During a Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee hearing on Oct. 19, Sen. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.) grilled Jigar H. Shah, the director of the U.S. Department of Energy’s Loan Programs Office, over the latter’s appearances at paid events. When asked if he thought it’s fine to attend events where “people who want to get loans from the government are paying to see you,” Mr. Shah was speechless for a moment.
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thank you Mr chairman uh thanks to all
the witnesses for being here Mr Shaw can
I just follow up I I didn't understand
your answer to the ranking member order
to the chairman did did you say so you
do
attend dinners with industry leaders
where they pay to see you speak was that
a yes or a no I didn't I didn't hear no
I I attend many many events some of
which I'm invited to speak at we and
they don't pay they don't pay and many
many don't pay and some some are like
paid conferences and others but one of
the things wait I'm sorry wait wait that
that was a yes and a no so let's just go
back do do you attend events where
people pay to see you speak I have
attended P where people pay to attend
the event do you think that's a good
idea I think it's important for us to uh
to meet potential applicants American
innovators and entrepreneurs who want to
scale up their technology applicants for
loan programs applicants for uh doe
funding wait wait a minute wait a minute
you you think it's a good idea to go to
events where people are trying to get
Federal money and they're paying to see
you they're not paying to see me I
thought you just said you spoke at
events where people
paid not to see me I mean I'm I'm not
that
important you're
[Laughter]
the
wow you learn new things every day you
you are you what what's what's your
title you're the director of what of the
loan programs office you're the director
of the loan programs for the federal
government Department of energy people
are who want to get loans from the
government are paying to see you and you
think that that's
fine that's not a rhetorical question I
think I've answered that that I go to
many conferences and events I've had
hundreds of stakeholder events the goal
is to get people you're going to events
where people are paying to see you who
want money from the government you're
the director of The Loan program you do
you you think that that's okay you don't
you don't see any conflict of interest
with
that I think given the extraordinary
amount of improvements that we've made
in our office based on our work with the
Inspector General and the herb Allison
report Etc there there is I I do not
make a decision on who whose
applications are accepted within the
loan programs but you don't think
there's an appearance of a conflict of
interest that people are paying to get
access to
you I think that it there would be a
conflict of interest if people are
paying to uh to get access to me but I
don't okay isn't that what they're doing
when they you you speak at events people
paid to get into I mean correct me if
I'm wrong I mean if if they're not
paying that's fine but I thought you
just said a second ago they're paying we
do a lot of public events whether it's
you know and we are very transparent as
part of this administration every time I
get a question which I you know which is
hard to answer we we up update our blog
posts and make sure that everyone knows
what we're doing but the goal of the
loan programs office is to get as many
people as possible to think that they
can actually commercialize their
technology well what I think they think
is that they can get access to you by
paying to go to these dinners I mean
listen it may not be an ethic violation
I it should be but maybe it's not I I
just suggest to you I don't think it's a
good look I don't think it's a good idea
to go to pay dinners where people are
paying money to get access to you
because in your own words they want
loans they want loans federal dollars
taxpayer money they're paying money to
go get access to you I I just maybe
that's really common fact knowing this
government it probably is really common
but if if it is it's a bad idea I I just
submit to you um I'm kind of amazed by
this Miss Donaldson can I just ask you
about another ethics issue at the
department of energy I'm so glad you're
here by the way thank you for being here
and thank you for for doing this job The
Wall Street Journal published back in
February a report I'm just going to
quote the headline here it is hundreds
of energy Department officials hold
stocks related to agency's work despite
warnings have you been tracking this
have you seen these
reports I have Senator so that includes
sadly that the Secretary of Energy who
testified right there to this Committee
in response to questions from me that
she didn't own any individual stocks I
asked her three times in April do you
own individual stocks three times she
said no absolutely not absolutely not
absolutely not two months later she
wrote the chairman and said actually I
did and she didn't devest of them until
May and then she didn't tell us till a
month
later uh that's a big problem and and
the fact that she misled this committee
and didn't tell us the fact that we have
all of these energy Department officials
holding stocks related to the agencies
work I mean what is going on at doe do
you have authority to look into this
Miss Donaldson well there's a mechanism
set up in the law which you have please
please use your microphone Miss dson
please just speak into it if you would
yeah pull a little closer so um you can
in fact hold stock and be an employ for
the government you cannot participate in
any decisions that might impact the
value of that stock um so there's
different rules that apply here and
those are can be driven by Congress or
they can be driven by regulation or
policy um and that particular situation
um when you spoke about your questions
about other doe employes they get
notices reminding them basically so if
they own stock and Ford they'll get a
notice saying don't forget nothing
having to do with Ford so those notices
don't carry with them any kind of
penalty it's part of the process set up
to make sure they keep track of their
own what you would view to be a conflict
oral conflict well my time has expired I
I just thank you for your work Mr
Donaldson I'm going to send you a letter
about this and and hope that that we
might ask you to look into the and I
know the ranking members already asked
you to look into secretary Grant Holmes
testimony before this committee but I am
firmly of the view that we need to
change the law here MH senior executive
branch official should not be able to
own individual stock nor should members
of Congress we shouldn't be stock
trading and nor should anybody who is
sitting at this table and so I I just am
distressed by the it just piles up and
I'll just say this isn't a partisan
issue it's it happened in the last
Administration it's members of both
parties of Congress we shouldn't be
doing it I've got bipartisan legislation
that would end this and I think we need
to end this practice once and for all
thank you for your being here thank you
Senator and I will say that I think I'm
very supportive that that
legislation let me say this to you all
to clarify of 535 members of Congress I
think that the majority if not all of us
have spoken at conferences to where
people had to pay a registration fee to
be there they didn't have I understand
appearance-wise but you know you have to
have your uh get your point across I
think the thing that we were concerned
about Sir U Mr Shaw is the one that you
had definite ties to and if they had
come back in but still yet we all were
going to conference I'll give you Sierra
week SAR sah week that's that's a big
one
$1,500 Democrats Republicans we all go
and speak there because we think it's an
access to that and uh so with that being
said I know you might feel you unfairly
targeted here but well Mr chairman I
think you're AB there is a difference
between going to a meeting and speaking
where people pay a registration fee but
the group that this is that we're
talking about is a group that he founded
founded and you have to be a member of
the group to get special access to 10
different opportunities to go with him
special access F you're a member and
they brag about it they brag about it
online hundreds of billions of dollars
they love him he's the co-founder of the
group sign up join the group and you get
special access is this wrong Mr chairman
gotcha
