Shen Yun Artists Respond to New York Times Articles

In August of 2024, the New York Times published a series of stories alleging abuse within Shenyuan performing arts. With its mission to revive traditional Chinese culture, all but lost in communist China, Shenyuan has become a global sensation. Now, both former and current Shenyuan artists are saying they've been misrepresented by the Times. So what's the real story? For the first time tonight, you're going to hear from the people that have been most affected. Here are their stories. So you have a sense of what elite training looks like in the, you know, There's this New York Times article that's come out that has painted an extremely different picture. How do you react to that? From my experience, it's quite the opposite. I think it's unjust. You have this wonderful group of people with personalities and their interests, their hobbies. Since I've been here, like I got help for myself. With jumping is easy, right? They watch you, but getting up you are like jumping up. No, no, you watch them. You watch because I've interviewed thought leaders from all walks of life, including artists and performers. Sometimes when they are misrepresented in other media, I like to look at the facts, hear their stories, and give my audience the full picture. The Epoch Times has been a media sponsor of Shenyuan for years. I was shocked to see how Shenyuan artists were portrayed in these recent New York Times pieces. Now, the artists themselves are telling their side of the story. I did read the articles and my initial reaction is the same as a lot of the other dancers to Shenyuan were really surprised and sad by what we saw on the article. I performed with Shenyuan for seven years. From my experience in Shenyuan, I really do feel like it was very, very valuable for me. She asked me like, are you okay? Are you happy there? And I was like, I've never been happier in my life by being there. My name is Cindy Kai. I'm a dancer with Shenyuan Performing Arts. Even though we went through the same experiences, I'm getting a completely different picture of what of what it's really like. While I've interviewed Shenyuan's spokespeople and artists before, I wanted to dig deeper and find out what the public is really missing. Thank you all for joining me here today. This time, I spoke with performers who don't usually go on camera for unscripted discussions about their lives. There's this New York Times article that's come out. What emerged was a picture quite different from that painted in the New York Times. So what was your reaction to the article? Just jump in. I feel saddened by it. I feel disappointed in the media. I feel like this article really, it dehumanized us in a way that it put us all like, you have this wonderful group of people with personalities and their interests, their hobbies and their activities, what they like to do, right? And then you're just classifying them all as this oppressive atmosphere. And I feel like that's very, first of all, it's very unfair. And second of all, I think it's unjust. My very first reaction was, what? Like, I was very confused. How could this be happening? Like, an environment that has given us so much and helped us grow so much? Like, why is it getting tarnished like this? And we really want to speak up. And we wanted to, you know, like, share our stories. Like, this isn't, this isn't what's happening. I remember that night, everybody, like, we sat down and started writing the experiences that they've been through over the years. Well, into like, midnight, like people were still typing, because they had so much to say, like, we've, like, we really, really want to like, speak up for what's right. And I think, yeah, I think everyone kind of feels that way. Honestly, when I read this article, I felt like I was reading some kind of like, horror novel, a work of fiction, basically. I'm not invalidating anyone's experiences. But I do feel like they do miss a really big part of things. And it's like the good part, the positive parts about the experiences you gain here. Because the Shen Yun that they describe is not the Shen Yun that I go to every day. Shen Yun was born in 2006, founded in New York by a group of artists who practice Falun Gong. They wanted to showcase traditional Chinese culture, a culture that the communist takeover of China attempted to erase. Today, Shen Yun's eight touring groups, dancers, singers, and full orchestras perform in front of nearly a million people worldwide each year. At a scenic remote campus in upstate New York, Shen Yun also nurtures artistic talent through Feitian Academy of the Arts and Feitian College, two religiously affiliated private boarding schools. One of the key claims in the New York Times articles is that Shen Yun neglected medical treatment and fostered a climate where dancers were afraid to seek care for their injuries. But dancers we talked to, along with many others who posted their experiences online, challenged this assertion. You want to take care of a world-class performer if he has to actually give that level of artistry on stage. It doesn't make sense to just like, go fix yourself, you know, that just doesn't work. It's like throwing Simone Biles out, just go take care of yourself while she's limping around. She can't complete what she's meant to do. For decades, the Chinese Communist Party has run an aggressive propaganda campaign against Shen Yun and Falun Gong. It falsely paints Falun Gong practitioners as engaging in a range of harmful activities, including routinely refusing medical treatment and having extreme beliefs. Now, these same misleading claims are echoed in the recent New York Times articles. Shen Yun artists talked me through some of these allegations. There's this claim that, you know, we're dancing through injuries, you know, but like, if you think about it logically, if our attrition rate really were that high, and we're like losing dancers every season, we have to maintain a world-class standard for the audience. You can't just do that if people are just limping around stage, you know. So obviously, it's in our best interest to take care of our performers, to take care of ourselves. I'm just trying to speak on, you know, on psychology here. Because if you don't tell anybody your injury, nobody's going to know, you know, every single time I let other people know that I'm injured, I'm hurt. I always got switched out of certain spots, or our instructors or our manager would go out of their way to make sure that I was actually okay. Hey, are you actually okay? Are you serious? Do you actually want to restore your position? Are you okay with this? But if I don't tell anybody, nobody's going to take care of you, right? Nobody's going to be able to. Maybe they'll see you limping, but they don't know the difference between limping because your foot's sore, or maybe you're recovering from a minor spring, or if you actually tore something, right? Every time I've been injured, like everybody, like people raise their hands. Yeah, you know, I'm going to cover that routine there, you know, don't worry about it. I'm going to go out from stage left, I'll come out, and then come out and go back to stage right. I think there's like this misconception where like, when artists get injured, or when we be like hurt ourselves, we don't go like, you know, get cured, or we don't, we just kind of like, you know, like, oh, we can stay strong. But that's, that's very not true. Because I have a lot of classmates who, because of injuries, they were taken to medical care right away. Like last year, on practicum, I during self practice, I was doing a jump. And I think when I landed, my timing was a bit funky. And I, I fell, and I kind of sprained my ankle. And then I remember my teacher came over to me, and she asked me, like, Are you okay? Like, do you think you can do it? Like, we can, you know, help, like change the formations and like, take your place. I kind of have a similar experience. Because, um, I remember one of the years too, it was right before the show, too. I was doing a flip, and I landed, and then I did something funny to my knee, it hurt a lot. And then at that time, like instantly, like, the teachers come over, there'd be like, they would ask, like, oh, like, we can change people, like, we can change our formations, we can change the dances, you don't have to go on. For me, I actually asked the teachers, is it okay if I go on stage? I think, of course, it's all within, like, my own limits. Like, I know what I can do, what I can't do. If I'm really, like, about to collapse, of course, I won't be like, oh, I need to, like, push through just like to prove that I can. Sometimes they might have a rupture, they might have a tear, like it happens in any athletic, artistic field. So yeah, they get treated right away. Like, all of this is just, like, common practice that there's no, there's no voodoo going on. There's no, like... Yeah, we have first aid kits on both sides of the stage. We have Band-Aids and gauze pads. And then I'm pretty sure all dancers were pretty well educated in what color, I mean, like, you know, all those wraps and what feels good. Yeah. We're very, we're very good with talking, talking through problems with each other. It's always been like this team effort where everybody is just working to help each other and to make sure that the audience is getting, you know, the best that we can possibly offer them. Fear, emotional abuse, threatened. These are words you'll find repeatedly in the New York Times articles. But the artists who talked to us said that their lives at Shen Yun weren't like that at all. From my experience, it's quite the opposite. Before coming over to the East Coast, joining Feiting and joining Shen Yun, I've been bullied before, you know, it's happened in school. And that's something I had to overcome on my own. And coming here, the community and the environment makes me feel so much safer. You know, my personality changed so much that like I actually opened up a lot more. I became more sociable because everyone around me is so open minded and like accepting and like everyone's got my back that I've become like a person who's willing to drop like my guard down. I think this community in Shen Yun is very precious because when I see like younger people coming into our troops or like younger generations after me, I feel like an obligation to help them like how when I first came, people helped me out. So I know that in a lot of artistic companies, there's always a sense of competition, like the competition is very intense. It's like, eat or be eaten, like how, however high you are on the food chain, that's like your position or like, oh, if I fall to the bottom of the totem pole, I'm going to be eliminated, right. But then at Shen Yun, I think we really strive to like, really help each other and pull each other forward. Since I got to Shen Yun, like since I've been here, like I got hope for myself, like I used to suffer from depression, like I had like, like very bad moments in my life before joining Shen Yun. And I haven't had those for a very long time because like I feel that, that, you know, like the commitment that we have with each other that it's like, I'll support you, it's not a competition, like we're literally like, okay, I push you, you push me and I push the other one and you push. So it's like something like it's in a very healthy way. As teachers, right, one of the claims in this piece is that some of the teachers are very harsh, right? Is there a place for being harsh? The word harsh is used very inaccurately, because in my experience, I've been in Shen Yun for well over a decade, and I never felt coercion. I would say I felt guidance. I'm being guided past my limit, never forced past my limit. My instructor will give me critical feedback. Is it like sometimes is it hard to take? Critiques are hard to take. Yeah, but there is never like in your face and like you suck as a person. No, it's like you can do this to improve better. For example, let's say like the teacher thing, if like throughout the week, the teacher is very, very kind and patient, and you know, explaining things to the student in a very nice way. And maybe one day, maybe they were just having a kind of bad day. And then they kind of, the words are a little bit harder, that student takes it, but you know, and then you just take that one day, and it feels like, oh, this teacher has been attacking me my whole life. Actually, a lot of times it's not true. Like back to the, the teacher being harsh on students, like my teacher, a lot of times they would, because you know, in a dance classroom, when the music is playing, when like when the piano teacher is playing music, like, you have to be like, like for example, everyone is lifting their right arm, and you're lifting your left arm, okay, you're lifting the wrong arm, like you have to speak up, right? But hey, you're lifting the wrong arm, no one's gonna be able to hear you. But like, that's just how this, you know, this classroom works. But a lot of times, the teacher would come down and explain to us like, why I was being, you know, maybe a bit harder with my words in that moment, maybe first of all, okay, to let to let you hear me, but also because, you know, you were different than other people, and I want you to be better. So like, there's a lot of communication going along with teacher and student, it's definitely not like, one sided, like, oh, I'm just getting attacked. It's definitely not like that. And I'm pretty sure that if you ask any Olympic athlete or any successful person, like at the end of the day, are they going to look back at their path and think, wow, I wish my teacher was more lax on me. So I could have been less successful. No, they're going to look back at all those times. And they're going to thank their teachers for pushing them there. You need someone to tell you no, you can do more, I see more potential in you than you see in yourself. That is what makes a responsible teacher, you think, okay, well, maybe we're just dancing as our career. But then you're looking back, like all the lessons you learned along the way, maybe my teacher told me, oh, you can do more than you believe, then well, I will take this knowledge, I will apply it to other parts of my life. If you look at the facts in the years since it's been established, Shen Yun has grown from one company to eight companies, or touring, like all over all over the world, we're performing in top theaters everywhere. And then if we really are this institution painted by the New York Times, like, how could you do that? Like, sure, like, if you accuse us of forcing people to stay in this fear inducing environment for sharing, yeah, that it's growing and developing. And it's not just like, staying on the same track, we're like, becoming better and better. We're pushing ourselves to world top performance. It's like, if it really was like that, like, could you force every single person in a company to stay and improve and make the company better? Like for me personally, I want to stay in a company that made me feel threatened and like insecure and had all these regulations. Why would I willingly choose to stay somewhere like that? And for over a decade, too. The New York Times articles painted a picture of dancers who were put under pressure to lose weight, and shamed if they failed to do so. Like, is there anything you feel was, you know, taken out of context? Is there anything that's true in there? I feel everything was taken out of context. To be honest, yeah. I would imagine there's a lot of cherry picking involved because like, me and some of the male dancers, we were going through the article and some of the stuff is like, it's like the biggest joke to us like malnourished. Like, that was the biggest joke to me. Like if you've seen me eat, you would malnourish would be the last thing you know, I like on your mind. Like, we should see us at a buffet. Yeah, we don't ban of foods exist. We don't shy away from we don't show you we just we just work it off afterwards. Obviously, you got to burn your calories, get your reps in but like, yeah, sorry, I'll just end it here. But there's much to say on that topic. I'm gonna show you what Shen Yun dancers eat on tour. Check out the spread. Alright, so we got some pasta here. Like spaghetti. There's pork chops. The log so we can show you a little bit of that foot. Alright guys, let's go. What is that cinnamon thing? It's about like nutrition too. You don't want to stuff yourself with sweets. You know, gymnasts know this too. When you have a lot of excess weight on your body, it places more burden on your on your bones and your your knees, your cartilages. You know, you're actually harming yourself by not being you know, being aware of what you're eating. It's like, okay, do I want to wear out my knees a little earlier? Or do I want to eat healthy and maybe be able to dance comfortably for another few years? Right? So there's that aspect of it. Yeah, I remember our teacher saying like, you know, having a proper diet, it's not like, okay, I'm not gonna eat at all, or I'm only gonna like, like eat a little bit every day. But actually, it's like, she suggested that we have proper meals every day, but just like limit the snacking, you know, in between. So like, people maybe have like misconceptions, like, oh, dancers like they're, like, they just don't eat whether they're scared to eat, but actually, it's not true. Like, you know, like, we eat pretty normally we eat, if we eat healthy, you know, like, yeah, it's, it's enough to just to have a healthy diet. It's not like, that extreme. So let me address a couple of things that that were specifically mentioned in the article, right? This is, you know, Shen Yun has treated many of its performers as an expendable commodity. That's a direct quote, and then most described feeling used by a religious movement that was focused on spreading its views. How would you react to that characterization in the early paragraphs of an article? Yeah, I think it's the opposite, because I've seen a lot of on a lot of occasions where like, you know, management will actually talk to dancers about like their future. You know, and they're actually talking about what they could do in the future or what their goals are. And basically, they're thinking a couple steps ahead of just these individual dancers. So I mean, in my own case, it was like that, too, you know, they would talk to me about options in the future, hey, have you thought about doing this or that? And are you interested in, in stage production, or a dancer's life is very finite. You know, you can't you can't dance for 50 years like a singer, you know, singer, you can sing your 7080. A dancer, when you're in the 30s, you start to consider other options, right? So it's just it's very, very real. It's not that people are being tossed and thrown away. I remember in 15 college, I took a speech and debate course, I took digital design, you know, Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere, and even like, you know, InDesign, sort of like everything that I would never use as a dancer, it was sort of the breadth of what you had access to in terms of expanding your reach. There's this kind of stereotype around elite athletic schools that, you know, you don't really need to focus on the academics that much. So you're telling me a bit of a different story here. When I think in Feitian, the teachers do they do want the students to strive in the academics as well, because it actually it's connected to part of our dance, for example, not to a class in history, Chinese history, Western history, math, English, all around it. And so once, let's say in the future, you don't dance anymore, you are able to, you know, pursue other careers. The artists told me that every Feitian student receives a full ride scholarship that covers tuition, textbooks, accommodation and meals. Additionally, students are allowed to apply to go on tours with Shen Yun as part of their practicums to earn school credits. The company covers all expenses. Also, I feel like in the whole course of studying dance, you don't just learn how to dance, but there are so many like lessons and things such as like perseverance or humility that you can use these soft skills you develop here in any area of life. So say in the future, I do want to pursue some other career, I will use everything I learned in this whole process to choose something else. And I'm pretty sure in whatever area that I choose to develop in, these skills will still see me to success. You know, per the New York Times article, there's like, there's severe restrictions on internet use. The implication is kind of that you're not allowed to communicate with the outside world, you're somehow kept isolated from the outside world. I think the article is blurring the lines a bit here, because actually, there's Feitian Institution, and then there's Shen Yun. So in Feitian, there are students who, you know, they're minors, and the school has a responsibility for their growth and development. And actually, one of my colleagues was saying how Feitian is like so much has so much more freedom and space than the Catholic school he was in before, which you know, he wasn't even allowed a dumb phone at that time, you know, there's a school district in Los Angeles, like one of the major school districts, they're doing a phone ban, like it's becoming a thing where people are like, you know, maybe so much information and all this bandwidth is not really good for our kids. That's the school side. And obviously, I'm a professional member of Shen Yun. So yeah, I have the freedom to have a phone, have a computer, you know, it's whatever I wish to do. But yeah, if you're in school, the school wants you to focus on your studies, wants you to develop in a healthy environment and not just, you know, have all this distraction. Yeah, there's a misconception because as members of Shen Yun, we are allowed smartphones and computers and people can have their own families, their own lives. So I feel like that is a very extreme image painted by the article. And I definitely do not recognize it. This is a boarding school and the teachers and the people in charge of the school, we need to like kind of like take care of the kids because their parents are not there with them. So that's our responsibility as Feitian Academy of the Arts and College. Shen Yun, of course, where I have a cell phone, I have internet, I can go into internet right now, like we can totally do that. Like we're not, like not, we don't know anything about the world. We do know, of course. I could read the New York Times if I wanted to. Exactly. So it's like we have access to it, but we need to protect the students, especially the minors that we have. And just, you know, it's an interesting time. A lot of schools right now are instituting, as you suggested, instituting phone bands. There's been this realization, especially with Jonathan Haidt's new book that has come out now about how destructive, you know, the self, these smartphones and social media usage in school is. It's almost like Shen Yun was a bit ahead of the curve here. At least that's what strikes me. So, I mean, you can ask the people, like the people who created Facebook and Google, they don't let their kids to use internet. He draws with the iPad. He doesn't let his kids with iPad. We're trying to follow their example, actually. So to put this into perspective, I heard this funny quote once. It's like no one at the end of their life is going to lay in their deathbed and look back and say, wow, I wish I spent more time on my smartphone. Right. You're going to wish that you spent your life doing the things that matter with the people that matter. Real people. Real people. Right. One of the themes in this article is that when people decide they want to quit or that this isn't for them, that they feel a lot of pressure or coercion to prevent that from happening. Like they're not, this idea that they're not allowed to leave somehow. Any thoughts on this? I left. I mean, I know so many people who, like friends and previous colleagues, who they felt like this career was not cut out for them. And, oh, I don't feel like this is my thing. And the company's like, oh, yeah, go ahead. Pursue whatever you want. You know, what usually happens is, you know, management likes to talk to you about, hey, you know, what are your thoughts? Is there anything we can do for you to maybe make things better? And this was not just one, you know, some of these people, they have been unhappy maybe for a while. And management talked to them multiple times, you know, taking steps back, you know, making concessions, trying to improve their situation. But in the end, they decided, you know, this is not for me. OK, so if you leave, then, you know, then I guess that's it then, you know, but we hope you enjoyed your time with us here. Right. And I think that's the way a responsible management team, you know, should work. I had a good friend of mine and he was a very talented dancer. And, you know, we were chatting and he had talked about his future and, you know, how he wanted to maybe switch to a different field because he was kind of interested in like the sciences. A couple of days later, he grabbed his ID and went to management, told him his thoughts. And the next day he was gone. It was it was that quick and that painless. You know, the artists who work with you, you know, do practice Falun Gong and even the Falun Gong principles talk about how there is that freedom in coming in and out. Right. There is no registration. You don't sign anything. You don't sign a contract. You literally pick up a book, you know, you read the book, you say, hey, I like the teachings and I'm going to start practicing. That's it. And maybe a little while later, my perspective has changed and I want to go not study this anymore. That's your freedom, too. Right. There's never anything that's forced in any way, whether it's the teaching of Falun Gong or in the way that Shen Yun is operated. Falun Gong, a Buddhist-based spiritual practice, was introduced in 1992 and quickly gained popularity in China for its health benefits and teachings on truthfulness, compassion and tolerance. However, when a 1999 survey revealed 70 to 100 million practitioners across China, the CCP launched a campaign against it. Since then, millions of practitioners have been sent to labor camps, many have been tortured, and some have even been killed for their organs. The CCP denies such atrocities even exist, but these have been established beyond a shadow of a doubt by multiple human rights organizations, independent researchers and government bodies. Every year, Shen Yun uses part of its program to depict these persecutions on stage. So there is kind of a Falun Gong message in the show. I mean, that that's kind of the sense I get, which is in this article, it's the idea is that some sort of surreptitious, nefarious message that's being shared. We do have scenes that depict Falun Gong persecution, right? And this is just just telling it like it is. This is the this is facts. Okay, we're not making anything up. We're telling stories that would otherwise never leave China. Mainstream media doesn't talk about it. The CCP certainly is not going to let you know about it. But this is something that's happened to my personal family. You know, my uncle and aunt, they were homeless for 10 years in China. Why? Because of their practice. That was it. They didn't do anything wrong. They didn't. They were just they were ordinary farmers in China. That's all they did. Very simple people. They practiced. The local police found out and came to get them. They were able to run away before the police got them. And for 10 years, they drifted around China. You know, and that was it. You know, why is it not okay to talk about something like that? And why is why would it be strange to have a faith that sort of unites people or makes people stronger? You know, without that, I don't know, you know, what would I be getting? You know, maybe I'm just dancing for myself for my own glory, you know, or maybe for the success of a company, for sure. But there is an extra layer when you when you add, you know, something of a of a much, much deeper, and much more profound element to all of that. I don't understand why there would be so many like negative connotations regarding it. Because, like us personally, we have experienced, like the miracles and the goodness and the harmony that Falun Gong has brought to our community, like, you know, just like looking at our class, you know, when students they buy by truthfulness, compassion, forbearance, like, everyone can work together so well, like, if we get into a conflict, you know, like, okay, maybe like in that moment, like, oh, I think this person's wrong, and that person's wrong. But no, in our community, people take a step back and think maybe, okay, maybe I'm being too harsh, or maybe I wasn't being understanding enough. And naturally, conflicts resolve themselves very, very quickly. And I think this kind of environment is really hard to find. From the beginning, Falun Gong has always been nonviolent. And Shen Yun has always been nonviolent as well. I think we're definitely not trying to hide anything. Because if you just look at it, like, maybe a person goes to Beijing, he opens a banner that says truthfulness, compassion, tolerance, and then he's arrested and taken to jail. If you just look at it from a third person perspective, what is that saying about the people who want to silence these three words? Like, look at these three words, I think they're beautiful words. And these are the principles that we try to hold ourselves to. And now we're told that we are trying to spread something sketchy or dark and shady and mysterious. Well, we're, we're very transparent people. We say on our website, we practice truthfulness, compassion, tolerance. I'm not ashamed to say that I have nothing to hide. And it's not, you know, all the teachings, it's online, you can literally go online and download everything for free. So you know, when everybody around you is following truth, compassion, tolerance, you can imagine how, how different the world can be. We're all united by these principles, but not in a forceful way, more of like a, you know, in a philosophical way, in the way that a faith would unite people, right to share. So, you know, maybe if all the all the media branches were out there talking about the persecution and the actual facts, maybe we wouldn't feel so compelled to, to have elements of that in our show, because we're the only voice that that there is. For us spirituality, it's a very big part of Chinese culture. It's a major part of our history. For thousands of years, like Buddhism, Daoism, it's been a part of Chinese culture. And then I feel like Falun Gong, it's like, it's a continuation. It's the modern day equivalent of our spirituality. So naturally, that's going to be interwoven in our show, because yes, it's a part of who we are. But for people to take that and use it against us, I feel like that's very unfair in a way. Because it's not like we're forcing the audience to adopt our mentality or our mindset or something like that. It's because, yes, we are telling you, we want to show you our history. And this is a part of our history. Mingyi Liu, a former dancer with Shen Yun, now teaching dance in a private arts school, shares that the Chinese regime has been actively working to prevent individuals like him from telling stories of persecution on stage. I've left the company many years ago. But a few years ago, my uncle, he he's in China. And you know, he contacted me, he was like, hey, you know, like, the, our local police department came and looked for me and was like, hey, do you have a do you have a nephew in America? And is he associated with Shen Yun? You know, and so basically, they said that in a way that was, you know, threatening, in the hey, you know, you better tell him to stop. Otherwise, something might happen. Right. So so apparently, even here in the States, you know, I grew up here, I'm being followed. So I'm an American citizen, I'm being followed around. They're keeping a watch on on on on Americans. And yet you have this American media that would basically present a story that takes their side. From day one, we've been met with some sort of adversity, like just last year, our bus tires were slashed. And it wasn't even like a full slash, it was like punctured so that the tires are not popped, but they will, you know, inevitably get ruptured on the freeway. And like, this happens to us a lot. And we got bomb threats last year. My company manager, someone was in created a fake ex account impersonating him in an effort to defame us. And it's the Communist Party who doesn't like what we're doing. I feel like the narrative being crafted right now, definitely should be taken with major grains of salt here. Shen Yun's artistry, guided by the principles of truthfulness, compassion and tolerance, is deeply rooted in traditional Chinese culture. Traditional Chinese culture includes a belief that great art, art that truly inspires and elevates, can only be produced by individuals with strong moral character. Chinese culture is intrinsically, and has always been for thousands of years, spiritual. It's spiritual in its Buddhist traditions, in its Taoist traditions, and the Confucian aspect as well. It's just part of what it is. If you were to separate the spiritual from the culture, there would be nothing left to really discuss. That's just the inequality that is the soul of what Chinese culture has been until, you know, the communist takeover. There's nothing in the show that forces or coerces or even like insists that anybody should practice whatever faith or religion. You have Christians watching our show, you have Buddhists, you have people who are atheists, right? What we're doing is we're telling something that's actually happening today, right? There is this gross injustice, there is this human rights violation. Nobody's talking about it. Okay, and here we are. Falun Gong is in line with, you know, the direction of the show, because it is a spiritual practice. It's bringing back a lot of the spiritual elements that has been missing in society, right? We talk about Buddhas, we talk about Taoists and gods, and, you know, Falun Gong connects with that in a lot of the traditional ways. So as we finish up, you know, what's next? What do you hope happens next? I just hope that, you know, media, media companies have a big responsibility, and I hope that they can be responsible to the American public. And that involves really looking into both sides of the story and really doing their proper due diligence. Because a simple article can actually do quite a lot of damage to people who are otherwise quite innocent. And I do encourage people to really think independently and to kind of look at the context of how things are presented. I wish for the world to, you know, hear another side of the story, like hear our personal experiences. And I wish that they can, you know, have the choice to see it for themselves, like come see the show and decide for themselves really what they think is right. Well, it's such a pleasure to have had you all on. Thank you for having us. The Epoch Times has spoken with dozens more Shen Yun artists, past and present, whose experiences echo the stories you heard today. We've also published several investigative reports that delve into the New York Times articles on Shen Yun and show how often the paper's narratives mirror those of the Chinese regime. We will continue following this story. Stay tuned for more updates. And thank you for watching this special episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm Jan Jekielek.