Exposing the Collagen Conundrum!

Hi everyone, it's Dr. Ozzie here. Welcome to the More Than a Pretty Face podcast. Hi everyone, I am back again today with Lacey. Lacey, we are like twinning, girl. We are, look at us. Look at this. It wasn't even planned. We're very on brand. I guess. I feel like we look like we're in the spaceship and we are talking to the people on Earth about the skincare up here. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, we're like the future alien, like with all the knowledge, just giving it to the people down on Earth. I don't know. I love your hair though. Yeah? You like it? I do. I love it. I was getting so hot in the sweater that I was like, okay, I'm just gonna throw it out. You never throw your hair out. I never do that. Never. I never do that. It's always down. And I love it. It's like giving, I don't care because I don't have to. Well, you know, I don't. It's still cute. I love like high ponies and like tight buns, but I never wear them because of that potential for traction alopecia or hair loss from tight ponytails. Like in my mind, everything I do, I like, no, oh, that's probably not good for my hair roots. My hair roots are not gonna be happy about that. I wish I was that smart when I was younger. So what's going on? You got a blemish today? Ooh, yeah, I would say I have a beauty and a blemish. Oh, who could you? Beauty blemish? Well, to start, my beauty is how popular you are. Oh. Yes, because everyone. Really? Everyone in like the beauty industry and health industry, I feel like just sends you. I was never popular. I was like the geeky nerd that nobody wanted to be friends with when I was in high school. I actually changed my name in high school. I know the story. You know the story? I do. I can talk about it now. But so for those of you who may not know, I moved to Kentucky from Iran, the Middle East. And back in the day, this is before social media. This is when the times people were very close-minded. So I was like this terrorist in Kentucky, right? And so I did not wanna be that terrorist. I did not wanna be from Iran, and I didn't wanna have a name like Azadeh when I was a teenager. So I changed my name in high school, and I told everybody my name was Marie. Marie, yes. Because I got bullied so much in elementary and middle school. By the time I got to high school, it was like a new high school, and I was like, oh, this is gonna be it. Like, I'm gonna get rid of that Middle Eastern, like anything. But you did not get rid of the unibrow. By then, the unibrow was gone. It was plucked. So if you went to high school with me, you know me as Marie. You don't know who Azadeh is. Anyways. Oh, I love that. Well, look at you now. Look at you now. Yeah, so like I love to reap the benefits that you, of being your co-host. So like giving me Scarlett Johansson's sweatshirt. Oh, fangirl, I loved it. Oh, I love Scarlett Johansson. She is the sweetest. She is just like so beautiful, and her personality just seems like so amazing. She is, and you talk to her, and she's like, you've been talking to her for like ever. Like she's just been your friend for like forever. Yeah, Scarlett, we would love to have you on the podcast. Well, you never know. Yeah, no, I'm gonna be a part of it too. One of my blemishes, which I don't even think is a blemish, but I think it's really funny, is somebody must have sent you just like galore supplements. Oh yeah, they know how much I love supplements. They were in the break room. And you know Deanna, Deanna loves supplements. She's very into like health and herself, taking care of herself. She's amazing, and she's gorgeous. And so she's like, supplement here, supplement there. What can I do? And stays on all the trends. And so like, I have to know, collagen supplements specifically are everywhere. I know, even in our break room. I walk into the break room the other day, and I was like, what is going on with the collagen powders? There's like a whole lineup of them. There's like collagen shakes, there's collagen capsules, there's collagen, I mean, you name it, there was a lot of collagen. I know we're a dermatology office, I get it, okay. The break room actually looked very confusing because we had a bunch of collagen supplements. Then Selena had a patient that gifted her a bottle of vodka. And then we had a drug rep that brought in pizza and pasta. So our break group was like, what side of the spectrum are we on? I don't know. That's what the vodka was there for. I was going, uh-oh, do I need to call a meeting here? No, we're good, we're good. Who's drinking vodka on the job now, I'm just kidding. Yeah, collagen, I mean, it's a hot topic, as you know. And I feel like we've talked about it often too, and it just still trends, still trends. So I just have to know, is it really helping our collagen and our hair and our nails, or is this like snake oil? Snake oil, it's collagen oil. No, you've probably seen that girl all over social media. She puts this like, it's very satisfying to watch because it's like these sheets, these white sheets of collagen. Oh my gosh, yes. And she says, watch the collagen melts into my skin. I watch your video. And then she like sprays this collagen spray, which is like $20, but you could just spray water, it will melt it too. And then she makes it sound like the collagen actually melts into her skin because it does melt away. And then she was like dewy. And then afterwards she's so dewy and da-da-da-da-da. So, I mean, let's do a quick fact check here. So collagen, it is a large molecule and there is no way that it's gonna be able to penetrate into the skin. So these companies say, well, we have this technology and we break up the collagen, it's hydrolyzed collagen. Okay, hydrolyzed collagen is about 6,000 Daltons. Well, the skin, the most it can absorb is between 500 to 1,000, probably more on the 500 side. But if you have certain technology you incorporate into your skincare, that makes it penetrate better. So let's say we'll give you the benefit of about 1,000 Daltons. Even hydrolyzed collagen is still too large. So what is it gonna do? It's gonna sit on the surface of the skin. And collagen, hydrolyzed collagen attracts water. That's what it does. It just, you know, strikes it all up. And so it is gonna make your skin like dewy and you know, dah, dah, dah. But this collagen mask is like $135. You could just use like the Ordinary's HA serum and it would do the same thing because HA sits on the surface of the skin and it attracts water. So, you know, it's not really melting into the skin. So where do you think this hype comes from? So then people are like, well, drink it. That's what you're not doing. Don't put it on your skin. Yeah, drink it and take supplements. Put it into your mouth and then it's gonna go to your skin. Well, we have time for this, right? How does it know to go to your skin? Well, let's talk. So collagen, again, is very large, right? So it's gonna have a hard time getting across the gut to get into the bloodstream to then travel to the skin. It's also very fragile. So by the time it makes it into the gut, it's probably gonna break down. And it's gonna dissolve and it may never actually make it through the gut. So these collagen powder making companies say, well, it's hydrolyzed collagen. It's stabilized. You know, they give you all this stuff, right? It works. We can prove it gets through the gut. It gets into the bloodstream. Okay, well, how does it know it goes to the skin? Because it gets spread throughout the body, right? So then once it gets to the skin, it's not really collagen. It's just these little building blocks. It's like, you know, you go to the store, you see the Legos sitting there. You see the picture of the Lego, it's an airplane. You take the Lego box home. You don't open it up. The airplane doesn't just pop out into your house. You've gotta take out the packets. You've got the blocks there, right? You gotta make it. You gotta make the airplane. I love how passionate you get. Well, then it needs people, hands, to make the Legos into an airplane. So collagen, peptides, the building blocks needs vitamin C. It needs stimulation. So you've gotta stimulate it to be able to put it all together. And that's where things like retinols come in, exfoliants like glycolic acid. You know, these are what stimulates your skin to make the collagen. Or lasers, microneedling, radiofrequency, all these things boost your skin's ability to put these building blocks together to actually form the collagen. I just, this whole conception of, I'm gonna drink the collagen and it's gonna go straight into my skin and into my joints. No, the limiting factor, the limiting step, it's like those biology experiments you did. The limiting step is the actual putting it together. Yeah. So that's my problem with it. So do you think doing it with other collagen stimulating procedures and skincare, doing it all encompassing together is the building blocks or are you saying like collagen supplements cap? Okay, so here's the thing. Let's talk about the source for the collagen powders. Collagen powders are sourced from animal collagen. And that includes, you're gonna, I don't wanna gross you out. It's bones, hooves of animals. They take it and they grind it down, they shave it, they mix it up, they make it into a powder. So the problem is a lot of these animal byproducts that they're using to make the collagen also have metal, heavy metal toxicity. Oh no. Because then you're getting into the source of, well, they could be contaminated with a lot of cadmium. And if you're just putting a lot of the spoonfuls of those powders into your coffee every morning, you could get cadmium toxicity and like renal failure and kidney problems. So I don't think the science is there. The other problem I have with it is a lot of the studies, well, people like comment and they say, well, there's a lot of meta-analysis studies and da, da, da, da. A lot of the studies are funded by the collagen supplement making manufacturers. So these are the people that are funding the studies. So there's conflict of interest. A little bias. So we really, and the other studies are kind of flawed. We just need more science. It's promising. I'm not saying, the studies do show, to be fair, the studies show that it does help with skin hydration. It helps with skin elasticity and tone. Just overall skin health is better in people who are taking collagen supplements. I get it. But we really do need more unbiased, randomized, controlled, double-blinded studies to really say, okay, this is worth taking despite the risk of high metal toxicity that's a risk with these powders. It's worth it. And honestly, I see people, they're spending, it's not cheap. Some of them are like 60, $100 for these products. I mean, you could just eat Jell-O. Did you know Jell-O is gelatin? Stop it. That's essentially animal collagen. That's what Jell-O is, gelatin. I am going to make Jell-O from now on. A lot of people don't realize that. Jell-O is cheap. It's like $1.50 at Target. Oh my gosh. I just learned something totally, totally blew my mind. Well, in 2020, Americans spent 300 billion or million, oh my God, I shouldn't know. That's a huge difference. $300 million on collagen supplements. Wow. It's a big part of the marketing and all of that. So I think we just have to be really cautious with the science. I'm always a critic. I'm always a science critic. I'm not saying that if it worked for your grandma and if it worked for your friend, it's not good. If it makes you feel good and you are seeing results, by all means, take it. It doesn't hurt. I don't want to say that it hurts. Just don't overdo it. Yeah, moderation is key. Moderation is key. And I have no arguments with success if it works. Now, I know you had mentioned the animal collagen, but I know there are some people out there that say, well, what about marine collagen? Right, so that's the skin and bones of fish. Yeah, same sort of thing. They do have different sources. Like the masks that we were talking about, that's marine collagen. But yeah, and there are jello or gelatin manufacturers that are all vegan and vegetarian. Some of them now are not making it with artificial dyes and sweeteners. It's a whole market. But I'm just saying it's promising. We do need more science and more unbiased research. I would say put on your sunscreen in the morning, take care of your skin, eat a nutritious, well-balanced diet, use your retinol at night, exfoliate once a week, use your vitamin C in the morning, because you do need vitamin C to make the collagen. Yes. Put on your collagen peptides. And hey, if you throw in some collagen powder into your diet, you know, it doesn't hurt. Great, I love it. Well, sorry that my blemish just was like. I don't even know how we got on this topic. Okay. It's my fault. Well. Wait, was that your beauty or your blemish? It was both. Oh, that was your beauty. That was your beauty. That's right, I remember now. It was both. So do you have a blemish? You're gonna die. Oh. You wanna hear my blemish? I don't know. That was really long. That was a long beauty. Okay. Yeah, yeah, let's hear it, let's hear it. Okay, it's kind of funny. So we had a surgery the other day, and Natalie and I went in to start prep. And afterwards, you know, this patient comes in with an iPad every appointment, every appointment, because, you know, he's waiting, why not? And he's usually in for Mohs surgery, you know, so it makes sense. So I was not even observant of his iPad whatsoever. But afterwards, Natalie asked, did you see what was on his iPad? And apparently, he was watching porn. Oh my God. I thought you were gonna say he was watching the White Lotus. Nope. What? Nope. This, you know. Well, you gotta, you know, you gotta get through surgery. You do. And there is nothing more distracting. You know, whatever helps you get through. Wait, I was in with that patient. I don't think I. You, I mean, you would not have noticed that. Probably not. I mean, I guess when she looked down and noticed it, and he realized that she noticed it, he kind of like shut it, like shut his cover to his iPad, and just was like nonchalant, not embarrassed, like no big deal. Well, it's never a dull moment. Never. For us. Never. That's why I love coming into work, because I. I love our patients. They're so fun. But you know, it could have been like an accident, you know, maybe his like teenage grandson was visiting. Yeah, or maybe like an ad pop-up or something. Yeah, an ad pop-up. But I'm sure it was uncomfortable for all parties. I love it. I love what we do. Well, I don't know. I don't know if I could top your beauty and your bumish. Well, try. Well, I would say my beauty is that I got to host a skincare and wellness week in Aspen. Yes. Which was a really unique experience. It was me and a group of incredible women from all over New York and LA. And I got to spend three days with these women. I'd never met them. And so we got to stay at the Hotel Jerome, which is a very, very nice hotel. If you're ever in Aspen. And so we did facials and we got all these beauty tools. And the first night I hosted a dinner and we talked about the skin barrier. And of course, you know, my kind of dinner. Yes. It was a perfect event. And it was beautiful. The way it was with Caudalie, which is one of my favorite skincare lines because it has resveratrol and just really good, clean ingredients. And the owner, Matilda, is this French woman. Her and her husband founded the company in 1995 and they have a vineyard and a lot of the Vino Perfect and a lot of the ingredients come from their wine. And the resveratrol is the founding ingredient of this skincare line. And it's just really luxurious. She is the sweetest, most hands-on founder. Unfortunately, she wasn't there, but, you know, I talked to her from Paris and she is very proud of what she has built, her and her husband, and I admire her so much. I'm so inspired by her. So anyway, but it was a really nice week of getting facials. We went snowshoeing. So I would say that would be my blemish. I mean, my beauty. Your blemish? I'm like, well, geez. My beauty. What am I talking about? Where's the coffee? Yeah, so that was my beauty. I guess my blemish was, so last week, I did radiofrequency and microneedling on this beautiful girl who had had Morpheus 8. Oh, yes. She had Morpheus 8. She didn't have a good experience. She said it was really painful and she got some hyperpigmentation, just was not happy with that procedure. So I said, okay, well, let's, because she's darker skin. I said, I still think radiofrequency and microneedling, which is what Morpheus 8 is, is a great treatment for you. But instead of doing them at the same time, like Morpheus 8 does, let's split them up. Let's do the radiofrequency on its own because that is completely safe. It does nothing to the surface of the skin. It works beneath the surface of the skin using heat to stimulate collagen. And then we can add the microneedling on after the radiofrequency. You're not doing them together, so less risk, but you still get the same results. So then we did the microneedling portion and it went great, no issues, except two days later, she calls me and she's like, oh my gosh, I have this red, itchy bumps all over my face. And I'm going, what? Like, I've never had that happen. Like, it was such a mild microneedling treatment. Like, I don't understand. Radiofrequency doesn't affect the surface of the skin. So I said, okay, come in, come in. So she comes in and I'm going, what is going on? Like, so of course they fess up, you know. She's like, well, I don't know. I was like, tell me exactly what happened after you left the office. Step-by-step, what did you use? What did you do? What did you use? So she's like, well, I had a work meeting in the afternoon that day. So when I got in my car, I used the beauty blender and I applied my foundation. Then I applied this concealer and I just had to get, you know, I didn't think anything of it because it was such a mild treatment. I mean, I was barely red when I left. And I was like, oh my goodness. Wait, you used a beauty blender? Dirty bacteria. Do we not know what goes on inside a beauty blender that's been in your car? She's not listened to our episode. Obviously, she has not listened. So yeah, she ended up getting a yeast infection on her face from microneedling, which is a first for me. I've never actually had that happen. So tell us how you treated it. Well, let's talk about this. Monistat? I'm just joking. I need a therapy session. I need to get it all out. So let's just go back because, you know, everyone makes mistakes and I never fault my patients. You know, I just gave her a hug because bless her heart, she needed a hug. And, you know, we all make mistakes, but the key is let's learn from it, right? So beauty blenders are the most filthy things could exist in our beauty counters, all right? So if you cut open your beauty blender, you might find molds because it just loves to grow bacteria. And they've done so many research studies and published a lot of data on this, that they carry anything from enterococcus to E. coli, which is from your guts to, you do the rest on that, to staph. So they're filthy. You really should wash them after every single use, not once a week, but after every single use. And so when you have microneedling done, you have all these open channels, your skin barrier has been disrupted, which means that it is not protecting you like normal skin. So if you can get infections from normal skin and breakouts from beauty blenders, think of all the things that could go on when you're freshly treated skin. Yeah, my mind is just thinking of all, everything, so. Yeah, so for her, it was the yeast, probably had growing some mold or something inside, and it's really important to clean them. Are you cleaning yours? I refuse to use one. Oh, you always use your finger. Yeah, or I just like my brush, my foundation brush, I'm old school. Brushes can be easier to wash and they probably have less of a chance of getting contamination. I feel like easier to dry. Easier to dry. So I don't have to worry about it like holding and harboring, wet, moldy. Yeah. But beauty blenders, I recommend that you put them in water, add a little soap, like soapy water, and make sure you emerge them in soap water. And then you can actually put them in the microwave. Oh. And microwave them for like 30 seconds, a minute, and then take it out. But be sure you don't just grab it, right? Cause it's gonna be really hot. You wanna let it cool down. Then you wanna kind of rinse out the excess water and then just leave them out to dry. So if you are a avid beauty blender user, you want to make sure that you have like 10 or 12 of them. So you can wash them or only use them once and wash them. You can also soak them in white vinegar. Yeah, that's what I heard. Because a lot of the bacteria that infect beauty blenders are gram negative bacteria and white vinegar works amazingly well for gram negative bacteria, as well as fungus and yeast. So I guess what most people will wanna know is how long should they wait after microneedling before applying makeup? 24 hours. Perfect. I love microneedling because it has very minimal downtime, but it's the first 24 hours that your skin is open and you could potentially get infections or complications, irritation. So I think for her, it was partly the contamination, but partly it could have been irritation. So it's not only is your skin barrier disrupted, but then now you're inflaming it by causing irritation. And then you're also using a contaminated instrument to further add salt to the wound. So you just have to be really, really cautious. Take the office procedure seriously. If you are doing microneedling at home or doing the derma roller, be sure that you are cleaning them. You're not storing them when they're damp or wet and the needles get dull when you're doing it at home. So make sure you're changing those out very regularly. In our office, every time we microneedle someone, it's a fresh cartridge and the needles are sharp. And so they're gonna perform at the best standard. The problem I have with at-home microneedling is the needles get dull. And if you use it over and over and over again, you're sort of gonna potentially tear the skin from a dull needle. Yes. Fun times. And you guys, even if it's new makeup, you still wait 24 hours. Let your skin kind of heal over before applying anything, makeup-wise. That's right. So before we get into your questions, guys, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe if you are enjoying the podcast. Share it with a friend who might also be interested. We are so grateful for your support and listenership. It is what keeps the podcast going. Yes. And be sure to follow us on Instagram. Let's see what we have for today. I have Mitchell, and he wants to know your thoughts on an LED device. I love LED devices. I think of all the at-home devices, it has the highest benefit with the lowest risk. So I think they're fantastic. I like the Omnilocks, and I'm not sponsored by them. They've never paid me to say that. But it has one of the strongest scientific evidence behind their device, which is why I like them, because there's actually good research and data to back up their claims. And they have one that sort of contours to your face, so it's very comfortable. And they have a red one, which is great for healing, collagen stimulation, skin rejuvenation. And then they also have a blue light LED, which is great for acne and breakouts, because blue light kills acne-causing bacteria. And so if you are doing it for breakouts, I would go for one that's blue. Other ones are the Dennis Gross one is really good. There is Cure, Q-U-R-E is another one. I haven't heard of that one. Neutrogena used to have a good affordable one. I don't think they have that anymore. They don't have it anymore, but they're expensive. It's an investment, but if you are going to go with an at-home device, that is a good one. Yeah, that's a great question. Let's see what we have next. We have Maya, and she wants to know, how do young age eating habits affect your skin, nails, hair later on? Oh, wow. That's a great question. We could do a whole episode. Guys, if you guys are interested in this topic, there's a lot we can say about it. Comment below. Let me know if you guys want us to dedicate an episode to skin and nutrition, because we could talk a lot. Yeah. So that's a good question. And I think that starting good habits when you are younger is absolutely the best thing you can do for your body, your health, your skin, your hair. It's all about what we put inside our body that shows on the outside. And I'm a firm believer of that. So obviously limit the sugars, especially refined carbohydrates or things that really spike up your sugar levels, because glycation is a phenomenon that happens when you have this big spike in your sugar that then binds to these collagen molecules and then causes them to be damaged or affect their strength. And artificial sweeteners. Yeah, soda, artificial sweeteners. A lot of people think, well, this is not sugar, right? I'm gonna have my Splenda. My husband's like that. He's like, how does he Splenda? I'm like, just because it's artificial sweetener doesn't mean it doesn't spike your glucose levels. And then I would say if you're acne-prone skin or if you have oily skin, whey protein is one that's been shown to stimulate a hormone called insulin-like growth hormone. And that can rev up your oil production and make breakouts worse. So I would switch to a plant-based protein instead of whey. And then I know alcohol is not considered an eating habit, but certainly alcohol intake is really bad for your skin. For example, if you have rosacea-prone skin and you're prone to redness, it causes a lot of flushing and blushing. And over time can cause rosacea to progress and lead to thickened skin. So have you seen, do you know who J.W. Fields is? Or Bill Clinton is an example. You know where he gets the really thick red nose, looks like Rudolph the reindeer nose. Yeah, that's called rhinophyma. That's sort of end stage. But aside from that, acetaldehyde is a by-product of alcohol and that can really damage your collagen long-term. Everything in moderation. Like you don't want to overdo anything. Yeah, get in the habit of eating just lots of fruits and vegetables and well-balanced diet, like I always say. You can cheat and do all sorts of things, but you really have to be cautious in terms of your cheat days and your guilty pleasures. Now, things like coffee. You know, some people think, well, that's supposed to be really good for you. And it is, it's a great antioxidants. And there's been studies that say how it's beneficial for the skin. But be careful, don't do too much because it can dehydrate you. Yes, it can. And make your eye bags worse. And what's another one that's- And then red wine, you know, red wine is full of resveratrol, but you don't want to overdo it. One glass a night. One glass, yeah. But one glasses then becomes two glasses. Next thing you know, you got a bottle, you know, then that becomes a problem. Yeah. All right, guys. Well, thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you found this helpful. Comment below. Let us know what you want to see on the More Than a Pretty Face podcast. Thanks. Bye, guys. Bye.