This Is Why You FEEL LOST, LAZY & UNMOTIVATED In Life... | Brené Brown

We can't ever get rid of shame. What we can do is develop resilience to shame. So when it happens and it washes over, that warm wash that makes you feel small and not enough, when that washes over me, rather than yelling at my kids or just decimating myself with hateful language, you know, and like, you're stupid or you're not, now when it washes over me, I'm like, okay, I'm in shame. Don't talk, text, or type. What happened? So there are still, I mean, I still have triggers around it. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. I'm very excited. Today, we have the incredible Brene Brown on. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Yes, I'm very excited to be here. We have an event called the Summit of Greatness every year, an annual event. And the people on my team in our program write down the person that they wanna have on the School of Greatness. And most of our team is women, and most of them put your name down as the person we wanna have on. So we're finally making it happen, and my team can stop asking for Brene. It's happening. And I'm very excited about this because you have a new book out called Braving the Wilderness, The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone. Make sure you guys get this book right now. It's gonna change the game. And I got a chance to go through it. Love everything that you write about in here, and I feel very connected to you because I felt very alone for almost my entire life. I felt like I didn't belong anywhere. I was the youngest of four. I was always picked on, bullied. I was sexually abused when I was a kid by a man that I didn't know. I was always picked last on sports teams, and I know you weren't even picked for, I think it was the step team or some type of- Oh yeah, the drill team. The drill team. I remember how that kind of transformed your life. It was defining. Defining, right? These moments that we go through as kids can really define and shape us. And so I feel connected to you in that sense that I felt very alone and didn't know who I was for a very long time. And still, I'm trying to learn who I am. Yeah, me too. You are? Yeah. But you seem like you have it all figured out. Oh God, no, I don't. No, I don't have, I mean, first of all, I think the one thing I've learned in my research above all else is that in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering. So when I hear about your experiences growing up, that's suffering. Yeah. That's real suffering. And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think it was in eighth grade, by itself is not a lot, but how my family responded to it. It was like when things changed for me and I didn't feel like I belonged to my family anymore. So I think that I still am trying to figure it out. I don't know that I've interviewed anyone, even spiritual leaders, who have the belonging thing completely nailed because I don't think it is what we think it is. I don't think that it's having a big posse of friends or having a crew or rolling with a bunch of people. I think I'm still trying to figure it out because I still feel lonely and alone and on the outside of things on a really regular basis. Really? I mean, you're going on a book tour with thousands of people, a 15 city tour, millions of fans around the world, and you still feel alone. Yeah, I can feel really lonely. Why? And it's really hard because, you know, you talk about that book tour. I'm a severely introverted. Yes. Super private. And so I love that connection between me and audience, but it can also be hard on me. And also, I'm talking about things that no one... It's weird to me that people sign up to talk about them, but they're hard topics sometimes. And we laugh and we have fun and we'll sing. But I think what I've learned in doing the research on belonging is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself, but it's also the courage to stand alone and to belong to yourself above all else. And so I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself and sometimes that makes other people uncomfortable. And so I think that's hard. I think I do feel... I'm always looking for, I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for the roadmap. Like I want to find the researcher, storyteller, Christian, lover of all people, fighter of the resistance. I want to find the blueprint of who's ahead of me believing what I believe in and doing it really well. But there's not really a blueprint sometimes. We're all trying to figure it out. Yeah. We're all trying to figure it out. I don't get to copy anybody. And so it's hard. It's still hard. But here's the thing that has changed everything for me. I belong to me. So even when I feel alone and I wonder like, who's my crew and who are my people? I belong to me for sure, for the first time in my life maybe. Yeah. And I think we lose ourselves sometimes by trying to belong in groups that we don't fit in. Yeah. I remember being the youngest on these sports teams growing up. I was playing on the junior varsity as a freshman or the varsity or whatever. So I was the youngest. And I remember just wanting to fit in just like you did in that team. I wanted to fit in. I wanted to feel like they liked me, like I mattered, like I was a cool kid or whatever. And when they would do things that I didn't really agree with or they would bully other kids or make fun of people, it's like, I didn't want to not say anything. I didn't want to stand against them because I wanted to belong. So if I did stand up against them, then that means I was alone. And that was my biggest fear was being alone. No, yeah, because that's what teams and groups deliver. They deliver this thing that you're not alone. The problem is there's just, I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be? What do I need to say? What do I need to wear? How do I need to act? And changing who you are. And true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are because if we fit in because how we've changed ourselves, that's not belonging. That's not belonging because you betrayed yourself for other people and that's not sustainable. Yeah, you start to lose yourself. You start to lose yourself, exactly what you said. And so I think it's hard. You have to show up as who you are. How do we find out who we are? That's the life's work, right? That's fricking hard. Do you know who you are? Yeah, I do. Who are you? In what way? If someone just said, who are you, Brene? What would you say? Brene Brown. Mom, partner, researcher, storyteller, Texan. I don't know, I'd ask them how much time they have because the thing is that we want to, when we ask people who they are and we want to know, we'd like those really easy files to put them in, but I'm a complicated person. Are you? Yeah, and so I think I know who I am. What makes you complicated? I don't know if I'm complicated, but I'm complex. You're interesting. I hope so. Some days, yeah, some days, no. Very interesting. You know, I think what makes me complex is I think what makes everyone complex is the paradoxical nature of people. So, you know, like, I speak in public, I love doing that, but I'm incredibly introverted. I'm kind of a traditionalist around things. My kids say, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am, but I also raise them to challenge authority every time they get the opportunity to do that, but to be really polite when they're doing it, yeah. So I think I'm unapologetically earnest. Like, I believe in the goodness of people, but I believe it's hard work to stay out of fear and stay good. And so I think I understand people. I think I have a lot of empathy, but I'm also not afraid of discomfort. So I think there's just a lot of push and pull, and I think that's true of all of us. I do not like to be defined. I think that's something. Do you? I was gonna say, I feel like my entire life, I didn't wanna be defined as well. They were like, you're gonna be this jock in college. You're gonna be like this alcoholic. You're gonna be in the frats. All my siblings said this to me, and I was like, no, I'm not. I made a bet with each one of my siblings, $100 each, that I wanna have one sip of alcohol in college. Because I was like, I wanna go against everything you think I'm gonna be. I joined the school musical because they were like, you're just gonna do sports. I sang, I played guitar, I salsa danced. I was like, I'm gonna do everything different than what people would expect of a tall, white man, right? That's awesome. I was like, I wanna be different. And I think in that process, I was trying to discover who I really was, what I liked, my dreams, what was fun for me. As opposed to just trying to fit the box in the mold of everyone else. Because you can lose yourself in that fitting in, I think. You can lose yourself in the fitting in, and you can lose yourself in the rebuttal to the fitting in. It's true. Trying to go against it all too, yeah. Yeah, it's really hard. I mean, it's the thing that, it's a quote that is, Braving the Wilderness is all about this, starts with this quote from Maya Angelou, that we're never free until we belong nowhere, we belong everywhere, which is nowhere, which is no place at all. Which I thought was a terrible quote for many years. And I was like, why are you saying that, Dr. Angelou? You're pissing me off. But then I realized, really, and she says, the cost is high, but the reward is great. And I think that's the thing, that I feel like I belong everywhere I go, no matter where it is or who I'm with, as long as I never betray myself. And the minute I become who you want me to be in order to fit in and make sure people like me is the moment I no longer belong anywhere. And that is hard. Yeah. I mean, that's a hard practice. That's an everyday practice. Wow. Yeah, because I can be whoever you want me to be like that. You're like a chameleon, you said. Oh, I can be totally like a chameleon. Like, sometimes it's really funny, because I travel so much, I have all these miles, I always sit in business class, and I'm normally the only woman in business class. Every now and then there's one other, maybe, which is a conversation we should be having, too. Sure. But it doesn't matter what dude sits next to me. Like, I can talk about whatever that person like. And it's so funny, because we'll talk about sports usually first, or football, or we'll talk about politics, and he'll say, what do you do? And I'll say, I study vulnerability and shame. Oh, well, huh, well, I'm gonna play some Angry Birds. You know, and write that moment. Like, I can just, and it's not that I know everything about everything, it's just. So you're saying most men don't wanna chime in and learn more about that? No, that's usually, if I wanna go to sleep, I'm like, I'm a shame researcher. What do you do? And you're like, okay. But I think I can be anything. Yeah, you're adaptable. I'm adaptable, and adaptable is great. Because anyone that comes to my home, or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable. Of course. But then if I get so adaptable that my goal, my intention of adapting, is to make sure you like me, then that's when I betray myself, yeah. What would you say is the time in your life you've been the most alone? High school. Just the whole journey? Yeah, it just sucked. It does suck. And you know, my daughter just graduated from high school, and she had this amazing experience. You know, just incredible experience. And it was so healing to watch. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, and I think it happened because she, I think she had the confidence to put herself out there, and you know, student council president, and you know, that kind. I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what, you belong here. No matter how goofy, awkward, afraid, wrong, it doesn't matter, you belong here. And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that at home, it gives them the courage to take risks outside of home. Does that make sense? Because they feel safe coming back, no matter what happens, they always have a place to come home to. And I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic. I'm the oldest of four. And fitting in and being cool was the most important thing. So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team. But in my world growing up, you only did two things. You were a cheerleader, or you were on the drill team, and preferably you married a running back or a quarterback. I mean, that was the way it went. And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French club. You know, or I would have been in debate, or those kind of things. The newspaper. Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, photographer of the year book. But those things did not have a lot of value. Really? No. Your parents didn't instill that as something credible or worthwhile? No, it's just cool was the number one value at home. Cool, lots of friends, popular. And that just wasn't my, I wasn't that thing. You know, I was, yeah, I wasn't. And so what I did is I just started drinking, smoking weed, hanging out with, you know. I found a place to be, you know, cool. And, you know, that just goes bad fast. Yeah. Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about this? Oh yeah, we've talked about all of it. You have? Yeah. You've let it go? You've processed it all? Oh yeah, because they, you know, they read my books as I write them. And they're, you know, they're like, ----, this is exactly what every parent wants, a child who grows up to be a shame researcher. But no, they just, that's the miracle of my parents. Like my parents, they've taught me the best thing about parenting that anyone I think could ever know, which is it doesn't end when your kids leave. Like they keep growing and exploring and, you know, and however hard it was for me not being able to be, you know, we did not do vulnerability growing up. No, no, no, no. Like, yeah, like our family motto was literally lock and load. Like get ready, you know, family trips, you're in the car for five hours, that's all six of us. You really have to go to the bathroom, but the rest stop is on the other side of the highway. We're not pulling over, like suck it up, hold it. Like we were tough, we were tough. Like we'd fall down and get hurt. You know, my dad would say like, I got bigger scratches than that on my eyeball. You know, like, you know, yeah, like we were tough. And so, and we were taught to outrun vulnerability. We were taught to suck it up, soldier on, get her done. And so however hard that was for me growing up, imagine what it was like for my parents in the 50s. You know, my dad, who was the youngest of six, his dad died when he was 16, you know. Was he able to process that or no? No, he just did the next thing you do. Played football, played college ball. My mom, who's my grandmother, who I named my daughter after, was an alcoholic. And she was drunk every other day of my mom's life. But she was the most amazing person in the world. But everyone knew she was an alcoholic, so my mom wasn't allowed to have friends at her house growing up. Because it was the 50s, and she was divorced. You know, and so my mom became the head of the drill team, and the, you know, the valedictorian. And so however hard it was for me growing up, having to try to outrun vulnerability, it was a million times harder on my parents. And they didn't, they did what they knew how to do. And they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had. And so I don't have, I think the hard part comes from people that I've interviewed my whole life, where the parents don't grow and change. And they see anything a child trying to do differently as criticism of what they did, as opposed to my parents, who lean in and say, tell me more about that. I have a funny story, you ever hear a funny story about my dad? Yeah, it's great. So we do a lot of choice theory with my daughter and my son. And so choice, my husband's a pediatrician. So like, we knew a lot about child development from our, just from school. And so when Ellen was little, we used to do this thing where we would say, you know, you have two choices. Like, Lewis, you have two choices. You can either hand me the water, I'm gonna have to take it from you. What is your choice? So that if you decide not to hand it to me and I have to take it, it's not my fault. That was your choice, right? And so one night I was talking to Ellen and we were at my dad's house in San Antonio and I was like, Ellie, you need to turn off Dora the Explorer, it's time to go to bed. And she's like, mm-mm. And I said, Ellen, you have two choices. You can get up and turn off the TV or I'm gonna get it up and turn it off for you. And if I have to get up and, you know, turn off the TV, you're gonna lose privileges to watch it tomorrow. And that's your choice. Yeah, that's your choice. So do you, you know, and I would hate that for you, but that will be your choice. And my dad was sitting in the recliner next to me and he's like, ah, damn, sis, what are you raising, a hostage negotiator? I was like, dad, and he's like, seriously, Renee? We had four of y'all, we didn't have time for that. So the next day I come home, I'm visiting friends in San Antonio and he's watching Ellen and he's in the driveway. It's like 110 degrees in San Antonio and he's sweating. He's like, Ellen, you have two choices. You can either put the bicycle up or I'm gonna have to put it up for you. And the second one's a dumb ass choice. So I was like, wow, you're so close. You're getting there. But you're getting there. You're getting there. My parents are amazing in that way, that like they're learning and changing. So I think it's harder when parents say, I'm done. What you got was what you got. No apologies, no change, no amends. Take it or leave it. And if you do it differently with your own kids, you're a sucker. And I think we see that a lot. Yeah, we do. I mean, what should parents be learning about how they can grow? I mean, how can they start to be aware? Because I think it starts with being aware. Yeah, for sure. Of what they know and what they don't know and being receptive to learning something different, which is really hard to do. It's hard. I think once you've had these habits for so long. So that's the first thing. And I want to dive into the lack of vulnerability with what's happening in Charlottesville right now as well, because I know you did something on that this morning. So I guess how can parents listen to this and be aware and be willing to move forward in a different way of learning something new when they're so stuck in their ways, potentially, that it's worked for them to this point to get to where they're at? You know, I think I believe, this with my whole heart, I believe that 99.9% of parents are truly waking up every day and doing the very best they can with what they have. Yeah. I don't think there are a lot of parents who wake up and maliciously try to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids. I think we're doing the best we can with what we have. And so I think to let go of the idea that if I have done something that I could have done better or that I could learn from, that I have to just come down. People defend their parenting like they're defending their lives because it's such a shame minefield. Yeah. You know, I mean, a great example is the work you're doing around men and vulnerability. I cannot tell you the number of fathers and the hundreds if not thousands of fathers I've interviewed that said, I shamed my son every time he was vulnerable. Yeah. I put him down, I made fun of them, I hit him every time he was vulnerable. And now I look back and I know it's because that's the way I was raised or I was afraid he'd be soft and get hurt at school or, you know, whatever the thing is. And so I think for parents, it's about understanding, giving yourself permission to not have it. I'm not perfect. Like, you know, like I've never not been a researcher and a parent. My husband's a pediatrician. Our kids will be in therapy. You're right. And the reason why I think that'll be so successful is there's only two kinds of kids you raise. Kids who will ask for help when they need it are kids who won't. And that's as good as it gets is to raise a kid who'll ask for help. Yeah, I never asked for help. Yeah. I was always suffering inside. Yeah, right. And I always felt shameful, guilty. And I just, my way of asking was being angry, resentful, mad, hitting people in sports or outside of sports, because that's all I knew. I'll tell you a story about a guy that I interviewed, very, one of the first men I interviewed when I went from interviewing all women to men was a guy who said, I said, what is shame for you? And he used the P-U-S-S-Y word, which is like just synonymous with shame in male culture, right? And he said, I'll never forget the day that changed my life. He said, I was at football practice. I was a freshman in high school. And he said, the coach yelled, get on the line. And I didn't want to get on the line, the line of scrimmage, in case people don't know. I know you know, but he asked me to make sure I walked through all the sports metaphors with him. And he said, I was afraid to get on the line because I know, you know, it's where people crash into each other. And so I must've had fear on my face because my coach looked at me and said, don't be a P-U-S-S-Y, get on the line. And he said, that's the day that I learned that the way you deal with that is you change that fear into rage. And he said, and I just plowed over the guy across from me. And then he said, then I spent the next 20 years plowing over my wife, my children, my colleagues, the people who worked for me. He said, that's what I did with my fear. Yeah, I mean, I can definitely relate. Yeah. I mean, I remember being picked last on a team once when it was a co-ed sport, we were playing dodgeball on the playground. I think it was third or fourth grade. And there was two captains, two guys. And they were picking one at a time, right? Oh God, brutal. They pick all the guys. And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be the last guy chosen. But then they go and pick all the girls. And then I'm gonna pick my name. I'm just by default, the last pickers team. And so as a boy trying to fit in in third, fourth grade, it was devastating. And I told myself in that moment, I was like, never again will I be picked last at any sport. I'll do whatever it takes. I am going to be a machine. I'm gonna train for six hours a night. I'm going to take no prisoners mentality and just, I mean, I dominated on that dodgeball game that day. I was just like throwing the ball, like just diving everywhere. I was like, never again. You know, cause- And did you ever get picked last again? Never got picked last again. Right. But, and it helped me achieve, you know, was All-State in multiple sports, was All-American in two sports. I broke world records. I played professional football. I play on the USA handball team now. And it guided me towards achieving these things. But it left me feeling very unfulfilled every time I'd achieve them. Or anytime we lose, it was like an attack on my life. Every loss we ever had on a sport, it was like my life was at stake and I felt like I was worthless. Because if I didn't win, that meant no one was going to accept me or I wasn't good enough or I was going to be picked last or something. So I would take it so personally when I wouldn't win. And then I would take it out on my family, my girlfriends, my friends, everything. And I didn't know how to communicate. And I'm still learning. You know, I'm still imperfect every day, but it's like, I wasn't even aware. There was never information about how to connect or how to communicate and feel like it was okay or you're allowed to. Because anytime you try to talk about any vulnerabilities as a guy growing up for me, it was like, you're a P-U-S-S-Y. Yeah. Don't be a little girl. Don't be a B-I-T-C-H. Yeah. You know, all these things. And so it's very, I think it's very hard for me and especially for a lot of men who grew up to stand alone and feel like they belong in an isolated world. If they're not going to join a group, that's going to make fun of them or put other people down. So how do we stand alone when we're not introverted or when we want to be around other people? How do we, how can men communicate better or feel like it's okay to be vulnerable? Because we were talking before about how, you know, most men that I know played sports with would never watch the Power of Vulnerability TED Talk or they would never read, you know, books from you or Oprah that I'm aware of because they would talk bad about, you know, female leaders trying to talk about vulnerability. Yeah. You know, they would say, that's soft, that's weak. Yeah. You know, I don't watch that stuff. I don't read that stuff. And really that's the stuff we need the most, in my opinion. And I think it's changing. I think I told you earlier that I think 50% of the readers of Daring Greatly are men and the vast majority of leaders who bring me into organizations are men. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you why. Wise men. I can, huh, I hope. I can flip it for you on a dime. Yeah. So it used to take me when men would say, this is how the call would go. Hey, we'd love for you to come in and work with our leadership team. We saw your TED Talk, we thought it was great. Are you available? And I'd say, sure, what do you want me to talk about? And they'd say anything but vulnerability and shame. And I would say. Why? So what do you want me to talk about if I don't talk about vulnerability? And they'd say courage. And then I would say, okay. Then I would try to spend like a half an hour explaining the relationship between vulnerability and courage. Because all men want to be brave. Isn't vulnerability courage? Vulnerability is courage. So I only have to ask. Isn't vulnerability power? Yes, I have to ask one question to flip the whole thing, it's this. Vulnerability is defined as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. Can you name one act of courage that you've ever been involved in or that you've ever even witnessed that did not involve uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure? And it's a loaded question because I know the answer is no. Because I've asked it thousands and thousands. I've stood in front of Navy SEALs and Special Forces military personnel and said, give me an example. I want you to try hard to give me an example of courage that didn't require vulnerability. And in 10 years, I've never had a single person be able to come up. I've even had two guys come up to me who were in the military that said, we're gonna think about it and get with you. And I said, oh my God, I said, do it. I would love it. Give me an example of courage, even on the field, that doesn't involve vulnerability. Like if you think you're being brave and it doesn't involve risk or uncertainty, you're not being that brave. If you know how it's gonna turn out, it's not courage. And so in that moment, people go, ----. But I wanna be brave and I don't wanna be vulnerable. And I'm like, therein lies the great dilemma of our time. Yeah, no one wants to be uncomfortable. No one wants to be vulnerable and everyone wants to be brave. And it just doesn't work like that. And anytime we try something new, we've gotta be uncomfortable. Yeah, it's vulnerable. I mean, when I ask people, what is vulnerability? People would say, initiating sex with my wife, sending my child out the door who thinks he's going to make the first chair in orchestra and knowing he's probably not gonna make the orchestra at all. Getting fired, starting my own business, saying I love you first in a relationship, trying to get pregnant after my first miscarriage. I mean, like vulnerability is, it's uncertainty. It's not knowing, but doing it anyway because it's the brave thing to do. And so the problem is, I think, that the greatest shame trigger for men is do not be perceived as weak. And in our culture, we believe that vulnerability is weakness. So you don't have to skip too many steps before you go, hey, it's shaming to be vulnerable. And so men do two things in the face of shame, pissed off or shut down. Put on a mask. And so what we're learning and what people are starting to see very quickly is you cannot be a courageous leader if you're not vulnerable, if you're not willing to have hard, uncomfortable conversations, give hard feedback, receive hard feedback, excavate issues like Charlottesville that no one wants to talk about. Like discomfort is the great enemy of courage. Like my motto is, we say it here all the time, choose courage over comfort because you can't have both. And if you think you're being brave and you're super comfortable, you're not being that brave. Is there an area of your life right now where you don't feel you're courageous enough or something you've been wanting to say to people that you haven't said fully or holding back on? I think the Charlottesville Facebook Live today was hard. Was it? Yeah, oh yes. My voice was shaking. I was shaking. In fact, we got here today and we knew we were gonna film us together, but we were gonna film some other stuff first. I said, I just need to do the Facebook Live because I don't wanna lose my courage. And I think that's hard because when you talk about race and privilege and power, first of all, I'm gonna get death threats and people are gonna say all that stuff. You're wrong either way. You're wrong either way, right. But the ability that I have to opt out of speaking out about it because it doesn't supposedly affect me is the definition of privilege. So I don't believe we can opt out of it. And I know that I'm white, upper middle class, really educated, Judeo-Christian, straight. I know that I've got blinders on that no matter how hard I work, I will say something that is not right and people will come back and they will fire off against me around it and it will hurt, but I'd rather take the chance and it hurting and learning, but it's scary to talk about this stuff today. Do you think? I think. It's really hard. And I try to come from a place of like super authentic and loving of all humanity all the time. I was raised by, I had two great parents, but my mom and two older sisters were really the ones who came back to me after they would go on a date with a guy. They'd be like, Lewis, never do this on a date. You don't always treat women this way. So I've always tried my best. I'm imperfect in so many ways and constantly make mistakes with people. Yeah, me too. But most of my team, I was telling you before, most of my team is women. I think 80% of my team is women. And they get paid more than the men on my team, not because they're women, but because they produce better results. And my business is based on results. I've got people of different ethnicities. I've got people of different sexual orientations. And I had someone tell me last week, they said, you know, white male privilege is a thing. And I think you need to incorporate more values into your organization so that you're not living from this white male privilege place. And I was thinking to my, I was hurt by this because I get it. I'm white. I can't, there's nothing I can do based on the way I was born. There's nothing I can do. Can't change the way how I was born, but I can choose to determine how I want to live and how I want to show up on the world. So I'm constantly trying to be mindful of speaking out more. Because I think that's what a lot of my friends are saying about Charlottesville. If white men aren't opening up and talking about this more, it's not going to come across to the people that are, I guess, marching with torches, which just blows my mind that this is happening still. It blows me away that this is happening. I don't even understand it. I'm like, I'm blown away. I don't know. And I'm just like, how can I be a better, more impactful in this place? And how can we get rid of this? How can we end it? Do you have the answer? I don't know. It just blows my mind. No, and I think we need to do a lot more listening than, you know, and hear what, hear from the people who've been affected by this the longest. I think we do need to speak out. I think white silence around these issues is death. I mean, I just think it's terrible. I don't think we can come in and save the day. I think we need to come in with humility and curiosity and say, this is what I think, and I want to learn, and I want to, if I make mistakes, let me know, and I'll try to make them better. And I think we need to take responsibility. And I think it's easier sometimes for me in my life to just keep asking questions, just keep reading, just keep talking about it. And when I am so uncomfortable that I don't want to do it anymore, just to keep doing it, because to remember that my discomfort is, you know, that's my privilege. And so I don't know that there's an answer other than discussions. And I'm not, I wasn't surprised about Charlottesville, really, no. I just, really, it just blows my mind. Maybe I'm just ignorant to that. I don't think it's about being ignorant to it. It doesn't, you know, I've studied shame for 15 years and fear. Like, that's what it looks like. Yeah. What do you think these individuals marching like this are most shameful of in their own life? Why are they so protective? I would never venture to guess. I don't know, but I do think it's about powerlessness. They feel powerless. Yeah, and I think that people go, oh my God, okay, so the white, you know, the white guy in the khakis and the, you know, fancy polo shirt feels powerless and, you know, cry me a river. Right. I think we don't, we don't give a ---- about that at our own peril. Not caring about it and not trying to understand it. I'm not taking it on my load, for sure. I mean, I'm not going to add it to my back. I got other stuff to do, but I am going to try to understand it because I can't imagine a way through what needs to happen over the next decade. That does not involve understanding pain. There's this incredible James Baldwin quote that says, now I understand why people hold onto their hate so stubbornly, because once they let it go, there's nothing but pain. And I think we dismiss and don't care about that pain at our own peril. Because pain will make itself known. It will not be dismissed. It's not an affect or an emotion that dissipates when it's ignored. Yeah. Well, I think this is fascinating you're saying this because I never wanted to feel the emotional pain. It was so hard to go through. I got a breakup with a girlfriend. Like, I didn't know how to deal with the emotional loss of any type of pain or suffering as a man. And I remember being in the fetal position my freshman year in college for days, sobbing in my dorm room, just curled up in a ball because a relationship ended and I was so sad to be alone and I didn't have this person in my life anymore. And I would take it out on the football field. I was like, I don't wanna feel this type of emotional pain, so how can I inflict as much physical pain on myself and other people to get it out? And it's hard to switch that off and just be like this loving, vulnerable man after you're on the football field, like inflicting pain on other people because you're supposed to. No, and I think whether we play football or not, we're much better at causing pain than we are feeling pain. You don't wanna feel it. No, you don't, and so we cause it and we hurt other people. Yeah, we do. And so, and if you look at leadership, whether you're in an organization leading a country, leading a family, as a parent, one of the cheapest, easiest ways to lead is to give people someone to hate and blame for your own, your misery. And so we have to really watch that in our country right now. So if we, all you have to do when people are in uncertainty and fear is give them someone to blame and give them a reason to blame them and then step back and watch everything just fall apart. And so I think that's happening right now in our country. And so we have to push away the rhetoric we have to own our pain. And let me tell you, it's not like you tell that story about the football field and it's so prophetic because every crisis we're up against right now, almost without exception is about our inability, our unwillingness to deal with pain. If you look at the opioid addiction right now across, somewhere beginning with physicians sent the message, there's no reason for you to hurt at all. Here's a pain reliever. You know, and things are not going well in your life. Well, here's a way to discharge hate and pain that'll make you feel better. Like by drinking or by drinking or sex or drug, whatever. Medicated, addicted, in debt and obese Americans in history. Like our tolerance for discomfort is zero. Yeah. So here's the irony. Soft. So our tolerance. What we're taught in football, don't be soft. Don't be soft. So it's actually our inability to be vulnerable that makes us weak. Yeah, I agree. One of the things I talk about and try to express to as many people as possible is to actually put yourself through pain and discomfort every single day. I try to do this physically through working out to try to push myself farther than I want to where I'm like emotionally want to cry. Because I just know by conditioning myself to feel pain every single day that when a lot of stuff comes my way I'm capable of taking it on and processing the emotions as opposed to being like, I just need a drink. I need this. I need that. I've never been drunk in my life so I don't even know what that feels like. But it's hard, especially as for myself, I'll speak for myself as a man, it's hard growing up learning how to deal with those type of emotions. It's really challenging. There's no class in school that says, okay, when you're feeling this way, Lewis, here's how you're supposed to act. It's vulnerability. Yeah, here's how you're supposed to act. Here's the step-by-step process. Like there's no process that we're taught unless it's our parents or we seek it out. And it's not modeled because I think parents fear kind of soft boys turning into soft men who, I remember interviewing this guy who was in his 70s and I said, what is shame to you? And he's like, shame is being the kid you can shove up against the lockers. Yeah. Shame is being the kid that you shove up? Yeah, being the kid that you can shove up against the lockers. Yeah, yeah. You know, and it's like, but really, we've gotta shift it and we've gotta shift it. I think it starts parenting, school, athletics is huge. Huge. I mean, it's a really, I mean, let me do this. Okay, let's just do this sports thing. Let's do it. Okay, ready? Okay. Two football teams. You're gonna place a bet. Both of them have hurt quarterbacks. Both of them are playing, well, both of them have hurt quarterbacks. This team over here recognizes its vulnerability and it's gonna put in a second stream quarterback. This team ignores its vulnerability and pretends like it doesn't exist. Who are you betting on? Depends on the injury. Oh, Jesus. Hey, because I played hurt my whole life, you know, I would say that most of us would say you are more, you are less likely to win if you do not acknowledge your vulnerabilities as. So even if you play your quarterback, you gotta make sure your line is ready. Exactly, and you gotta switch the plays up. Right, right. If his arm's hurt, you're gonna pass it off. You're gonna pass off, right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Give him more time in the hole, whatever you're gonna do. The team that acknowledges their vulnerabilities. Is gonna be more successful. And is adaptable to change, is gonna be more successful. Right, right. So why do we think, as men, to pretend like you're not vulnerable makes you the most vulnerable? Yeah. Makes you the most susceptible? I mean, we just have data. I mean, just like I could fill this whole room with data. About, you don't get to opt out. Let me ask you this. Do you know a guy in the world, you know a lot of guys, right, who can say, I've existed this point in my life without being uncertain, at risk, or emotionally exposed? No. Right, you can't not do vulnerability. But you can pretend like you don't. Then you're not making choices over the behaviors you engage in when you're vulnerable. Then you don't know when you're vulnerable, and then you're acting nutty. And I think you pay major prices. Oh, yeah. When you don't, when you aren't aware, or when you're not acting like you're aware. Yeah. You just act like everything's fine, or you don't need help, you don't need support, you don't need to address a situation, or grieve, or whatever it is. No. That's when you get hurt the most. It's when you get hurt the most. It's when you suffer the most, and I think that's when the most anger, frustration, rage, and, I guess, divergent happens. And I was watching this video last night where they were documenting the whole process of the Charlottesville thing. I think Vice was doing this. The person interviewing the leader, one of the guys who was the leader of the marches or whatever, was saying about how this is our land, and our forefathers were white, and it belongs to us. It's like this whole thing that it belongs to a certain race or something. I can't, it just blows my mind. It's like. Forgetting clearly about the Native Americans who were here. Who were here. Before we took it. Right, exactly. But I mean, it just blows my mind that all this comes back to feeling like we need to belong, I guess, and protect what was ours, or what's our right, or something. It all comes back to identity and belonging. Belonging, yeah. But underneath identity and belonging, there's something that we don't talk about, and it comes down to power. It comes down to power. I mean, I think what we're witnessing is power over is last stand. And that's what I love, you write about how I think most men who come from this place feel like power is only one person, one group can have the power, as opposed to we can spread the power throughout the world. Like it's a pepperoni pizza. Right. Like if I give Louis a little power, I'm gonna have less, so make sure I'm comfortable giving it to you. Right. When it's not. Don't give any slices away. Don't give slices away. Hold all the, and so what we see around the world right now, not just with this administration, but globally, is we see the concept of power over making a last stand. And it is not going to work. What is going to work moving forward with the completely, devastatingly difficult problems we have at hand is power with and power to. Power with each other. Collective power. The things that are killing us right now, we're not going to solve by ourselves as a nation. They're global issues. We need global solutions. We need everyone at the table for them. But that is a really, I mean we are at a huge turning point in history that should not be minimized or misunderstood. I mean for the first time ever, the problems that challenge us the most are problems that will not be solved with national solutions. They are global problems that require global solutions and collaboration. And for a lot of people, that's really scary. Hard. Hard, hard. What about us? What about me? And last stands, you know about last stands. Last stands are violent. Last stands are fueled by desperation. Whatever it takes. And fear and whatever it takes. Risking it all. And so what you're seeing right now are people risking it all. Showing up at these marches with frickin' tiki torches. I mean like, it's not even starting around the Polynesian, how the Polynesian people feel about their tiki torches. But I mean like, with tiki torches, basically, basically mimicking the Ku Klux Klan. It's so crazy. But without cheats. This is power over's last stand. And these folks are nostalgic for a time that never existed. Where they thought they had the power. Where they, yeah. What they're interested in is, it was so much better back then. And what they're not saying is, when people knew their place. And so, it's going to get harder. If you had a message to give to our nation's leader, what would you say? Roosevelt said that the Presidents, the Presidency, above all else, is a place for moral leadership. And I believe there are lines that we do not cross. There are morality lines, etched in dignity, about people's inherent worth. And we should never cross those lines. And they have been crossed so many times around immigration, around women, around building walls. And that, at the very least, we can argue about policy, we can argue about whether, social security lock boxes, or what should we do around taxation, healthcare, those are important things. But at the very least, a person in that office should be a moral leader. And that line should never be crossed. Because when you cross it, it says so much more about your integrity than it does about the people you're attacking. Yeah, yeah. If you had a microphone, and everyone had headphones on, was listening to the end of this microphone, and you got a message to share to all the men in the world, within 60 seconds or less, and all the men were gonna put on headphones and hear a message from you. It's very Orwellian, I like it. And you got one chance to say something to these men, from all over the world, and they could all understand English, and they understood you. You're taking care of all the logistics. All the logistics, they got it on, it's not fuzzy, there's no Wi-Fi signal, everyone's got access to hearing your voice, for 60 seconds. All the men, and all the women are actually standing by listening as well. What would you say to all the men of the world, in general? Golly. You know, I wouldn't wanna screw that up. Let me think. Yeah. I think I would say, that vulnerability is not weakness. It's about the willingness to show up and be seen, when you can't control the outcome. And it is actually our greatest measure of courage. So, show up, in an authentic way, and let us see your hearts, because we know how lonely you actually are. Wow. Yeah, men are lonely. I mean, it's really, men are lonely, it's really hard. Yeah. But I would not, I think that's, I don't think I would say anything differently to women either. You know, because I think, there is certainly, you know, for women the greatest shame trigger is, do it all, do it perfectly, and never let them see you sweat, look perfect, work perfect, look perfect. In all areas. In all areas. The workforce, at home. Yeah. Yeah, be smoking hot and brilliant and this, but don't ever look like you're putting any effort toward it. And so. It's so easy, right? Right, it is. I don't understand why my sisters have not nailed that. I think, so, it's hard for women to be vulnerable because it's less than perfect. You know? So I don't. You mean women aren't wearing masks? Yeah. And it's terrible, because then the two collide. And you see in a lot of partnerships, I mean, I've seen it so much in my research, this contract we have, where I'll stay smoking hot and awesome, and you know, money and provider shame is such a real thing for men. And you know, you do this, and this is our contract, and we're both in straight jackets till we die. Yeah, and so. How do we remove those jackets? We just start getting real with each other. We just start being really honest. And we see each other. You know, we really see each other. Yeah. Wow. I've got a few minutes left, so I'm gonna be mindful of these questions. I know, unfortunately. Let's go now. I could ask you, I could talk to you for hours. Is there anything you feel ashamed of still? Oh, I have moments for sure. Like, I will have moments of, but now I know. I mean, we can't ever get rid of shame. What we can do is develop resilience to shame. So when it happens and it washes over, that warm wash that makes you feel small and not enough, when that washes over me, rather than yelling at my kids or just decimating myself with hateful language, you know, and like, you're stupid or you're not, now when it washes over me, I'm like, okay, I'm in shame. Don't talk, text, or type. What happened? So there are still, I mean, I still have triggers around it. I still have triggers around it. I still think it's probably the same. Motherhood, trying to, you know, do everything and balance everything and be where I'm supposed to be, and that's still hard sometimes, you know? What's the process that someone should take on when they feel shame, anger, rage? Well, shame I can really help you with is, first and foremost, talk to yourself like you'd talk to someone you love. So if you really, if something happens and you're overwhelmed with shame, the first thing you need to do is get back on your emotional feet. Don't talk, text, or type to anyone because one of the things we wanna do is push that ---- out on other people. I'm good at that. Yeah. I'm guilty of that. Yeah, no, yeah. So just get into a dark, quiet place and then talk to yourself like you'd talk to someone you love. Just be like, dude, it's okay. Like, you screwed this up. What you said was super hurtful. You're gonna have to circle back and clean that stuff up. But give yourself a break here, just like I would talk to Ellen or Charlie if they made a mistake. Then reach out and talk to someone about what you're feeling. Shame cannot survive being spoken. So if I call you and I'm like, oh my God, Lewis, I'm in a shame shitstorm, you're not gonna believe what happened, and you listen to me and you respond empathically or empathetically with something like, oh my God, I've been there, or oh God, I get it, I'm sorry, that sucks. Shame can't hold on because shame can't survive empathy. I 100% agree with that. A quick example, for 25 years, I held onto the shame of being sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. And I was like, if anyone knew this about me, my life was over. That's how shameful I felt, embarrassed and abused I felt from the experience. And when I finally had the courage to share it, it took me a couple years to share it over and over many, many times. I don't feel shameful. I can talk about it openly and freely without feeling embarrassed, without feeling weak, soft, vulnerable because I own the experience and it's not something I have to hold in and react through rage because I can just share it and I can communicate as opposed to hold into this. And I think whenever I face anything that I'm scared to talk about now, I just say, well, how can I talk about it? How can I journal? I like to journal first. Oh, that's huge. So no one can shame me. Right? No one has to feel that. No, that's huge. Yeah. And then I start having conversations. And when we have ownership over that shame, I feel like it doesn't own us anymore. I mean, so that's a perfect example. First of all, it's devastating that that happens. It happens to boys. One in six. Yeah, and they think that's an underestimate. Yeah. They think that that. No, one in six is what's known. Yeah, and they think it's probably double that because of our culture and inability of boys to speak safely even to their own parents around it. I never told anyone. Right. My parents didn't know. Right. So here's the example exactly. You talk about it now. So two choices. You own your story. You get to write the ending. You don't own the story. The story owns you. So then you talk about it now. So shame can't hold on. But then people see and hear you talking about it and it gives them permission to talk about it. That's why shame cannot hold on to being spoken. So your courage to talk about that deflates shame. It takes it out of the air. It's like filtering poison out of water because you've got the courage to speak up. I mean, and that's how it works. And that's how all of this works is that we own our story or it owns us. Final two questions. This is called the three truths. I ask everyone at the end of the interview is the three truths. You've written many books, all number one New York Times bestsellers. Let's imagine it's your last day many, many years from now. You get to write the story when it's your last day on your own terms, right? You've written every book you've ever wanted to write. You've said everything you've always wanted to say. You've done every video interview, whatever it is, you've achieved anything you set out to do. But for whatever reason, it's all erased and gone. So no one has access to any of this information. And you're there with all the people you care about. And you have a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three things you know to be true about everything you've experienced in life. This is all people would have of your message left behind. What would you say are the three truths for you? Steve, Ellen, and Charlie were my greatest true loves. For sure. After that, everything seems small. Love takes courage. Be brave, let yourself be seen. And don't wait for the grownups to get there. That's the myth. We don't know what we're doing. We're just putting our best foot forward. So if you have an idea or an answer, go for it. Before I ask the final question, I want to make sure you guys go get this book. I'm scared for the final question, but cut. Let's go, wrap it up. The final question's easy. But this is Braving the Wilderness, The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone. Make sure you guys go get this book. It's going to be a game changer. Highly recommend it. I'll have it linked up everywhere on the site and below this video. Very powerful. You're an incredible writer. And I just know this is going to serve so many people who feel alone in the world of uncertainty. And I want to acknowledge you, Brené, for being an incredible gift to the world with all of your imperfections and the beautifulness that you have within you. I think it takes so much courage to share these things the way you've been doing them for years, decades. You've been opening up and talking about it and to bring it out to a public platform and continue to dive in deeper. I acknowledge you because the weight that it carries of listening to everyone else's pain, as I've started to open up about mine, I just feel the weight of everyone now sharing with me. I can only imagine the weight that you get to carry and are privileged to carry because of the work you're getting to do and the impact you have on so many people who feel, who are suffering, who feel like there is no hope, there is no way out, who are stuck in all areas of their life. You give people such inspiration and tools and education on how to transform their life. So I acknowledge you for all the work that you do. Oh, thank you. You're welcome, you're welcome. This is the final question. That's amazing. You're welcome, it's my pleasure, yeah. The final question is simple, it's what's your definition of greatness? To own your story and love yourself through that process. That's greatness to me. Appreciate you. Thank you very much. Thank you.