Why Apple Really Waited 10 Years to Make a Foldable Phone | Interview with John Ternus & Joz

It was like, yes, that's it, right? And like, this is what I want. We're here at Apple Park, and there's a lot to unpack from the iPhone event. And Apple finally entered the foldable market with the iPhone Duo alongside the iPhone 18 Pro. We sat down with Apple's Jony and new CEO, John Ternus, to break down everything from the new nanotextured display and the variable aperture camera to Apple's whole approach to on-device AI. Here's the breakdown. So there was a lot of products announced at the Apple event yesterday, but I think the one that probably got the most attention is the iPhone Duo because it's Apple's first foldable phone. I think John and Jony, I think for you, what do you feel like was the eureka moment for Apple to say, now is the time for us to release a foldable phone and get something out there? Because obviously you're not the first to this category. You're able to study it, but what makes the Duo different? And maybe for each of you, what was that eureka moment where you're like, we're ready? The market is ready for an Apple foldable phone. I think for us, it's always about when do we feel like we have a product idea that meets meets our bar right meets our bar for quality and durability but also for design and and and what i think is particularly amazing about the duo is it's such a good example of hardware and software coming together to make something really special um and it was it was like a green field of opportunity for us because there was opportunity to rethink so many different things and i think you see that in the hardware and you see that in the software and the design and um yeah it all kind of came together and felt like it was the right product yeah i mean what we said in the keynote was really the way we talked internally i mean look the concept's simple sure like you want a big display and you want to be able to fold it and put in your pocket uh but as john talked about in the keynote what we saw others doing wasn't particularly inspiring right and so and as you know look our history has never been to rush into something with something half-baked sure and we're amazed you know i'm constantly amazed i work with such incredible engineers and designers that they took it upon how do we do this right how do we do this in an apple sort of way and to me that was really kind of twofold no pun intended uh one was changing that aspect ratio right instead of having the twofold you know as John talked about awkwardly stuck together create this big square and this kind of awkward big bulky product that wasn't really designed for the way you want to use a phone having the different aspect ratio that was much more made for us and then which i think everybody really got yesterday and seeing the product the amount of work that our software teams did from both the design side and execution side that just says this is unlike any phone you know any foldable that's out there because the experience is so poor you know and this is like this feels like what apple does and uh yeah it's amazing and obviously you guys not first to market this is this is a foldable industry it's been around for almost a decade but i'm kind of curious about for you where you you really sort of had that that understanding that the thing that was going to make the critical difference the thing that people talk the most about when it comes to foldables is the crease and you guys came up with this nano texture and as far as i know no one else has that people have tried different things but what was the thinking behind that where did that sort of like come together saying you know we have this product we have this category people talking about this thing what is the sort of simple yet natural solution i think i mean the entire approach to the display and the hinge was was one of it's kind of traditional apple what we do we get into it we go to first principles we start thinking how can we make this great you You design it as a complete system. So it's this incredibly complex hinge that's built to maximize flatness. This really unique display stack up. We have glass on both sides of the OLED so that it makes it more durable and flatter. And then the nanotexture, you know, people love the nanotexture on iPad and on MacBook Pros. And we kind of came up with an entirely new way of making that. Because what's interesting is, you know, the inner display, that front top surface, unlike a traditional phone, isn't a glass surface. It's a polymer surface. And I think if you've seen what's been out there, not only is it just kind of cheap-feeling plastic surfaces, they don't feel good to touch, they're kind of wavy, wrinkly, all that sort of thing. And the nanotexture just wipes that all out. It's beautifully flat. It feels amazing to touch, and it's incredibly durable. First time you saw that, what did you think? What did you feel? It was like, yes, that's it. This is what happens. We always know we're on the right track when we get that first design model or prototype. You go, oh, this is it, right? and like this is what i want and uh and then once we have that then it's like okay how do we go make it happen and make it real and i will say what i'm super proud of kept it secret yes that was one that we we put the uh the extra security on it right we didn't talk about it to anybody we had a very funny code name which i won't even repeat you know that had nothing to do with it uh but we we said we're going to keep this one extra secret because look people knew through leaks that we were working on a foldable unfortunately they got the aspect ratio and a lot of coincidental instances of people finding that an interesting aspect ratio uh and this is one we said okay we're gonna we're gonna really keep this one locked down and and it worked worked yeah what about on the software side I think one of the things that's most ambitious and I think a little bit of a risk is just like reimagining iOS for a foldable phone like so putting all the controls on the right hand side yeah for example so what was the decision making behind that and like how is the software experience different on a foldable phone versus a regular slab phone well I think I think that's what I was saying before about the the kind of the joy of having something completely new and when we started as John said we started with this you're going to build you know a foldable phone you want that unfolded state to be the best thing it can possibly be and obviously we've been building experiences like that with iPad for a long time we knew what we wanted then you get this sort of passport shape. And very quickly, the software team said, you know, we can move the controls over to the right side and recover all of that kind of vertical space that you want. And then it turns out to be an incredibly intuitive control system because it's there under your right thumb when it's closed. You open it up, it's there under your right thumb again. So I think that's one of the biggest things with iOS is you're going to have two screens. How do you make sure that it feels continuous. And, you know, the idea of building the aspect ratio, it's, you know, consistent between the inner and outer. So everything scales proportionately. And then that allows the software team to really build things that map really well from the outer screen to the inner screen. A quick follow-up on that, just because I'm an avid Procreate user. And so we have two versions of Procreate. We have one for the phone, a pocket Procreate, and then we have one for the tablet here's a device which is both the phone and ultimately it opens to a tablet can you give me any sense of like for an app like that does the experience transform more into a tablet experience on the inside or does it some stay in some hybrid state one of the things that I love and John just said it is we have an incredible iPad experience as you know those other tablets are giant phones right and we've always had an iPadOS experience, an iPad experience that is built around this larger canvas and so as John said, we're bringing our expertise to our apps on that, but so are our developers, uh one of the things that I mean, you saw some of the, you know, we we went out a little bit broader than we might normally in in reaching out, uh to our third party developers to have them do some work as to how are they going to take advantage of this, right? and certainly they were combining their experiences and their experiences in their apps that are Sometimes it's the iPhone. And then when you open it into the broad, it feels more like they've done with the iPad. And I think it's just brilliant. You saw some of the work. I mean, it's amazing. And what's really cool, it didn't take them that long. You know, this wasn't like, oh my God, we got to go through this incredible, you know, starting from scratch because they have such great iPhone experience. They have iPad experience. You already had so many APIs that allowed you to change from different sizes and aspects, you know, so easily. And then we've extended it with some new APIs for, for I was going to call it the code name for the Duo, you know, they were able to, you know, we always have to convert now to talking real the work was really good really fast I mean you saw I mean the Netflix app alone is just, it's really cool, it's so cool, so if someone has an iPad app or iPad mini app in particular, is it any easier for them to quote-unquote port their apps over to the Duo experience or is it just a little bit different? It is actually, yeah, I'm sorry, yeah And partly because they've imagined that already. How do they treat their apps when it's in this sort of size and aspect? So that's a huge benefit. And again, that's a benefit we have with having a couple million iPad apps, whereas, again, on the other side, it is basically how do you make their phone apps bigger. And so, yeah, it's an advantage to start with. But I think the kind of excitement and enthusiasm that our internal developers had to exploring how can they make this experience really great, I think our developers are going to feel the same thing. And we have obviously so many incredible developers. I'm super excited to see what the Procreate folks do. They are amazing, and I'm sure they'll do something great. Do you think the fact that the phone is not coming out until October gives you a little bit of an advantage because then developers have a little bit more time? So like Slack was mentioned as an example yesterday, where it's not just like a blown-up phone app. It'll be like dual pane. That's a huge thing for us. again that's why we went so out of our way with iPad development both internally and with our third parties we didn't want iPad to feel like a big phone right and that's exactly what android tablets felt like just felt like big android phones and same thing applies here we don't want it to just feel like that we just took that extra space and made it bigger sometimes that's okay that makes sense but it's like how do you take more advantage of this larger canvas and our tools help us you know help developers do that the enthusiasm we had no problem getting anybody to come in and want to do this uh that was a a lot of enthusiasm and then their enthusiasm once they were working on it you see it in the work it's like they were like this is so cool yeah so so obviously uh pencil support uh which is kind of a great an unwritten rule maybe the iPhone doesn't need a pencil or a stylus i mean we we could use our fingers or or sort of a dumb one and then of course the iPad came along it's a whole different experience and you have a pencil but now we have the first iPhone that supports Pencil. Like, what does it feel like to break that rule, um, and then what does that mean for future iPhones? Well, you know, we're never going to talk about future iPhone. I had to try but look, I've never really thought of it as a rule. We started with iPad, there was no Apple Pencil, right? And we and we proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that a touch interface on a, on you know, an iPad can be an amazingly capable and productive thing but then there's things you can do with a Pencil on that larger screen that are really powerful and capable, and I think we saw that opportunity here. iPhone Duo works beautifully without a Pencil. You don't need a Pencil, but I think some people are gonna, uh, are gonna like it and it's gonna be fun. I mean, it's called iPhone Duo for a reason. It is like two products, right? It is an i it's like your iPhone, your familiar experience that you're used to and open it up to this massive display and it's a whole new experience a whole new world and Pencil, we thought made a lot of sense for that. So you're talking about two products and the value proposition of having those two in one. This is the first iPhone that crosses that, or almost crosses that $2,000 threshold. So what do you think about the value proposition and how you're going to be able to sort of sell this to early adopters? Obviously, they're probably going to love it. But a lot of people might question the price and just talk about that a little bit in terms of like what you're getting for the money. Look, we're always focused on obviously building cool things that people love but also are really good value right and this is an incredibly like complex and well engineered device, um, yes, it's more expensive than than the other phones but we think it's a great value, and I think, um, look, iPhone 18 Pro and Pro Max are incredible. These are the best Pro phones we have ever made and they're going to be the exact right device for a lot of our customers some folks are going to say you know what i think the duo is right for me that's good too so we don't I mean, so far, the response suggests, like, a lot of people are really excited about it, and that's great. But it's one of the great things about our line now is that there's kind of different devices for different people's priorities. Right. I mean, you still have the 17E on sale, but we didn't get a new 18E. So we've got that sort of chasm between, you know, what people—you didn't give the new thing for the affordability crowd. And just curious, I don't know if you can speak to this. was that intentional to sort of leave the 18 out of this mix right now what you was it an accident well i mean there's just there's some it's a first it's a first and so this was the day to celebrate these new products and and by the way i mean it's it's probably worth i don't know what's in your question list but the the pro and pro max are phenomenal oh we want to we want to talk about Okay, good. Because I look at those products as, man, how do you really feed a 17 pro steroids and take not just an incremental improvement on each of these areas, but as John talked about in the keynote, the camera, the intelligence, the performance, and the battery life are taking massive year-on-year improvements on top of what was already massive improvements the year before. I mean, if you're on a 16 or something older, it's like, this is like, it's another world, you know, as far as what we delivered here. And we're pretty excited about that. The standout feature for me on the Pro and the Pro Max is the variable aperture lens. And I think like for everyday consumers, they might not know the benefits. Like now that I know how it works, I get the sense that there's benefits even in auto mode. You don't necessarily, but you do have the creative control to change the aperture if you want. So can you guys just like talk through the benefits for just everyday people who are looking to upgrade their phone? And maybe they're not on like an iPhone 14 Pro Max, for example. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, variable aperture is an amazing kind of technology, especially for an iPhone. It's this tiny little thing with these tiny little blades, right? There's six of them in there and they can open and contract. And when you open the aperture, you let in more light. So you end up with kind of better low light photography. You can bring in more light. As you contract and kind of stop down the aperture, you can create a greater depth of field. So when you're taking a group shot, you know, the ability to make sure that the person in front is in focus and the person in back is in focus is really powerful. What's amazing about what the team has done here is, as you said, normal everyday photographers, all that's happening automatically, right? There's, you know, the phone is figuring out what should the aperture be just right for this shot, sets it. but then we have these pro controls now where someone who really understands photography and really loves photography they can get in there and they can manually adjust the aperture and the shutter speed even the uh the focus right and and all of these things that that our real pro photographers love and i think are really going to enjoy so it's kind of the best of both worlds you can choose not to think about it or you can go really deep into it yeah it was the right time to introduce the pro tools you know to have the pro controls really with that for the photography yeah it's really no accident right they really felt like they all went together i am just curious on on sort of the because it's moving parts within like physical mood and delicate i would imagine moving parts uh within it was there anything special done to protect it does it float in any kind of space you know what what might you do to give people because there's one comment i have seen on social media oh great a moving moving pieces in my iPhone that i'm going to drop Well, to be fair, there always were moving pieces in the iPhone from a focal adjustment standpoint or image sensor stabilization. But yes, these are more components. But look, this is what we do, right? We have an incredible engineering team. A lot of work goes into it. Big part, as always, when you're dealing with these kinds of things is material selection and finding the right material that has the right stiffness and strength. and and obviously all that that you guys have seen examples of this over the years all the work we do in reliability testing to make sure that things are going to be just as good you know many years down the road as they are on day one and and all of that went in to make this possible yeah it's probably john will be too humble to say it the product quality that we have is really there's nobody in the industry close to what we have and and this is really accelerated during the time that John has started leading the hardware organization that that became such an incredible part of designing for that reliability and and as well as testing for it it's just off the charts I mean you guys have you know I know you've told good stories about when you make 10,000 or something versus you know a couple hundred million of it how important that is but it's just it's just unbelievable I mean just and you guys probably experience it how often do you have an iPhone fail it just right it's just the the amount of work that these guys do and what he's had his organization do. It's just phenomenal. Well, it's an amazing team, and everyone, it's such a tremendous source of pride to build things that last, right? Very quick follow-up question on that. When that Aperture is built, is it built by hand or robot? That's for us to know. That's with the code name. Last question for me on the iPhone is that I think the A20 Pro chip is raising a lot of eyebrows because it's the first two nanometer chip in a phone, and but i think what you guys talk about is not necessarily speeds and fees although obviously it's important got a lot of those yeah but about like enabling new experiences so for example with the duo the fact that it knows when everyone is ready to take that photo and takes it automatically for you what are some examples of like how it actually improves everyday life for and enabling new experiences that just weren't possible before yeah well i mean you know there's certainly there's the kind of compute heavy things um ai is one example so a lot of the things we can do with computational photography or or on-device AI benefit greatly from this extra performance gaming's another one I mean 40% increase year over year in graphics performance that's huge that doesn't come around very often and and then you know that paired with the new vapor chamber is just this big big step which which we're really excited about so I think people are going to feel it uh in in a lot of those use cases um and I think people are going to be you know amazed at what you can do on on a phone yeah 40% improvement in sustained performance too on top of again what was already a big leap last year and you put this on top of it so again this thing is on steroids it's just unbelievably amazing uh devices uh with the pro and pro max and uh and what's also nice to look you know iphones one of the benefits we have uh over the other guys is they retain their value right and that's how that's how a part of this works right so many people now have learned that they can sell or trade in you know their iphone it's worth a lot you know and it makes the next one you know much more affordable well that happens because of the work these guys do right in that making sure the reliability is there software updates are there and performance is there right because you want it to be fast not just today but you want it to be fast three years down the road four years down the road and something like the H20 Pro is a monster it's going to be fast for years to come one battery too i don't know if you caught that in the event but the 18 Pro battery is better than the 17 Pro Max. 17 Pro Max was an incredible battery life, right? I mean, and then the 18 Pro Max is just like off the charts. So it's... It actually broke like our records and like the 17 Pro Max. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm really curious to see how it does in our tests. Yeah, you're going to need a new test. Maybe, right. Pump up the brightness maybe. Between the crease solution on the Duo and the camera updates on the iPhone 18 Pro, Apple's clearly taking a very specific approach to its hardware. And if you want to see what John Ternus has to say about stepping into the role of Apple CEO and where they're taking AI, click the video on screen right now to see the rest of our interview on TechRadar. How was yesterday for you? Because obviously it's a different... It was amazing. Yeah. I mean, these days are always amazing, right? Like launch days are why we do what we do. Yesterday was a particularly fun one.