Chasing History: A Forgotten Native American Story - Pinson Mounds State Archaeological Park

Hey everybody, my name is Chase Pipes and you are watching like the coolest Chasing History episode series that we've got coming up. You have no idea how psyched I am. This is a joint venture with Chasing History and Jason Pentrell of Seven Ages Audio Journal. We are traveling all across the United States checking out prehistoric Native American sites and interviewing site managers and rangers that are here. And we are with Miss Deidre Irwin. Deidre, thank you so much for having us out. You are a park ranger here. We are at Pinson Mound State Park. Tell us about this site. So this is a prehistoric site of the woodland area of Native Americans about 2,000 years ago. We have several mounds on the site with our largest one actually being behind us, Saul's Mound. It's 72 feet tall and it is the middle woodland period mound that we have here in existence today. So we're in West Tennessee just south of Jackson and this site is a middle woodland period site. So how many thousands of years ago is that? So that's about 2,000 to 2,100 years ago. So 2,000 to 2,100 years ago. And these are kind of the first real group that massively made mounds throughout the eastern U.S., right? Yeah. So they kind of almost predate the Hopewellian culture. And then some of our mounds were actually built during that Hopewellian culture as well. Cool. So you're going to take us around and show us the site. Oh, definitely. Awesome. And then Jason, you're doing a series of episodes for your podcast, Seven Ages Audio Journals, on our trip and what we're doing. Yeah, that's right. So we're going to do a four-part series. All the trips that we're going to hit, we're starting here today at Pinson Mounds. Next, we'll go to Spiro, followed by Poverty Point. And we're going to wrap it up later in the week at Moundville. We're going to have a very special group of brand new episodes about mound building cultures here in the southeast and throughout the Midwest. And so we're really looking forward to it. Our first joint venture with Chasing History, and we're really excited to be here. So far, it's been a great day. Deidre's been a wonderful host for us here at Pinson Mounds, and we're really excited about the trip. This is awesome. We cannot thank you enough for letting us tag along on this trip, letting all those guys out there tag along on this trip. Deidre, thank you so much for giving us a tour. I'm so excited to get started. So let's do it. You guys want to see some awesome prehistoric Native American history? Yes, let's do it. Let's go. So we are in Tennessee. We are actually on the western side of the state. We are actually right in here, just south of our Jackson, Tennessee. Memphis is down here. Nashville is up here. Our closest town is that Jackson. We were in Pinson, and if you actually look, we are just beside the Fork of Deer River, and it's the South Fork. And if you follow that up, it actually leads all the way to the Mississippi River here. So that would have been one of their highways to get to this site. They didn't have paved areas like we do today to drive around. They had canoes and such to get down. This area is also one of the furthest in settlements of the area because it kind of flows on that. It's up off of the floodplain. So this is our Native American timeline throughout Tennessee prehistory, and if you keep going down this way, you actually set into a lot of the historical time frame when the Europeans got here and actually interacted with the Native Americans down here. And then we are actually in this section right here, which is the woodland period that starts at 1200 BC. So here we actually are a middle woodland site. We have tons of artifacts that have been found here. There's not a whole lot of variety in those because this place was highly looted back in the early 80s and 70s, so we don't have a whole lot that's left for us to find on the mound. But there's still a whole bunch of cool stuff that we find here, such as points that were used in atlatls and also spear points. We have corgettes that were found that were used as a decorative instrument, and we also have the clay cooking balls and other bone tools that we found here. A lot of the majority of stuff that was not tools that were found here was pottery shards. That helps us kind of detail in their lives and also kind of date that back to the area of when these people were here because it relates to other groups that were around here at the same time. We also find other trade goods that were here that were not from here, such as copper from Canada and also even obsidian from the Rocky Mountains. They had to cross the Rocky Mountains and the Mississippi River to even get here, so that's one of the cool things that these people get to see. All right, so we're on top of Saul's Mound, which is this is the highest woodland mound earthen mound in existence, correct? That's mind-blowing. It's crazy. What's the stats for for this site? So this mound right here is 72 feet tall, and it's got a kind of a weird because it's kind of oval shape at the bottom with the erosion and stuff that's happened over time. So it's almost a 300 foot wide by 200 foot circumference on the bottom, so it's a very, very large footprint. Also, if you were to put all this dirt into dump trucks, if you had dump trucks back-to-back bumper-to-bumper, it would be 27 miles of dump trucks. That much dirt is here? There's 8.2 million cubic feet of dirt in this mound. That's insane. So the shape of the mound is really interesting also because you have a platform up top, and then you've got kind of a round conical base at the bottom. So what's going on with that? If you think about the mound builders, we usually talk about the woodland era and the Mississippian era. Mississippians have those tall platform square mounds, and then the woodland culture has round conical mounds. Right. This one's weird because it has both. We have a round base at the bottom, and then at the top it's flat, and it's square-ish, and all the points point in a cardinal direction or southeasterwest. That's fascinating. And that's just so cool that this kind of is, you know, a mix of those two, you know, the square mounds that you see later in the Mississippian period, and then your round mounds that you see, you know, with your woodland group. And so you just kind of wonder if there was any influences or anything like that, that went from one group to another, or things get passed down. I mean, there's so many different things that it could be. That's what's so fascinating about this site is, is that there's so much that is still yet to learn. And how much of this site is excavated and understood? Gosh, a very small percentage. Maybe one percent? I'd say about twenty percent. Twenty percent. Most of the stuff that has been done here was mound specific. A lot of the open grounds still need that research. Wow. Okay, so all of the mounds that we're going to see, was this all from one time period, or is this scattered a bunch, a couple of other time periods? So the ones that we're going to see today, one of the satellite places we're going to go to, that was still an early woodland site, but we do have some archaic evidence. Okay, so some earlier stuff. Here at this central location, it's strictly middle woodland until we get over to the western section, which we have started to discover a little bit of Mississippian, but there still needs to be a lot more data for us to really confirm that. Okay, now we're going to get a lot of dates, or a lot of words thrown out, but I just want to kind of put that into perspective. So date wise, what are we talking about? Let's use thousands of years ago. So the archaic stuff that we're going to see, or the late archaic early woodland stuff that we're going to see, how many thousands of years ago is that? So they can be three to eight thousand years ago, depending on the dates and stuff. Archaic is a huge period of time. Middle woodland, which is what we're standing on here, is about 2,000 to 2,100 years ago. So 2,000 to 2,100 years ago, so right at the birth of the Roman Empire, to give it to perspective, you know, that's when these mega mound structures were being constructed. And then the Mississippian stuff? That's going to be about 15 to 1,000 years ago, 1,500 to 1,000 years ago, so closer to us, but still it's a big gap between now and then. Right, yeah, and do you know if there was any occupation on this site, or was this just a, you know, something that people came to to visit and worship? What's the... So we do have evidence at the Johnston site that we'll be seeing in a few minutes that there were a little bit of habitation. We're not sure if it was seasonally or year-round. Here at this site, we don't have any true evidence of occupation here at this site. Seems like it was just a destination they go to for their rituals. Okay, so just, you know, hey, this is a huge complex, and you get people from all over coming. In the museum, you've got some real fascinating displays of kind of markers that show you how far people have traveled through the materials that you've found here. What are some of the materials that have been found here? Yeah, so we've got copper from Canada. We've got obsidian from the Rocky Mountains. We have some ocean dwelling shells that we have from the Gulf Coast. So there's all kinds of stuff that's traveled all over the country to get to this place. Wow, that is so cool. Ah, this, this is without a doubt one of the coolest sites I've ever been to. We've got a lot more to explore, and I know you're excited to go see it. I am too. Hopefully when we get down there, the wind won't be going, and it'll be a little bit calmer, and hopefully you'll be able to hear us a little bit better. So ready to explore? Oh yes. All right, let's go. Okay, so this is a really fascinating feature because you've got this giant hole back here, and then you've got this big mound of dirt right there, but the size of the hole doesn't match the amount of dirt that's on here. So what, what is this feature behind us? So this is something that we call the borrow pit, or the burrow pit. It's where they got some of the dirt for Saul's Mound, and maybe even some of the other mounds. So it's where the, the natives borrowed the dirt to make the mound. Yeah, so essentially they would have had their baskets come over here, filled them up, and then somehow transported them to Saul's, and then started to build the complex. Okay, because that's always been, you know, a lot of people's question is, is where does the dirt come from? You know, you're looking at a level area. Well, in a place like this, you can actually see part of the dip where the, where the dirt was taken from, but that's not enough, that's not a big enough hole to make that. So what's the, what's the theory, or the thought, or the idea? So one of the ideas is this only accounts for about a third of the Saul's, and it's 72 feet tall. That's a lot of dirt missing. Yeah. So one of the theories is that they actually went down to the swamp, where we have a lot of runoff piles, and they gathered some of those. Maybe they even had borrow pits that were closer to the river, where the soil is a lot easier to dig, and got some of that, and now it's been eroded, and we can't see those pits anymore. I gotcha. Other theories, and some of the evidence suggests that a lot of the dirt was also brought into the site. So what evidence is out there that shows where dirt has been brought in from other places, even other states? So just like some of the rocks, and say copper from Canada, that we can see, we know exactly where that copper came from, we can also do that with some types of dirt. Some is only specific to one general region, so that's how we can see where they actually came from. Right, and you've got dirt from, what's the furthest away that that dirt's come from? So right now, what we're guessing is that it was South Georgia. You're kidding! That's so cool! That's nuts! So you've got dirt from South Georgia that had been carried all the way up here, and placed there. And that's testable. Yes, that is testable. That is so cool. This is a cool site. This is a cool site. All right, we got a lot more to check out. Let's go. Okay, so we've got a progression in this that shows basically the history of mounds throughout the ages. What do we have going on here? So we'll start at the bottom because that's going to be our oldest section with the Adenas. So what date is that? So about 1,000 to 200 BC. Okay, so 3,000 to 2,000 years ago. Yeah. Okay. So this one, they were very simplistic mounds. They were kind of just very low, very smooth mounds that covered usually tombs or ceremonial spots. Okay, so the first mounds that were created by Native Americans, or at least the first massive use of mounds, I guess we should say, were very slow, low-sloping mounds. Okay. And the next one, we go up in there about the time that this site would have been very active, 2,000 to 1,500 years ago, is we jump to the woodland era, which a lot of people talk about the Hopewell. So up north, we have a lot of influence in the Ohio region of the Hopewell. And as you can see on this map, they had a lot of the United States covered at that time. Their platforms or their mounds were more taller, but they were still that smooth cylindrical type of kind of mound complex. But it was still very basic. There wasn't a whole lot of geometric orientation with it. And that's pretty much all of that mound. But once we skip into the Mississippians, which were a lot younger and closer to where we are today, about 1,000 years ago, they have very large structures, hundreds of feet tall. They're very smooth-shaped, very straight lines, very geometrical patterns. But the weird thing is, we are not, of course, a Mississippian site, but we have those structures that are supposed to be Mississippian here at Pinson Mounds. And seeing that, I think, is one of the most fascinating things about this site is, is it's almost like you've got, you know, the birth of a new technology here almost, or at least that idea of being born here almost. You know, this idea of this temple mound is here, but it's, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years before it should have even, before anybody else was doing it. Yeah. And to me, that's fascinating. Yeah, it's super cool. And the weird thing is, it's kind of a mismatch of both of those put together. So we have a conical round bottom with a square top and it's flat. That's crazy. The points point in the cardinal directions, of course, north, south, east, and west. So it's just like those Mississippian structures with the cardinal directions and the flat top, but it's still got that round conical shape of the woodland era. Yeah. So it's a cool mix. That is a really cool mix. And it just, I guess it adds the credence of the importance of this site as not only a place to travel to and for worship and trade, but also to influence the, the, the greater native world in, you know, in their own time period and in time periods to come. Right. That's so cool. Yeah. And one of our flat top mounds still has its ramp. Really? So the ramp hasn't been eroded or anything like that. Oh, that's so cool. That's so cool. One of the most striking features here at the site is behind us, the twin mounds. So there's a lot of very unique archaeology, incredible discoveries that were here at the twin mounds. What's the basic history? What do we know about it so far? So this mound is a double conical mound, kind of two mounds put together. We actually found six tombs in it, four of which were open. There were several different artifacts that came out of those tombs. And even our special knee rattles that we talk about a whole lot naturally have is a lot of iconography here at the mounds actually came out of one of those tombs. I understand there was a very unique and unusual burial as in the way that the bodies were positioned inside of this mound. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah. So it's, it's really uncommon that most of the tombs in there were either oriented north to east, or sorry, uh, east to west, north to south. And this one was, had the orientation with three of the bodies in the same tomb that were north to south. And another one that was crossing them, and we're, I'm not for sure on the positioning of where on the bodies, but it crossed the three, and that was one person. Yeah, truly unique. I've never seen or heard of a burial like that at any other site. You know, as we've been here today, we've been seeing all the various mounds. This is one of the most unique and interesting sites that I've ever had the pleasure to be at. We're going to show you some more of those unique, some more of those unique artifacts, some of those rattles, all those things will be available to see in the museum, and we're going to go there next. Yes. So this is probably one of the coolest displays that we have throughout the entire museum. Tell us what we have going on here. So this is some of the burial goods and replicas that we actually got out of Twins Mound, which was a conical mound of two mounds put together. One of the mounds were excavated, the Northern Twin was, and we actually found some of the stuff in it. We had one team that had some females in it, and they were gorgeous, ornate stuff, beads that were envy. The pearls that we see today are actually our freshwater pearls that we have native to Tennessee, and they actually had a whole bunch. One of the ladies actually had five strands of them on her. Wow. Another thing cool is the marginella beads from the Gulf Coast. They were almost as the white as the pearls, and they were just ornate around their ankles. It's like anklets that we wear today. In the men's tombs, we actually found some really cool stuff. We actually found a boat stone, a schist pendant, which was very large for that time, and a mica mirror. So did you have women in one side and men on the other? So it was really weird. One of the tombs actually had six or eight females, and another one had four males, and then the third one had two males, and the last one that we opened actually had two females. So it was like half and half kind of split, but there were more females found. Two tombs we did not open, so we don't know what was in those. Okay, and what about the rattles that were found? So this is a really cool object. You can see them on display there. These are resin cast molds of the rattles that we found. They are knee rattles, so you would actually put these together. They had yellow crystals inside of them that are native to Arkansas. They would shake them and dance with them when they're attached to their knees. Wow, that's cool. So like a rattle. Yeah, so like a baby rattle or even a macarena. Yeah, but the weird thing is they're made out of human cranial bone. That's mind-blowingly insane. So that's made out of the top of the skull from another human. Yeah, so just like this right here. Wow, that is so cool. So is there any kind of speculation or thought as to, you know, was this, were these rattles, you know, or these parts of cranial sections, were they from someone in war or maybe a territory that was conquered or anything like that? So really we can't tell for sure. We don't know if there was warring tribes at that time because there's no evidence that here at this spot, but it could have been an older, maybe one of their older shamans had died, passed away, and they wanted to keep his power or maybe even... That's a good perspective, yeah. Or maybe even it was just a loved one and they wanted to keep them in their spiritual ceremonies. That's a great perspective to look at it. So in order to, you know, if that's the reason, in order to keep them, their memory alive, they would take a piece of the skull, put these crystals that came all the way from Arkansas, which is fascinating in and of itself, and would implement and reuse those in their dances and in their ceremonies. That's really, really cool. And so these are the replicas of what they are? So these are rattles and the resin casts of them, and they actually have the artwork. The weird thing was these are two separate rattle sets. So this one had a blank copy on its back and this one had a blank copy on its back. What do you mean by two separate rattles? So one on each knee, one set. Okay. So this one had a blank back to it. Oh. This was the outside of it. Okay, I got you. So this was the decorative side. What was the blank side on the back? What did that look like? Was that just another piece, flat piece of bone or something? So no, it was also a cranial bone. Really? So it had to come from four individuals. Really? That is so cool. Wow. So there were four, and if you add the person that was wearing them, five people in that ceremony at one time. Wow. That's really fantastic. Now, what on the designs, is there anything that we can ascertain about what the meaning of the designs are? Yeah. And if you want, we'll go over to the motifs and you can actually see them for yourself. Let's do that. Let's check that out. This is so cool. Okay. So tell us about what we've got here because this is an enlargement of the designs off the rattles, right? Yeah. So I've got this one in my hand. This is the resin cast one, but these are big blown up motifs so we can see the artwork. We'll start with this one because that's the one I have in my hand. If you look at it, there's a whole bunch of different stuff going on here. Just like any other artist, there's all kinds of meanings behind it. It actually, to me, almost looks 3D because we have this sketching in the back and this seems to almost pop out off of the sketch. Yeah. The really cool thing that I like to center on is this eye right here. It's pretty common in most of your cultures. There's always eye iconography anywhere, but here we think this might represent a bird of prey with the beak there. Oh, that's so cool. And even with the wings here. Yeah. Another thing, people think it's a snake wrapping around, but other than that, we don't really know exactly what it is. Now, do you have this also on the site where you have one image kind of popping out from an underlying image? Is that common on this site or is this very unique? So this is unique except for the next rattle because it's the only things we found with this kind of iconography. Our pottery and stuff are kind of like this kind of pattern. There's no other 3D dimension on it, but just to have this is just amazing to me. Oh, yeah. Have you found any other wooden or bone things that have any kind of artwork or design like it on it? Not on the site. Other places, of course, like Hopewell and Culture, they do. And that kind of makes me think of maybe they did, you know, trade some stuff. But here, this is the only two items that we found with art on it. Wow. Let's check this one. This one is probably my favorite. Some people say that there might be a butterfly here. Another theory is that actually, if you turn it over, it represents like the jaguars in South America. So if you look with the two beady eyes here and then the nose going up and the mouth here. Oh, that's cool. But my theory is that this is a map of the site. And of course, this thing could mean many different things. Yeah. But if you are at the lower, closer to the river of our site, there's actually a causeway that kind of comes up and our main mound is actually at the center of that causeway. Wow. Also, we have three large mounds on this complex. One in the east, one in the west, one in the east, and then one in the central. And the largest one is in the central mound. That is really cool. I like that it's part of the site idea. That's really fascinating. And so these are the only things that you really have from the site that has any kind of detailed artwork like this. So this detail, definitely just these two items. Wow. But there's always more to find. That's right. That's right. Oh, this is so cool. Wow. And behind us, you'll see Mound 28. Now, this is a very unique mound. It's a very large platform mound here at the site. One of many. Deidre, this particular mound has some astronomical alignments. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Sure. So this mound is about 11 feet tall by 215 and 216 feet wide. This one is very special because when you're on the Solstice Mound in our central location, this one lines up with the summer solstice sunrise. So it's very significant in that. But also, we don't know a lot about this mound. We know its size and we know that it lines up with the summer sunrise. But other than that, we really don't know what it's used for because back when the settlers were here, if anybody's ever dug potatoes, they know how hard it is to get in there and dig them up out of the ground. The settlers actually used this to plant their potatoes. On the edges, they planted them up on the edge of the mound. And when they would be ripe and ready to harvest, they would actually dig them out and roll them down to the base so they were easy to pick up. So that's why we kind of have a nickname of the potato mound here. Wow. Incredible history. Now, one more thing that's unique to this mound, as you mentioned earlier, there's human ashes or potentially ashes that are distributed throughout these mounds. And that's the case with this one. Is that correct? Yes. So some of the test pits that they did send down into the mound, just as brown as the same mounds around it, there are human ashes in it. It's not to say it's condensed to one specific location. It's kind of mixed in just like today when you would have a loved one pass away. Maybe they had a special place they loved to go to or a special ceremonial place. You would take their ashes and deposit them there. Same thing with here. This was their special place, their most sacred site. And to be interred with your ashes here was probably one of the highest achievements you can get. And this particular mound, it's very large, has a huge scope. What are the estimates on the time that it would have taken to build something of this size? Well, it depended on how long they were here at that time and depending on how many people, because they probably wouldn't have worked but about four or five hours out of the day and then stayed out of the hot days in the summer. Probably around 10 to 20 years depending on how many people were working on it. Here we have a very unique mound, astronomical alignments, a history all of its own, everything from the native inhabitants all the way up to agriculture in the modern age. Very unique mound here at Pinson, one of many that we're going to see here today. Okay, so this display is of the pottery that was constructed here on the site. When does pottery first appear on this site? So, it appeared as soon as the people appear here. So, as soon as they start, you know, work on this site, those people have pottery? Oh yes, they brought it with them. If they didn't or if they started here, they had it already made or they were making it as they were setting up here. Okay, okay. What type of pottery do we have? So, we have a couple examples of the pottery that was actually found here. Most of it is going to be a reddish gray color or a reddish brown color because we have natural deposits of the red sand here and they use sand into making their pottery a little bit more stronger. The coolest thing though is one of our potteries that we had, we pulled the shards out, had a stamp pattern. So, one of the ways that the Native Americans would decorate their pottery would be to stamp paddle it. So, just like you're thinking about a paddle used to get a piece of pizza out or something like that, these are smaller and it's actually right there and they actually took these pieces of shards, scanned it and pulled the image off of it and we kind of flipped it and created our own pattern out of the paddle that they would have had here at that time. Oh, that's cool. So, they would have used that paddle to smack the side of the vessel in order to put a design onto it and so you were able to scan it and then flip it and were able to recreate the actual design from something that was here. That is really cool. Yeah, it's super neat. So, we actually have the paddle on display for people to see and we actually are going to start doing some programs and actually let people use a recreation of that pattern to create their own piece of Pinson history. That's awesome. That's really cool. So, you've got pottery going on just as soon as people show up here and what types of vessels are there? Are these storage containers? Are these cooking vessels? What kind of? So, we have several different types. Some of them are actually just storage containers you would think of in your pantry, flat bottoms, but these are really cool because these have the cone-shaped bottoms. These would have been set in a fire. So, these would have been like your pots and pans of that day. That is really cool. So, it's not ceremonial stuff. It's everyday utilitarian stuff. Now, there are some ceremonial stuff that we have found in tops of mounds and some of the burial sites, but most of the stuff we're finding were those everyday items. Yeah, something that's really interesting. You were talking. You were telling us off camera that I definitely don't want to forget to go in because this is so cool. So, you were talking about the red and the yellow sand that they incorporate into their pottery. What's going on with that? So, here in West Tennessee, we don't really have cave systems because we don't have the geology that has that. We don't have the rock formations. We don't have the limestone. Here, we have sandy clay loom bottom soils that are very easily run off, but the cool thing is it's sand. The natives needed sand to make their pottery, so sand was very special to them. Also, since we didn't have caves, we don't have the access to their underworld, but we do have springs with water coming out of them, but the cool thing is those springs, when we have a heavy rain, will spit out pure white sand or pure red sand or mixes of the two colors. What? So, a special site with special areas of the site spitting out special colored pieces of sand is super interesting. That's one. I think one of the coolest things about this site is you've got an area long before anybody was settling on this site or doing anything on this site. Naturally and geologically, the springs that were on this site were in heavy rains. The springs would spit out red sand and yellow sand, and if there's anything that makes you think that, well, this would be a good area to settle because of just that, you know, that's just mind-blowing to me, and then to know that they incorporated that sand into the pottery that was found here, that's just mind-blowing, too. One of the cool things is that they didn't just incorporate it in their pottery, they incorporated it into their mound building, so there are cake layers in the mounds covered and topped with different colored sands. Really? That and the only wet place that those sands could have come were out of those springs? Some of them come from the springs. We do have some. That's cool. They come out of South Georgia. Okay, so you have sand from South Georgia that's traveled all the way up here to be incorporated into the the mounds. We have several artifacts that we have found that have come from all over the North United States. That's fascinating. This is really an incredible site. Oh yeah, millions of people have traveled through here before even the settlers were here. Right. So there's no telling what is still able to be found out there. That's awesome. All right, let's go check out the next display. Let's go, yeah. Behind us is Mound 30. Now this is a proposed effigy mound in the shape of a bird. We'll have some aerial photos that you can see that later, but tell us the history of this mound. What makes it so unique to this area? Well, we don't have any other effigy mounds on the site, so most of the time effigy mounds are mound shaped in, say, a bird or a snake, some more of the common areas that we know of. So this represents somebody that was very high in their status because there was actually a man found in the center of this one. So there was a burial in this one as well. We don't really know a whole lot about him. He was about 50 to 60 years old, so he was very old for that time. And we suspect that he was a high ranking in either the ceremonial aspects or the cultural aspects of their time. Absolutely. What type of artifacts were found with the burial, if any? So there wasn't a whole lot that was left. The burial actually collapsed and had a lot of debris and dirt that was in there. So it was very detrimental and kind of obscured. But we did find some pottery shards that had some of the same iconography that is in our museum, or the patterns like our pottery bowls in there. And then we also found some shards and stuff. I think it's very interesting that the positioning of the effigy mound, you can't really see it, but here to my left, there is a very deep cavern, or basically a run that goes straight down. And right at the top of that, you have what's proposed to be an eagle effigy mound. It's almost as if it's ready to take flight. I think that's a really interesting coincidence. It is. One of the really cool, fascinating things is how far stuff has traveled to this site. And in the museum, you've got a real nice map. Show us where things that have been found here, where they've traveled from. So we have a whole bunch of stuff that's traveled all over the country just to get to this site. One of the cool things is, of course, mica. We have some natural deposits in Tennessee, but we didn't know about them until we started mining. They were not ground level where Native Americans could get to them. So they had to travel actually from West Virginia and a little bit south of that to come over here. Another thing that's really neat is copper. So copper was actually used on the headdresses in some of our burials and used as earpieces in some of them. That had to travel all the way from Canada. So it had to come across the Great Lakes or around the Great Lakes to get down here. That is fascinating. So you've got copper here that you know for a fact this copper was from the Great Lakes region that traveled all the way down to this site. The reason we know it specifically came from that is because that's the only ground level ore that you can get around here on this side of the country. Just the same way with the obsidian that we have here. It had to cross the Rocky Mountains and the Mississippi River to get over here. That's crazy that you guys have obsidian that has been brought all the way to this site. What other kind of materials do you have? So of course we got some quartz crystal. Those things are gorgeous and anything. And we actually have some beads and stuff that are made and pieces of jewelry that are made from that. Wow. Another thing is the marginella beads from the Gulf Coast down in Alabama that traveled all the way up here. One of the ladies that was in the tombs actually had five strands of freshwater pearls on her when she was buried. So that's a lot of pearls. The freshwater pearls don't get near as big as the ocean pearls. They're a lot harder to find. So you've got literally stuff from just about nearly the entirety of the United States kind of coming to this site. Yes. During this period, is there any other, during this specific period, is there any other kind of sites that are major like this one? Or is this kind of a major kind of hub site that exists during that time? So this site was actually one of the major hubs in that time period. There were some smaller sediments in the southern United States, but really the whole Hopewellian culture was just kind of starting to get its taste. Right. And over the times of Pinson Mounds, it's kind of like we were here and then we were at the same time as the Hopewellian and then we were a little bit after too. It's almost kind of like we did a little circle loop and traded back and forth and influenced each other. So we have some Hopewellian influences and then they have some Pinson influences as well. So it's really cool. And all of this stuff also come with not just the materials, but the stories, the people, the pottery. Some of the pottery that we have is from a specific site in Georgia that is only found there. And they actually brought the paddle here and made it with our clay, but the Georgia paddle. Really? So you got a pottery maker in Georgia that traveled with her paddle or his paddle to make pottery out of out of the clay that's here and then that was found here. Yes. That's mind-blowing. Yeah. So that's, that's so cool. Yeah. And you gotta think they didn't have the roads and the cars inside. They were manpower in canoes and boats coming up and down those riverbanks. Yeah. Or on foot. On foot, yeah. And there's some dance force in between here and Georgia, let me tell you. That's awesome. What's your favorite material that's traveled to this site? Oh gosh. My personal favorite is probably everybody else's is the obsidian because I have used that obsidian before. I actually nap and create arrowheads myself. And just to know that that traveled all those distances and the elevation it had to cross with the Rocky Mountains and the treacherous sea with the Mississippi River, it just amazes me that that piece survived all the way across to get to us. Now was it a raw piece of obsidian, a natural piece of obsidian, or was it a tool that was made out of obsidian? So we have both here. So we have the raw material that has never been touched or napped. Then we have some that were kind of attached to some gorgette pieces. Okay. And then we have just a arrowhead. Just a regular arrowhead like you would see. Wow. That's so cool. So they were bringing it in and using it. Well let's see, that's one of the fascinating things that people don't, you know, really think about with prehistoric Native America is, is just how much people traveled, how much people traded, you know, things got around. There was trade and travel back then just like there is today. What's fascinating about sites like this and the importance of doing archaeological work is you can kind of get a window into where people traveled, you know, from and how they got to places by looking at the materials that were found like obsidian or copper or the crystal or, you know, the paddle that made it all the way back up. So that's really cool. That's really cool. So this is the second largest mound that we have on the site and the only mound that has a ramp. What's the story with this one? So this is Ozier Mound. It is 52 feet tall and it's got a base of around the same size as one of our other mounds, about 230 to 215 feet. So it's a pretty large base. It is kind of roundish but it still has that square top to it and it also points in the cardinal directions. The cool thing about Ozier is that if you can look you can still see that ramp that they used to get up and down the mound. We suggest that that means that was highly used and we've even got evidence of it being used for about a thousand years. Oh wow. Yeah. So you were telling us on the way up here about a hearth that was found that was located not too far from it. How does that tie in with this feature? So we actually have discovered a hearth in 2019. It's one of our earlier discoveries that it's kind of new and it has a walkway or pathway, some kind of path to the base, the central base of this Ozier Mound. That is so cool. You know, that's one of the things that's fascinating about this site is that, you know, there's still so much that needs to be learned, that needs to be studied here. I mean, this is a huge site. Like, you don't understand. If you're gonna come here, spend two days, spend three days here. This place is giant and it's got a huge, huge story that is still unfolding every year, all the time. What kind of field schools do you guys have out here? So we have a professor at Colorado State that actually brings his students as well as some of the Tennessee State Archaeology works with other universities and has field schools out here. The last two years we've been doing a lot of the LIDAR data and LIDAR testing and scanning and that's what they're really focusing on right now is where do they need to pinpoint their research and where do they need to stay away from. So right now you guys are kind of doing the non-invasive stuff to try to figure out where you've got features and concentrations before you put in a trench and decide. Exactly. See, that's awesome and you guys were just doing that, what, two years ago? Last year? Last summer, actually. Last summer. Yeah. So there's still a lot of active archaeology that's being done out here and still the story is unfolding and unfolding and unfolding. The Pinson story never stops. That's so cool, man. And I mean, it's just, it's incredible to see these kind of features in, you know, North America's landscape. You know, we don't think of, you know, giant mounds and and and effigy mounds and all kinds of crazy, we don't think about this kind of stuff in American history, but it is, this is part of the story of the western hemisphere, the story of North America, and it is definitely worth coming and checking out and visiting for sure. So this is a really exciting part of what you guys have going on here at Pinson Mounds, is this, where we're at, we're in an area that's not open to the public, that is property that you guys just acquired that is earlier but also correlates with the main site over there. Tell us what we have going on over here. So we have a lot of the same middle woodland structures, but mixed in with in between those is pockets of archaic settlements, so about five to eight thousand years ago, so that's super older than the other site, but it still has the woodland features and we still find woodland artifacts here too. Wow, so on this site, you know, how far are we from the other side? We're about average about six miles and a few miles up river. Okay, so we're a few miles up river, six miles as the crow flies from the other site, and we've still got things going on here. We've got mounds here, there's hardly been any exploration that's been done here. That's just fascinating, and you've got a map that kind of lays out the different mounds. Kind of go over what we've got, what we're seeing here. So we're seeing a huge kind of cut out that's up in the rise from the old riverbeds, and so this kind of falls along that. Mound one is actually the one that's behind us right now, and one of the cool features is that when we look at mound four, it correlates back with our mound 29, and we can talk about that a little later, but yeah, so it's really cool. It's a cool concept. It's on a big bluff, kind of like other sites, but it's so neat because it has that time period, that huge scope of time that was used here. Well, what's fascinating is, is this is an area that hasn't been explored. There's still a lot of mysteries to be known here, you know, and the state, you guys still have a lot of work you have to do, especially in areas of conservation, because this is, this is, you know, what was he So 2010, this became part of the park. You're kind of preparing it to be open to the public one day, but you've got to conserve and maintain the mounds and the structures are here, and there's a mound back here that's kind of in jeopardy just from natural erosion. Yes. Tell us a little bit about that. So west Tennessee, we don't have the limestone and the rocks that we do in middle and east Tennessee. A lot of it's sand, and sand is highly erodible, and we don't have the natural landscape and stuff to help that. It kind of just kind of flows away with the water, and that's what's happening under our mound here. It was the natural riverbed, so the river did flow around here a lot, and so now that the runoff, and it has been channelized, so that has disrupted the water flow a little bit, and as that water flows, it pulls stuff with it, kind of grabs it as it goes, as it's slowing down and going down the slopes. That has led to a lot of the bluff here falling off. Well, this mound is on the bluff, and so we're very worried about it kind of falling to kind of nature. Yeah. But we can actually help it. Well, and this is something that we want to show you guys and explain to you guys because, you know, not all of history of American history, especially prehistoric Native American history, is protected, is saved. You know, federal, state, and local governments and federal governments are trying to do their best to protect it and save it, but they need your help. Sites like this that have been in private hands that are now in the public care need assistance, and we want to show you guys. You just need to see it. Let's take you back and let's show them what this looks like, and then we'll show you guys how you can help. All right, let's go check this out. So, Deidre, this is kind of scary looking. What's going on here? Yeah, it's pretty safe, and you can see there's not a whole lot of vegetation left, and you can really see some of the roots and stuff. Yeah. This is that erosion that I was talking about earlier where the soil, it kind of just falls apart, falls away. You can see the trees are kind of already falling over. The mound that we were talking about is just right beyond those two trees at the very, very top. Only about 30 feet is what's keeping it from being down here as well. Right. So, you've got, you know, still on these sites that are just, you know, they've been here for thousands and thousands of years, but, you know, human beings have changed the landscape a lot, and it was in the 19-teens the river was straightened, and so that changes water flow, changes water patterns, and it can cause massive erosion, and so you've got a site like this that literally the mound is right up on top of here, and erosion is doing its thing. That's all erosion wants to do is to make hills flat. That's it, and this is it in action right now, and so the state, you know, you guys are working towards doing whatever you can to, you know, preserve and protect and save this because this is a site that hasn't been explored, you don't know anything about, and possibly the story could be lost forever literally in front of our eyes. So, what are some things that, you know, the people out there can do? Is there, you know, an organization they can reach out to if they want to donate or if they want to get involved? Tell them what they can do. You can always call us at the park, and we can always send you in the right direction, but one of the main things that helps us out is we have a group called the Friends of Pinson Mounds, and they are a friends group, and they help us purchase stuff and purchase things that the state normally we couldn't do, or maybe even like just a cookout or something to help us staff members just take a break for one day, but this is something that they could help us with, and you guys could help us with. I don't want to see this just dissolve into the ground. There might be, there might be a burial in it, and we need to protect that as well, so I never want to see just stuff go into natural causes, which isn't, it's going to happen, but it'd be nice to help slow it down before we can get all the data out. Or at least to explore the area before, you know, that history is lost forever. So, it's a Facebook group, right? We have a Facebook group, and then you can call the park and ask for our people, and they can actually talk to them as well. Okay, that is something to reach out to. The Friends of Pinson Mounds State Park in Pinson, Tennessee. That is definitely worth something getting involved, something worth reaching out. That is how you guys can get out there and help. There's a lot of ways, a lot of things that they do that, you know, they can utilize your, your talents, you know, everything from helping you guys take a break every now and then to other projects around the park, or to save something like this from literally being destroyed. History is in our hands. We are showing it to you, but in another hundred years, or ten years, this could be completely gone. So, I urge you to reach out to the Friends of Pinson Mounds on Facebook, or call the park directly, and they can get you in touch, and that's a way that you can get involved. So, this is a huge facility that you guys have got here. I mean, I love the construction of it, but you've got a whole basement that's underneath the museum. That's something that's pretty epic, and if I look down, there's, there's rooms down there, and stuff down there, and scientific instruments, and it's, there, what's, what's going on in the basement? So, down here, that's really cool. So, if we look down here, we actually see the laboratory. So, every single summer, we have a field school, or some type of investigation along where people come down here, archaeologists, archaeology and training, actually come and excavate, or scan, or do some kind of archaeological investigations here on site. So, you guys have a complete lab that is here, that once archaeological work has been done out in, out on site, you don't have to transport it miles and miles away to some university. It actually gets studied and understood here on site in your lab. Yeah, so the cool thing is, here at Pinson, we offer the group camp where people can actually stay here, and they stay on site, do the research on site. It kind of gives it a cool feeling that you're doing this in the presence of the site, and you're still getting to do it while you're here. That's so cool, and that's hugely important, especially for, you know, because, you know, you're, you're, it really keeps everything in-house. Right. You know, it's really like, this is a dedication to study the history of this culture that built these mounds during this time. That's something that's really cool. Yeah, it doesn't get wrapped up and sent off to, like you said, the university. It stays here, and it feels like it's, it stays home. Right. Like, it stays where it's supposed to be, and we get to learn about it where it needs to be learned about. So, if we have a question or, you know, oh, I forgot, you know, what that mound looked like, we just go back outside. Yeah. And enjoy it ourselves. Yeah, and see, that's, that's a cool idea. You're down, you're, you're trying to understand something. You go, I got an idea. I wonder if this pans out, and you walk out and around and go look at what you're trying to figure out and understand. That, that's a really cool idea. How many other sites do you know of in the United States that are kind of like that? There's not many that I know. Gosh, if I would have to guess, it'd be under half a dozen, if that. Yeah, there's very few sites. So, I mean, this is something incredibly special that you guys have going on here. I, I'm truly impressed. This, this, without a doubt, is, is a phenomenal surprise and definitely worth a trip out to check this out. This is really cool that you guys have a lab. How often do you have people working down in there? Every single summer. Every single summer. Sometimes we do actually have archaeologists that come from Nashville and actually work here. We actually had some here last week. I actually went down and done some stuff with them, hands-on stuff. So, we have activity here all the time. Wow, that's so cool. Okay, so this is the, I guess this is going to be our final stop on our trip around the weirdest prehistoric site we've ever, at least I've ever seen. There are so many mysteries here, and this, what we're standing next to, is one of those mysteries. So, what is this, this little pit? This is called the duck's nest. Yeah, so it's, it would be a pretty big duck to have a nest this size, but what we associated with is a big fire pit or a bonfire pit. Somebody has bonfire parties out in their yard. Yeah. This area had a lot of charcoal remains and a lot of heat-strong dirt and debris that was in there. So, archaeologically, you know that there was major, that there were, there was a big fire here at some point. Okay. Either there was a very large fire that lasted for hours or multiple fires over years. Over years, okay. What other things have been found in this, and this dates with the, what, what period does this date to? This dates strictly with the Middle Woodland era, the main site. Okay, so this dates with the main site. So, this was active at the same type that was active. Yes. That, this is just so weird. Do you, I mean, any idea what it was used for? Some of us think that maybe it was kind of like what we use a lighthouse as today in the modern times. Maybe a signal or say, hey, stop here. This is where you get off. How far was the river? So, the river would have actually backed up right against this, this site right here. Really? So, the, so the river prehistorically would have been literally at the bottom of the hill right back there. So, about 30 yards behind us. Huh. I like that lighthouse idea. That's, that's pretty interesting. So, cool. Jason, what do you, what are your thoughts on this place? Well, overall, this is one of the most fantastically bizarre sites that I have seen. It is truly remarkable. It's just monumental in scope. It is absolutely huge. There's so many layers, so many things here to see. It's literally taken us all day to see the site, and it's just scattered with mounds, scattered with so much archaeology and history, and it's truly one of the most remarkable sites I've had the pleasure to see. Thank you for being our tour guide today. It has truly been one of the best tours, and you've been a fantastic host. Well, thank you. I'm honored. Yeah, no, thank you so much, and thank you guys out there for watching. Now, the one thing about this park is, is that, you know, they need help. They need assistance. You know, there's some volunteer work that you can do. There's still a lot of things that are, that are being explored, that are being discovered on this site. The story is still unfolding. If people want to volunteer, if people want to help out, where can they, where can they do that at? Yeah, so we have multiple places you can find us at. Our Facebook is our best way, because I post, like, programs we do, interpretive hikes, fun stuff. I also do volunteer days on there as well, so you can just google Pinson Mound State Park in Tennessee, or you can actually go on our website as well, so that's the best way to reach us. You can also call us, and I'd be happy to talk with you about things. And where are we at in location on Interstate 40? So, we're how many miles from Jackson? We are only about 15 miles from Jackson. We're 20 miles off of the interstate of I-40. 20 miles off the interstate. Guys, this is definitely worth seeing for sure, and we are all about to go record an awesome Seven Ages Audio Journal podcast on this site as well, so be sure to go onto your local, your podcast app, or onto the YouTube version of it. YouTube, or you can always find the shows at sevenages.org. They're available on all podcast catchers, Apple podcast, any type of application that you use for your podcast. And it's going to be a great episode, and we're going to get, on that episode, we're going to get more in-depth into this site, so definitely go there and check that out. Seven Ages Audio Journal. And you are watching Chasing History. We are the educational arm of the Smoky Mountain Relic Room. If you know what to do, if you like stuff, you can like us, if you want to subscribe, subscribe to all this madness, we'd greatly appreciate it. Oh, are either of you guys on Twitter? You do Twitter? I don't do Twitter. You don't do Twitter? Yes. For shame! No! Twitter is, Twitter is evil. We will never, ever, ever be on Twitter. Remember, history rocks. Okay, so here's our display that... Good thing you have an editor. Yeah. It's not my display, it's their display. This is one of the weirdest places I've ever been. This is such a cool episode, and you guys need to definitely check it out, because you know why? These guys right here are freaking epic. That's why. These are epic people doing epic stuff right there. History rocks. We were supposed to have... We were supposed to have stupid lapel mics, but it was... Okay, so... What? My face? Yeah, you're just like, ah, what's going on?