This Woman Makes BIG Money With a Camera - with Lyndsay Hannah in Boston

It was darker than I anticipated. Oh my god, that I really messed that up. There's so many people who think that nobody can make any money anymore with a camera. This past year, I grossed um a like, how would you like to make a very good living as a full-time family baby and alopment photographer? Well, Lindsay Hannah from Boston has cracked the code in full-time photography. She's joining me today from Boston. It's great to have you on the show, Lindsay. Hi, Tim. Thanks for having me. So, you have an amazing website. You have an amazing business that is making you a a very good living. And we're going to get into some of the numbers in just a little bit. You take photos in alopments, in family, in baby, and kind of everything in between. Can you just tell me at the very start like how did you get that start and what kind of challenges did you have to overcome because it seems to a lot of people that it would be really difficult to start out as a paid photographer. It definitely was. Um so my background is in sales, special event sales actually. So before I had kids, I worked full-time um for event venues selling mostly high-end weddings. And then once I had kids, it kind of I didn't feel like I wanted to go back to the nineto-five in an office job. So, photography had always been a hobby for me. Um, I mostly did landscape, travel, nature, photography. Um, and had never photographed people before, but when I had my first son, who's now 11, um, he kind of became my first practice subject. and I realized that I really do enjoy capturing families and emotions and just people in various stages of life. So I started my business. The the nice thing I think about becoming a photographer um is in recent years with the rise of digital photography, the entry to the barrier to entry is very low to becoming a photographer. You know, you can get an entry-level DSLR for 500 bucks with a kit lens. Anyone theoretically could become a photographer. I think what's hard is that because of that the market is extremely saturated. So standing out and presenting yourself in a professional manner to get clients to hire you is a challenge. Um I think I had the ability to grow slowly. Um I was not expecting to come out of the gate year one and make $100,000. It's just not realistic. I think I began very low, like most people do, charging $75, I think, is what I started at, for families that I knew through mom's groups with um that I had met from having a baby myself. Um and then from there, referrals grew and I raised my prices each year and I learned how to create a website, how to, you know, capitalize on SEO, how to get my business name out there, and year after year, I've seen growth and I'm year 11 now. So, it definitely takes time, but if you work hard to do all the things that they recommend, SEO and build your mailing list and, you know, all the things that will kind of futureproof your business, it it can happen. Yeah. So, in the very beginning when you were uh starting to take those $75 sessions, y um was that kind of scary for your very first sessions? Like, was it difficult to think about, oh no, what if I get the camera settings wrong? And uh did you did you ever feel that maybe you weren't able to call yourself a photographer at the very very beginning? Oh, absolutely. Um I think I still thought of it as my hobby that I made a little money from in the beginning. Um I remember being petrified to go to my first session because the thing about working with families is that kids are extremely unpredictable. So, you might go to one and have, you know, an a not yet mobile, happy baby who smiles at you and you're like, "Okay, I've got this. That was awesome. I could do this with everyone." And then you go to the next one and it's a 2-year-old who's having a meltdown or running away and doesn't want to be anywhere near his parents. And you have to figure out how to adapt on the fly. Um, and I remember walking away being like, "Oh my gosh, I don't think I got anything." You know, after those first few sessions. Yeah. Did you ever feel uh any sense of like imposttor syndrome like these people are paying me as a professional photographer but deep down inside I don't feel like that yet? Absolutely. Um I think I think anybody starting something new or branching out to something you've never done before is going to feel like an imposttor until it becomes something that you is ingrained in you and and becomes second nature. But it's funny, you know, in hindsight, the amount that I was charging, the expectations were pretty low in the beginning, but when you're in it, it doesn't feel like that. It feels like they're paying you money and you have to deliver. So, I remember the pressure feeling really high when the reality is that, you know, that was a basically an entry- level session that I think I could have just clicked the shutter and people would have been happy with it at that price point. Yeah. So, at the very beginning, were camera settings intimidating for you? And then did you develop some sort of a workflow to help you simplify the camera settings and the complicated stuff? Absolutely. Um, I had taken it upon myself to not do any sessions until I learned uh manual because I just felt like it was too hard to go in. Um, I remember practicing on my my son in the beginning and I think I was using like AV mode which is I can't even remember aperture priority or something. Yes, thank you. Um, but it would change, you know, suddenly the shutter speed to too slow for him like waving his arms around and I was like, "Oh my god, I can't I can't have that happening during a session." So, I forced myself to learn manual. Um, and then learned, you know, over time and over practice that if kids are running around, you really can't be below one over 400 or else you will get motion blur. Um, so it was like little tidbits like that, but mostly I learned by making mistakes. You know, at a session I would have it was darker than I anticipated and I would go too low and I would come home and be like, "Oh my god, I really messed that up." Uh, so yes, I think there was a lot of um struggling to figure out settings in the beginning. So scary in the beginning. Is it is it scary now? No. I mean, I will say that I still sometimes get anxiety going in if it's a brand new client, but I don't know because like I said, families are unpredictable. You really never know what you're going to get when you walk in. Um, especially doing brand and newborn sessions. I don't have a studio. So, I'm on location. So, I'm going into their offices, their homes, and every home is so different. The light is different, the amount of clutter is different, the style is different. You really have to, I think, know your settings like the back of your hand, know how to use off camera flash, know how to have all the tools at your disposal to be able to make any situation work. So, we know about how your business, what it looked like in the very beginning. What does it look like now? What has it evolved into? Like, who do you photograph the most? And what do you charge for some of your sessions? was like, "How has this changed here?" Sure. I mean, in the beginning, I think that first year, I think I made $6,000. And it was very much I was a stay-at-home mom with my, you know, toddler. And it was something that I did kind of as a side job, um, on the weekends or evenings after my husband came home from work. Um, and it has evolved over the years into very much a full-time job. Um, you know, my kids are are older now, so they're all three in school full-time, but I work pretty much from the moment that they leave until the moment they get home. And still sometimes nights and weekends because of golden hour sessions with families. Um, I would say I probably put in 35 to 40 hours a week, sometimes more in the busiest season. Um, but that's a combination of, you know, on location shooting, emailing clients, phone calls, um, traveling to sessions. So, it's really kind of a combination of a whole bunch of things. Um, my schedule now, I shoot between 225 and 240 clients a year. Um, but 90% of that because of how seasonal we are happens between like this week in April and the end of November. Um, so squishing all that in means that it's a very busy busy season. Um, and then I mostly use December, January, February, March, and very early April to catch up on all the backend stuff that businesses require. So, it's cyclical, but I like it. It gives, you know, your brain different things to focus on. So, you said that in your very first year, you did around $6,000 in sales. What's been your best year? Uh, this past year, I grossed um uh like 3,000 shy of 300,000. That's absolutely awesome. So there are so many people who think that uh because the the the playing field is so competitive that nobody can make any money anymore with a camera. But what would you say to someone who has that belief? I think that that's wrong. Um I you know people talk a lot about how saturated the field is but there yes there are a lot of photographers but there are a lot also a lot of people. I mean I live outside Boston. There's not, if you think about the reality of how many clients each photographer needs to be able to fill their calendar, I have a higher volume, but most people are looking for a hundred clients. There are not one every 100 people of photographers in Metro Boston. There are so many more people. There are plenty of clients for everyone. And I think the goal is just to photograph enough that you define a style and are able to set yourself apart from the competition. So, what has the business done for your life? Would you say I know that you work very hard and you're you're almost working 40 hours a week, but has it given you a sense of of freedom, including financial freedom? Oh, yes. Um, I mean, back when I chose to leave my full-time sales and marketing job, uh, I mean, we were we were scraping by and living in a tiny apartment, and I don't think I ever could have anticipated, again, I started the business kind of thinking like it would be like a side thing to make a little bit of extra money while I was home with my kids. Um, and I never imagined that it would snowball into this, and it has given so much financial financial freedom, but also schedule freedom. That's I think the best part about being an entrepreneur. I can schedule things around what works for my kids' lives, my family's lives, what works for me. Um I am my own boss and I am in charge of my schedule and that is hands down the best part. So what about your clients? So you take photos during uh very important events in the lives of your clients. What kind of responses and reactions do you get when those clients see the pictures that you've created for them? So, this is funny. In the family photography world, it's kind of a uh running joke that you would think that we would get tons of responses, but in today's digital world, when you are delivering galleries digitally, sometimes you hear nothing, which doesn't necessarily mean the client is upset. They'll come back year after year. Um, but sometimes I think the things that keep us going as family photographers is getting those emails that says, you know, I just looked at the slideshow in the back of a cab and I am just crying back here. Everything, you know, anytime someone tells me that the photos made them cry or when they say that I just captured their child's personality perfectly or I memorialized their wedding day and it felt like they were reliving it. I mean, any of those comments, that's always the goal. I want them to look at the photos and feel something, feel connected to that moment in time. And when you get some really positive feedback about your photos, how does that make you feel? Oh, it makes me feel it's it's like a photography high. You feel just like everything that you intended to do happened and it's a it's a big feeling of success for sure. So do you feel that uh you're not just conducting a normal business, you're actually helping people by giving them something that really has a beneficial and positive kind of impact on their lives? Oh, absolutely. Um, even, you know, going back to family photography specifically, there's so many studies out that say that kids seeing their own images on their wall just gives them a sense of pride and a sense of comfort and family. And I just went to a client who's been with me, they have three kids now, and I met them at the newborn session for their oldest child. Um, and we did a photo session in their home, and all over their wall, they had all the years, like six years worth of family photos printed everywhere. and the kids, you know, pointed out their favorites and they showed me and it's really like creating a legacy of their life for these people to watch it as their family grows and changes. So really what you're saying there is that it's not just like a photo session with one client is not just a oneandone. You get them to come back for additional sessions like how many what's what's your record for the number of photo most photo sessions for one client? Um, I mean I have some one client I was just looking back at this with the little helpful time hop app, but I have one client who has been with me for 10 years. So they are on their 10th year of photography with me, which is amazing. But I would say generally um my calendar is 75% repeat clients. So people who are coming back year after year after year. Um, and I have a handful of clients who come back twice a year, especially when their kids are young and changing so quickly. Um, there's a huge difference between a newborn and a six-month-old and a one-year-old. So, a lot of people like to capture those milestones all along the way. Um, I have alopement clients who've come back when they had their baby um to continue sort of photography throughout as their family continues to grow and change. Um, so yeah, I think there's probably some clients who have done 15 to 18 photo sessions with me at this point. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. So, what kind of package prices do you have for, let's say, for a family shoot or for a baby shoot? What do you charge? Uh, my family session for a 1-hour family session is $1,550. Um, for a newborn session is $1,650. Um, alopments are 2,000. And so, for a family session at 1550, the customer will get, I read from your website, 65 images. So, are are they choosing those 65 from an even bigger batch or you've chosen the 65? I do the selecting. Um, so I'll call them down, pick my favorites. Um, I'll be honest, it's probably more like a hundred per gallery. For lifestyle photography, you're really, it's fast-paced. You're getting all the in between moments. So, there's a lot of um, it's a little bit different than portrait photography where you would get, you know, 10 posed portraits. Um, so the galleries are do tend to be a little bit bigger. So, I would say my average is around 100. Um, that includes black and white conversions and that's my they're all of my choosing. And what platform do you use to to deliver those images or even to show them a gallery that they can choose from? I use PikTime. Um, it's a gallery delivery service that has uh the ability to create slideshows to music, which I love to do for my clients so they can watch, you know, a visual diary of the session that we had together. Um, and then it also delivers the gallery that they can download web res and full resolution from. Tell me a little bit about your post-processing, your retouching. Do you use Lightroom Classic for that? And do you kind of have a a go-to workflow for, let's just say, for outdoor photos? What do you what are kind of the main adjustments that you make? So, when I get home, I'll upload my session. I usually um because my sessions are super active, I sometimes have between 800 and a,000 photos to go through that I'm calling down, especially when there's an 18-month old toddler and a three-year-old boy, and they're, you know, sessions can be very active. Um, so I'll call them down to my favorites, pull them into Lightroom Classic. Um, I now use Imagine. Um, I'm not, are you familiar with them? No, I'm not. So, they're an AI editing program that I have trained with my own presets. So, I usually adjust a little bit of color adjustment, contrast, um, white balance, and Imagine is trained to do that for me now. So, I'll download my images into a collection in Lightroom Classic, and then imagine will go through and just apply those base uh, my base preferences to each image. um it takes about three minutes and then I download those edits back to Lightroom and then I'll go in one by one making sure that I straighten horizons and do any um masking that I need to do to brighten subjects faces or anything like that. Um I sometimes go into Photoshop if I'm doing object removal or fixing some hair um anything like that. And then I also use if I'm doing head shot, um I'll use AOT too, which is um AI skin retouching. What do your customers love the most about what you do and what you offer? That's a great question. Um I think I most often get complimented that I'm extremely organized, communicative, and um just easy to work with. I think people are so busy nowadays, especially in our area. Most of my clients, both parents, have full-time jobs. They have multiple kids. They have just busy lives with everything going on. So, I think as easy and as uncomplicated as I can make it for them, the better. Um, I want them to be able to book me, feel confident that I am going to do everything that needs to be done, that I'm going to make sure the weather is great. I'm gonna adjust it if it needs to be and that they don't really have to worry about anything except for showing up and hanging out with their family. So, when we just kind of revisit those those early early photo shoots, the $75 ones, was there a moment What was the moment when you kind of knew, okay, I'm really on to something here. I'm I'm really going to go for this. I think I just I fell in love with it right away. I went to a photo session and it was like something clicked in my brain that I could, you know, be the mom that I wanted to be at home while my kids were young, but then also use a different part of my brain, uh, business, the business mind of, you know, my brain, the creativ creativity. It allowed me to kind of step outside and be something else, be a business owner, be, you know, a family photographer. and I fell in love with it right away. I would say a little bit about camera settings. You mentioned that shutter speed of uh 1 over 400 as being kind of a minimum so that you freeze any any action. Um can you tell me a little bit about what your go-to camera settings are for outdoor photography? And and do you use flash? Um I do not use flash outside. Um outside I my happy place is usually between 2.2 two and 2.5 um for aperture. Um I that seems wide open to a lot of people when you're dealing with groups, but I'm very um intentional about where that focus is is um landing. And a lot of times I'm not going for a straight-on portrait of everybody looking at me. If I was, I'd probably stop down. Um, but because I'm looking for a moment and a lot of times it's families like turned in and focused on each other. Um, I like to shoot a little bit more wide open so I can get some creamy bokeh and just the beauty of golden hour which is when I'm usually doing photography. Um, one over 400 is definitely the minimum, but my preference is more like one over 800 because if I have parents throwing kids in the air or twirling them around or kids running at me, um, you really do have to have it pretty high to freeze motion and not get motion blur. Um, luckily I shoot with Sony, which handles ISO really well. So, um I would say usually outside I'm below 1,000, but as we get like later and later in the evening, it'll sometimes go up to, you know, 1,600 to 2,000. And are you using auto ISO or you're locking? No, I change it myself. Okay. And are you looking at your histogram as you're going through the photo shoot? So, I used to look at my histogram, but because I have the digital um viewfinder now, I just it shows me what the exposure is. So, I don't look at the histogram as much now that I have uh a mirrorless. Okay. And what about lenses? What what's your for outdoor family photography? What's your go-to lens? So, I shoot with a dual harness, so I always have two cameras on me at all times. Um my one side has a 28 to 70 on it and my other one has an 85. And if you were giving a recommendation to someone who was just starting out and they only had the finances to buy one lens for outdoor family photography, what would what would you recommend? If they were doing solely outside and they only could buy one, I think honestly I would do what I started with, which is a 50. And I have a lovehate relationship with the 50. It's kind of a jack of all trades, master of none. So it's not my favorite for wide angle. It's not my favorite for portraits, but if you could only have one, that's what I would go with because you can step back and get wide and you can get a nice creamy bokeh from it. Okay, awesome. Now, what about kids? You've mentioned them a fair bit. Um, I I've seen a lot of family photo shoots where little kids are just being nasty little things. Oh, yeah. How How do you as the photographer uh keep kids engaged and and even make them smile? Honestly, it's a lot of play. Um, I think that the people think who don't do lifestyle family photography that there's some magic to come in and like have a kid sit quietly on a lap and be all snuggly with their mom for an hour. And that's just not the reality. A lot of times it's me being like, "Okay, you go over there." And then run as fast as you can and try to squish mommy with your butt and they'll run over and, you know, jump onto them. And then you have to be ready to get that one moment because it only you only need a millisecond of a great pose. Um, and it's all about working together to see what kids want. Some kids are really snuggly. Some kids need to run and jump and be spun and have funny games and for me to make poop jokes to make them laugh. Um, every kid is a little bit different, but mainly I use activity. You know, if a kid doesn't want to sit, okay, we pivot and we're gonna walk together in a line and you swing the kid while you walk to keep them interested. Um, I think it's absolutely fruitless to just continue to try to get something that is not working for the kid. You have to, I think, adapt and move around. And it's also an education piece with your clients beforehand. Like we're if your 2-year-old doesn't want to sit and snuggle, you might not get sitting and snuggling photos, but that is a snapshot of what your child's personality is right now. We have to work. If you want beautiful photos of your family having fun together and your child showing genuine happy emotions, we have to do what makes them happy. Yeah, absolutely. I can tell that you have a lot of experience here in making kids in making kids cooperate. And what about focus? You mentioned having a kid that's running towards mom and maybe that focus distance is changing really quickly. Are you using a single point focus or the multif focus and what about back button focus? What do you do? I am uh so Sony has eyetracking which is really helpful. I used to shoot Canon before um and I did use single point and toggle um which was harder to nab focus than it is with um eye tracking with Sony. So, I definitely have owe a lot of my really great focus to Sony because their eyetracking is phenomenal. Um, but yes, I use single point and I do toggle. I like that eye tracking and that's that's one of the tricks that wildlife photographers use, especially for birds that are flying in the air and it's amazing that that technology can actually grab the eye of a flying bird. So, you're using that to great effect with flying kids. With flying kids, yes. Um, what about upsells? So, you mentioned that you charge $1,550 for a standard family photo shoot and they get I think it was 65 images. Are there any upsells? Is there anything you can do to increase the average order value? So, I use uh Pick Time, which has the ability to do um a shop, too. So, I work with Miller's Print Lab um and I have a whole bunch of products that people can buy after the shoot. They do receive a print release. Um, but the way I phrase it is that this is a professional print lab that I am calibrated with. Like I can absolutely guarantee the quality of these prints. So, a lot of my clients will do an album which I custom design for them, a framed print or even just loose prints through me. Um, during the holiday season too, I'll add in, you know, picture ornaments, uh, car greeting cards, all sorts of things to upsell, um, products throughout the store. What is the biggest sales month that you've ever had? October is peak foliage season here. People are super into foliage if you know anything about New England. Um so you have peak foliage month and then peak I want my family's Christmas card month. So um in October I in the past I've had 35 sessions in the one month of October. So that is definitely the peak revenue month every year. And and what how much was your peak revenue month? I feel like it last year it was like 60 grand just in that one month. Amazing. That's absolutely incredible chart thing. That's incredible. I'm I'm leaving. It goes in a deep dive in December. But that's okay. You get a seasonal. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like it's harvest season, right? It's that's when we learn to work hard. You kind of Yep. You pile it in when it comes and then use it to balance out the slow times. What about customers? How do you get your customers? I would say um for the ones that are not repeat customers or referrals for my current um customers, most people come from Google. I do have very good SEO. Um I'm usually number one for family keywords. If you search in the Boston area um so that's definitely where most of my focus lies and make ensuring that all of my targeted keywords have good SEO. Have you ever tried paid ads? I actually just tried them this year. Yes. Um but this was the first year that I ever um did delve into paid ads. And do you think they work for you? You know, I feel like it's too new to say. Um I took a couple courses on it and they really say that you need 3 months for Google to really learn your target customer and be able to accurately put those ads in front of the people who are going to then turn into customers. Um are they getting traction? Absolutely. I'm definitely getting traffic. Um, but I feel like I'm still in the learning phase as far as them learning my preferences and my client's preferences. Uh, what about the actual uh purchasing point? How do you get a client to actually sign up? And I'm talking about a new client who you who is not a repeat. Um, do they make an inquiry on your website and then do you email them uh a package that has kind of sales salesy type copy in it? I am a big proponent of having the price being very transparent with prices on your website. Um, that's another one of I think goes back to me feeling like people want it to be easy. If I was searching for a photographer and they did not have pricing listed, I'd just move on to the next person because it's too much work. Um, there was a lot of teaching out there that says you have to get clients on the phone. I know some people do that. I also don't require that because not everyone has time during the day or has a job that allows them to get onto the phone. We are a huge medical community around here and I would say a large portion of my clients are doctors and they don't have normal 9 toive desk jobs where they might be able to take a lunch and call me, you know, to chat about it. So I the process is yes they they submit an inquiry on my website and then I get notified of that and then I email them. Um my inquiry form asks a few questions so that I feel like I can develop a little bit of a rapport with them like who's joining us like what age are your kids? Where are you from? Um usually enough for me to pull something out and be you know be able to develop a really comfortable chatty email with them. um they've already seen the prices, but I direct them back to the website as to where to find them just in case they weren't able to find them um when they submitted their inquiry. And then I ask them if they'd like to jump on a call to chat about options or uh we can stick with email if that works better for them, too. And then we go from there. So, if you were just starting out all over again, Yeah. and knowing now what you know uh but if you had no reputation and no business name what would you do as the fastest way to start earning some income? So that's an interesting question. So I think there's one of two ways that you could start. You could either do what I did which is start out right away charging a very nominal amount while you get experience. The other option is to do model calls which are free um to build a portfolio until you feel confident to come out of the gate charging more profitably. Um for me in my financial situation at the time, every little bit helped. So me charging a little amount helped our family. But I think had I been in a different financial situation, I think it would have been easier to I'm gonna say do 20 model calls to develop a portfolio that I felt confident and good about. Um, and then come out of the gate charging more. Because what happens is when you come out of the gate charging $75, the clientele that are going to pay $75 to a or a photo shoot is not the clientele that is going to then is not who's with me now paying 50 and50 people. not because they can't afford it, but because some people value photography and some people don't. Um, some people place the value at 75. Very different people place the value over $1,000. So, I think if I had started out closer to where I wanted to be, the likelihood of bringing some of those clients that I started to develop that relationship with me would have been higher. Um, so I think had finances allowed, I would have done 20 to 25 portfolio building sessions until I felt very confident. And then I would have come out of the gate more at 5 or 600 instead of $75, which would have made it a little bit easier to increase and again bring some of those clients with me instead of having to start all over every time I made a price jump. Yeah. Really interesting. So, what do you what message do you convey to a prospective new client when they maybe have the mindset that I think this should only cost $5 or $600? Here you are charging three times more than that. So, what's kind of your messaging to justify that higher price point? You know, it's funny. I don't get a lot of people saying that. I think because I do have transparent pricing on my website. So by the time they come to me, they are usually comfortable with that price point. Um, but I definitely in my regular life have heard of people um, you know, people will say, "Wow, you charge a lot like my photographer charges $300." Um, and I guess my, you know, retort to that would be that every photographer has a different, you know, work method and length of time and and amount of time that they put into their images. $1,550 for me is a profitable rate for the amount of care and time I put into researching for each session. Making sure that the weather is good. Making sure that the location has been scoped out. You know, uh spending the time amount of time with that client to ensure I get beautiful images and then the amount of time it takes me to postprocess. You know, it's not just the 1-hour photo shoot, it's the 6 to 8 hours that come with the entire, you know, process of from start to finish. Um and some people don't do that. Some people show up, the location is what it is. They run everything through a preset. They don't put a lot of thought into it and they deliver it. And that's why they maybe can charge less than I can. So, what would be your advice to someone who is thinking about starting their own family photography business? Maybe they are afraid. Maybe they think that there's no money to be made because it's too competitive. Uh maybe they're thinking that because everybody has their own cell phone, everyone is taking their own family photos. So, what would be your advice to someone who's thinking about starting their own family photography business? I mean, I can't recommend it highly enough. I think it's an amazing career that allows you to be creative, allows you to be entrepreneurial, allows you to control your schedule if you have a family that you want to be able to work around and and be there for. Um, as for the cell phone thing, it's funny. Um, I've never had any client be like, "Oh, I could just take that with my iPhone." Because the reality is that who is it taking the photos? The moms. And they're not in them. They might have beautiful photos of their partner with their children, but the moms are always behind the photo. They that's the target client that you want to capture. You want the moms to have their moment to be in front of the camera with their babies. And I think that once you get out there, and even if it's scary, do it for free. Just try it. Once you get out there, I think you will know right away if this is for you. And I think that the beauty of like seeing a family interact and snuggle and love each other in front of your lens and being able to deliver that to a mom who maybe doesn't get a lot of photos of her with her children is priceless. And is it typically the mom in the family who is making the decision on whether or not this photo shoot is going to happen? Oh yes. I would say 98 out of 100 times it's the mom. And do you do you kind of work to try and make mom look good? Like are you creating absolutely an environment where she's the star of her own show? Absolutely. Yes. We have to work with them. But yes, I um as a mom um especially a lot of the moms that I'm working with in Boston anyways with the age of having children are in their late 30s to early 40s I would say is is the um majority of my clients and we don't always feel great about ourselves in that age range. And yes, so my goal when I am culling is that if mom doesn't look fantastic, I'm not delivering it because as I mean I am a woman and as a woman, you look at a photo and if you feel like you look terrible in that photo, that can cloud your perception of the entire gallery. So I am extremely anal about the photo, how mom looks in every photo that I deliver. And do you uh as part of your kind of welcome package, do you have advice on what people should wear or color tones, patterns to avoid? Absolutely. Um a lot of my advice depends on uh the season that we're in. So I um have a a let's get you styled email that goes out to my clients about a month in advance. Um, and usually it is, yes, it's please avoid neons, avoid black, um, or super dark colors, avoid, um, bright white. Those are all things that just don't look that great with editing. But then, like in the spring, for example, I tell people to avoid green because here in Boston, we have very like that new green that's like very yellowy and it kind of clashes with any other shade of green. So, I recommend blush and mustard and uh light blues for the springtime. And then my recommendations for November are jewel tones because we have warm brown grasses and you really have to kind of work with the backdrop that clients are going to be in. Um, we don't want you to camouflage. We don't want you to clash. Um, and then I try to help them. Clients have a hard time visualizing what something will look like in photos. So, I try to um kind of guide them through not having everyone match, but having the colors be complimentary. So, I'll um I give every client my cell phone number and ask them to pick out the mom's outfit first, whatever you feel beautiful in. Send me that and then I can give you recommendations for the colors that the rest of the family should wear. Okay. So, you're you're going to have the last word here. So, your final advice, someone's thinking about starting a family photography business. do it or don't do it. Do it for sure. Do it. But do it right. Um, register your business, pay taxes, like start well from the beginning. Start a mailing list, have a website. Um, because then every bit that you build is actually, you know, working towards the end goal, which is to have a profitable business that you love. Awesome. So that is Lindsay Hannah and her website is lindsyhannahography.com. She is an award-winning family and baby photographer in Boston. Thank you so much for joining me, Lindsay. Thank you, Tim.