The Big N.O. Podcast - S1, Ep1 - Will Poulter

I literally just had my hair cut and I'm like, oh, this is my hair. But as long as that's not visible on camera, will you let me know if I look like I'm molting? We're alright. Welcome everybody to the Big No Podcast. I'm your host, Pamela O'Cooley, and today I'm with an amazing young man, Will Porter. You will recognise him. He's been on our screen for many years. He is a talented actor, he's an activist, he's a general awesome human being. And I have the pleasure of speaking to him today about his failures, his setbacks, and how he turned those no's into the next opportunity. So welcome, Will Porter. Thank you so much for having me on. It's an absolute pleasure. So would you like to tell us a little bit about how you came into the whole acting industry? Was that by choice? Was it kind of fell into it? How did that happen? Yeah, it was an interesting one. For as long as I can remember, I had an inbuilt fear of failure because everything around me at school pointed towards the fact that I wouldn't succeed. So nothing that my family ever did or told me really instilled that fear. It was more that I found myself in an environment, and this is no real fault of the school either, where I just didn't really fit. Because according to all the academic metrics and the standard measures of what is intelligent, I wasn't. I wasn't getting grades. I wasn't good in exams. I didn't have test technique. I didn't necessarily memorize information well, unless it was food related. I can memorize menus today. I can take one look at a menu and tell you everything in it. But all of these things meant that I felt somewhat trapped at school. And I developed a lot of anxiety very early on. I joke with my mum that I had a quarter-life crisis. Because at the age of 12, 13, I was already in a full-on panic about what I was going to do when I left school. I didn't see any signs that there was even an opportunity for me to succeed at anything because I just felt like a failure of everything. And drama and performance, it was kind of the one thing that I naturally gravitated towards that I truly loved. And I suppose it was the one thing that at least I was told by other people that I was half-decent at. And I got very, very lucky, is the truth of the matter, that I had an opportunity come my way very early on. When I was 12 years old, a casting director came round to our school, was looking to cast a kid in a movie. I think I got very lucky purely because I looked like what they were looking for. I kind of matched the vision that they had for the character. And then I kind of just kept slipping through the net of the audition process. And I was also obviously very fortunate that my parents were supportive of that. They're in the medical field, mum's a nurse, dad's a professor of cardiology. You know, it's like their son being an actor was a bit like their son wanting to be an astronaut. It was a bit of a mad pipe dream. But that was my first opportunity. And then with that, I think I gained a new perspective on school and on life in general. I felt very lucky that I found my purpose early on. And then school became something where I thought, OK, this is what I want to do. I've engaged with my passion. I've found something I can potentially do for a long time, potentially, if it goes well. So school kind of became my plan B and I was OK with that. And I actually worked harder because maybe the fear of failure was less after that point. Because I felt like I'd already succeeded in just finding something that I was really passionate about. Do you still get nervous? Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah, I really do. It's interesting, when I was performing or acting, not so much. After I got my first lines out or whatever, I'd be OK. But I would get nervous. Nowadays, you know, public speaking in front of ten people, I'll get nervous. You know, as a kid playing sport, I used to throw up before games. I used to be absolutely paralysed with fear playing sport. But acting, not as much. And I think I was braver when I was a kid than I am now, definitely. Really? Yeah, yeah, definitely. In that respect, in terms of getting up in front of people and performing. I found something the other day. Oh yeah? I've got my phone here because I had to screenshot. It's a quote from you, apparently. Oh gosh. And I was in hysterics, so... Oh my gosh, another. I quote, It's difficult to tell whether people are looking at you because they recognise you from your work or just because you're six foot three inches and have the eyebrows of Satan. It's difficult to distinguish between the two. So we're going to dissect this. Yeah, right. So let's talk about the eyebrows first. The Satan eyebrows. Yeah. I think when it comes... Actually, no, I'm going to be silent. You tell me about your eyebrows. How do you feel about the eyebrows? When I was younger, self-deprecating humour was something that I naturally felt comfortable with. Felt totally fine doing it, had no issue with it. I think one thing I didn't necessarily anticipate is that in engaging in the same kind of tactics for the purpose of being funny, the narrative would sort of run away from me. And then I think I sort of blinked and suddenly social media was kind of taking pop shots at me or people were kind of mocking me online without me sort of being in control of it. And you sort of have to kind of accept that you relinquish that control. People are free to say whatever they want. But, oh my gosh, the eyebrows thing is kind of minor to me. I mean, that's like, yeah, yeah, that bounces off the thick skin. But it's true because I get recognised a disproportionate amount. Like, I don't think I get recognised a lot because I've done a tonne of work. I've got friends who've done way, way more stuff than me. I just think I get recognised because I've just kind of got one of those faces and I'm quite lanky. So it's quite hard to kind of go about the world without sort of being recognised a lot. And quite often, people don't know what it's from or it's not because they have any idea of who I am. And they're just kind of staring like they recognise that face. How does that feel when you know that someone is staring at you and they're trying to figure out, is it him? Or where's he from? Or I recognise those eyebrows? Yeah, it's weird. I mean, it's never not been odd. And I think that's also probably something I need to kind of continue to do some work on because for a while, I think it really exacerbated my anxiety in public spaces. It still can. It can make navigating the world sort of scarier than I'd like it to be. I'm naturally quite anxious and then having people recognise you or sometimes the way that people conduct themselves in those scenarios isn't ideal. But then I appreciate that people kind of forget themselves in those moments and are liable to misrepresent themselves. So that's okay. So I really want to know, because obviously this podcast is all about how people have faced adversity or setbacks in their life and they've had those rejections, whether it's from relationships or business, career, whatever it is. And that hurts. It doesn't matter what kind of person you are, whether you're the most confident person in the world, that rejection, that no, it stings. I mean, it stings you as a child and even as an adult. But how do we kind of overcome that? How do we kind of seek out the next opportunity? So I would really love to know about any times in your life where you've had that rejection, you've had that no or constant no, how you felt in the moment and how you kind of overcame those. Yeah, I think I was always a very sensitive child as well. And from as early as I can remember, I always kind of was conscious of having mental health issues before I was even able to kind of identify what anxiety was or what depression was, et cetera, or before I actually got diagnosed with anything. So that definitely textured my experience. And I'm also grown increasingly aware of just how fortunate I've been, you know, and how privileged I am in so many respects. So that has, of course, you know, made my journey easier in lots of ways. But when you choose the profession of an actor, while there are a lot of benefits that come with that, rejection is something that you kind of just have to, you kind of just have to make friends with. And I'm not even sure I'm even necessarily there. You know, I think the inner child still sometimes kind of takes over when I, you know, fall head over heels with the prospect of playing a character or I become too romantically attached to a project or a script or whatever, you know. I still need to learn not to do that. And I have people who guide me and offer me really good counsel in that respect. But rejection is just part and parcel of the job, you know. I guess I've been auditioning since I was 12, and I'm now 29. So, you know, coming up on 18 years down the line, I still... Sometimes I find it difficult to kind of accept those losses and not take them hugely personally. And, gosh, there are, I mean, countless examples. I mean, a number of times I thought about quitting acting. Really? Only because I just... I went so long without working and I got so scared. I think old fears probably returned, in a sense. Like, old fears about actually not being able to kind of do it sustainably, you know, for the purpose of it being my, like, career. Yeah, there were a number of times I thought about quitting. And what would you have done instead of acting, then? I've always said I'd like to have been a chef. Clearly. The whole food. The whole food, yeah. That makes sense. But I'm better at eating than I am at cooking. That's the issue. And the other thing that's an issue regarding my ambitions as a chef is I struggle with time management, which I'm going to partly blame on my dyspraxia, but we can come back to that. And I struggle with multitasking. Yeah. So the notion of sort of having, you know, five pans on the hob and three orders coming in and that already, even just saying that out loud kind of scares me. But, yeah, so there have been a number of occasions kind of looking back where the rejection has taken me to a point where you just begin to question whether you're... Good enough. ..you know, whether you're good enough. Yeah, exactly. And whether you can do it. And there are a number of those. That's tough because you're in a really competitive industry where, I mean, I'm not an actor, but I imagine, like, you know, you get the script, you go for audition and you do the lines and then do they tell you straight away that you've got it or you haven't got it or they say, like, come back for another audition? What's the whole process like? Because I imagine it's quite... You have to be quite thick-skinned to go through that. Yeah, yeah, I think you do have to develop that. And it's kind of ironic because I think a lot of people that find themselves going into acting, they are naturally quite sensitive. They have kind of access to their own sort of emotional make-up that serves them on the one hand because it allows them to play different characters and explore, you know, different kind of parts of the emotional spectrum while they're working. Yeah. But then it's also to their detriment because you take rejection harder, you know. But the process, you know, it shakes down in a number of different ways. Sometimes you don't hear back anything and you're just anxiously wondering whether you... You just never hear... I've had that before where you just never hear back. I've been in scenarios where I've had directors shake my hand and say, ''Congratulations, you've got the job. I'll see you on set.'' And then, like, a week later, I've got an email from someone who works for them to say they've cast someone else. That's happened. Oh, that's going to sting. That's tough. Yeah. But more often than not, you know, people kind of behave professionally and you're told, you know, more often than not for one reason or another that it isn't for you. And it's on you to realise that you're in the business of, you know, of applying for jobs, you know, on a regular basis. Yeah. And so you do have to develop, as you say, a bit of a thick skin. One of the questions that I sent to you before this interview today is I wanted to know about your childhood and I wanted to know about books that kind of evoked those strong emotions when you were growing up. As an author, a children's author, I know the power of books and how they can change someone's life. So would you like to tell us what was your favourite childhood book growing up? Yeah, this was a fun one, actually. It's called Mama Toro, the Peach Boy. Really creative, interesting story about this young Japanese boy who is born inside of a peach and is tasked with going on an adventure by his family alone. It's like a big sort of test of his kind of maturity. And the thing that really sticks out in my head is him being given these hot, fluffy donuts to take with him. That was the thing, that was the lasting image. I was a greedy child and still a greedy human being, just in general. And actually, a common denominator across all the books I really enjoyed seemed to be food. I couldn't think of a single book that didn't have some kind of food reference. And there was something, as a young kid, I think, seeing another young person engage in this maturity journey that was so exciting. And I think I was willing to engage with it on a fantastical, fictional level. Because separation anxiety would have meant I probably would have got ten yards from my own home before I turned around. But seeing this kid bravely embark on this journey on his own and interact with, if I remember correctly, different animals along the way, it was really, really inspiring. And I can just... I mean, you'll know this yourself, but kids are just prepared to listen to the same story over and over and over again, particularly if it's a good one. And I think I heard it a thousand times. So one question I really love is, you've probably been asked this or you've probably heard it, what advice would you give to your younger self? But we're going to flip it. So if Will's younger self was right here now, what would he say to you? Ah, wow, that is cool. Thanks. That is cool. Because I think it's very easy as an adult to tell your younger self the advice because you've gone through it and you've lived it. Right, and hindsight's 20-20. Exactly. But your younger self, who hasn't lived through all of that yet and is still excited about life or worried about certain things, what would Will say to you now? This is the thing is, I think if I'm completely honest, I think the younger me would still be so consumed with worry that I think the younger me would say, kind of don't lose grip on what you have right now. Don't lose sight of how lucky you are. This is everything you ever wanted as a kid or as me. And don't let it go. Don't let up. Keep working your hardest. And I don't know whether I necessarily disagree all that much. Like if I was talking to my younger self, like adult to younger self, I don't know if I think about it in the traditional format of that question, I don't know if I would disagree with that all that much. But the thing I would add now with the hindsight of 2020, I think is to try and take care of myself in the process. Because the young person, I think the young me was so consumed by the fear of failure and I was so busy trying not to fail that I didn't really take stock of where I was potentially succeeding or really kind of enjoying the moment and taking care of myself in between whatever the next job was or role. So let's talk about people around you because I think that you're quite a private person. I suppose so, yeah. Social media, how do you feel about that? Love-hate relationship? It terrifies me. I mean, listen, I think some people use social media wonderfully and I think it can be a really powerful tool. It's How We Connected, for example. There are a number of amazing relationships. Do you actually remember How We Connected? Twitter? Yeah, and do you remember what message I sent you to get you to come and read my book? I'm trying to remember now. It was around Buster Finds His Bee. Yeah, so my children's book, Buster Finds His Bee, I was like, I want Will Porter to read it because I think you've got such a lovely tone to your voice. We'd been connecting via Twitter and things like that and I thought, I'm just going to ask because if you don't ask, you're never going to know. So I thought, I have to make it a little bit more exciting as opposed to like, can you just read my book? So you probably won't remember this. I sent you a voice note attached to this video clip. You know Shrek, the film Shrek? Yes. You know the cat? Yes. And they have all these memes with the cat and his eyes are really big and he looks really sad. Yes. So I used that picture of the cat with the big eyes and then I sent you a voice note over it. I remember this now. Saying, please can you do this for me? Yes. If you don't do this, you're a robot basically. I was like, please can you do it for me? And then I didn't hear from you for about three months and I was like, perfect, great. Oh no. And literally every day I would... I'm so glad I'm not doing this. Yeah, you are. It's okay, it's fine. You know this by now. And every day I was checking these emails and thinking, he's not got back to me. Oh, this is really embarrassing. This is really embarrassing. And then I literally went into my DM to try and delete the message. No. And then I saw you typing. I was like, oh my God. No way. And for about ten minutes, I was just waiting for this message to come through. And then you were like, yeah, sure. And that was it. I was like, that's it. That's amazing. Brilliant. And we did that quite recently. Yeah, we did that quite recently. I thought that was amazing. But I think it's one of those things where, again, I was just like, I was scared. I was like, this isn't a Hollywood actor. He is really busy. Although, I've never identified as a Hollywood actor because I grew up in West London. So it's so funny when people are like, Hollywood actor. I'm like, I've never lived in Hollywood and I really don't feel like I belong there. Well, according to Google, you are a Hollywood. On Wikipedia, you are a Hollywood actor. So take it if you want it. But yeah, I was so over the mood when you said yes. And I think I spoke to Alex, my husband, that night. And he said something to me that, you know, he's a clever guy, Alex is. But he said something to me like, Sure, he did all the animation of the book. Yeah, and I was like, why would he not say yes? He's just a human being. So he's going to do it if he wants to do it. And if he doesn't want to do it, he won't do it. It's got nothing to do whether he's an actor or not. It's whether he wants to do it or not. I was like, all right, okay. But I think it is like sourcing out those opportunities, isn't it? It's like, I want to do something. I want to collaborate with this person because his values are aligned with mine. And I think he's a really cool guy. And it just so happened that Universe was on my side that day. And it happened. So that was brilliant. Well, I'm so glad it did. And that, I think, is an example of where social media is really great. You know, where it does connect people. And not just people whose interests are aligned. Because I think it's really important that social media doesn't erode at the opportunity to learn from people with other kind of opinions or whatever. Unfortunately, I think the culture of social media, largely speaking, fosters arguments rather than healthy debates or the opportunity to really learn. I think people kind of tend to get siloed a little bit. And then, for me, it's less the town square where the important social issues are discussed, as it was recently described by the new owner of Twitter. And it actually more resembles a series of fences with people kind of yelling at each other over the fence without even knowing what the person on the other side of the fence looks like. In lots of ways, it is a threat to people's mental health. For me, it's been really important to kind of view social media as something that, while it's incredibly influential and sort of seemingly ever-present, it's a party that you don't have to go to. And you don't have to spend the entire time at that party. There's an invite. You can dip in. And you can leave at any point. I like that. And come back at any point. But it's not this 24-hour rave that you have to be at all times. For the sake of my own mental health, I've had to look at it that way. And I've had to develop a relationship with it whereby I can take care of myself and also feel good about the way that I'm engaging with it. Also, for me, if I'm being completely honest, my instincts don't lead me towards self-care. And the concepts of self-care and self-love, honestly, the terminology struck me as a bit cheesy. I was like, self-love? I don't know about that. I get the concept of loving other people, but turning that inwards just feels a bit selfish. And it's interesting. I think somewhere along my mental health journey, I also came to terms with the fact that while it sometimes goes against your instincts to straightaway help other people or measure yourself according to what kind of impact you're making on others, coming to the realisation that you can't actually take care of someone else or you can't outwardly project love, positivity, etc., unless you've given it to yourself in the first place. Unless your cup is full, you can't fill up anyone else's. That was a huge moment of realisation to me. And again, I have not realised the answer. Far from completed it. But I think that notion of starting with yourself so that you have enough to be able to give outwardly has been a really valuable lesson. Yeah. And I think when it comes to that self-love, self-care, it looks different for every single person. Absolutely. And I think we shouldn't be so hung up on thinking that self-care means yoga and green juices and meditation. If that's not your jam, then you don't do it. 100%. And I think you have to come up with your own description of what it means to you. Absolutely. And then apply that day to day. Absolutely. Yeah, sometimes it's a good book and fluffy doughnuts. There's the food again! There you go. Brilliant. So 18 years in, what changes would you like to see made within your industry? If I could give you a magic wand now, and I'm going to say you can change whatever you want in this industry, whether it's to benefit you, to benefit others who are climbing that ladder, what would you like to see changed? We've spoken about this before, and obviously with Just Like Me books, you're actively making these changes as far as making sure that media, content, art is championing inclusivity and representation. And that's something that I love seeing signs of that within our industry. I think it's growing, at least in front of the camera and on screen. We're seeing more inclusivity and representation, and that's fantastic. I think that needs to continue behind the camera as well, all the way up the ladder, so to speak, so that the people empowered with making the big decisions also reflect those same efforts to be inclusive and representative. I'd love to see mental health destigmatised fully. I'd love to see mental health get the respect that physical health gets, because I really can't point to any reason for it other than the stigma that currently exists. For that to be properly destigmatised would be great. Again, I think we're seeing signs of it. I really do think there's massive progress being made and there's some wonderful work being done across a number of different mediums, in literature, in film, in television, in the theatre world. But if I could wave my magic wand and do it like that, that would be something. I love that. I think mental health, we are hearing from people from all different backgrounds and ages and ethnicities talking about it, because it's something that collectively, universally affects everybody, regardless of their age and their gender and their socioeconomic background. But again, I feel like... I was talking about this to a friend the other day, and you know how with this whole social media era that we're in, I think that sometimes we can find it really easy to type a hashtag, like, you know, and then we leave it at that. And we feel like we've done our bit, when in reality, that is the easiest thing that we could possibly do. The other things that we should be doing, in my humble opinion, is, you know, when you speak to your friend and you say, hi, how are you doing? And they go, I'm fine. And you go, no, are you really OK? You ask the question again. Because we're so used to saying things like, yeah, I'm fine, I'm cool. And then you move on to a new subject, like, do you want to go out? Do you want to do this? And blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And we're in this age where everything just feels really rushed all the time. Do you know what I mean? Like, we don't spend enough time actually having these long conversations with people, finding out about their backgrounds, finding out about what's going on in their life at the moment. Yeah. And I feel like we need to be having more of these conversations, also at a really young age as well. Yes, absolutely. You know, when your child comes back home and you say, how was your day? And they go, fine. And then you leave it at that. Right, right, right. Yeah. I just, yeah, I feel like we have got so much work to do. I think there's amazing people, yourself included. The way that you use your fame and your platform for, you know, anti-bullying and, you know, you've been a great supporter of the work that I do as well. You work with the Black curriculum. Do you know what I mean? I think this is great. And it's just getting people to have these conversations and knowing that we don't necessarily have to have the answer. I think we're constantly scared that we have to fix somebody or say the right thing. And in reality, we just need to listen. Right, right. Yeah, exactly. The power of listening, 100%. And engaging in those conversations. Yeah. I think that's so true. And what you said about, you know, those kind of automatic responses to how you're doing. Yeah, fine. We all do it, though, don't we? We just do it. It's like a grain doing it. Yeah, exactly. And I think we were also somewhat kind of induction to believe that if you went any deeper, it would be kind of odd. Which I totally understand. There's a book that I read recently called Permission to Feel by a guy called Mark Brackett. And about halfway through it, and he made the point in this book, he says exactly that, that, you know, people ask people how they are multiple times every day. But how often do you actually get the honest answer? And you don't want to burden someone or you might not, you know, reveal exactly what's going on because of, you know, I don't know, an issue with time or whatever it is. There's a million different excuses for not really saying how you feel or reasons, but there would be major, I think, progress made potentially if now and again people actually took that opportunity, you know, or felt if the stigma wasn't the way that it is, if people actually took that opportunity to really say how they were feeling. Yeah. And then they find themselves opposite someone who may also be able to share something and suddenly there's a conversation that can potentially lead to kind of some version of healing. Yeah, definitely. Which is really nice to think about. Do you still remember the rap, the TLC rap from Meet the Millers? Do you still remember it? Honestly, I don't think I do. I have to say, that's probably one of your best performances. But it is brilliant. Oh, that's very kind. It is brilliant. Yeah, I probably do, but I retired from rap, which the world is very glad for. I retired from rap the moment we got that scene in the camera. If nobody has seen this, you have to go on YouTube. There's lots of clips of it on YouTube. And Will is doing the TLC Waterfalls, the rap section, and he does it epically. Very kind. Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. So yeah, definitely check that out. Okay, and final question. I can't believe we're already at the final question. It's gone so quick, right? So again, this is all about next opportunities. I would like you to connect me to the next opportunity. So therefore, can you think of somebody who you would love to be a guest on the Big No podcast? Don't tell the name, but just give me your reasons why you would like me to connect with them. The person I had in mind would be fantastic for this podcast because, like you, they also identified something within the world of education, shall we say, that directly impacts young people, which could be improved in the name of kindness and inclusivity. And they're also a very, very inspirational figure. Also someone I have a fair amount of contact with on social media, someone who also knows I'm bad with my DMs, but also a friend and someone who is really, really, I think, important regarding so many of the subjects we discuss, like mental health, like empowering young people and listening to them, like trying to better the school experience and those kind of formative years. And this person's done a lot of work and continues to do a lot of work to make that better and to make school a safer and happier place. And it's someone who is actively doing work to kind of realise that opportunity. And, you know, he has a lot of no's as well and has had a lot of setbacks, but perseveres nonetheless. Well, we'll see if we can make it happen. I'm excited for it. Thank you so much for today. I've had so much fun. You have been amazing. You have, like I said, graced our screens, worked with amazing people. And I'm going to quote you. You have said that you have had many pinch-me moments in your career, and this is definitely a pinch-me moment. Oh, fantastic. That's so sweet. That's so sweet. I know, I know. But no, seriously, thank you. It's been an honour, and thank you for being on the Big No podcast. Thank you. Will Porter! Thank you very much. Thank you, everybody.