom and ultimately all of middle earth as we're the protectors you know he uh i like also you know like what ismael's doing with with the woodland elves that that that is also under the purview of the king he is aware and it is his job to take and filter all the information and uh calibrin border is misguided when he forgets that he's his information is right right that's a good answer to your question no no no can you just see like our wheels turning as you talk though i'm like i've got a whole outline of questions now but let's go i i've been talking about this to the end well i just i just love it and it just makes me think so much about the world building that we talk about all the time with adaptation discussions but it happens so much with an individual practice in production too that i mean if you're if you're willing to talk a bit about process too i i'm so curious about how much of this conversation and thought process which clearly informs your performance goes into your community of performance and artists and technicians like do you speak beforehand about the role of the high king so everyone in that world understands what your role is like and i not just filmic role but what the role of gilgala the high king is so everyone's on the same page historically you know sometimes um i can say that unlike a lot of jobs i've had the majority of everyone who's involved in this one has the the same goal which is to serve the vision of tolkien and that we come at it as previous fans and fans that are enriched by having this job um and in some ways uh like lindsey weber our executive producer she's the gilgala and that everyone she has to control information she has to make a potentially unpopular decision in the moment but you don't understand that we're losing the light she's going to get a union rep down there in about two seconds if we don't do a certain turnaround you there are things at play that you don't understand uh you may be the lord of reggae on and you want another take but uh the answer is no that's a beautiful metaphor and ultimately uh what you also don't don't understand is that the buck stops there if it doesn't go well or um you know someone gets hurt or uh the the show falls apart or you know that that's that's who's gonna ultimately have to deal with it um the and uh that's actually also a pretty good analogy um but yeah i mean there are a few of us that can't stop talking about it and they're discussing it there are time constraints in a television show and that um sometimes you you get the material in it in a manner in which you can't fully um processes and have the levels of discussions that you wish you could have um like for example we um we didn't have time for a uh a read-through of some episodes so those that were interested in and charlotte uh the director you know she was interested i was like look come on this sunday we just come sit in my living room we're gonna read it we're gonna have some discussions trying to at least get on the same page in terms of our goals of how we see it um and it was really funny i have this uh french bulldog and he was kind of locked upstairs because he's loud and um and we're reading and i think one and uh and and the beast was born forth from the soul and uh and as that happened the door swung open and he kind of poked his head in he's like you rang um but you have to take that whether it's in your own time whether it's on the phone whether it is in the context of uh you and the showrunner sit down and have a discussion um whether it's over lunch that we're constantly uh trying to connect and make sure we're all headed in the same direction and largely i think we've been able to to do that in different capacities but unfortunately it is television and we're making a film a month and people have their own lives and it's talking and you know we could stand on set and and and talk about it and never fully come to a consensus and never shoot it we're familiar with that we're a little familiar with that that's what i love about it you know reading it and discussing it don't tell my agent almost as much as i love baking it it's a coup to have a job where they pay me to read read the lore um but yeah i think and and the more we do it and and the more we have to do like now we're starting to cover some second age terrain and there are some battles we're just gonna lose uh you know the fall of regia we're doing that now okay um uh you okay well that's what we have to do let's figure out why that's good and what we can do with it and uh you know and there there are times where especially as the king i go what why you mean he didn't see that coming are you what what he he this is the high king gilgala but then you then you remember the lindsey weber analogy and you say well this isn't called the trials and tribulations of high king gilgala this is called the rings of power on amazon prime and then you know right it is a collaborative process and you're going to win some battles and lose some battles and what's more gilgala than that yeah and ultimately i i trust everyone involved and i trust their uh affection for the material right right well my last question is thinking about the relationship with galadriel as that's obviously you know been in sort of things did not begin well uh he's a terrible judge of character am i right right i mean just you keep missing honey i don't know what to tell you right i i i i bet you were feeling a little bit smug on gilgala's behalf uh at the end of season one i was pleasantly at the screening the other night when i i mean it's also fun i get to about as close as as anyone gets to telling an elvish joke and the kind of sarcastic nature of oh man you woke up yeah i enjoyed it when you were unconscious and the level of of laughter that that received was really gratifying sorry but i interrupted your question but the relationship with galadriel yeah no just just think thinking about the the progress of that you know and how again thinking especially of sort of the turning point uh in that moment in episode one of season two right with the rings right when all of a sudden there there's this kind of pivot right and uh glad you'll and gilgala would find themselves sort of on the same side um where they had not been really seeing eye to eye through all of season one um and then through you know towards uh towards the end of uh of season two right as they're now again working working together though still not wholly i mean i just would be interested in hearing your your your your your thoughts about gilgala's kind of ideas about galadriel beginning in a sense as you said with the the recognition that she is sort of due respect she is his senior right i mean he's he's got the authority but she's been around longer she's her perspective is is is longer and wider than his in that sense and also in the context specifically of our show her perspective is troubling dangerous but unique in that she has already faced uh sauron in one of his forms that you know she too is having visions that in some ways she understands a lot better than i do because she has a clearer context for it um it's like elrond needs the space to fulfill his destiny and in the eyes of the king galadriel needs the space to kind of work through some issues and he he in some ways she can in some ways the issues win but again i you know i look at it through the eyes of the king and in the context of her i think he senses her potential i think he senses how invaluable she is and there is a level of tolerance that it demands a literally um in that we know who she is and whether or not it's specifically in our show i know who she is from the literature and uh that he has to afford her that narratively i don't envy that the showrunners have so far to go we have to start in some place where they are fallible and in the state of the coming um and that uh i don't like this it's in some ways it's interesting television to see semi-perfect creatures screw up like i'll give you an example one that when i first read it i went oh come on um but it especially with charles edward's performance i i really like the fact that he can't remember uh his assistant's name yes the elves can't remember what do you mean he can't remember it he remembers the specifics of thousands of years right the recipes of alloys that that uh you know will sadly die with his mind but when you re-examine it and get over well this was my expectation because this is what i know from the books and what i imagined when i read them um what it is is a testament to the power of this uh mystical gas lighting in which he finds himself it's a testament to evil where he's that he's in the grips of that something that seems so uh obvious you know the the eyes of the eagle are blind for a moment and uh that that actually that's pretty cool um something that we took for granted is failing us and that's how troubling it is and and i think that also applies to the king and galadriel's relationship is that it's fraught because they are for all intents and purposes equals and in some ways she's superior but she still has to respect the authority and the hierarchy of it which is how she is fallible yes had had she respected it even though she may have known better if she'd just gotten on the damn boat uh there's a huge case to be made that we wouldn't be in this situation now that's a pretty boring television that's one that's one season of this show so i'm very glad she jumped off but um it it they they need each other in that context that the king often needs a little bit of pushing he needs a little bit of focus and uh she uh needs support and uh it it is her strength that gets in her way and why another reason i think it's a pretty savvy move that he allows her the freedom to go check on caliber and more but elrond's gonna run the show i mean that's gotta really chat like just like yeah a minute but but i think that's a pretty uh pretty savvy move on this part yes yes but no that makes a lot of sense i think i think it's gonna be fraught for a long time actually yeah one way to go but have separate skills that are at times gonna cause friction yeah yeah yeah well even in the book authority and power is galadriel's big issue right i mean that's that's that's the thing that she struggles with um whether it's you know possibly you know see you know being too interested in seizing power for herself or i mean it's it makes all the sense in the world that her relationship with the high king whom as you say she would consider her junior in some sense like yes okay yes like you're the high king and i totally respect the concept of high king right but uh you know come on now like is it yeah i got asked a question the other day of how has your work in the show started to influence your daily life me ben and i was actually thinking about this the relationship with gladrail the other day when i was talking to my seven-year-old son and i had this very similar sensation to whether i had reading uh episode two for example um my son was in his class at school and he was standing with some kids that were talking and he got in trouble because of his association with them you know the teacher was struggling to kind of get the class to move to the next place um and he just kind of got lumped in at which point he said whoa i i wasn't talking they might have been talking but i wasn't talking i shouldn't be in trouble at which point he got in trouble again and it's that moment of i hear you and i'm not saying you're wrong but did you help yourself in that moment and i had and i had that this is very gil gallant right now and i could feel resonances of the show is because you know ben's first thought is you know what i'm when i got you weren't you shouldn't be in trouble um but actually the the they they kind of ebb and flow they flip-flop on who's playing a better version of the long game usually i think it's gil gallant um but uh galadriel is certainly a force to be reckoned with well and that in itself um the concept actually of like a a paternal metaphor for gil gallant in his relationship it's interesting and i don't i i i try not to talk about it too much on set because it can kind of sound condescending to your fellow nurse of like children and i will help guide you to the full potential but but that's an oversimplification of the relationship but but in terms of a loving parent that kind of specific um uh you know you got yourself up in that tree let's see you get down um which at the moment you know as you as as as having been the child you feel a bit betrayed i'm frightened in fear and it's that kind of stretching of your potential and working through the consequences of your own behavior that makes it a loving parent um then that's how i mean it not in the condescending i know all the answers and you don't of course in uh in the context of the show um did you help yourself it was lookable you know did that help you did that help us you may be right but what is our ultimate goal and that is to save middle earth you may be right about the rings but i'm the boss give them here we have to take that chance and i don't have time to explain it to you uh loving parent um okay you've messed up repeatedly you get to go but you're gonna have a chaperone and the chaperone's gonna piss you off loving parent um that he in some ways i think he like for example in the last episode what do we do sword of the shield i think the king knows but it is the exercise of asking the question at large that unifies the group um and that's what makes him a good leader and makes him a loving parent versus just a parent that right he he gives everyone the space to exist and be part as opposed to on your feet soldier sword is out here we go and it's one of the we may have spoken about it the other night but it it is one of the things that i think the show does well and that i think particularly in the last scene charlotte and the editors and jd and patrick have done well is that the the eruption of the battle cry comes before the swords even up you know he turns and addresses uh you know the avenge elves and and as but the the the potential is already there and see them beaten dejected having suffered great loss but uh raring to get back in the fight and it in and that's so much better than the scene in the movie where the coach comes out and what are we gonna do we're gonna get you're gonna get up on your feet it's gonna be great as opposed to unlocking the potential of should be a catalyst a shepherd and the uh i i like that metaphor for him and that he is uh easeful but calculated and and that takes us into for example how he wields a gloves there's something kind of philatelic to it that once the motion starts the momentum of it continues and that it it is violent but there is an ease and an indifference to it like a loving parent you know my life is your life um it doesn't mean he doesn't care it doesn't mean that he doesn't feel passionately about it but i think you need to see his experience in everything that and i think a good leader gives space for participation from all parties as opposed to dictating which direction we go right that was talking about long-winded clearly i think about it all the time um and it's also exciting to talk to people who care about it and are you know infinitely more well-read than i am but also i've just you know i really enjoy talking about the show in press but every once in a while it's it's you know how you've changed between season one and season two and like i could sum that up in 30 seconds but this is this i could talk about edna's right um this is where the fun is you know and it's cool and it still feels like scratching the surface you know like yeah i mean just that metaphor too it's like it's what you were saying about like being a loving parent is the same as the buck stops here like you have to be in that leadership position you're making those final decisions as the parent in the hiking you know but you are guiding you can't please everybody um and he accepts that and i think there's a sadness to that there's loneliness i think another fact that i i love about gilgaled is there's no mention of him ever having a partner that he kind of he's the orphaned uh is reared out of the context of bloodline necessarily and and then uh the closest connections in some ways he has are with a half elf and with a human yeah so that that he's constantly trying to grasp that bringing together some semblance of a family this is where i get like almost sad for him and that by the end he's he's he's alone and i think there's something beautiful about that in him and that you know heavy is the head that wears the crown and that there is responsibility but also there's i think a real loneliness to it that's what i think yeah yeah and it really does you know as you mentioned the certainly the longest running relationship that we know that he has is with elrond right who is his second in command for a very very long stretch of time right um and that's certainly one of the things that i've been you know since before the show launched you know i've been really excited to see was the sort of the long-term development of the relationship between gilgaled and elrond and i'm thinking in particular about the the kind of parental metaphors that you were discussing we can see that most explicitly i think in his uh you know the way that he sort of takes elrond aside and is clearly uh you know kind of training him and instructing him in a much more i think explicitly paternal way than then with almost certainly more than with gladriel for instance or even with other people yeah yeah if anything he's just corralling her i guess tighten the leash at times like you know and even she's gonna do what she's gonna do um but you know i think that is correct and i like that we're able to maintain something that may not directly come from the lord but that we can elaborate on and and what i what i imagined he would have liked yes yeah wonderful well ben thanks so much for the conversation i know as maggie said it's uh it still feels like just scratching the surface there's so much more that we could talk about hope to have you back again uh in a future time to talk about more as the story continues to develop but uh really fun things happening um especially uh the the sort of the momentum towards the end of the season uh in season two here with gil gallet and his leadership and uh it will be really interesting to see as presumably we're going to be settling in for the war in eriador in season three to see how that kind of goes yeah are we in rivendell i don't know i can neither but but but we do know what we do know is that they don't know and that wherever they are is uh it is a necessity that it's a sanctuary um but then you get back to the you know showrunners and lindsey weber like i don't know what they have the rights for you know like like who knows um yeah you have to you have to defer to that and respect that and then you know then find the freedom within the structure of the world that you do have and there's plenty of talking to go around in that yeah definitely right well thank you so much i mean anytime i love this and uh you know i'm careful no really and you know and i i really like it's an honor to be part of the discussion even if uh you know on instagram you get messages from people that really don't agree great great this is great you're passionate about it the worst thing that could possibly happen is that that you're indifferent you know that you you watch rings of power and go okay well where do we order pizza well those rings how many rings did the king need i mean come on you know at least at least it's it's sparking a debate and ultimately the the biggest win for the show is that if people are either so frustrated or so elated and curious that they then go read the books for the first time for sure for sure well thanks again and we look forward to talking to you again sometime my pleasure i look forward to it