Ben Harris. A Real Magic Conversation.

Welcome to Real Magic Review, my name is Steve Faulkner and this is my interview with the lovely Ben Harris. Before we do this can you please like and subscribe and after this can you check out onlinemagic.co, not show, dot co. This is my, oh get me head in the right place, this is my online magic course, resource, program, whatever you want to call it, there are so many videos now, it's more than just a course, over 800 now, live sessions every month and coins, ropes, sponge balls, loads and loads of card stuff, performance tips, how to practice course, just new uploads every single month, so have a look at that, check it out, that's onlinemagic.co. If you like that you will love this, if you love this you will, if you like, yeah that, no if you like this you'll love that, there you go, flawless and professional. So very briefly this is my interview with Ben Harris, well it's an interview, it's a chat, I want these to be kind of organic chats, so I have a load of questions, I don't usually ask them all and we just chat about life, magic and everything. This is a corker, Ben is someone I've respected and followed for many many years and he's got so much experience, you really owe it to yourself to watch and learn from this. I'll be talking to Ben again, you know we went for an hour, we could have gone for another five hours, so we'll be talking again in January about his very exciting new project and this is not like a product thing, we only talk about it briefly, but we talk about Symmetry Parity and the Chimera deck, which is his latest release from Vanishing, which is absolutely brilliant, I'll be doing, and by the time you watch this I'll probably have done a separate review on that, but that's only a small part of what we talk about, so do yourselves a favour, I've watched a lot and if you share it that'll be lovely as well. So here is my interview with Ben. Ben Harris, we've been in touch kind of on and off for, I don't know, years or something? Years and years and years and years and it's a pleasure to finally patch up like this and I appreciate your support over the years, you've always been very positive, kind, approachable and yeah, you seem like a lovely dude. Well I hope so, I hope it's not this front, you know, as soon as the camera stops I'm a monster. No, I can't imagine that at all. And the fact that you like to dig into things in detail and think things through, not just magically, but I mean your ramblings, I mean, you know, you're touching on life issues and it's important, we need to discuss these things. Yeah, I think so, just for those who don't know, I do, when Ben says ramblings, I do kind of morning, most mornings I do a kind of improvised chat on Facebook about nothing basically and sometimes stuff comes up and sometimes it doesn't, but yeah, it's great fodder over coffee, you know, it's perfect. Yeah, well, I mean, I've been kind of, see, I got into magic quite late, you know, I got into it about 20 and I was kind of not in the, I've never really been in the community really, so because of kids and because of lifestyle and stuff like that and I couldn't manage to get their conventions and you were always someone that I saw your published pieces everywhere and was fascinated with them instantly. A lot of it because the way they were described, a lot of it was, you know, once I got into kind of reading it and the kind of, well, we'll talk about that in a minute, but I want to just know when you started getting publishing, which was early 80s, wasn't it, magic wise? Yep, yep, yep, early 80s, 1982, yeah. Yeah, so what was the scene like, what was it, because that wasn't, I wasn't doing magic then, I wasn't in the world tour, what was it like now, I know we've got internet now, not that, but what was it like compared to now, what was sort of the buzz then? The buzz was your Paul Harris's, your Darrell's, your Michael Ammar's and a very, not rough and ready publishing scene, but I mean, we basically had typewriters and you would type things out, paste them down, photocopy them or go and have plates made and print them. They had a certain look, a certain naivety, the joy of the magic came through and that was the important thing and in fact, one of the favourite things I find is when I'm going through my library, it's the old magazines, they're just full of life and they capture their times, magic magazines of the 70s show you what was happening in the 70s, show you what people were thinking and developing, discussing, loving, hating and that's how things evolved. Yeah, that's what you said that they showed you, that's it, I think that's what I'm sort of getting at, it was a bit of a difficult question, what's the vibe, but that's exactly what I meant, was that there seemed to be one and there seemed to be, with you and Paul Harris especially, there was a kind of, and to an extent Doug Henning, even though Doug was, and again, I wasn't right, even though Doug was on telling and everything, there was a kind of underground feel to him, you know, with the no shoes and stuff, there seemed to be a kind of hangover from the kind of 60s, in a good way, I mean. Yes, yes there was, I mean Paul Harris was hippy trippy, Paul Harris is still hippy trippy, Daryl was so sadly missed, he was hippy trippy, I mean Henning hippy trippy, all lovely people and their joy and their happiness sort of reflected in their magic and that made it contagious, you think of Paul Harris's work, it is contagious, Doug Henning was contagious, the greats are contagious, have got that essence about them, Doug was an inspiration, I used to have a t-shirt that said magic is alive, Doug Henning proved it, I was like 18 at the time, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe a little older, but yeah, yeah, I want that t-shirt, I'm gonna stop searching, it was all done, my mum made it up in glitter, my mum was good, my mum was good, my close-up pad, which I have here, excuse me, boom, this is 12 layers of velvet, it has been around the world with me three or four times, my mum made that in 1976, it hasn't got a mark on it, it's yeah, amazing, it's one of those things, it is, it is, you know, I've got a close-up, yeah, I've got a close-up pad I was sent a couple of years ago and I think they're about 300 quid and it's starting to wear through already, so yeah, I honestly cannot believe this thing doesn't have a mark on it, it's absolutely perfect, a bit, a bit, velvet is better, you know, well, look at this for a segue, a bit, because there is, I love a good segue, dude, well, it's not really a segue, it's kind of, I suppose it's a metaphor, that close-up pad to that thing of that longevity and that's what I kind of, when you said that, I totally thought of this, you know, with you and Paul Harris and Michael and Daryl, even though he isn't with us anymore, his work, yes, yeah, it doesn't go away, Ben, and I don't think that's, you can say that about a lot of creators, but actually I don't think that's true, I think a lot of creators now will go away, I don't mean that in a negative, dark way, but I mean their work won't, I don't think that there's kind of an instant kind of gratification to a lot of the stuff that's published now, which to me, I don't, I don't think things lasting a long time matter anymore, it's just, it's the way we are today, Andy Warhol's, you know, 15 minutes of fame, which actually he didn't say that, but he's often quoted as saying that, it's now 15 seconds of fame, if that, and you have to fight like hell for that, we are expecting something new all of the time, it's trash with flash, but it's working, it's what people seem to want, I don't think it's a good thing, because you cannot continue like this forever, we will all get bored, we will all die from boredom, this is why on occasion I disappear from magic for like five or six years at a time, because I just lose that spark, I get bored and I don't see the spark anywhere else, then I just go away until the spark returns, and that way you can come back with a vigor and an excitement, because if you're not excited about your work, just stay in bed, simple as that, you've got to be enthused. I agree, and I think that there's something you said there, you said you said it's that longevity isn't important anymore, and I would, I know exactly what you're saying, by the way. Well, I think it's got to the stage where it's not seen as being important, but I think it is desperately important, because we lose who we are if we forget who we are, and there's no one trying to remember who we are at the moment magically, and probably with many other disciplines, but I mean magically, I mean, look at all the peak devices just in the last 12 months, what are we doing? We're chasing our tails, that's a sign of boredom. I know that, and that's, it's funny, you totally just answered the question I was just about to say, well it was a comment, when you said it's well, there you go, I'm a psychic too. I know, it's great, there's a feeling of, because that's, you're absolutely right, there is a feeling of it not being important, that longevity, but as you said, that it is important, it will always be important, and I think that the, there's this kind of, you know, every time I speak on the channel about Paul Harris, Ben Harris, Michael Amard, Daryl, that people are interested, you know, and this is contemporary, this is young people as well, they hear the story and they want to go back to it, and I think that it was important that that was happening then, because there was a foundation being laid, and that foundation, I think, sort of being covered, and we've got to start uncovering it again maybe. Yeah, but every now and then you see, you see, you know, the arms of foundation just breaking through those barriers and coming back. I mean, we stand on the shoulders of giants, we always have done, we always will do, which probably means most of the crappy stuff will fall to one side. You see, the internet and social media has got a lot to do with this. Nowadays, it seems that you have to have an effect that just pops over the screen, and that's it, with no thought about, well, how do you get into it in the real world situation, how do you then get out of it, and what does it actually mean, other than just, boom, there it is, look at me. Richard Kaufman described this many, many years ago in an issue of Richard's Almanac when he was discussing, I think, the big drill bit finale to a cups and balls routine. He wasn't impressed, and he said, well, look, basically anyone can get a shock result by pulling down their pants. That's all it takes, man. You know, I mean, it has to have context if it's to have meaning. Does it have to have meaning? That's another question. It probably does if you want it to be remembered, to be effective, to last, to create change, to cement what is already good. Yeah. You could talk around this in millions of ways. That's great, and let's do that for about the next six hours, because I'm interested. Yeah, I'm down. My battery will probably run out, but yeah. Because you said then about the, and this is, my sort of relationship, my sort of opinion of this is changing a bit. So you've got the, like you said, the instantaneous gratification, the kind of internet magic trick that's quick and snappy and doesn't have any depth, and people can watch it on TikTok in 30 seconds. And don't get me wrong, I look at that personally, and I go, I don't like it. Now I think sometimes I do like it, and to me it's like having a dirty burger, right? It's like a, not a good burger, like a dirty burger that's cheap and you're hungry. And I think there's a place, you know what I mean? Sometimes quick and cheap is good. Exactly, but then the problem is, if you're brought up to think that's all that food is, you know, and you don't experience a lovely meal, you know, and that's, I think, the danger of it. When I talk to non-magicians sometimes about magic of a certain age, that's what they think magic is, and that's why they're so surprised when they see a show that is different or has a little bit more depth. Well, it's the McDonald's diet syndrome. I mean, if you eat McDonald's, something different off the menu every day, I mean, you are going to gradually get sick, both mentally and physically. There was a documentary actually made about this, a guy, I can't remember his name, did this. You know, there's more to life than fast food. And I think your analogy is very, very good. Magic, in many ways, is now like a fast food type of thing. But, you know, every now and then something really deep and beautiful and wonderful comes along, and I think people then take stock and then start asking questions about everything else. You know, does it really do the trick? Is it effective? Is it manageable? You know, can I work with it day to day? Yeah. I mean, what is it to be a magician today? Is it just to be able to perform a quickie over TikTok? Or is it to be able to entertain a live group of people in a meaningful and entertaining manner? The line seems to be drawn a little bit. I think there's another level as well, and we are basically going to go into soon. I want to talk about you more and your sort of past, but this is a level that I've thought as well, and I don't know whether age is a part of it, but I also almost see doing a close-up gig. So, you know, one of those ones where you turn up, like a lot of them, you've got to get around 20 tables in limited time, so you can't do any of your plot. You can't do, and I want to talk about plot as well, but you've just got to do your, and it's almost like TikTok magic a bit, you know, and I think for doing that for a few years, you get that lovely gratification, that pleasure of people going, that's amazing, but you get to a point where you go, there's something more in this, and it's a similar thing, right? Yeah, it is a similar thing, but at least when you're performing that TikTok style of magic in a live situation, you do actually have interaction. So, people can possibly, you know, be allowed to say yes or no, or touch this, or something happens in their hand. So, I think you cross a barrier a little bit, you know? Yeah. Your TikTok and your social media seems so judgmental. It's like, is this good? You know, like me, surely magic needs to be more than, you know, just like me. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think it, I think that's happened to me a bit in a live situation as well, because I can't remember who said it the other day on a magic interview. It's going to annoy me, but they said people get into magic for the same reasons and stay in it for different reasons, you know? It's that thing, if you get into it for ego, everybody thinks it's great or whatever, and then it's, and I think also you get to a point where magic can not just be in this close-up magic gig situation, it can be in a show where people are focused and we can give a little bit more depth to it. And I think, going back to your work, what I was reading, I read a lot, went back to a lot of stuff yesterday, is that it all requires... Thank you very much. No, no, no. I mean, it's just fascinating to me. Thank you. Because it requires this kind of leap of faith that you won't always be able to do in that kind of, right, you've got two minutes at this table, you know? But the more time you've got in that scenario, the more magical it is. I'm thinking about the crossroads and things like that, which, you know, you talk about where... Yes, yeah, they're more sort of set pieces in so much as they take time and an investment in your audience investing back in you. Yeah, yeah. I think that's very important. When I perform live, I pretty much just have a set list and then I just wing it, because it's the reactions from the audience. They take you where you need to go to be most effective for that situation. If Stephen King writes about plot, and I take this on board, I've discussed it in various books. As Stephen King says, plot can't be treated with too much respect, because if you have a clear plot, you know the beginning, the middle and the end, and you're just going to work your way from point A to point B to point C. Instead, why not just have an idea and then throw some characters into a scene and see how they work it out. And you come up with great plots and great magic tricks, just like that. Yeah, I want to go back to that and remind me, because I think that's so important and there's a context there for me as well. But before we do, we've jumped into this. Some people are going to watch this and they're like me, Ben. We're old, right? We started in a different generation and then there was a gap. You talked about this resurgence of the foundations and you coming back into magic was such a joy for me, or publishing. I'm not saying you've ever been, because we've been communicating. But just for the people, just tell them what your kind of entrance into the magic world was. What sort of got you known? When Baroness came on the scene, what made people go, is this guy? It was the trick epic flight, which was a marking pen and a couple of keys. You mark a cross on one of the keys and the two keys, one with the cross and the one without the cross, change places. It used a new scientific principle at the time with a whiteboard marker and an oil marker secretly interchanged. That was big. Jeff Busby, of all people, jumped on top of that, sold thousands, as did Hank Lee. That's the one that got me noticed. It was the novelty value. Here we had a transposition that is pretty much self-working. Very proud of it. Lovely trip. And that was what, 1982? 1982. Bang, you nailed it. You've done your research. And were you just creating or were you performing as well then? I was performing full-time at a restaurant, Sombrero's Mexican restaurant. It was the first close-up magic residency in Australia at the time. Three nights a week, I met my wife there. My wife is Malaysian. I met her in a Mexican restaurant in Australia. And yeah, lovely memories. Most definitely. People were lined up around the block. They were the good old days. And that was Brisbane then? Were you in Brisbane then? Brisbane. In Brisbane, yeah. And did that all the way through to 1996. Wow. So that got you onto the scene. And then, was it Cosmosis after that? Yeah, most definitely Cosmosis. That was the biggie for a variety of reasons. One, it is a cool, I think, and still think, solution to a problem of a close-up levitation where you don't have to worry about the hassle of dealing with threads. The hassle has already been taken care of for you. No anchors to worry about. It's a trick that you... So tell people... Sorry to interrupt, Ben, but I just want you to tell... Because everybody watching this is going to be thinking, what's Cosmosis? But they all know what it is, but they don't know they know what it is. So tell them what it is. Okay, well, Cosmosis, it's the floating match on cards. Sorry, there you go. Old age, early onset dementia. The floating card, the floating match above the card. So it basically uses an array of threads. It's become a toy, the most ripped off trick in close-up magic, quite possibly. I think you'll find everybody will tell you that. And also, a nice thing about it was being a levitation with the thread, it solved the wobble problem. Because levitating with threads, you've always got to wobble. I mean, these things look like tops spinning around. Well, Cosmosis solved that, and it was self-working. And man, boom. It was a limited release of 1,000 pieces in conjunction with my first world lecture tour. It sold out, and within a month, it was ripped off by a company in Austria to begin with. No names. And boom, it's been ripped off ever since. And that's the thing. So just so people know, that trick that most people look at as the one that you buy for three quid in all magic shops. Yep, that's the one. That originally sold for $50 as an exclusive. The people that paid $50 for it had it as an exclusive for a couple of months. And then boom, out of my control. I didn't rip myself off. And away we go. There are some interesting stories there. I mean, a big Indian company was making tens of thousands of these a month. And Murphy's was selling tens of thousands of the ripoffs a month. Mark Murphy rang me up and said, Ben, I feel guilty. This is your trick. I'm selling these ripoffs, but I'm not going to stop selling them because I'm making a fortune. But can I cut you in? I mean, boom. And to this day, every month, I get a royalty check from Murphy's for ripoff versions of Cosmos, which is a beautiful thing. I mean, every month to this day. And we're 50 or 45 years late. Yeah, yeah. There are some really good people in magic. You've got to look for them sometimes, but they're there. Yeah, we do. And there are. And I think that the interesting thing about that trick for me is that, well, there's a couple of stories that when I first ever learned any magic, I was in Australia. And I went over to Australia. Yeah, yeah. So I went over to Australia in when I was must have been 19. So 73, 83. Yeah. So weirdly enough, yeah, around about 82, it would have been so yeah, it wouldn't have been no 90, 91, 92, sorry, 92, 91, 92. Yeah. And I was in Sydney and I was a juggler as a hobby. And I met this guy that had a shop in Sydney called Juggling Magic and More. Right. And they're all juggling outside. It's juggling the magic shop. Right. And I kind of met them because I was a juggler and I sort of hung out. And and he said to me, guy called Dave, I'd love to get in touch with him again. He said, I'm going off to Taipei. I've got a gig. Do you want to run the shop for a couple of weeks? And I sat in the shop and just played magic tricks. I've never. And the magic tricks. Fun, fun, fun. Oh, man. And it was obviously thumbtip stuff and all that. And that kept me out in Australia for a few months. But the the big one was the the floating match. And he took me to a gig. He had a close up magic gig. And I couldn't even do it. I'd only learned a French drop or whatever. And at this close up magic gig, he was doing like normal stuff. And this other guy was booked as a magician. And he was walking around just doing the floating match. Right. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Blowing people away. And the crap floating mat, you know, the crappy kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And they hold it the wrong way. It's just it's just ridiculous. I mean, yeah, the original instructions were like 24 pages of detail, detail. You know, you buy it today for three bucks or whatever. And I mean, I encounter it at farmers markets where people have set up stalls and they're selling novelties and look, magic floating match. But all these things come with a single sheet. You can't discuss all of the details in making this a powerful magic trick in a single sheet. And that's what it is. It originally was a very powerful trick. You can actually perform it by having a card selected and then a spectator signing the back of the playing card and the match levitates off the back of their signature. They take the match and the signed card home with them. That's how it was. Have I got a message appearing on my screen now? No, you haven't. No. OK. It just appeared online. OK. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's how I was performing it while I was lecturing in 1986. I performed it to Max Maven, to dozens of performers. Max came over and said, you've got this floating match. You know, show me. That's how I met Max Maven in 1986. I can't remember what convention it was, but yeah, wonderful. And so sad to lose Max. I mean, yeah, incredibly. And actually, you mentioned Max Maven yesterday. I was reading it yesterday, right? I read the whole thing yesterday, Cosmosis. And I totally was thinking about Max Maven for different other reasons than I have been recently. And it's exactly as happens with Cosmosis, a floating match. If nobody had seen that trick, right, and nobody had seen you damn it or anybody damn it, and it wasn't a thing and it wasn't three quid and we didn't know how good it was, you would read that and go, is that going to work? You know, it makes the promises of looking amazing. We all know it does now because that's why it's such a big seller. That's why it was ripped off, because it's pretty much self-working and it looks... I always remember the first time I saw it, even on the crappy version. I was like, that's incredible. So... Thank you. But when you read it... I remember the first time I performed it for myself. It was like, wow, that's nice. It just looks nuts. But we take it for granted now, right? It looks good, doesn't it? And your work, I think, has that. And Max's work as well. I remember reading the Prism book, you know, the compilation of the colours. And at the beginning, it says method, and you go, that sounds amazing. And then you look at the effect. And then you look at the method and go, oh, it's not going to really work. And I find that a lot with really strong mentalism. And that's exactly what your work is like. And if nobody had seen that match trick, then I think people read it and go, oh, no, I can't really be bothered to. That's not going to... But because we see it, we know how good it is. And I also think that runs through all of Bands of Gold, of Zoom, all those things that, unfortunately, we haven't got that evidence in front of us where we see it all the time. But it does deliver on impact. But there's a kind of mismatch between method and effect. The effect almost is too simple. And you go, oh, that's not going to work. Do you know what I mean? Yes, I do. I think you have to sort of work for it a little bit. And I think that's good. I think it's very important to work things through, to be put in a position where maybe you're forced to think about something. Well, actually, this or actually that. I mean, whoa, I could go either way. You make the decision yourself rather than have it all just laid out for you, which is one of the reasons I much prefer to write books or to read books, because I think you have to do a little bit of work. And that's just so important. Another important thing about books is that you can come across a book on somebody in somebody else's library, a book that you will stumble across, and it may change your life. It's happened to me when I picked up Carl Sagan's Cosmos as a youngster off somebody's bookshelf. It changed my life. And I mean, it changed my life, my entire attitude to everything. If that was only a digital book, it wouldn't have changed my life because I wouldn't have stumbled across it, because the only way you stumble across an e-book is if you're a hacker and you're in somebody else's computer. You can't just stumble across an e-book and change your life. It just doesn't happen. Books are so important. Books make you think if you have everything on a video, I mean, videos are fine and they're great as an additional teaching tool. But if you just have the video, then you are just more than likely going to copy every step of the way without thinking. That's not good. That's the road to TikTok. Yeah, I think so. And I think video to me is a great sort of slightly going off topic, I suppose. But the great... I mean, what people are doing now is quite nice. When you're trying to learn a move and you can't visualize it, it's sometimes quite nice to see almost like a sterile version of that move, you know, with no performance. I agree 100%. I mean, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I just think it's as a general... I mean, we're talking about specialty learning here. I want to learn Move X by Dr. Z, you know, that's boom, that's focus. But often there's just this blind following, you know, what's laid out in front of you. You see it right across the magic industry. But it's probably always been that way. All that's changed is the media. Yeah, I think so. And it's the desire, I think, as well to, you know, it depends where you are in your learning. You know, I kind of agree with the sort of Darren Brown thing of when you first start out, yeah, copy away, just get comfortable with the stuff, you know. But then don't forget there's a... Get in the groove. Yeah, and there's a lovely creativity. And magic also gives us that lovely safety net of, you know, we've got that joy of having a trick to fall back on. So we can play with that. And if it doesn't quite hit, then we just fall back and it's a trick and they go, how the hell was that done? That was amazing anyway. So we've got that lovely freedom to be creative with magic, which I think so many of us don't use. And I've been guilty of it. You know, try a premise that might not work. And of course, who is the greatest proponent of that? And that's Uri Geller. I mean, you know, he will make a miracle out of anything. And if it fails, you still come away totally amazed, which is pure showmanship. And we have a lot to learn from that. Really. I mean, seriously. I know. And we'll talk about Geller maybe briefly at the end of this. But what I do, because there is an exciting thing occurring in the very near future with you. But before we do, which I was super excited about, I hope you remember to go back to it at the end. We'll I'll try to remind you. Yeah, we'll both forget, mate. We're both we're both not 20 anymore. We're both that old. I want. So this what really interests me and what I'm starting to get excited about was what I didn't get excited about when I first got into magic, which is this thing of reading an effect and going, that is nuts. That surely isn't possible. And then reading the method and going, oh, is that it? But then understanding, yeah, that is it. And that doesn't weaken the effect at all. I think it's so easy, you know, when we see a miracle and go, you know, if you read the effect, somewhat the effect of a center tear, right, which is someone doing that really, really well, you know, and the effect is someone writes down a bit of paper, they want a bit of paper. That's all that happens, gets torn up. And then you you do this beautiful reading around it, you know, and you and you completely floor them and tell them who exactly who they're thinking of, sometimes what age the person is, they're thinking of the relationship, all that stuff. And if you then go, I tell the paper and have a look at it. It's so easy to go, oh, that's no good. But actually, the opposite is true. And when with your new book, that is exactly, I think, the beauty and the danger of people taking it because you read and I'm talking about Symmetry Parity in the Chimera deck. Which is, yeah, yeah. And this isn't, you know, no, with the decks of cards in it. Now, I don't know. I'm going to talk around this, Ben. I don't know how much, you know, but this is taking when you this has got. I will answer all of your questions totally openly. There's nothing to hide, man. I mean, this is just an honest expression of love of a deck of cards. Yeah. And it's a certain deck of cards. And then you've kind of gone through this creative process. And I don't know how much you want to mention what deck of cards is. Sometimes I think it's quite nice not to, you know, but it's it's it's up to you. Well, yeah, well, we talk about it. I mean, this is a totally fresh look at the classic Svengali deck. 26 short cards, which are force cards, typically 26 regular cards. But basically, apart from a few rather interesting effects with a regular Svengali deck, I then throw those 26 force cards away and start again. And that's when it really gets exciting. Yeah, it's there's some fun stuff in there. And is it is it really is it's excited me more, way more than I thought it is. It really is. I mean, I'm trying to I don't care who came up with this stuff. It's really exciting and fun to play with. And hopefully I've written in such a way that you get so excited you want to run away and explore new options yourself, because that you can you you just need to configure the cards differently and you can go in totally different directions. Yeah. And I think also that so what you do here as well, I'm going to do a review of the book as well. But you thank you talking detail about what the experience of the trick is first. OK, so you've got the whole chapter is you're just this is what the audience is and you what is happening and you read those effects and three effects or whatever at the beginning, you know, one with regular deck and then you've got parody and you're going this is that's just the perfect magic trick pretty much. Right. Yes, yes, yes. And then you and then but as I mean, I kind of was reading it and made myself almost forget the method and then kind of just no, just read it. And then you look at the method. And but there are a couple of things that take it away for even with the routine you've got using the regular strength, it takes it away from that. And you've got the shuffle and, you know, this kind of resurrection shuffle where. But when I'm reading it, I'm going, if it is that, how is that happening? How are they shuffling? How are they? And of course, you really go, of course. But as a magician, I'm reading that and thinking, how is that? So as a layperson, they've just got nowhere to go with in the fact it's being created on stage as well. Yeah. Yeah. I would love somebody to perform one of these tricks for Penn and Teller. I think it would be interesting, you know. Yeah. So I mean, you take the parody deck, for instance, which is the first step away in this work from the regular Svengali deck. We basically apply Svengali to a regular deck of cards. So there are no force cards. I mean, boom, that's just totally out there. What we can do with that, as you know, from reading the book, it's just mind boggling. Yeah. And I think the laypeople do not have a chance. And this stuff flies past most magicians so long as you don't sort of begin handling the cards like you would typically handle the Svengali deck, because there are typical grips that just shout Svengali deck. But you can get away from those and the book takes you away from those in many ways as well. Yeah, it does. And when we go on to the Tardian, the case of the Tardian, is that you say Tardian? The Tardian case or case of the Tardian. Yeah, that's what I think. Somebody does it one way, somebody does it the other way. It's just the Tardian thingy. It's wonderful. I mean, it's taken it to this kind of really visual, there's colours everywhere, there's decks everywhere. But also being really, it almost reminded me at the end of a Cups and Balls routine, you know, the end of a Cups and Balls routine, you've got like four oranges and the melon and everything's on the table and it's a beautiful display. You've got that thing at the end where you've got, and I think it's, you know, but it takes, going back to what we were saying earlier about the foundations, you know, I've made a big decision recently to, well, to stop doing as many reviews and go back, I need to go back, you know, to uncover those foundations again, Ben. And I think part of the decision was sort of motivated by, again, sitting there over the last couple of days, reading your stuff and going, I'm missing too much here by running forward too far, too quickly. And I think we're all in that. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's profound that my work has affected you in that way and I'm honoured. But yeah, look, detail is where it's all at. You know, lots of detail makes something really, really beautiful, but the detail must be effortless and hidden. A great singer, they hit all those notes so effortlessly. A great guitarist, David Gilmour, Carlos Santana. It's effortless. You never see a great artist struggle. The art is the concealment of the art. That's not mine. I can't remember who said it, but it's a goodie. Yeah, it is. And I think that the flow of it, I mean, that's the heartbreaking thing sometimes about magic, isn't it, is no one can see. And it goes the other way, is it could be a really simple thing. And they're thinking it's complex, like you said, the amount of peak devices and all that kind of stuff. Well, the thing is, I'm not trying to bring you back to Uri Geller for any particular reason, but Uri is that example. It's all the great mentalists. David Berglis told me the same thing. Peter Turner told me the same thing. And, you know, great mentalists in the past will tell you the same thing. It's the effect. Think Malini. It's the effect. The method shouldn't matter. The method should be comfortable if we want to live with it day to day. But I mean, at the end of the day, it's not about the method. It's about the effect. And look at Uri Geller. He took over the world, bending a spoon. I mean, how is that possible? Yeah, it's the effect. Presentation. Absolutely. In the eyes of the I mean, I would have one sort of caveat to that is that in the eyes of the for the performance and the experience of the audience, it's the effect. I think for you as a performer, for again, longevity, it has to be a method that you enjoy using. For sure. Otherwise, it will fall by the wayside. We're going right back to the beginning of this discussion. You have to have that joy, that thrill, that, you know, boom, you're 100% full on with it. That's your attitude and your performance material. That's everything, because if it's not everything, people will see it. They'll pick it up. Yeah, yeah. It has to kind of fit. It has to kind of match you. And I think that, again, people and it's understandable at the beginning, but people don't realize that there's so much available now. And it's so intoxicating. Like you said, a peak device allows you to create a miracle. But does it fit with what you are and what you want to do? And do you enjoy doing that again and again and again? And I think that's the and you might, but it's well, that's true, because because at the end of the day, the peak device should be forgotten. It should never be remembered. It shouldn't form part of anybody's memory of the experience. You read their mind. You didn't have them write on a card, put it in a wallet, turn the wallet over, flip it around and put it in the back pocket or whatever. You just read their mind. What wallet? Well, I didn't write anything down, did I? I mean, that's the difference between a good performer and somebody that's learning. The method must be forgotten. It should never be visible either optically or mentally. And mentally is a big thing. I mean, it should never be suspected because it doesn't matter what is suspected. It doesn't matter if it's the correct solution or not the correct solution. If something is suspected, it may as well be the correct. And the end result is the same. Boom. Yeah. And I've been thinking about this a lot, again, getting sent a lot of stuff to review. Some of the stuff I get sent is, you know, when you get it, the item itself is so impressive. It's so it allows you to as a magician, you look at that and go, that is as clean as it gets, because obviously they don't know you've got somebody, you've got a device, you know, they could be writing something on a bit of paper. You can see in real time that they're writing. It doesn't get cleaner than that. Or maybe they don't have to. So, but so why aren't I, why when I do my shows, am I still doing fourth dimensional telepathy with envelope? Why aren't I doing that? And I think it's because there's a ceiling to an effect, but also they're not seeing the method anyway. So they're not seeing the clean way might not be as entertaining because you haven't got three people on stage having a laugh with them and writing things that do you know what I mean? There's more to it. Well, that's exactly the case. I mean, you're right. You have greater involvement when you have pens and paper and that sort of interaction. But people are becoming wary of technology. Recently on my social media feeds, there have been advertisements for a pen with a camera in it. It's just like a rather fancy sharpie, but it records what you write and sends that in real time to your phone. And this has been sold to the general public. This is a tool, an office tool for the future. Well, okay, we're going to have to start rethinking things, aren't we? I don't like tricks with cell phones. I don't like them at all because some of them are absolutely mind bogglingly brilliant, but the cell phone and what it does is so magical in of itself that a card trick over a cell phone sort of pales in comparison. I mean, the cell phone's already more magical. It can take me on an excursion through the museums. I can visit Marie Geller's museum live on the cell phone. I can visit the pyramids live on the cell phone, an art gallery in Italy. Wow. Google Earth. Wow. We can talk live from continent to continent. Wow. I mean, we need we need to steer clear of technology if we can, because technology will and is becoming the equivalent of, well, it must have gone up your sleeve. Yeah. And that's where it will go eventually. Yeah. And I agree. I think the only I mean, obviously, there's a lot of apps that use the phone when the phone doesn't come in. So they don't know it's in that they don't even know the phone's involved, which is great. And of course, you know, I love Jonathan. Jonathan Levitt's The Stranger is brilliant because it's using your phone as a phone, you know, so you're phoning a stranger. So that's again, it's it's a lovely I mean, I've ended a show with and it's lovely because the phone's completely in context of how else are you going to phone someone? You've got to do it on a phone, right? It's not like used for a thing. Yeah, well, in context like that, I mean, that's the equivalent of doing a magic trick in a spectator's hand. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? They're making the call their phone. You know what I'm saying? It's context. It's a kind of embracing of the technology. I think for what from the early apps, there was like it was and now it's becoming because like you said, people aren't buying it anymore. They're going to go with an app even if they don't know it's done. So yes. Yeah. So going back to, you know, from that to, you know, back to the kind of nuts and bolts of your work, which is looking at premise, looking at plot and just very briefly on plot. I love, you know, you and I love Stephen King's on writing is which you you talk about in the book. Oh, beautiful. I read that book every year. It's just to refresh my brain. You know, I totally recommend it for creating. It's so inspiring to me, not just for writing, but also interestingly for you mentioned plot earlier. And in magic, I think that there is when I read a lot of theory books, it was all like, you know, you've got it's all about mapping out and keeping to a thing. And also writing books say this a lot. They say you've got to exactly what you're writing. You've got drafting, you've got to block it out. And then Stephen King came along and went, well, I don't do that. I kind of have a vague idea where the story's going. And I let it develop. And I think for some people, many people, clearly me and you, we need that. We need to have that freedom to. Yes, we might have a kind of idea, but not be too scared of going off the track and opening up that creativity. That's that's just it. It does take a leap of faith because you don't know whether your investment of time is going to result in anything, but you have to be confident that it will. And again, back to Stephen King, he said in that book as well, your story will come out somewhere. It will come out. Just write it. Don't be concerned how it will finish. It will find a way it will come out of its own accord. Now, that's that's basically what I apply to to creating magic nowadays. It wasn't always that way. It takes a long time. I think what took a long time for me to be confident enough to do that. But you look at the book machinations, Robert Neal's trapdoor card. There were a whole lot of things that both he and Martin got. Boom! I got a copy, too. There you go. Boom! Yeah, love it. There are things that he and Martin, Robert E. Neal and Martin Gardner did not see because they took it in a direction they wanted to take it in and they took it as far as they could. There was no need to take it any further. It was perfect. But by accepting that, they set up blinders and they couldn't see what was to the left and what was to the right. And if you read the book, there are other things hidden within those folds that can be brought to the fore and used to enhance those original ideas. And that's to me, that's the fun. That's the fun. And that book started out with a blank piece of paper. I cut the door in it and decided, well, OK, this is blank on both sides. Is there any effect in that? It turns out there was. And then it just sort of developed from there. But you have to just let it roll. Same with symmetry and parity with the Svengali deck. I mean, it started off just looking for a way of solving the any card at any number with a Svengali deck, which is the perfect tool because the chosen card can appear at any number. The card before and after the chosen number are different. Perfect. The only problem is if you want to allow a free choice of card, you're going to have to carry 52 Svengali decks. And that's a big bulge in the pocket. So that's where it started. And then it was like, OK, I've finished, I'm done. And then I thought, well, do we need force cards? Why do we have 26 force cards? Let's throw some of those out. Let's throw them all out. And then we came up with all the other stuff. Yeah. But you have to just be open to it. I think I think that's it, Ben. And I think that's why it's why people like you are so important, because you because, you know, you delve into that for us, really, because a lot of it, you know, that, you know, sometimes I think I learn a thing and I review it and I think, oh, let's spend more time with that. There's another thing to review. And I think that's the kind of same with people learning tricks as well. They go, I'd love to spend more on that, but I just bought that thing. So I better go over to that. And I just bought that thing. And I think you remind us when you do two things, Ben, and you and others, creatives like you, is that you remind us how important it is to stick with a thing. As you mentioned, Uri, you know, stick with if you if you feel it and it won't go away and you keep going, I want to go back to that thing. Then if that voice doesn't stop, go back to it. You remind us of that. And then when people like me haven't got time, you kind of do it for me. And I go, great. Someone else is just taking it back to the first car trick I ever learned. The car trick that took that kept me in Australia for another six months because I ran out of money, you know, with a Bengali deck. I was going into clubs and doing it for drunk people. And it was the first magic trick I ever bought as well. Yeah. Yeah. And you've took me back to that to a point where I've spent hours with it again, which is great. So, Ben, you know, we're nearly at we're nearly an hour. I want to carry on this conversation, but just briefly, I just want to tell people, yes, I'm going to review it. Symmetry Parity and the Chimera deck. Stunning. Thank you. You've got very, very quickly. You've got something very exciting in in January. I don't want to talk too much about it. We'll do a whole new thing on it. Actually, that will be the time we'll do another conversation. But just tell us what's happening soon, because I'm very excited about it. That would be brilliant. Well, we've been talking about Uri Geller and January sees the release of a whole new book, Bend It Like Geller. Uri's a big football fan and Bend It Like Beckham and Bend It Like Geller seemed to work for him. He signed off on it, which I thought was absolutely wonderful. This book examines the entire 50 year history of the genre, brings all the methods together, dozens and dozens and dozens of previously unpublished photographs, the entire story. It will become the reference, I hope. And we find out whether Uri's fessing up or not. You've got to find the book. You've got to buy the book. Now, all the details, Vanish magazine, January, they're doing a whole cover story on it. And I'm so excited. This is a beautiful book. Vanishing Inc. published it, or are publishing it. Steve Shafton, my editor, beautiful job. Eva from Mexico, Eva Elizalde is illustrating 100 illustrations. It's just going to be a beautiful book. And I've got some great stories to tell you about it. I mean, it was censored in China. It was pulled off the press. We'll have to go into it at another time. But the stories about bringing this book to market are just incredible. I can't wait. I can't wait, mate, because it's right up my street. Yeah, yeah, I'll do it. Yeah, I will. He sent me one, I didn't know how to show it because I know this is the first time it's really been talked about. Yeah, so that's the exclusive, I think. It is, yeah. Yeah, the new book in January. Thank you. I cannot wait because I'm doing loads of metal bending stuff at the moment. So it's so exciting for me, Ben, that you're doing this, as is all your stuff. And I really urge people to check Ben's stuff out. Go back to the, as I said, crossroads and silent running and things like that. And just read Luke's intro to silent running to know this stuff works. And you just find the creativity and the inspiration. Great. Ben, thank you so much. Don't go anywhere. I'll pretend we're going now. I'll say goodbye, but I want to talk to you afterwards. Check out Ben's stuff. Links will be below. Thank you, Steve. Yeah, you're welcome, mate. And thanks so much for joining me. My pleasure. Cheers, mate. So thanks so much to Ben for that. I just loved it. I'm in a better mood today now I've done that. Do check out all his stuff. Go to wowbound.com, wowbound.com, and you can find all of his publications there. And of course, his two recent books, Three Vanishing Ink and one coming up in January. Do share this. If you know anybody that you think would like this, any other magicians, let them know about it. That'd be great. It's a chunk of time to ask someone to spend with me. So let's make sure a lot of people watch it. And of course, it helps me as well. Talking of which, go and check out onlinemagic.co after you've gone to wowbound.com, onlinemagic.co and ask any questions. Do comment below and I'll follow up those comments in the live shows on Thursdays, five o'clock UK time when I'm not gigging. All right, have a great one. Like and subscribe. Thanks, Ben. See you later.