A Priest and Life After Death | Stefan Lampe

Can I say it like that? But I don't want to be too cautious. I'll just say it. Faith is a crutch for this side of the world. It helps us to walk. For me, it's the Christian belief system, whether it is Catholic or Lutheran. Well, I believe these two denominations have so many common features and not many proper differences anyway. They never played a big role to me anyway. Faith is just a walking aid and I won't need this walking aid anymore. This crutch. That's what I connect with in this experience. And I probably wouldn't have been able to live in the same way and I may not have been able to accept it in the same way if I hadn't had this accident. Mr. Lampe, you're a Catholic priest and you had a near-death experience caused by a car accident several years ago. Before our interview, you wrote very nicely about your experience. As a quote, As a theologian, I'm a man of words, but here I've got to capitulate. It seems almost impossible to me to describe in those poor words of this side of the world what I have experienced during my car accident, which lasted maybe two seconds on this side of the world. To me, it seemed like experiencing a timeless show. Please, let's give it a try anyway. What did you experience at the time? It was a car accident. I drove too fast. It was 20 years ago. It was a car accident and I was driving too fast. It happened 20 years ago, although it seems to me as if all this happened in the not-too-distant past. It was a Sunday evening. I'd only been a priest for two years. I'd only started working for a little while. I drove through a forest. It was very cold, but it was dry. This is why I was driving too fast and fog had settled down on a bridge and suddenly there was a curve and while I was driving 120 km per hour, I was thinking, I won't make it. Then the car went. It almost shot, so to speak, directly into the woods lined with spruce trunks and it was a second during which I thought, that's it. And there wasn't a chance in the world to get out of this. I just saw the forest and realized that the car wouldn't react to my actions. And the whole thing happened on a very isolated road. I think the next car only came 15 minutes later. I would have, during this one second, I wasn't really aware of that. I just thought, that's it. What did you experience eternally then? During the second, while I was thinking, that's it, there was a completely different time. The time I'm at home, a moment of shock. It was fear and shock and I don't know what else. And then, all of a sudden, there was something like a complete timelessness. That's how I would try to put it into words. It had, I don't know at all how long this experience lasted for, but it didn't have a clock hand anymore. I wasn't in the car anymore. I can't say that I saw myself from outside of my body, but I was definitely not in the car anymore. I was in a different place. Although the word place bothers me because it wasn't a place. It was more like a state, so to speak. What did you experience during the state? I'm trying to put it into words. An image, namely. It was like a blanket was taken off me all of a sudden. It wasn't like a cozy and warm blanket, but a blanket that didn't make me realize how much bigger reality is. It gave me the impression that a very big vastness set in. Not abruptly, but a very gentle one. And in this vastness there wasn't any time but an experience of presence. It might be easier to say what I didn't see. Actually, seeing is not the right word. I didn't see any figures, but I know there were many figures around me. I had the feeling that in this condition, in this situation, I would have had access to every answer of any question. Sometimes I'm annoyed that I didn't ask anything, but I already know that I wouldn't have understood it anyway. Actually, what would I have asked? It was a condition of which I would say, well, my normal life is maybe 1% of that special moment that was given to me additionally. Vastness, space, light, but none you could compare to anything. It wasn't a color you'd find in a paint box. It is really hard to explain. I don't want to read too much into it. It was also that as long as it lasted, I would say it was timelessly long. I couldn't say that it took 2 or 3 seconds. They probably were just 2 or 3 seconds because then I heard a bang. The car was completely wrecked. I couldn't get out of the driver's door. I had to climb out at the back somehow. I was okay, but when there was the crash, I was suddenly drawn back into the car again and I had all those things you'd have at such a moment. That's just what I assume. It's been my only accident of the type so far. At first, I thought, are you dead now? Are you injured? No, you're okay. I wasn't injured at all. And all of a sudden, I could hear the car radio again. I also should mention that I was listening to a song while driving too fast. I really liked it. That's probably what caused me to drive faster. And the song was still playing after the accident, which means that the whole thing mustn't have taken too long. But to identify how long the experience took is impossible. In how far did your self-perception change during this experience? It was an endless addition of myself, meaning me plus endlessly more. But it is difficult to explain. That's exactly the question I've asked myself many times. It was definitely a personal way of being myself. It didn't have anything to do with my occupation or I don't know what else. It didn't have anything to do with age either, but I could say me. But I don't think I said this as I wasn't speaking at that moment. I didn't ask anything. I wasn't really looking at anything real either. I was just astonished. And there was one thing I perceived especially, that there is a reality that will expect us for sure. It was, as already mentioned earlier, it was like a blanket taken off me and suddenly there was a lot of room. It wasn't a built room, but more like space, a horizon. And I know that I was thinking, oh, I see, that's it. And once I made an attempt to put all these things into words, I did that with the help of an item. There are those yardsticks that can be unfolded and I was looking at one. I was 31 years old at the time and now I'm 52. We've got a life expectancy of about 0 to maybe 80 years old, if you're lucky. So you take this life expectancy and transfer it onto the yardstick. And at that moment I had the feeling that I was looking at the yardstick like that. So I had an experience at which point I saw my whole life differently, meaning not as a sequence, I didn't see a film. And there weren't different scenes of my life either, but I saw my whole life in front of me. It was more the essence of my life from which I didn't even know that it existed. It was condensed to one spot. Everything was overlaid and it was completely good, which confused me because I'd never had an impression that everything had been good in my life. I also would have had a lot of questions. I also noticed that there was a connection. In other words, if I look at the front of the yardstick, then I really just see the one thing that's behind it. But it was overlaid and I had the feeling that there was a lot more to see or an essence of all the encounters in my life. I also realized that I had made an impact on other people's lives that I had hardly remembered. And now I was aware of that, and that's what makes it so difficult to explain. I realized all those things at that very moment. It wasn't anything that was experienced subsequently. It was more like an experience of, oh, that's what it is. And suddenly you realize that everything you've done is stored. But that's not the right word either. It's suddenly like annulled and your life consists of much more than you realized. And I thought, what a shame I hadn't known that earlier. Now it's over. So I didn't have the impression that, well, I had somehow the impression that something completely new was about to start, but not in a timely sense. I realized that everything is interconnected. Everything is intertwined. And I remember that suddenly. I realized where I'd done something wrong and where I'd enabled something. And all this happened within a short moment. To be honest, I'm still speechless. Has this assessment of your life up to that point had a lasting effect on the rest of your life? Yes, definitely. It didn't happen directly after the experience. It took a long time until I was able to face this madness internally because it was very uncomfortable to deal with something that you can't classify with your normal senses. But this experience eventually tells me that there isn't anything that is for nothing. Your actions always cause some kind of response. You're connected. You're not alone. I don't want to read into this too much. It was at that moment when I wanted to stop a car. He came only 15 minutes after the accident and that's when he saw me. I was also recognizably a priest. The driver said, has there been an accident? He thought I was somebody else. That I was there to help. But I was in the middle of the woods so I was completely shocked. This experience was very significant but it takes time to process. It takes courage and maybe I needed this inner push that told me, come on, in order to face the indescribable and give it space. It's very hard for me though. Maybe I'm too German. Maybe too theoretical. Or maybe too intellectual. To be honest, I cannot grasp it properly. So, although we're just talking about a few seconds, they were extremely eventful. Are there further aspects you can describe? I'll try. On one hand it seemed absolutely real. There's a part of me that tries to tell me that it was the shock. It was that part that struggled with this whole experience. But there's this inner knowledge in me that tells me that this was not imagined. It wasn't anything I had read into because I had heard about these things and wanted to experience them myself. It was an absolute realistic, deeply felt and very personal experience. On the other hand, I had the impression that's what it's going to be like in general. So, I didn't have the feeling that I was given a somewhat private epiphany. But epiphany isn't really the right word here. I saw something that is going to happen. I'm 100% certain of that. I had this experience that is so difficult to put into words so that even the smallest things I do put something in motion. And somehow there's the word of connectivity. There's nothing I do that wouldn't be connected to anything. Overall, at that moment, I had the feeling that I was part of everything. Well, you also ask whether it was myself who had this experience and I said, yes, it was me plus 99% more. I had the feeling I was part of everything. That I wasn't bound to one place. That I somehow had a share of everything. Well, it is very difficult to explain and I am somebody who knows how to put things into words. I'm trying but I'm always reaching my limits. But what the experience has done to me, it's permanent. It's made me extremely relaxed. I'm sure that if I hadn't had this experience, I would have had a different attitude towards things. I don't know what it would have been like but I'd imagine I would have been more agitated. I am more relaxed. And there are certain situations where I say, I don't know why these things happen. I'm confronted with a lot of suffering in my job. Well, I don't want to say pious empty words like there is a reason for all of this. But I am certain that there are answers to our questions. But I don't want to make it sound too pious because that wouldn't be my thing. I also have a lot of questions regarding to what religion can say in general. Did you feel the need to speak with other people about that? In or outside of the church? Well, I didn't really feel the need to exchange my thoughts because it was almost like a very intimate experience. It would have been very difficult for me. It was the other way around. There once was a woman in her deathbed who needed me because of my occupation. And she spoke to me. She told me about her own near-death experience and I was listening to her. At that point, I reflected on my experience and thought, this woman has experienced this too. I was briefly close to saying, I know, and I didn't do it in the end. It wouldn't have been helpful in this situation, but I walked out of there. I still remember this to this day. I said, look, she's reported this in a similar way. She was stammering as much as me now, she said. I can't say how it was if I say, I know, I didn't say it correctly five minutes later. And there's such a suffering due to this untranslatability that this woman was struggling with the same problem. And I thought, you see, this helped me to move forward and say, come on, it's time to deal with this particular day and this strange and unexplainable experience. People who have had a near-death experience often report that their relationship to religion and religiosity changed after the event. They are in some ways more religious, but it's a different form of religiosity, which is less denominational. What was it like in your case? To what extent has this experience affected your life as a theologian? The word vastness. Well, I mean, if we claim that ourselves, it's maybe always a bit questionable. But all those denominations or religions on this side of reality that we try to put into constructions of thought, it's lost its importance to me. I had already believed it before, but I hadn't experienced that this faith is true. But if I'd compare this with an image, this experience demonstrates that everything is a lot bigger, a lot vaster, a lot more universal and that it affects all of us. It's probably just very little. Can I say it like that? But I don't want to be too cautious. I'll just say it. Faith is a crutch for this side of the world. It helps us to walk. For me, it's the Christian belief system, whether it is Catholic or Lutheran. Well, I believe these two denominations have so many common features and not many proper differences anyway. They never played a big role to me anyway. Faith is just a walking aid and I won't need this walking aid anymore, this crutch. That's what I connect with in this experience. And I probably wouldn't have been able to live in the same way and I may not have been able to accept it in the same way if I hadn't had this accident. Have you mentioned or used your experience, even if it was just subtly, in one of your church services? I tried it once, but it didn't work out. I didn't write down a sermon and read it out loud, but I mentioned it. Well, I tried to explain it with the help of an Easter experience. That life continues even though somebody is dead in our understanding, which is actually the core of the Christian belief system. We've struggled for thousands of years to find images. And then I just put aside the common images and that what other people have said and what is commonly known. And I said, and by the way, dear Parish, I'm not telling you that as somebody who has to believe in it because I've read it, but because I've experienced it myself. It's a very personal story. I don't know if I'm able to tell you about it. And the hall went silent. That was already quite good. And then I tried to tell that life is a lot more than we think it is. That's no big news, but I tried to tell it from a personal viewpoint. And then I realized that some were thinking, ah, that's very interesting. And others were like, well, now you're talking about something I can't quite follow. Where's your concept? What's the point you want to make? I can't really say, but after this attempt, I mentioned that I'd had a near-death experience once more. Although I don't know near-death experience, the term doesn't really quite fit. It's more like, but again, a vision sounds more like as if I'd smoked something. It's not the proper word either. It's an experience and it's an experience at a certain point. And I said, I made this experience. And sometimes I reassure people as part of my job when they ask, do I need to be scared? And I answer them. No, not at all. I'm also certain that what I've experienced is something that applies to everybody. Nobody could talk me out of that. But it's got nothing to do with the experience that you could have as a pious Christian. That you might suddenly meet Jesus or that Mary appears in front of you. In my case, this didn't happen. All those things could have possibly happened, but that wouldn't have fit into my vision, my experience. It was completely different. It was way better. Well, all those ideas that you might come up with, especially in my occupation, you're often confronted with the question of what happens after death, what counts? What should I take into consideration? These things are all crutches and additions, somewhat my own attempts to walk. I won't need my legs to walk anymore. By the way, physicality. I was there without my body. I was more than just myself but without my body. Just try to explain that to somebody. How are they supposed to grasp this? Alright, I tried to talk about my experience and I failed miserably. Nevertheless, this experience has played such a big role in my life that I think it affects and shines through all my words and all my attempts to be a good human being, a good Christian, a good pastoral worker. In the church tradition, spiritual experiences have always played an important role. At the same time, it's also caused a sort of gap between those deeply formative experiences and the established doctrine and the worldview connected to it. According to your opinion, what would be the best way to deal with near-death experiences? Is the church the right place to do that? Well, if you can't talk about this in the church, where else could it be possible? In our company, so to speak, everything is about things that cannot be put into words. If there are people who use too many words or repeat things over and over again or also regarding this side of the world, in these cases I get the impression it's not about the church or faith anymore. Sometimes I ask myself, why are we so cautious to talk about near-death experiences to society? I have. I've been a priest for 24 years and I've met several people who've got such a gift in their lives and I know it's just the tip of the iceberg. I am in this field of occupation. I'm a bit in between things. I'm convinced that there are certain grades of experiences, that life is a lot bigger than we think. And I truly wished I'd overcome this speechlessness. I can definitely understand, also from my experience, if people say, I can't talk about it. For me personally, that's also the case in my faith. Faith moves something internally. It's so intimate. I can't and I don't need to put it into words. It's just there. It carries. Due to this experience, I'm carried through life more existentially, more than by praying, studying or fabricating something myself with great effort. Faith is closely related to the whole field of near-death experience and I'm asking myself, why shouldn't we encourage people to talk about it? It is what it's all about. Unfortunately for many people, faith is just the conservation of certain ideas and anything that doesn't fit is more or less harshly judged. There are, for example, so-called devout believers who call near-death experiences demonic influences or reflections of the devil. What would you respond to such claims? There was nothing demonic in my experience. However, I also recognize that there is something out there that isn't good. But this dualism of heaven and hell, God and the devil, well, I think these are the ideas you're talking about. Those ideas are pretty childish. If I believe appropriately, the more mature my faith becomes. When I manage to rescue my faith and transfer it to my adult life, then it will turn into a free belief that can think freely also via denominational and religious dogmas. Freedom. Faith tolerates freedom. Mature might have a bit more of a negative connotation when I'm talking about a mature faith. Jesus says, when I don't believe the children and children may be able to believe more likely. But many of us don't make the jump from a childlike faith, which is still quite simple to a faith that is reformed, so to speak. They fall into a gap. The easier the better and the freer the deeper the faith. And the institution we connect with faith, well, I'm sitting here wearing clerical clothes and I've got a post in the church. The institution that we connect with faith is an addition, a crutch, a walking aid. But there is, maybe we are servants of a mystery and we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously. We shouldn't prioritize ourselves too much because one of the main aims of the church, denomination and religion are to be a companion into a world that is going to surprise us. And if we are against this too much, I'd have the impression that it's not about God anymore. It's about ourselves. We do have ideas. We were also given an epiphany. But the reality we're living towards is a lot bigger than we can imagine. But that's also been a long tradition. The Catholic Church often mentions these things through saints who said, it's completely different. And that's also been my experience. It's completely different. It's a lot better. And nothing can go wrong. If I want to summarize this whole jumble, we're talking about 20 years of thinking and processing. If I could be able to summarize this in one sentence, a sentence that carries weight. Other sentences, however, seem very weird to me afterwards. Nothing can go wrong. And what does this mean? Your life? Of course I know, due to my job, I'm confronted with cases where things go wrong badly. And that there are things that cannot be answered. That you might ask yourself, where is God? There cannot be a God. Thinking about God as a person. Well, that's all very difficult. But in the end, I can still sum it up as, nothing can go wrong. And this is life-changing. It is. Well, I can't just keep silent about it. Near-death experiences, or let's also call them close-to-life experiences, lead to a more mature faith. Is it possible to summarize it like that? Yes, that was clear. We wonder about certain things. The things we know are just a drop. But what we don't know is as big as an ocean. But that's a saying that is not unknown. I could have read this somewhere, as somebody who chooses to believe in this sort of thing, and somebody who likes this image. However, I did experience it. And that's not just an interpretation I came up with afterwards. It's not an attempt to create a memory. It's an experience that changed me. I wish I was able to talk better about it, but somehow it's just not really possible. Because such things cannot be put into words. We know that. If I hadn't spoken to anybody, I wouldn't have dealt with my own experience. Thus, I'm aware of the difficulty of doing that. It's way easier not to think about it. It's like a rabbit hole. Behind this rabbit hole, everything is completely different, like in Alice in Wonderland. But as a priest of the church, I know that many people make this experience. I assume that it's more than 10%. I think that it's an experience many people have encountered, an experience carried in their hearts, that is not talked about. And speaking about my own experience, if I hadn't got into this little push caused by a benedictive conversation, it would have been covered and I would have missed the most important thing in my life. Thus, I'd like to encourage people. People, talk about it. I know it's very difficult. I couldn't do it for years and I'm stammering even now. Of course I'm dissatisfied with every word that I'm trying to use because it's words and words are not enough. Language is not enough. But I am convinced many people have received this gift. They have received something that's more than what we read about during our lives. Hold on to it. It's valuable. It's got a huge value, although it is difficult to try and confront something that cannot be explained in words. But what are words? They are a facade and reality is behind them. Mr. Lampe, thank you very much for sharing your experience and thoughts with us. All the best and thank you very much for giving this interview.