Jordan Peterson discusses the relationship between negative thoughts and feelings and how identifying and challenging automatic thoughts can help alleviate anxiety and misery. He also touches on the dangers of totalitarian ideologies and offers strategies for addressing distressing memories and difficulties at work.
Jordan Peterson is a Canadian media personality, clinical psychologist, author, and professor emeritus at the University of Toronto. He began to receive widespread attention as a public intellectual in the late 2010s.
►Sources: Questioning Sam Harris | Sam Harris | EP 224 Lecture: Biblical Series XII: The Great Sacrifice: Abraham and Isaac Evolution & Desire | David Buss | EP 235 Marriage, and Making Friends | Dr. John Delony | EP 307 Fundamental Values | John Anderson | EP 313
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Thoughts about yourself are indistinguishable from negative emotion.
That's how heavily tinged they are with negative emotion.
As soon as you become self-conscious, as soon as you start thinking about yourself,
you're instantly anxious and miserable.
They're the same thing.
Becker didn't read Jung, by the way,
even though he wrote a book on the psychology of religion,
and he said in the intro that it was unnecessary to read Jung,
which was exactly wrong, given what he was doing.
But Becker basically posited that
we had to create fabrications to defend ourselves against negative emotion.
That's the essential message of that book.
And what that means in some sense is that
the whole corpus of human endeavor
is an attempt to escape from the realization of mortality.
And I think, well, wait a sec.
No, we're also escaping from mortality.
It's not just the thoughts of it.
And it isn't obvious to me at all,
and I think almost all of clinical psychology would suggest that this is true,
is that falsification as a defense
is actually counterproductive in the final analysis.
And most of the great clinical theorists,
Rogers, perhaps in some sense foremost among them, but perhaps not,
insisted that it was the truth that set you free,
not the web of defenses that you had erected
by necessity to deal with your neurotic death anxiety.
That's actually counterproductive.
So one of the things you do in clinical work all the time,
especially in the cognitive behavioral field,
is you help people identify those thoughts,
in some sense as objects,
to no longer identify with them and say,
you know, just because you think that,
it's not necessarily true,
it's not necessarily you,
and it's not necessarily helpful.
Now we can check and see if any of those three propositions were true.
Maybe it is you, maybe you do believe it, maybe it is useful,
but we're going to start by hypothesizing
that some of these automatic thoughts are actually what's driving your misery.
And I really also see that as a tremendous danger of totalitarian ideologies,
because they're thought systems that are almost entirely foreign,
in some sense, to the individual person
that invade that cognitive space that you're describing,
and then manifest themselves as unquestioning identity.
And if they're blinding the person to some underlying reality
that's actually revivifying and nourishing,
and an antidote to suffering,
then they're a tremendous block to exactly that process.
You know, one of the things that people might want to know who are listening,
is that if you have a memory that's older than about 18 months,
and it haunts you,
and when it comes up involuntarily,
it produces a stress reaction,
what that means is that as far as your nervous system is concerned,
and so as far as your body is concerned,
that danger hasn't gone away.
And what's happening is an unconscious alarm system
that's looking for pitfalls and holes
is warning you that the map that you're using is incomplete
in a manner that might enable you to fall into the same hole.
And so one of the things that people can do that's very useful
is if you have memories like that that plague you,
is to bring them to mind voluntarily,
instead of waiting for them to come after you involuntarily,
and then to think through what has changed and what might not have,
but also to come up with a plan so that if a similar circumstance arose,
you'd be in a better position in one way or another to deal with it.
There's no other way of getting the memory to go away.
Like merely re-contemplating it in the same manner over and over won't do it.
And allowing it to plague you unconsciously,
it'll do that forever until you solve it.
It might show up in your dreams, it'll show up in your fantasies,
it'll trigger you, so to speak, when you're talking to other people,
if they happen to discuss a topic that's related to it.
And it's because the narrative is one of failure and defeat,
the event was one of failure and defeat,
and if there isn't a map to allow you to transcend that, that's functional,
then the part of your brain that is concerned with identifying danger
is never going to let you go.
If you run, then the signal, the story you're acting out,
is that the thing you're running from is bigger than you,
and that you have to hide.
And that's just a recipe for anxiety.
Now it's not necessarily that easy to turn and face something,
but you do detail out a variety of strategies in your books
that might help people do that.
You can differentiate the problem,
like you might have been traumatized at work, let's say,
or let's not use that sort of jargony, that jargony phraseology.
You may be having tremendous difficulties at work,
you might be dealing with people who are tyrannical at work
and find it very meaningless, and that's bothering you constantly,
it's disturbing your sleep, for example, and it's haunting you,
and you tend to try to push it out of your mind
when the thoughts come.
And partly that's because the thought of getting a new job
is so daunting that you can't face it.
And one of the ways of recalibrating that
is to break down the problem into small and manageable steps.
Well, okay, so let me run something by you
in relationship to emotional regulation and status.
Tell me what you think about this.
So the terror management theorist types tend to think
that our cognitive beliefs inhibit our anxiety,
and they drill that all the way down to anxiety of death,
taking a page from Freud, and that's Becker's book, basically,
and there's a whole field of psychology that's worked on that.
I think it's... I don't think it's right.
I think it's more indirect.
So imagine this.
Imagine that the degree to which your negative emotion is regulated
is dependent on serotonergic output, fundamentally.
So as your serotonin levels rise, you're more emotionally stable.
So you feel less anxiety, despair,
the whole panoply of negative emotions,
which are pretty tightly clumped together.
And so then you might say,
well, your emotional regulation is dependent on your status.
And I think there's truth in that.
Now, let's say I do... we're at an academic conference,
and I stand up and I ask you a question,
and it's a mean question, but you can't answer it,
so your status is devalued.
But here's what I've actually done.
It's not exactly that I've devalued your status.
What I've done is undermined the claim
that you have a valid claim on that position.
Yeah.
Right?
And then that's going to dysregulate you,
because if that's true, then,
well, you've been shown to be an imposter, let's say,
or at least a threat is there,
and then that would take you out of that hierarchy,
and your negative emotion would rise.
And then the reason it would rise
is because if you are removed from that hierarchy,
and now you're alienated and isolated,
everything has become way more dangerous.
Yes.
Right.
And you know that people at the bottom of a hierarchy
are much more likely to die from all-cause mortality.
Right.
This is not nothing.
Why have a goal?
Well, it's easy.
No goal, no positive emotion.
Because you experience positive emotion
by noticing that you're moving towards a goal.
And so if you don't have a goal,
well, you can't have any positive emotion.
So you better have a goal.
And so you might say,
well, what should the goal be?
Well, we could start by saying,
well, any goal is better than none.
And then we might say,
well, it should be a goal that other people
will let you pursue,
because otherwise it's going to be kind of difficult.
Maybe they'll be even happy to help you pursue it.
That would even be better.
And maybe it's a goal that would enable you
to learn how to pursue other goals
while you pursue that goal.
Boy, that would really be good.
And so you can see that your goal is parameterized.
But that doesn't mean that any old goal works.
It means there's some goals that work nicely
and some not so nicely.
There are playable games and non-playable games.
That's a good way of thinking about it.
And you want to have a playable game.
And there's a lot of them.
Lawyer, plumber, you know, actor, whatever.
They're playable games.
And it's not obvious which one's better,
but it's certainly obvious which ones are sustainable
and which ones are worse.
So there's a set of playable games.
And you need to extract from that set of playable games
a game that suits you.
And that would be partly due to your temperament, you know,
because extroverted people want to play an extroverted game
and highly neurotic people want to play a safe game
and agreeable people want to play a generous game
and disagreeable people want to play a game
that's highly competitive so they can win.
And, you know, fine.
But they're all within the realm of playable games.
And that means they're socially acceptable as well.
And so that means it isn't just arbitrary.
It isn't just relative what you decide to do.
It's heavily parameterized.
There's a set of playable games.
And it's large.
The set is large.
But there are commonalities within it.
And that's why there are commonalities.
That's why morality has a common basis fundamentally.
And so that's partly what we're trying to investigate.
It's like, what does that mean?
What does it mean?
Is there such a thing?
Now, one thing to remember is that
if you don't erect a hierarchical structure
with something to aim at,
you've got no positive motivation
because you experience positive motivation
in relationship to a goal,
not from attaining the goal.
That's satisfaction.
And besides, it's fleeting.
You know perfectly well.
You graduate from university.
Poof.
Next day you have a problem.
Which is, what do you do next?
And that's a tough problem.
It's not like you've solved your problems
by winning that game.
You just introduced the problem
of having to introduce another game.
So it's unreliable as a source of positive emotion.
But what's reliable is you set a goal.
And you try to attain it.
And then that gives your life,
that literally provides your life with meaning.
That's what meaning is.
Now it's more than that,
but that's what it is.
So let's say you're conceptualizing
your own failure, you know.
And you meditated on it,
and you come to the conclusion
that God first came to.
Hey, not only have things
not been going very well for you,
but it's actually your fault.
And not only that,
you brought it on yourself.
And not only that,
you knew it all the time.
Well then you might think
you'll wake up and fly right, right?
You'll get your wings in order
and fly right.
But there's no reason to assume that at all.
And that's not what happens to Cain.
That just makes him more bitter, right?
And you can understand that
if you think about it just for a second.
It's like bad enough
when something horrible happens to you.
But then to have to swallow
the additional pill, right?
To have to take in the information
that you could have done something different.
It was avoidable.
And you knew it at the time.
And you decided to do it anyways.
And I think people are in that situation
a lot more often
than anyone is willing to admit.
You know, you have that little voice
in the back of your head that says,
and you override it.
And you know it's arrogance
that makes you override it.
It's always arrogance, you know.
It always warns you.
It's always arrogance.
Yeah, I can get away with it.
It's like, no you can't.
I don't think you ever get away with anything.
So and maybe your experience
has taught you different,
but my suspicions are it hasn't.
And if you think it has,
well, the other shoe hasn't yet dropped.
So Cain doesn't take the opportunity
to let God's wisdom reorient his character.
And that could have been the outcome.
He could have got down on his knees,
so to speak, and said,
oh my God, I've been wrong all along.
I've been living improperly.
I've been making the wrong sacrifices.
Abel deserves everything he has.
I got exactly what was coming to me.
You know, could I possibly now
straighten myself out
and live in repentance
and improve my position?
That's not what he did at all.
He said, all right, fair enough.
I get it.
It's like, I'm going to go after
the thing I most admire,
and I'm going to destroy it,
and I'm going to do that
despite its cost to me,
and I'm going to do that
just to spite the creator of being.
There's this idea in the New Testament
that Christ was he who took
the sins of the world unto himself.
It's a very complicated idea,
but part of it, part of it,
part of it is associated with the idea
that he met the devil in the desert as well.
To take the sins of mankind unto yourself
is to understand that within you
dwells exactly the same spirit
that commit the atrocities at Columbine
or that ran the camps at Auschwitz,
and to actually understand
that that's part and parcel of your makeup,
and then to take responsibility for it.
And I think that in the aftermath
of the terrible 20th century,
that's what we're left with.
We're left with the necessity
to take responsibility
for the most terrible aspects of ourselves,
and that way, perhaps,
we can stop those terrible things
from happening again.
In reference to the Starry Night,
for example,
there's this series
of Renaissance paintings
which are quite magnificent
that show an image of Mary
with 12 stars around her head
and with her foot on a serpent,
and that's an allusion
to the Garden of Eden
because Eve crushes the serpent
beneath her foot.
And this is relevant
to your discussion
and our discussion earlier
about the deepest of all evils,
because that's a concern of yours.
It's been a concern of mine.
What's the darkest possible place?
Well, that snake in those paintings
represents that,
and that's why in Christianity,
the snake, which is a predator,
is associated with Satan
as what you say
the emissary of evil or malevolent,
something like that.
And so because Mary
has her head in the stars,
she can have her foot
on the serpent,
and that's part
of that meditation.
Well, she does that
before she listens
to your meditation,
but that's where I see
the psychological link, let's say,
because you want to put your psyche
in the highest possible place,
whatever that is,
and we don't know
what it is exactly,
but it's something
like what happens
when you look up
at the night sky.
It's something like that,
and if you do that,
that means that your foot
is simultaneously
on that serpent.
If you want to stabilize people
psychologically,
and if you want to imbue them
with courage,
then what you do
is you help them expose themselves
voluntarily to the things
they're afraid of
that they're avoiding.
It's a very powerful technique.
That's exposure therapy,
and what exposure therapy
seems to do
is to make people braver.
How To Deal With Negative Thoughts & Feelings - Jordan Peterson | Gan Jing World