Joshua Tree Bolts!

live all right we're live are we live it's countdown come on all right so this is our first live here on youtube and we're going to talk about joshua tree and the new climbing management plan that they plan on doing so we're going to go through their website here on this live stream and we're going to talk about our answers and read your comments while uh we go through it so this is officially starting in five minutes so we're going to we're going to wait yeah we can wait we'll wait for some people to come in yeah and we'll at 10 a.m in five minutes we'll do another intro and hopefully be able to cut off the beginning of this episode when we publish it on the channel so let's check if we're we're live oh yeah let's watch her yeah whoa all right let's get some people on here hey do we have a person is that you no it's not me all right stick with us we're going to start this in a minute and get a few people on here joshua tree live bolts oh let's practice live screen let's see here share edit bobby where do you think i could share my screen if i click that that's not going to do it live chat share live stream yeah we don't need to do that some feedback why not able to share my screen how do i share screen is that us no no how do i share a screen let's get some more people on here yeah i'm not seeing it anywhere okay so let's go to edit enable live chat live redirect details visibility public maybe that's why yeah playlists audience this is why we started it earlier yeah education how do i i don't know how to share a screen uh it's fine they can look it up we will there's a link change is saved on youtube live you're learning i just got a notification oh well let's see how many people join now because i think that's just us how to share share screen on facebook live youtube live oh we're getting getting some comments hey david all right sweet people are joining wow this is neato okay welcome to our joshua tree episode where we are going to talk about bolts and the climbing management plan that they want to uh have a public opinion on we're the public and we have an opinion and uh i was looking at the questions and i was like oh this would be a great thing to do kind of as a group is discuss what kind of answers we would want to submit uh so i don't know how to share my screen if anybody knows how let me know in the comments because uh i'll just put the screen up here let me put the copy of the see here the thing that we're gonna all right that is the website there in the comments for us to uh refer to live in germany nice bobby that other guy and that other guy that's hilarious i'm french and still have an opinion on the management of a country i've never been in uh you do because this could set a precedence for how other at least national parks are going to be treated in united states and possibly other areas so how can we manage ourselves i think this is super interesting we are growing as a community we have a whole new sport called high lining installing bolts and our population is growing and our rocks are not we don't have more rocks the same amount of rocks as we've always had so it's kind of things are getting over saturated so the national park service in joshua tree i'll pull this up ask for a public comment and for the next few weeks next 43 days they are interested in our opinion and they have six questions that we will cover in this video and after this period of time they're going to start making decisions and opinions are harder to implement if they're given at too late of a date so this is a great time to share um let's see here there's been a lot of calls to action to fill this comment section out from the access fund and local climber groups in that area um we're not joshua tree locals but we have climbed down there and we really feel that this uh will be setting precedence for other um climbing areas and national parks at the very least yeah i i sometimes visit joshua tree only once a year i've highlighted there before i've never installed bolts in joshua tree and i've rigged some all-natural highlines however we've done bolting projects in yosemite and we feel that anything that joshua tree does that is successful would possibly be implemented in yosemite and so um there are friends of joshua tree and the american safe climbing association that access fund an access fund that do try to preserve access there but this is a new management plan that they're trying to implement and um because there are some stuff we're going to talk about in this video now i got to talk to the superintendent of joshua tree of uh his title the guy who's in charge of this and it was a super nice conversation and he kind of explained to me why they have this and the process and how like just anything in the government is slow at making things happen that's why they've given i think two months uh open for the public to have an opinion then they're gonna have meetings and hearings and all the stuff so they can make rules and once those rules are in place a ranger is basically just there to enforce the rules they don't make the rules this is when the rules are made and that's a super interesting yeah from brian's conversation and um uh seeing uh dave talk he is very climber friendly um i believe he's a climber himself um they're just trying to uh figure out a system that works for everybody um um cool jetsy uh i see your comment about the dyno maybe email me more time after this and i'll i'll hit you up um i had uh 30 people hit me up right before i left on a trip nope siri go away i had about 30 people hit me up uh right before i left on a trip and it's just um i wasn't able to reply to everybody i thought i did though i thought i told everybody that i would get back to them anyways um let's go through the questions go through the questions first question is there are climbs on many rock formations in the park some of which may have native american artifacts or rock art or are important spiritual sites to native american communities how could the park best address native americans concerns and how can the park best address cultural resources and tribal values that may be impacted by reparational use somebody recently bolted over petroglyphs and i believe that was in moab yeah uh near arches near arches that's pretty messed up i don't know what kind of uh petroglyphs and stuff are in joshua tree but i don't think we should have any bolts or any climbing in that yeah i'm i'm perfectly fine with areas that have cultural significance being closed off to climbers um especially in joshua tree where there are so many other rocks um the similar instance that i'm thinking of is in wyoming uh with devil's tower um and there's other names for it that might be a little bit more sensitive um they have a voluntary closure in june that's kind of a compromise because that's the biggest rock for several hundred miles and uh climbers agree me not to climb there because that um month or and that rock has cultural significance to native americans we don't deal with that in europe as we are the natives well that's a good point uh so i don't we just need to know the areas that are blocked off in yosemite there is um not i mean there's native american stuff but there's birds birds nesting in peregrine falcon seasons and we kind of stay away from the areas it's like there's more than just us out there so i definitely think that's worth considering um yeah it's an easy compromise for us climbers to there's enough rocks out there yeah and to respect um the rules and then respect um all the biological resources and the cultural resources second question right now most climbs cannot be reached from official trails and a lot of unofficial trails have appeared over time created by both climbers and other users what do you think about building official trails to certain climbing areas and then requiring people to stay on those trails so that vegetation and wildlife can come back into the trampled areas i have an opinion it has to be really easy and stupid proof and people will naturally go i'm talking to my friend while i'm hiking it's got to be a clear trail that's marked or you're hiking out after dark or you're hiking out out of after dark it just needs to be easy and obvious and ideally the most direct path i mean if you have to go way around something a lot of people would be tempted to take the direct route uh i definitely think there should only be one trail that goes to a rock yeah i think this is something that we as climbers really need to do better on um because uh we're active we're fit and we tend to like oh there's rock i'm going to and go straight to it no matter if it's the most if the trail makes most sense uh we don't care about erosion or trampling plants or whatnot and i think putting in intelligent trails um is really really important and then uh trying to um eradicate as many of those social sucker trails as we can um yeah i think we should just have really clear trails the stuff you're developing half the stuff you're doing is about developing the trail to get to it yeah i spend a lot of time figuring out good trails a lot of time he's trying to make the whole area sustainable and not just the bolts he's putting in but bathroom use trails locals and everything so um same thing needs to happen in the park yeah uh rock climbers use different tools to ensure their safety while climbing one of the more common tools is a bolt which is drilled into the rock with a metal hanger that allows the climber to anchor a rope to the rock there are thousands of these bolts throughout the park many of which are in wilderness does the placement of these bolts affect your enjoyment of the park yes it it helps me enjoy the park uh there are a lot of routes that i climb that i would have enjoyed more if there were more bolts yeah a lot of the routes in joshua tree are hard ass badass they're difficult to climb because the bolts are scared out they're scary um and we'll get to that in a little bit on how bolting should happen but uh if you're not a climber i don't know i don't think they bother me yeah um and in a in a situation like that i think it's worth taking the extra time to camouflage the bolts um there's a number of ways to do that some that are better than others yep so um wilderness area come to find out is an area they're trying to keep wildernessy and so there are actually rules and laws in place to basically do nothing except the most important necessary things for that area and bolts are kind of like how necessary are they well maybe an anchor at the top to get off the rock that's kind of that gray area but what they're trying to stay away from is sport routes where it's just bolts every six feet all the way up a rock and uh i actually think that's illegal yeah well it's against policy and depending on how you read the um the act the bolts in general qualify as permanent installations and uh can be considered illegal the national park service has in my opinion taken a fairly lenient stance on them and allowed them in situations where they're really needed uh such as anchors or such as like big runouts that aren't protected but they do frown on uh sport routes in wilderness areas so that's i think one of the big rules that are going to come where it's like whether that's a huge no-no or whether or not some would be okay um but if you have a lot of climbs on a thing then you got more trails there uh we impact stuff we have to acknowledge the fact that we do impact an area uh as conversation with david was that slackliners uh even when we rig stuff all natural kind of brings a spectator syndrome where you can get a crowd of 100 people going and that that has an impact as well oh yeah um it's a visually interesting sport and so people who aren't used to seeing that are going to stop and park park maybe where they're not supposed to and and try to go out of their way to see it trampling more stuff and having more of an impact now those visitors are already in the park i don't think the spectators thing is um i don't see it as a huge problem i mean they can all stand on the trail or the parking lot and and look at it but of course i'm the guy who wants to highline so ideally if we were just kind of like out of the way then that makes them pretty happy uh we get to do our sport without having too much of an impact yeah uh there was a comment jewels um is joshua tree an area where you can use bolts and it absolutely or sorry you use trad year and it absolutely is there's a ton of trad climbs in joshua tree a lot that's uh i liked you doing trash i learned so i never really did a lot of the sport routes so yeah most of the stuff i've ever done there was trad doesn't mean you can't climb just means you have to be a little bit more creative the hall of horror line hot highline that we rigged was all natural and that's kind of fun to rig things without bolts as a highliner so that's kind of the culture is it's more impressive to establish a highline that requires no bolts than putting bolts in so luckily that's happened for us and highlining has curved enough 2013 it exploded and then it's kind of like leveled out a little bit so i don't think our impact in the park is as huge as it is it was a few years ago uh what's the next question number four i'll read it bolts are common on climbs at joshua tree both in and out of the wilderness area and many climbs would be almost impossible without them but nps policy says bolts in wilderness areas should be rare and that both intensive climbs including sport climbs are inappropriate in wilderness what kind of climbs you think the national park should have in wilderness given this policy are there types of climbs that are acceptable outside of wilderness areas but not in wilderness areas back to you guys uh that's pretty much what we just covered um yeah i'm fine with sport climbs not being in wilderness areas yeah i am too i don't know what areas are wilderness and yosemite i know there's different parts of yosemite but yeah um i mean most of the stuff i do is trad anyways uh the all the bolting we did in yosemite this last year was just to kind of replace things that already existed top top anchors which the national um the wilderness act is okay with yeah yeah um so yeah i think we've covered that um replacement of aging bolts and fixed anchors must consider how the climb is accessed from a parking lot uh if the route is in wilderness and if the route meets the expectation of a quality joshua tree national park climb how could the park determine if a route meets the nps and climbing community standards who should determine if and when a bolt needs to be replaced what role should the first ascensionist have and i'd like to pair this up with the sixth question national park service policy also requires that nps issues a permit before a new bolt is placed or replaced what should nps consider when deciding whether to issue a permit or not that's a lot to cover but it kind of uh they're kind of together you want to go for that um so in areas that i am in um that kind of bolting wilderness starts in yosemite at 100 feet off the ground okay that's interesting we have to confirm that but yeah that's interesting so in areas that i replace bolts um there it's not required to have a permit and i think having a permit for replacing bolts it should be easy if they have one um if somebody like myself is going to uh take the time and spend the money and like give up a day of climbing to go replace a bolt uh they think that route's probably pretty important and worth spending that effort on so i'm not sure how much the park should be involved in that process um i'm perfectly okay um like there being a little in a national park there being a little barrier to entry like um to get a bolting permit but i them deciding which route should be revolted or not that seems like a lot of bureaucratic hassle that's not necessary so let's back up so if it's in a wilderness area and it's not a climb that should even be there that that's kind of like one of the parts of the question is yeah oh well and if they decide it shouldn't be there um take it out like don't let it age out and become dangerous that people are still going to climb just take it out passable you know when they put in stop signs is after i think several people die going through the intersection i don't know if that's true but when are we supposed to replace bolts when it's just a little bit of rust on them not really but a little rust isn't going to hurt anybody a lot of rust is big variable and uh do we replace things when they start to break that's when i replaced my ropes no but um yeah i i like having stainless steel everywhere joshua don't know that and uh doesn't get a lot of water technically zinc plated stuff would last a long time there but why not put in stainless you're going to go through all the work yeah especially if you're replacing something if you're going to do the work to go through the work to replace a bolt on a climb that you think is valuable enough to replace a bolt you're not saving enough money to use zinc plated stuff titanium is not necessary in really anywhere except near the ocean or like areas that have corrosive chemicals limestones different types of areas that that are obvious but anyways new bolts uh new bolts i could see why they would want a permit system now let's back up a little bit bolting used to be very cowboy it's still very cowboy if you want to take the time to go establish something we worship the first ascensionists and the fact they put those bolts and they didn't ask anybody nobody's ever got a permit to put a bolt in lost aerospire but some people were like whoa you changed them without asking and it's like well there's no real i mean i'm not gonna touch El Capitan without asking after all the responses on lost aerospire but i've never known anybody to ask that's not like a culture i'm in over here it's you go do it if you want to do it just leave less trace don't don't re-bolt something that don't change where the bolts are yeah that's a first ascensionist issue that comes up with that's what role should the first is yeah what what role does the first ascensionist have yes they climbed it in that fashion where they only have that protection but a lot of the climbs in Joshua Tray on climbable because they're too too hard too dangerous they're all x factor like i'm reading through the book and it just says x r x r you're like what the hell um bobby puts in bolts bolted routes that are new friendly and so anybody who's trying to learn how to climb a 5a isn't going to be like on a run out you can see that in our bolting videos how he's like puts them pretty close to each other not that close yeah but the screen's only this big so i can't go further um yeah so uh we kind of circle back to replacing bolts and kind of an issue that brought up is um should the fa be um contacted when bolts are being replaced and i don't think so like if you're moving bolts or retro bolting adding bolts uh yeah fa should probably have a consideration but if the fa is no longer maintaining their route with good hardware um yeah who i mean somebody who's community service minded enough to go and replace that hardware i don't think they should have to jump through a bunch of hoops to do that the national park service does not want to babysit bolting they don't have time they have millions of visitors to deal with national parks have a bigger problems than bolting especially slackliners they just don't they don't have time so if we can self-regulate a little how could we how can we confirm somebody is good at it because that's a a concern that was brought up in those questions and a concern david has like how do you know who's gonna do it right yeah after 400 break tests i'm still trying to learn how to do it wrong we just to get a bolt that would fail under a normal climbing ball short wedge bolts in sandstone in wet sandstone short bolts and wet sandstone are dangerously low yeah short skinny mechanical but it's just like too much glue not clean holes expired epoxy we've just tested like so many things and a lot of stuff hasn't come out yet so many things that just bolts don't come out as easy as like they're all super strong and to be clear we're not recommending doing any of those things but we've tested waste worst case scenarios and they're still rusty leaper hangers are breaking at 20 kilonewtons yeah doesn't mean they all do that it just means i'm not as concerned about bolts as i used to be i'm concerned about rocks i have more faith in cams and nuts and the gear we use and have less faith in rocks so um i don't think we need to have some huge vetting process on whether or not somebody's installing right it'd be nice to know that they were using the right hardware it'd be nice to know that they glanced at the bolting bible or have put in a couple hundred bolts somewhere else which i don't know how do you get yeah i need experience without putting in bolts but you have to have experience before you put in bolts go with somebody yeah i mean i i mean i think mentorship is super important and like would be super helpful unfortunately like i didn't have access to that i looked for that ryan same deal um so we decided to develop our own resources since your videos i only use expired glue and dirty holes i'm glad i'm glad you really picked up we were trying to put down there uh so can do what if we or somebody like access fund or the as asca what if they did like a bolting certification process that wasn't hard hard for them to manage it wasn't hard for you to get you just like hey i've put in these here's my resume i've practiced you've done in your driveway here's a video of me putting in a bowl here's a video of me doing in my backyard somewhere and taking a one-page questionnaire and being like ah this person is past whatever like getting a driver's license like an easy barrier to entry that shows you care enough to go through the process and then let's say the access finder asca gives you a stamp of approval and then the national park be like oh you know what you're doing what do you want to change we'll give you a permit if that's okay and it doesn't sound like it'd be too hard of a process there the rangers feel accessible in yosemite to me now so if i felt like something on el cap needed to be changed i could be like hey what do you think about this is what i want to change it they're not trying to keep us from having safe boats they're not trying to keep us from having fun they're trying to like follow the laws and help millions of people enjoy the same area so it still looks good in 20 years and it's um and you can tell he's almost 40 that he has that opinion yeah the fact i care about rules means i'm getting older uh we did a tv show called pushing the line it comes out and i believe in june it's on discovery plus that was a shameless plug there but anyways during the show it was in last october um bobby was helping on it as well we got to work with the blm closely because blm followed us around everywhere while we were filming this it was a month-long process and um i see why the blm wants to keep an eye on things especially a commercial shoot or a commercial gig like that where there was many people doing a thing for many weeks and had a lot of impact and it was in areas that we loved and it was like whoa if the blm wasn't here to like keep keep it to a minimum uh they still let us have the show they want us to do that they just want us to like not screw the area yeah and i was like oh wow because it's like if it's just you and your friend it doesn't feel like a lot of trash a lot of walking and stomping and nobody walks in single file lines through the desert kind of a bummer yeah it's everyone likes to walk two by two or six by six depending on how big their group is so um if people have brought up uh camouflage hangers we have a section of that in the bolting bible um it's doesn't last very long and so there's a i mean complicated question um mentioned earlier uh glue-ins uh you don't they are way lower impact even stainless steel i've thought about camouflaging glue-ins but half the time on some of the rock that i bolt i can't find the glue-in just stainless steel and i put it in um and there's a heat treatment um that you can do with stainless um that you bring it up to a certain temperature and that causes before you glue it before you glue it yeah and that that causes um a little layer on the outside of the bolt to form and there's a long range from like light tan or yellowish to like deep purple and there's some some ranges in there that kind of match um that would match a lot of rock colors i am a painting contractor when i'm not breaking things and it doesn't you're clipping a carabiner to you're going to scratch it off um i was just on the fixed lines going up to heart ledges on el capitan and all the metolius powder coated hangers powder coats almost all gone and they're starting to rust like it's got to just be stainless there's no coating or anything that's going to last and the fiery method and just keeping it the natural metal is is the only way that's gonna yeah and to be clear that's not something i've played around with um yet because i don't feel like i need to camouflage my bolts but it is um something that other people are doing what about preventing bolting on archaeology sites um yeah we covered that earlier in the video it's if it's special to somebody there's enough rocks out there for us to climb we really don't need to be climbing in every square inch of the earth so a lot of that um is education like um is that something that the park can do like in that situation in moab that seems like that guy ignored a lot of information that's already out there but i mean that's something sense the park can do like in pamphlets and like having signs and stuff like this is what it looks like avoid these zones just climbing a rock has impact right so like uh from from the valley floor you look up at lost aerospire you can see the line that people climb because that's where there's no um there's no lichen yeah on that area for you know six feet that's not six feet uh that's why my screen is uh six feet wherever people's feet are constantly being placed so imagine that being on a petroglyph or a um anything that's special you're gonna see just like a uc on the trail um impact from people walking you're gonna see that on rock so uh let's see what other questions you guys have um i feel like petroglyph why do we even have to protect petroglyphs like it should be so common sense to not screw that up education i think is a huge thing um if people think it's special they're not going to screw it up yeah if people think it's just some four-year-old did some shitty graffiti and they don't realize that it's 7 000 years old one or two thousand years well what i saw the uh when i was in moab we got to take a helicopter ride over to um the large panel of petroglyphs forget the area that was older than the pyramids that wall that panel uh super fascinating and it just kind of looks like some climbers were bored but they're special and they're old and like i didn't know i don't know much about petroglyphs i don't see them often so education's huge that's why we do bolt busters like hey this is how bolts fail use common sense when you're putting them in every situation is different every bolt and glue is different can we go to the top of these questions and just come down and yeah they're interesting ones yeah we can uh let's see here uh show me your bolts jordan brewer can you say hi to me hi um since when did humans get taken out of the nature equation um yes animals and plants are all too often put before humans by tree hugging loons i am 50 on that side of the argument let me climb my rocks but i also see how much of an impact things have well i mean why do we need to have more impact than we need to have to find the rocks i mean mars looks cool and all but this place is still pretty nice so i you know we're terraforming mars but we're un-terraforming the earth i don't know um yeah i love bolts when 100 people stop to watch me flail on the five six uh well so david said there was 800 bolts that were placed without permits in the last how many years in the last i don't know since they've been keeping track that's a lot to keep track of um it's really hard for them to manage it'd be nice if we did a little bit more self-management because then they wouldn't manage us there's more people bolting out there um i don't know bobby and i have made bolting cool and if that was something like more people are going to do now or if less people are going to do it because they see how much work goes into it i don't know hopefully people do it better so here's a good point a lot of trad lines will have bolted anchors this is um gavin um and which he thinks is important a lot of uh tree anchors um can cause environmental damage which i think is an excellent point especially in joshua tree uh because uh people have anchored off of joshua trees and pulled them over which the big no-no and it's joshua trees aren't that strong feel like you're singling out slackliners is that something you all do well climbers don't do that slackliners have pulled trees down i know climbers have as well i've heard stories of that yeah or or putting so much wear on it that it dies yeah gavin all said i think replacing bolts should be as easy as possible to keep climbs safe and up to date yes if there's a lot of bs in order to change the bolt they're not going to get changed as often do i think old bolts are going to fail and kill us especially in a low moisture environment not really so how many of these actually should be replaced i don't know um the last project we did was the spire and the reason we did that is because the bolts were pretty gnarly highliners are using them there were too many um and there was multiple reasons to do it but i'm not trying to go and change every freaking bolt in yosemite that has a little rust on it so uh rather be um how about mandatory stainless powder coated to match rock color or they get chopped um i think making stainless a priority um like ryan just said in that environment it's not as critical but i mean i i'm never going to put in a plate of steel bolt that's permanent um powder coats just not going to last yeah i mean you would have to go back and start chopping all the uh five-year-old um roberto have you how can a french person give an opinion in this matter have you been it's a bolting nightmare there are places that are a shit show um because people just kind of uh have bolting wars uh ego is like a yin and the yang and bolting it uh is a reason people bolt well it's also a reason people are like chop a bolt and leave it or what's that called environmental terrorist yeah should be an environmental terrorist like that's positive and negative to everything um there's a question about permits do you need a permit for each bolt um pretty much yeah so i think the permit process is something like this is the climb i want to replace um these are the bolts these are how many bolts i'm going to replace um pretty sure you can yeah um but they're going to basically lay down some laws um in their new on their new climbing management plan and i'm actually going to put this in the comments that's not correct okay so the bottom of this has a pdf let me delete this one and the pdf at the bottom of this page is their new climbing management plan idea and that's why they want our opinion now call to action fill this out submit your answers uh to these six questions to them on their on literally the thing i just posted so uh that way let's say there's 112 of us now there'll be maybe another thousand or two thousand people that see this if everybody submits this only takes a minute we've already talked about kind of our opinions put your own that way uh there's enough thoughts for them to go through for them to get like a big picture view of what we need as climbers and it also shows how much is as the community that we care about this resource that we're willing to take the time to um give input when they've asked for it if only 20 people fill this thing out they're like oh this just isn't that important to people and and it kind of is this is the instead of bitching later about it this is the time to well and this is not something they're doing willy-nilly like they've spent several years and probably thousands if not um a lot more dollars uh researching this they've like cataloged thousands of routes in the park um like they've put a lot of time and energy to um understanding the issue and trying to come up with good solutions yeah i do feel like they care and are trying and i don't actually know if david climbs or not um in the open forum that i saw he talked about coming to the park first as a climber okay so um yeah it's a lot of the people who do manage the park don't use it the way we use it and so they do need to hear from us so please please go to the link i'll put that in the description of this video when we make this public and then yeah um how about mentolis hanger stickers those are not good enough not super good bolting regulation sounds like certification for tattooing oh these are actually really fun um seven bolts have already failed in joshua tree interesting that's easy to believe um yeah i'm not saying they don't need to be replaced i just think sometimes people replace things that are not bad yet um so the question is when do you change them who determines that yeah anybody motivated enough to go change i don't think the national park is gonna change it yeah they don't want to they don't want to they don't want to manage us doing it any more than hey i'm doing this cool thanks for letting us know kind of a more formal process than that but um yeah rope access and climbing podcast educate yourself and respect the space speaking of rope access and climbing podcasts we may or may not have a really good video coming out tomorrow so we uh collab done something it's pretty cool um glue on natural rock chicken heads and girth hitch them problem solved not saying that's a bad idea until somebody finds them well and complains about it to be strong enough to hold on to the rock you'd still need a bolt into the rock true but just like when i get a uh fake tooth what are these called implant the implant they are gonna put a female end in my jaw and then a male stud in the tooth you could actually put a bolt glue and a bolt into a rock i'm not saying how to do this we we're going deep could make that bomber but that's not ideal um i don't know if i'm going to save lives on this channel because more people might actually try slacklining and highlining statistically that's not good yes actually they do help manage it you guys actually talked to climbing rangers we did um so we're talking specifically about replacing bolts we're not talking about climbing management in general we're talking about specifically replacing bolts and um you can disagree with me yeah but i don't think the park wants to replace bolts the park wants to not have bolting issues and to manage the other stuff they have on their plate so as frictionless as it is for them as possible as frictionless as possible for us to get the permits to know what to change and when to change it um and so the truth defenders i've set hundreds of concrete anchors as an electrician and i'm certified by healthy how different is the process and bolt type to construction not much um there's some um i would say aesthetic techniques that you can do to make it look nice and clean or whatever not that everybody even does that in climbing but we don't really have a certification for bolting and climbing just kind of just do it sometimes you write a bolting bible because you have so many notes you just do your own research and um that's a good question i don't know if we want to answer it what's the question which one in practice do bolters really adhere to hand drilling or do they low-key sneak in uh lithium hammer drill uh we we hand drill blaster aspire yep well that's why we if you look at the video i still have soreness into my elbow from hand drilling if you look at the video we brought seven 20 year olds because you can't bring a drill um there are ways around it but as highliners we're on top so a lot easier to just like muscle it uh yeah definitely people stealth bolt um but i mean hand drilling's a bitch i've done a lot of it yeah um i i think you should adhere to that hand drilling um like it's there for a reason to ensure that the access limit like the bolts that go in and will this makes me want to install less bolts naturally yeah so that's a but but um stealth bolting with hammer drills we we know what happens hold bolts keep the riffraffed off not sure if that works but well they can't climb if they have to go to the hospital uh speaking of that you'll find out why bobby has a haircut in a in an episode coming out in about a um yeah okay uh there is the irada even though it's not for climbing irada for uh bolting they actually certify for bolting i'm not sure um this is my friend jonathan um is there a log that someone keeps that shows when bolts were put in uh not it's not something that's internationally or even done in the sport um like some people keep personal logs um if you got a permit in joshua tree to install a route yeah there would be a log that would be the record of it um and also with kind of social media climbing um like when the fas are posted on say mountain project um like that kind of serves as a record as well uh sweet i'm going to put the link in the description uh let me know if you guys like live streams it's kind of um it's kind of fun for us kind of fun to just be in conversational mode rather than like youtube voice it's really hard to do conversational youtube uh but yeah let's uh check out the romer hangers i think we're actually going to go test them right now yeah we have some loaded on this load in the slack time machine we left in the machine so we come and do this at 10 o'clock so that'll be in a caving break test video that we got so anyways uh hit the like button but more importantly go to the nps i'll put it one more time here go there fill that out thank you for joining us and giving us your thoughts uh thank you um yeah it was super fun to talk to you all um hopefully we'll do it again sometime we're gonna go break some stuff now cheers