America faces many threats including at our border

thank you for doing this thank you and for speaking in the bipartisan way you're sitting down with us today um how would you both Define the greatest national security threat facing our country right now well I would Define the immediate threat of making sure we push back Putin's aggressive behavior in Ukraine that we try to resolve the circumstance in Gaza where we can eliminate Hamas but also recognize the humanitarian challenge but frankly over a longer term the bigger challenge I think remains China uh we've never had a nation of equivalent economic size and they are investing in technology domain after technology domain uh where they hope to not only be number one but frankly dominate the field and I think Marco and I um and our committee has really been at the Leading Edge of trying to expose that whether it was 5G or whether it was challenges around Tik Tok or the the need to make sure we bring the sem conductor industry back but that China long-term threat yeah I think in a broader sense I would say that the world is uh you know countries around the world have determined the unipolar world is over and they seek to challenge it in China's case they want to if not replace at least be an alternative to an American lead system that's been in place certainly since the end of the Cold War and even predating back to the end of the second world war the Russians argue that they're a great power who are who deserve to have buffer Nations outside of their borders that they have control over hence you know they want want a bunch of bell ruses that's what they want Ukraine to become and other places like that and um and then Iran wants to be they want to export the Islamic revolution throughout the Middle East and they already have proxies operating inside of Lebanon Syria and Iraq they want to threaten Jordan Bahrain and and ultimately uh make Israel an unlivable place and and and have a regional dominance in that way and then you got North Korea which is increasingly becoming aggressive um in in the way it's responding to uh to South Korea in both rhetoric and actions so all these are interrelated it's a challenge to the world order uh and and it and it's LED this loose Coalition of countries uh who and sometimes work in concert to to challenge not just America but our alliances and I think what Arco just said is these authoritarian regimes are more closely aligned than they were even five years ago on the immediate issue of the Middle East Ramadan begins this Sunday there's concerns that because of the high degree of tension in the region a spark could really lead to an explosion um through the US National Security lens How concerned are you about the rising risk to us interests in the Middle East because of the close alliance with Israel's war in Gaza well I think the risk is is pre-existing obviously now we have active shooting going on and people back and forth that always leads Tois miscalculation risks and in some cases um hostility like we've seen already from the houthis out of Yemen the goal I think it's a mistake to view October 7th simply through the lens of the Palestinian Israeli question I think the reason why Hamas was armed equipped and felt the confidence is this broader narrative or this broader objective that Iran has to drive the us out of the region it is why they're conducting attacks in Iraq and Syria they want a US troop presence out of the region completely should stay huh do you believe that those 2500 troops in the region should stay I do and the reason why I believe that is because they are not only there on a counter Isis Mission let's not forget that group is still existing and it's still a threat but because they sit the reason why Iran wants us out of there is that are we are stationed at key points that tie Damascus uh and and and Baghdad and and and all these supply routes that Iran wants to dominate if we were gone these proxy groups would now be at the border of Jordan be able to threaten Jordan and ultimately threaten Israel as a result but I am concerned I mean whether it's Hezbollah and and up in the North of Israel whether it's what's happening in Gaza whether it's what's happening with Yemen the the risk of uh of conflict is very real it's a dangerous and tenuous situation there's no doubt about it President Biden's reviewing whether to keep the those troops in Iraq and I'll be anxious to see what he says I do think though do you think they should stay I think in terms of the current basis yes um because as long as we've got these Iranian backed uh militias and others you promoting um a level of violence and I agree with Marco in terms of trying to push us out but I also think potentially out of this enormous tragedy the tragedy of October 7th and now the humanitarian tragedy of 30,000 Palestinians killed you got to look at some level of optimism Israel had already aligned with a number of the Sunni states in the region I I was recently in Saudi Arabia I think they would like to find some level of Peace uh post the Gaza conflict um with Israel a stronger defense relationship with the United States um I do think we need to acknowledge the the Shia driven effort to not only push us out but also undermine the Sunni states in the region and there could be an opportunity for a grander Alliance but that will mean the the violence has to stop and you know I think we both have a lot of respect for Bill Burns the CIA director who has been doing yman work trying to negotiate um this hostage exchange which would lead to at least uh that short-term cease fire President Biden uh wants to establish a port in Gaza to try to bring humanitarian Aid in it's not exactly clear the cost the US military role um do you think that is a good decision and given what has happened this tragic incident recently with a hundred civilians killed some of them shot by Israeli soldiers according to the IDF because they were clamoring for food um do you see any clear evidence of who is to blame for that violence that day I don't have the after action report but I do think this I mean remember United States has been largest single donor to humanitarian efforts for years in the region and I think it is important that we continue to show that I mean the airlift approach is more symbolic than actually getting relief to most folks but the idea and I've discussed this with some of the folks in the administration of using Cyprus as a staging point where the aid can be checked to make sure nothing else gets in the potential then of having that Aid move from Cyprus to a place where we can set up the equivalent of a field hospital um that could help provide the particularly in North Caza the humanitarian relief that is both the right thing to do and I think the right thing to do in terms of particularly as we go into Ramadan hopefully lowering some of the tension but also shows America's concern um for some of the humanitarian costs in the region I I would just add one thing to this and that is that it's important to understand why everybody's in favor of helping innocent civilians who are caught in the crossfire of any conflict I think it's Point understand the reason why Aid can't get to them and the and the principal reason why is Hamas has built this system of tunnels it's expensive I mean I don't care if they got a great deal on the concrete it's expensive to build this extensive system of tunnels millions of dollars that's money that could have gone to create an economy to feed people to build hospitals and and serve civilians they didn't do it and there's real concern and I think very legitimate reason to believe that any Aid that goes in there will be grabbed by Hamas used for their purposes at the expense of the civilian population Hamas has a track record of zero when it comes to caring about the lives of civilians or of society in general they're an entirely War footing that's all they do and um and I I think there's just real concern that real reason to believe that any additional Aid would be taken would go directly to Hamas would be controlled by them you know that the US ambassador David saterfield who's handling that has said uh in written letters to Congress that they have no evidence that Hamas is stealing the aid certainly not defending um Hamas at all but saying that Aid can continue to be push pushed into Gaza without Hamas stealing it respond personally I don't know what he's talking about because how does Hamas get food Hamas does not have an economy Hamas does H everything Hamas gets comes from abroad from Iranians and from what they take I think that the evidence is in place that they have existed as an organization without any means of generating Revenue other than what they are able to capture from in terms of now with the aid getting I think the the food and water and other relief Aid I think it is you got to make sure you have a distribution system um but I think uh I agree with Ambassador safield but let's also step back for a moment and you know I think a lot of the arms food other things that have supported amas was the fact that they have this tunnel Network which is close to 500 kilometers I don't think we any of us fully expected that and they have been able to secure that um the fact that we are 140 days roughly into this Invasion I think most of us even in the region thought the Israeli defense fund uh Defense Forces would be able to take out Hamas 140 days in they basically taken out only about 35% of the H Hamas Fighters and literally have only penetrated less than a third of the tunnel Network um and one of the things and again as I think Marco indicated the extensive network we had we brought in some of our experts and to say if if this was us trying to take out this tunnel Network could we do it quicker more efficiently and candidly the was maybe we could be a bit faster but when Hamas is gruesomely holding the hostages uh to prevent some of the Tak out of the tunnels this is one of the lessons this and I think the lesson of drones in in Ukraine are two of the things in terms of military Doctrine I think that we're going to have to learn from both of these conflicts but but just to button that up I mean when Benjamin Netanyahu the Prime Minister says total Victory is Within Reach weeks away you are not describing total Victory Within have not you're saying the impct meeting with meeting with folks in Israel in the military community in the intelligence Community the idea that you're going to eliminate every Hamas fighter I don't think is a realistic goal MH and you agree with that well I think that it is possible to achieve a situation in which Hamas does not have the capability to do what they did on October 7th that doesn't mean hasah doesn't step in and take over now as a result that doesn't mean that a new Hamas offshoot wouldn't be created this is an ongoing Challenge and at the end the head of this entire snake is the Iranian regime they are the ones that provide the weaponry and the funds there's no Hamas fighter starving to death there's no Hamas leaders starving to death they're all fed they all have medical care and they all have uh all the assistance they need to continue to do the things they do what you don't want is a Hamas that can continue to launch missiles particularly against civilian sites inside of Israel which is the goal here of Iran and that is to make Israel an un livable place so they can drive every Jew out from the river to the Sea and and and dominate the region do I think it's do I think it's possible to degrade Hamas for some period of time and deny them the capability to be able to do that to Israel yes but ongoing and moving forward there'll be challenges because some new group will pop up but and and it's a US National Security risk the longer this goes on is it not well all of in terms of fomenting beyond that I would say that instability understand that one of the things that the Iranians believe is that the one impediment facing them to Regional domination is the presence of the United States in Jordan in Syria in Iraq anywhere they don't want us in that region and they certainly don't want Israel to exist either and so they will continue to Target us until they believe they have driven us completely out of the region and it gives them free hand to then go after Gulf States and ultimately threaten more countries uh in the region starting with Bahrain and Jordan but I I don't think that would be limited to the just those two kingdoms and most of the nation states in that region frankly some of this goes back to the Sunni Shia divide between Iran being Shia and the most of the Gulf State region being Sunni you they are no fans of Iran as well I think they want our continued presence in the region as well and again the fact that Saudi and Israel pre-conflict we're talking about uh diplomatic relations and stronger economic ties um that is only going to come about once peace comes to the region and frankly there has to be a future for the Palestinian people MH I want to move to China if we could uh you identified that as the largest threat last year you told me technology competition would China is the issue of our time just this week uh out in California a Federal indictment was unsealed where software engineer for Google um was charged with transferring artificial intelligence technology to Beijing how far ahead is is the US versus China in AI well first of all remember the FBI uh as of about 6 months ago we're still opening two counter Espionage cases a day against China and one of the things that Senator Rubio and I have done on a bipartisan basis is try to go industry by industry in America and warn them of the potential theft of intellectual property $500 billion do a year the fact that China is investing you I'll talk speak to AI in a moment but in Quantum Computing in BIO a lot of our time spending on on bioengineering and activities China is taking they're trying to on Next Generation energy on small modular nukes uh which is a power source if they can sign up a country for 50 years or 100e contracts I think we need to compete against that on AI it's a little bit I believe a little bit of a better story you know a couple years back when we thought uh the country that had the most data and the most compute and the most Engineers might purely win um that's not proven to be the case the vast majority of innovation is still taking place in this country if you look at all of the major AI companies they're virtually All American uh I don't underestimate China but we have that that Innovative economy uh that that frankly still benefits with us and frankly the Chinese regime is reluctant to allow these large language models to be used by their population because frankly they might find the truth about what the regime has done all the way back to tmen square in 1989 there are reports that China lags the US by about a year is that consistent with I don't know how to characterize the time frame but I would say that's not really the issue per se first of all I we're clearly I think ahead simply because they steal our stuff we're not interested in stealing their stuff so there's a reason why they want our stuff because it's better I think the bigger concern is how it would be utilized and the advantages that it gives them because all of their companies and all the corporations there's no independent companies in China they all must do the bidding of whatever the Chinese Communist Party tells them to do that's the law in China That's the Law as of 2017 and they're supported by government so they can underprice everyone in the marketplace so they can reach a level of proficiency in Ai and deploy it with the support of their government that allows them to basically Corner the market in all kinds of key things you autonomous vehicles additive manufacturing you name it and so these are real advantages the other Advantage they have which drives AI is data they are able to compel and or steal and collect the data of billions of people including their own population but also here in the United States and that data is what feeds Ai and AI models which will allow them to do certain things um good enough to not just threaten our national security but to threaten our economic vibrancy and to put American innovation at a tremendous disadvantage so Huawei is a good example it's not Aid driven they're not the best telecommunication company in the world but because they are supported by the Chinese Communist party they are among the largest in the world and they have dominated market after market because they offer a product that's good enough for a low enough price and a little bribe on the side for your friends in the government and let me let me just add here we we saw as Marco just said you know China on say autonomous vehicles they controlled not only the rare earth minerals but really were the their control came was on the processing of these minerals what I'm afraid of is if you add AI tools with advances in BIO you could have finally breakthroughs that are remarkable now the real Innovation I think many times will stay here but if China builds up the biomanufacturing capability we may innovate but the actual products whether they be drugs whether they be chemical compounds whether it be new sources of energy they could control the manufacturing sector it's again one of the reasons why we need to put those kind of Technology competition in the National Security umbrella well your colleague Ted Cruz said Congress doesn't know what the hell it's doing when it comes to regulating AI is he right I mean you're saying Congress has to do a lot here he's saying it's not really well it's a new area I mean there's there's no doubt that it's a new area that we have to make sure there's two things to keep in mind the first is I still think there's a lot more to learn about how it's going to be applied and where regulation can make sense the other is and we've learned this from other Tech Technologies they develop so they they move innovation in that space moves much faster than the ability of Congress to legislate or regulate and so and and even our agencies so I don't think he's wrong when he says that there still isn't a clear understanding of what it is government can do to build safeguards and then there's the factor that this is borderless I mean at the end of the day that what we may regulate the uses of AI domestically may not apply to some other place that may decide here we won't have those limits so there's a lot to unpack here and I still think Congress is learning we got to do it right and meisten I've spent a lot of time on AI uh and I'm not sure there's a linear relationship between me spending more time and actually getting smarter on the issue it's really hard but I would point out to you know some of my colleagues that idea of we shouldn't put on any guard rails is how we ended up with a social media environment now where I think there are very few Americans that doesn't think from Child bullying to ability to have our elections manipulated with by social media firms and others that putting a few guard rails in place might have made um might have made some sense and my fear on AI and I'm not sure we need whole new legal regimes but let me give you a perfect example the ability for AI tools at speed and scale to manipulate our public markets yeah is unprecedented we may not need new laws we have existing SEC laws but there might be higher penalties for example because the speed and scale which these AI tools could be used for manipulation I think that's not breaking new ground but it is saying our regulatory structure needs to try to keep up and we're always going to be lagging Innovation but that doesn't mean throwing in the towel I would add one more thing about Ai and that is something I hope we can start talking about AI is going to disrupt White Collar jobs jobs that people went and got degrees and even borrowed money to get degrees it's going to disrupt White Collar jobs in a way that de-industrialization and Technology advances and productivity disrupted Blue Collar jobs and we've seen the tumult that's created in societies around the world so we need to start thinking about the economic displacement that will follow the ability of a machine to do the work that it used to take 10 people with Advanced degrees to do and and and that I think that applies to the media increasingly I think it's going to apply it's already applying to Hollywood and and I think there are Industries beyond that where it's going to apply we need to start thinking about some of the disruptions that are coming and one of the things that I know but I just think this is you know we still have a a tax and accounting and Reporting System that still favors investment on a piece of Hardware you buy a computer you get a tax credit you know it's it it's viewed as an asset we don't do near enough to incent investment in human capital to actually make humans stay up and stick up because am Marco is right there is going to be much more massive disruption amongst what was traditionally viewed as knowledge-based jobs that doesn't mean jobs are going to go away but we do need to have a I think a new tax and accounting framework on how we invest in people China's ramping up its military spending absolutely um Senator Rubio you recently voted against the National Security Supplemental that would have sent 5 billion to the Indo Pacific and to help Taiwan why do you think that money can wait well I don't think it should wait I just don't think it should be held hostage on the issue of whether or not we're going to deal with our border and what I think should be attention paid to the border and this is an issue of dis of disagreement among here people in Congress I'm sorry I thought Republicans were insisting that the Border be linked I did but but not but the proposal they put forward would not have secured our border on the contrary it would have allowed you vot voted against the Border deal never voted on the border deal procedurally no it was never voted on procedurally it was withdrawn support the bipartisan because the deal would it would the deal would not have fixed the problem the way you fix the problem is by reversing the executive orders that that President Biden put in place in his first month in office which directly led to this crisis for the first time in American history we have a president that's decided to make the exception the rule no longer detaining people our law is very clear it defines who's allowed to be in our country and it says they should be detained through removal and we stopped doing that we had exceptions you know the do Lama shows up at the board order we're going to let them in exception they turn the exception into the rule and it sent the mess incredbly complex issue in terms of who you can Deport and only 72 hours they can be held in federal facilities and the complications with Venezuela no the law is very clear it says you they need to be detained through removal that's the law of the United States how you apply it is where the differences have come and it's What's led to this crisis you are saying that the aid to Taiwan is being held hostage to the Border but you are saying the Border needs to be handled first help me how are you going to se it's not very complicated it's simple to deal with the threat you're saying I'll tell you what if we would have done a bill that would have voted for the money to Taiwan and the Indo Pacific and money to Israel I would have voted for that but they want Ukraine in exchange for the border and and the same way they're holding Israel funding hostage they won't do Israel funding without Ukraine and I support helping Ukraine but I believe that our national security begins in our own country at our border we today you have thousands of people a day walking into the country many of whom we do not know who they are some of whom we are now seeing are members of a Venezuelan Street gang called train the araga which is spreading throughout the country they they they wrecked havoc in Peru they wrecked havoc in Venezuela before that and now they have elements here in our own country that has to be a priority how you get Aid to deal with Taiwan now let's vote for it let's put up a bill that votes on Tai you're saying it has to be a standalone no it doesn't have to be I mean if the president tonight at the State of the Union and we're taping this and he announces that uh he's going to re put back in place the policies that allowed us to detain single adults uh until the removal proceedings were done I'll vote for that I'll vote for that requires a lot of funding you know that it does require a lot of funding that's the existing law of the country border security says it needs more funding as does let do for that but but it starts with the executive order which is what applies our laws which he refuses to do because it would require him to admit that Trump was right about the border so because I'm sure Mark agrees with everything I just said L just I think through that I just say this yeah The Border's a mess yeah there are certain things that president President says the not let's go back to what president Trump said president Trump said change the law so I can do more I respectfully believe that what Senator Langford put forward was as tough a border deal as could get passed in this Congress and even next Congress Because unless there is a you know 80 member shift one way or the other in either political party I think you know politics is the art of the possible I think it was a good deal and I I agree with Marco we need to get the money uh to China and Taiwan we need to get the money both humanitarian and for Israel but I think the issue that I've been is most wrapped around is if we walk away from the people of Ukraine at this point after in the last two years the ukrainians with our help in the Europeans help at literally the cost of less than 3% of our defense budget have eliminated 87% of the Russian pre-invasion Ground Forces 63% of their tanks 32% of their armored personnel carriers if we don't stand by Ukraine right right now the rest of the world should never trust us again and this notion that and I we go back to our early comments these authoritarian nations are watching each other if people say she is a threat and if they don't believe that if President Putin is successful in Ukraine and that will then put NATO and American troops In Harm's Way she will take lessons from that I think there is enormous linkage so I I do hope we're finding a way I think most of us the vast majority frankly I think 300 votes Plus in the house for Ukraine if that was put up as a standalone um but I and I hope we get it done we have to they run out of ammunition in April president they run out of ammunition Ukraine needs more soldiers no matter how patriotic you are as a Ukrainian the idea that you would go into the military when you get issued 20 bullets a day when you're being outshell 10 to one when the ukrainians have performed much better than any of us hoped uh when we brought Sweden and Norway into NATO and if Finland I'm sorry Sweden and and Finland into NATO um if we don't stand by that commitment uh then I think this will be a a mistake of as historic as some of the mistakes made in advance of World War II how do you respond to that we have me you are for Aid to Ukraine sure but we have 7.2 million I responded very simple and that is no but in the art of the possible as as well the art of the possible is we have 7.2 million people in this country that have entered over the last three years some of them we don't really know who they are New York just deployed National Guard troops to the street because of a migrant crime wave we have a serious problem here at home and so I think that we have to go to Americans and say okay first and foremost our priority is going to be to deal with our issues here and all I'm asking is that be made a priority equal to so if president B tomorrow said oh uh I'm going to put in an emergency action to you know he already said essentially mimic remain in Mexico you'd say fine here's $60 billion for Ukraine sure that's what I said that's what I've said from the very beginning I didn't want him to pass a law are there things we can do do to improve our Asylum process sure but we don't need that to get back to where we were in December of 2022 or December of 2019 with or 20120 I apologize when the numbers were nothing close to this we have a migrant wave that began in mid January of 2021 because people calculated that if they got here they were going to be able to stay and 85 to 90% of them were right and it's drawing more people to come here it's unsustainable I think most Americans and in fact polling boxes up believe that there is an issue that needs to be dealt within the Border but you are linking the right now you are just and no different than the people that are linking Israel Aid to Ukraine because they won't vote for a standalone Israel bill they want unless we do Ukraine and I'm saying I won't do Ukraine unless we secure America's border okay so you are linking them just like they are with Israel um you I want to ask you specifically you uh Senator helped to spearhead an e effort with Senator C on a bipartisan basis to prevent any president from unilaterally withdrawing from NATO did you write that with Donald Trump and in mind because he's the only president that I can recall who has ever threatened I wrote it I you I can't speak for Senator Cain I wrote it with the belief that it's an important Alliance if NATO didn't exist we'd have to create it it's one of our strategic uh uh strengths that we have in the world because China doesn't have these alliances for example and neither do the Russians for that matter or the Iranians for that matter but I and I believe Congress needs to play a role in deciding whether we're going to remove ourselves from that that said I will tell you that despite what people may say is rhetoric because I I acknowledge that Donald Trump does not talk like a member of the Council of Foreign Relations on these issues he actually increased troop levels in Poland and I saw them I was there when that happened he was trying to draw down from Germany and rotate into Poland President Biden revers that and so the point being is that I don't believe Donald Trump will remove us from NATO I do think he is going to do admittedly in an unorthodox way what virtually every American president has done since the onset of NATO and that is demand that some NATO countries do more and it's interesting the closer they are to Russia the more they do what's that said Vladimir Putin has been very effective in that argument to date I I I want which argument ramping up spending by NATO members they have all increased since the invasion of Ukraine um the White House I just want to make sure I get to this the White House Declassified information about this anti-satellite uh technology um that your colleague in the house Mike Turner raised alarms about are we sleepwalking into a crisis we we have been monitoring this for years um is the idea of a nuclear weapon in space which would go against all previous treaties could that have enormously destructive effects absolutely matter of fact you know were Russia to detonate a nuclear weapon in space it doesn't discriminate between American satellites and Russian satellites or for that matter Chinese satellites it would literally take out thousands of satellites it could potentially take out GPS systems that if not at Leo but at moo the me medium earth orbit um I one of the things I think think the administration is trying to do is also bring that pressure from countries that have worked with Russia like China and unfortunately to a lesser extent India um to say you know you need to pull back but we are monitoring this I think I I I'm disappointed the way it was the information was released and and um we just had a brief on it again last week yeah it's not a new issue it's one people have been tracking I don't know what's been Declassified I'm not going to speak to it in detail all I'm going to say is that when you talk about things this is not about keeping secrets but when you talk about things you make it harder to learn more things about it uh because those who you are trying to learn from will figure out pretty quickly that you're on to something I think this is a significant and serious threat it's not the Cuban Missile Crisis but it's a big deal and I think there's work being done to address it so it's not something that came out of left field and people weren't monitoring it but I agree I don't like the way it was handled I think it's uh I think it's some way set us back a little bit but um the disclosure that's about all I'll say yeah I did want to get you both on Tik Tok if I could um I'm against it I know you're consistent in that the Biden campaign joined Tick Tock Senator Warner and I said that sends a pretty darn mixed message because the Biden Administration supported my earlier bipartisan legislation that we would lead to a path of potentially Banning Tik Tok because I believe that Tik Tock both controlled by the chese Communist Party both collects data and as a news source literally half of young people in America get a lot of their news all from Tik Tok 170 million Americans the idea if you don't think the Chinese Communist Party can twist that algorithm to make it the news that they see reflective of their views then I don't think you appreciate the nature of the threat and we were joking would would the United States ever allow um China to buy CBS I don't think they would and we we might have slightly different ways on how we go at this but we think this is a national security issue look here's I'm going to try to explain it very quickly the danger in Tik Tok is not that somebody goes on that video and you know puts something up that looks stupid or silly okay the here's the challenge the reason why Tik Tok is so attractive its value is it has an algorithm a recommender engine which is one of the best in the world that is owned by bite dance under Chinese law bite dance must own it and the only way that that recommender engine works is that they have access to the data so it doesn't matter who you sell Tik Tok to where their headquarter it doesn't even matter what they store the data the AL as long as bite dance engineers in China have access to the algor have access to that data control the algorithm they have to have access to American data to make it work and that's what we need to confront that's the reality here you like this house bill listen I think there is I think there's a lot of creativity on Tik Tok and I think if they had to discor as long as the algorithm moved if this was a Brazilian company or a French company or Canadian company it wouldn't cause me near the consternation I don't know about the I haven't read it in detail yet in fact even as we speak they're in committee so it might be changed it's not an easy thing to resolve but ultimately what we have to focus on is who owns the algorithm because whoever owns the algorithm will have will have access to the data no matter who the name on the door is that algorithm is what is what we need to go after because you can't it doesn't work without the data and manipulating that algorithm can mean what kind of information you're going to see and if you don't think that could be used as a the most powerful um propaganda tool ever then I don't think you in an election year in an election year then you don't get the threat you Senator Warner said last month that we are less prepared for foreign interference in 2024 than we were in 2020 what exactly are you concerned about we have nation states China Iran Russia who know that interfering on our elections is both effective and cheap we have a lot more Americans who have for a variety of reasons less trust in any of our institutions including our Vo voting system we have a a court case that was in the fifth circuit that have restricted the voluntary communication between social media and the FBI or sisa and you have that cauldron of change going on and then you throw in artificial intelligence tools that can bring deep fakes or voices or other manipulation at a speed and scale that's unprecedented and we're going we have dealt with this at a classified level we're going to have public heing on this we need to make sure that the American public is educated and at least aware and thinks thinks before they believe everything they see the tech companies have said they'll put water marking on altered uh material but we need to hold their feet to the fire on that it's the area of malign influence right and it's not very expensive to basically figure out what are the issues that already divide Americans so let's amplify messages that put them at each other's throat that makes their politics even more conflictive we already do a pretty good job of it on our own help us do that and that doesn't just deal deal with elections we're Beyond just election interference with mili influence it's now an effort to influence our policy debates to divide us year round right on a regular basis and it's not that expensive to do so Russia does it and they've done it for a long time the Chinese want to get into this business the Iranians and others will join them because and not just here we've already seen examples of it in other democratic nations it it's a growing risk and I think one of the first things we have to do is talk about it so people understand what it is we're trying to describe it's not hacking ballot boxes it's hacking the minds and our political debate in this country by exacerbating pre-existing tensions to the point of boiling over and it's not clear how people are supposed to protect themselves against what you just described well it begins with awareness and the understanding that sometimes these messages that are being driven or some of these things that people are putting up online are not real or they are a video of something that happened Halfway Around the World 10 years ago not down the street one month ago uh but there are things that are designed to get people angry and and you know the algorithms feed this because people love content that shows something outrageous and more people will view it so it's EAS easy to push this and before you know it people are out there voting and at each other's throat over something that may not even be real mhm this is the biggest risk for election night it's a huge risk and now we got a job to do and I hope others will advance this as well 20 tech companies said in an agreement in Munich that they would try to put water marking and that would indicate if content has been altered or or deep fake is that sufficient they've said they will take it down but it's all voluntary so we need to keep the pressure on and frankly uh I think the administration leads lean in more uh and I think we need to do a a better job I think people were potentially more aware even four years ago under President Trump do a better job of educating that with these new tools like deep fakes you know don't believe everything you see and hear sorry just to follow up on that you mean you need the Biden Administration officials out there more specifically identifying what's true and what's not all to be out there there has been a hesitancy after this fifth circuit case to even have voluntary Comm Communications I remember in the aftermath of 2016 when Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook said gosh if there are bad guys operating on our our platform foreign influence tell us we had a a good working relationship even under President Trump where there was a lot of information being shared because of this case there's not been as much sharing and I think frankly the uh there was an exemption given I think the Biden Administration lawyers need to be a little more forward leaning on letting these communications voluntary take place it's a complicated area because it's possible that someone is out there saying something that they personally believe and have a First Amendment right to express but it's being Amplified by a foreign power and so I think that's the difficult Balancing Act here because a lot of people would say look my views on this happen to align with what some country around the world thinks not because they told me but because it's what I honestly believe as an American the malign influence is when the foreign power says we are going to do everything in our power to drive these messages on both sides by the way to get them to fight with each other other that's the effort that we have to have more insight on and find a way to communicate better so that some of these people that are out there expressing these views at least understand that their message is being Amplified by a foreign adversary even if they choose to continue to believe the way they do but it's complicated I mean it's and this is the reason why adversaries get involved in the business of doing this because they know how hard it is to stop okay