The #Phillies Real Offseason Kicks Off at the GM Meetings! | Hittin' Season

From WHYY, it is hitting season. Hey there, podcast pals. I'm John Stolnes from The Good Fight. You can follow me on Blue Sky at John Stolnes. Coming up, the GM meetings are getting underway. This is not to be confused with the winter meetings. There's two whole separate sets of meetings where stuff is supposed to take place during the early part of the off-season baseball calendar. But this week, general managers and team presidents will be getting together to talk about potential trades, talk about potential free agents, Especially with. With the collective bargaining going to run out in just a few weeks, will we see a busy week this week here in the hot stove by baseball and by the Phillies and Dave Dombrowski? We're going to talk about some of the rumors that are out there right now and what we think could happen this week, what we would like to see happen this week, any number of different angles to take on this. But right now we're just in speculationville. So joining me here on this edition of the Speculation Roundtable, Justin Clue and Liz Roescher. Liz, you know, is the editor of I'm a member of SABR's Baseball Research Journal, and you can follow her on Blue Sky at Liz Roescher. Liz, hello. How are you? I'm great, thanks. The Baseball Research Journal is on its way out. It's being printed as we speak. So if you are a member of SABR, you can keep an eye on that. In your inbox, you'll get an email telling you when it arrives. You'll get an email telling you if it's coming to you in print form. If you'd like a copy, I could tell you where to buy one. I can help you with that. I myself am going to have a whole bunch of extra copies because that's just what happens when you're editor. I've got a whole bunch of extra copies of every other baseball research journal I've published and I have nowhere to put them. If you would like them, I'll send them to you for just the cost of shipping. Well, let's we could also maybe even do a fun giveaway here on the show or something at some point down the line. We haven't talked about that. So I'm just spitballing here. But, you know, maybe we could make this maybe we could make this a thing, you know. So. So, yeah, let's. But that's fantastic. I'm excited to see the baseball research journal come out. So that is good news. And I've been working hard on it, gathering everything over the last few months and doing all the editing for this. That's terrific. Looking forward to seeing that. Justin Clue, of course, from Baseball Prospectus. He also hosts a couple of podcasts over at our Hit and Season Patreon. The Dirty Inning and Absolutely Hammered. He's also author of Summer of the Cheap Wieners. You can order that book at brooklinebooks.com. Just in time. We are now getting down to Christmas time, folks. It is a great thing to put on the Christmas list for the Phillies fan in your life. You can follow Justin on Blue Sky at Justin Clue. Justin, how you doing, buddy? I don't know if everybody saw, but... But, uh... A's owner John Fisher, since the GM meetings are happening in Las Vegas, and Las Vegas is now only a year away from becoming the epicenter of baseball, John Fisher has expressed some regret about that sort of reclusive image that he had while he was the owner of the A's in Oakland. And now, you know, it's time to step out. It's time to be... Johnny fun times, you know, in Las Vegas and really get out there. He's, he's, he's going to Metallica shows at the sphere. He's swaying gently with the music. He's watching Celine Dion air guitar. I mean, all the things we normal people do, uh, when we're spending our leisure time, John Fisher is now one of us. And I think, uh, that, that just makes this whole thing a lot more, uh, tolerable. I think, you know, it's been, it's been a couple of years now since the A's left and Las Vegas is now, you know, are we, are we all past this? I mean, John Fisher certainly is. So I just thought that was pretty cool that they rose the, they brought in the third steel truss of the stadium today. Progress. That's fantastic news. I'm all, I'm, I'm giddy with excitement about that. Yeah. And really excited about baseball in Las Vegas. Really just the greatest thing. Wow. in a very, very long time. Yeah, really glad to see. Baseball coming to the epicenter of gambling in America. Okay, great. All right. So let's move on, though, and we'll talk a little GM meetings preview here as the Phillies and Dave Dombrowski and other GMs and team presidents are gathering for a few days of talks. And it's going to be a little bit different this year, I think. And I want to get your thoughts on this as well, guys, because... We have a lockout that is likely coming in about three weeks. I don't know if there's going to be a flurry of moves over these next few weeks because teams don't know exactly what the financial situation, the landscape is going to look like on the other side of this thing. But I would imagine that you will have some GMs, you will have some teams that are looking to get aggressive. And you'll have some teams that are going to hang back and wait and see how things go. But with just three weeks before the current CBA expires, just before we get into specific rumors, I'm kind of curious what you guys think Dave Dombrowski and John Middleton's approach. Would most likely be based on past performance, based on what they've done in the past and, you know, levels of aggression with I'm trying to remember how the previous lockout went back before it was the 2022 season, how that all went down. But was that right? Twenty between twenty one and twenty two. The last time we had one of these, I think I think I'm getting those dates right. All right. Yeah. So I don't think the Phillies made any big moves before twenty twenty two before the twenty twenty two lockout began. Um, but yeah, Justin, what do you think? How are you feeling about what we might be looking at over these next few days this week and over the next couple of weeks? Do you think we're going to be hitting the accelerator or the brake? Well, I think baseball in general is said to be in a more accelerated state with the three weeks before the lockout is supposed to begin. So that's kind of the hard part about the Phillies right now is figuring out what are they motivated for? Are they motivated at all at this point in the game? Do they feel like there's enough options out there for them to start doing things? Because you've got the Dave Dombrowski kind of immediacy factor. He doesn't like to sit around and... Wait till all the numbers get counted and everybody shows up before he starts conducting his business. But if that's the general state of things this year, you know, are some teams going to be even more motivated than other teams to get their rosters together? And like, what's motivating that specifically? And the thing with the Phillies is that there's such widespread top to bottom issues to correct here. Whether you're talking about bullpen help, which is in some cases said to be the big priority, or this right-handed bat, run producer, probably an outfielder, another outfielder. Some reports would indicate two outfielders are also on the table for the Phillies. Starting pitching depth, infield insurance, it has been called, with some new names kind of popping up on that carousel today. And then obviously you got to go out and find a backup catcher as well, which we talked about in our last episode. So with so many things to do and so many players to find, I wouldn't be surprised if this still reflects the more accelerated nature of the GM meetings this year, but it is still like laying groundwork, if not just like faster and more efficiently, because there are things the Phillies need to do and get the ball rolling on unquestionably. It's just, you know, what's going to be available in this flurry of activity. Yeah, and I think that's going to be a key question. And I wonder, Liz, if we're not more likely to see trades during these next few weeks than maybe free agent signings, because, you know, generally speaking, you kind of know what the salaries for guys that you're acquiring from other teams are already going to be. So maybe that'd be easier to pull off over these next few weeks rather than. Signing a guy to a big money deal when you don't know if the salary cap is going to exist and if there's going to be things grandfathered in and if there if there is a salary cap, which, again, I just don't I don't envision a salary cap in baseball. But I wonder how these negotiations are all going to go. We can get into that as we get into the lockout, certainly. But, you know, what is your take on on what you're expecting in terms of immediacy over the next few weeks? I was looking back five years ago to see what was happening, and there is no shortage of minor league moves in MLB in the late November, early December. Oh, minor league. There were almost no major league moves at all. And the lockout, when the lockout began, like, I think I'm looking right now, December 3rd, December 4th. I think it must have started right around here. Like here, at 12-5-21, the Philadelphia Phillies signed free agent Elíasir Bata and Dariam Gutierrez, two minor league contracts. Okay. That's about it. You're going to see only minor league stuff. And I think that's all you'll see in the lead up for the next few weeks, because it's the only thing that they can be sure about. Five years ago, I don't believe they had a CBA. This time they do, but it's not affected by the MLB lockout. You know, minor leagues will go on as usual for the most part, I think. So my expectation is a bunch of small moves that mean very little. Yeah. No, and I think that's kind of where I'm leaning on this, too. The Phillies, once this lockout begins, they're not going to be allowed to have any contact with any players on their 40-man roster. Now, the good news is Aiden Miller is not on their 40-man roster, so they'll be able to continue working with him. The rules are so dumb. This is such a weird thing, but if you're not on a 40-man roster, yeah, you can have all the contact with the team in the world that you need. It's really just for those players. Thank you. I think Dave Dombrowski, people say he's an aggressive GM, and I don't see that. I mean, you know, I think. No, that's not the word. No, it's not the word. Immediate is more of the word. Aggressive makes it sound like, yeah, he's like ripping, flipping rocks over and ripping doors down, looking for deals. I think he's more just like... EJ Prosser is aggressive, yeah. Yeah, I think Dombrowski's more like, I like to get it done quickly, and then... Then it's done. Move on with my life. Well, and see, that's why I wonder right now whether or not that wouldn't be a reason for him to kind of go out and get some of the players that have been kind of linked to the Phillies. And we all know what this team's needs are. They've got needs at third base with Alec Boehm hitting free agency. They've got certainly needs in the outfield and a right-handed bat for the middle of the lineup or an on-base bat. at the top of the lineup, and I wanted to talk about that in a little bit as well. And certainly a lot of bullpen help, and you said you mentioned starter depth. They need that, and backup catcher. There's a lot of different things that you have outlined, Justin, that they need for sure. Let's go over some of the rumors that have kind of started now that we see people gathering. Thank I don't even know, where are they holding the GM meetings? I didn't even check to see where that was happening. Vegas. Oh, it is in Vegas. Okay. Okay. So one of the names, and we talked about him last week on the podcast, you Justin, is former Padres reliever Adrian Morejon. Thank very Jim Salisbury said on the Phillies Show podcast that he believed the Phillies were hot for him in the bullpen. much. And again, we talked about the fit last week, you Liz, and it makes all the sense in the world. He is the best reliever available on the market. He's left-handed. very He would form a dynamic one-two punch in the back of that bullpen with Joan Duran. On the field, it makes all the sense in the world, much. but one of the things we discussed last week was the contract is going to be exorbitant for a closer. Not for a closer, for a relief pitcher. It's not even going to be a closer. And you're going to have a setup guy who's going to be making way more money than the closer is, the guy that your incumbent closer, Joan Duran, who you've had for a number of years and who you probably need to sign to a contract extension. How much money are you going to pour into two guys in the bullpen? That would be... different. We haven't seen Dave Dombrowski do that before. So, There's some things, and he also is being talked about as a possible starter somewhere. I think there are teams that want to try him out as a starting pitcher. Also, the closer's role is spoken for in Philadelphia. He might want to go somewhere where he can get some saves. Lots of different things, and he's also a qualifying offer, too. I'm just laying out different reasons why this might not be just as simple as he real good, let's sign him. I mean, he is real good, and the smart thing would be to sign him, but the Phillies love letting stuff like that get in their way of a sensible move. You know, not that those things should be ignored, but... It's a really sensible signing that I think they should take advantage of, and they love to let things like Qualified, it'll take up their draft picks. Someone, it'll take their draft pick away, and they won't get to use it on whatever guy who they pick who is just, again, not going to work out for them because they're the ones that picked him. So. I would love for them to overcome this, but I would also say let's not predict too much on the money side yet. I would say let's wait. I mean, exorbitant, I don't know how much you guys would think that is. How much is exorbitant to you guys? Well, they think, what, he's potentially getting a four- or five-year deal that's like 25 AAV? I mean, that's pretty exorbitant, and if you're on the reliever market, that's about as exorbitant as you're going to get this year on the reliever market. I think that it's more like if the Phillies think they can get anything close to what you get from Morejon, anywhere else, they'd go with anywhere else. And that option may exist if you're looking at a guy like Stephen Okert, which is probably a lot more appealing to them, more like advanced veteran pitchers, like 35 years old, but coming off like maybe the best year of his career, lowest walk rate of his career. You know, yeah, at least it's not like a guy who did that. Three years ago, and they're like, yeah, we think we can regain that form. He just did those things, and he wouldn't require a long deal or any promises to start or anything like that. Now, the value of the starting stuff with Morejon is that there might be a team out there that has the two needs the Phillies have, which is insurance for their starting rotation and also high-leverage lefty reliever help in the bullpen. And boy, that's pretty niche that he could theoretically hit both of those. roles and be that starting rotation depth too, but do you want to be the team that gives them the chance to figure that out? Because who knows if that even really works. With Okert, I think it's just a simpler situation and probably a smaller deal and less money though you aren't getting that elite level pitching from the other side of the plate to match up with Duran. Yeah. God, Liz. I was just thinking, there has been a trend towards players wanting shorter deals for higher amounts of money, but shorter deals And that could be attractive to the Phillies, but I'll admit, I don't know if that's more on the batter or the pitcher side, because I know batters have started preferring that, but pitching is so volatile that I don't know if that's a trend we've seen in pitchers. I think they generally want longer deals to shield them from possible massive injury. Yeah, I would agree with Liz on that. I think you're right, Liz. I think he would welcome a longer deal, a more lucrative deal. And I think the Phillies, that's where they've clearly decided they feel more comfortable, is more years to make the AAV a little bit more palatable. But I think I've read this, Dave Dombrowski has never given out a contract to a relief pitcher of more than two years. Uh, and... I mean, I think Duran will be the first if it happens, if they sign him to an extension, which I think is I think that's got to happen if they sign Morejon like you can't in that clubhouse have the setup guy signed to a more lucrative and more secure deal than your incumbent closer, who is a finalist, one of the finalists for the reliever of the year award and has been lights out since he came to Philadelphia. I'd So I don't, I don't see, I would love to see it. I would love to see Morejon come to Philadelphia. I would love to see them be aggressive. And I'm encouraged to hear Jim Salisbury reporting that because Jim you Salisbury is usually pretty good and wouldn't throw out a name like that unless he was really hearing some rumblings about that. very So I'm happy to hear that. And it sounds like they're taking it seriously. And if they can figure out a way to make all of that stuff much. that I mentioned at the beginning work, then fantastic. It'd be a great signing. It would give the Phillies such a dangerous... Eighth, ninth inning punch at the back of the bullpen that they really have never had before. Really going back to... Not to this degree, but J.C. Romero, Ryan Madson, Brad Lidge was the best back of a bullpen we've ever seen in this city. But they don't, I mean, they're not the same as Duran and Morejon would be. But I'll throw a couple other names out at you. You mentioned Stephen Okert, Justin. I wrote an article for The Good Fight late last week running down some other names. And there's a few other left-handed relievers on the free agent market that might work as well. Alex Vesia is a name that we know pretty well. He's been with the Dodgers for the last few years. Was a troublesome guy for the Phillies, especially their left-handers to deal with. His walk rate jumped big time last year, but he was still pretty effective. Over the last three years, a 2.45 ERA. And he's had 207 appearances over the course of the last three seasons. So Major League Baseball, traderumors.com is predicting a two-year, $26 million contract for him. That sounds more like a Dave Dombrowski relief pitcher contract to me. That seems like what. And Okert, they gave him, MLB-TR projected him to have a $14 million contract over two years. So two years at $7 million average annual value. A couple other names, though. Sean Newcomb is a lefty who had a 1.8 WAR back in 2025 and a 2.0 WAR for the White Sox last year. 49th percentile fastball, not, you know. He doesn't blow your doors off, but he's a ground ball machine and does well against lefties and righties over the last couple of years. So that's a name that you could probably get him on a one-year deal. Another possible one-year guy is Brock Burke of the Reds, who's had a solid two-year run. He's had a 1.3 wins above replacement each of the last two years in 2025 with the Angels. And then last year, he led the National League in appearances with the Cincinnati Reds, appeared in nearly half their games and ranked 89th percentile in hard hit rate. 95 mile an hour average on his fastball, 28.7% whiff rate. That's pretty good in the 76th percentile. So that's another guy who could be a good addition. And then Jojo Romero, former Philly Jojo Romero is a free agent. He's been really good over the last few years. You could probably get him on a one-year deal. And then I threw AJ Puck in there, who's been injured for most of the last two years. But last time he pitched a full season in 2024. He was one of the very best relievers in baseball, and really from 22 to 24, he was lights out. So those are just some other names that, to me, make more logical sense than Morejon, even though my preference obviously would be Morejon. I don't care the cost. Yeah, I mean, it does just come down to what was payrolls, like 290. That's the number that's like floating around now as we look at these. And you're just like, OK, well, they're not going to spend on every one of these. Every one of these roles they need. And if bullpen is the priority, like you've kind of seen reports come out and indicate, then yeah, it'd be a good place to spend your money. You know, if you are willing to still spend money, then that'd be a good place to do it. There's a great option available. And if all it costs you is dollars, then sure. But the Phillies are a little more sensitive to that last few years as well. And I think that they'll never admit it, but it's something that seems like it's, More of an obstacle, perhaps, than before when they're out here looking for roles to fill. And if that's on top of, say, a Suzuki, how much would you expect them to go for a Suzuki or an Arosa Reina, regardless of how good of a fit you find personally those guys to be? Those are the two names you're going to see, 1A and 1B, as potential outfield bats. How likely is signing one of them if you bring in Morejon? Like, I don't know. Less. Yeah, it's less. It's less. And so that's the question. What's your priority? Like, if you can only do one, what is more important? And listen, there's a great argument for either one. I mean, I think we undersell the importance of the bullpen, and I don't think I'm no longer doing that. Like, I'm not going to undersell the importance of getting a really good bullpen because it has been just as responsible for postseason failures the last three years as the offense has been. Every bit is responsible. For the failures in the playoffs as the offense has been. So it's one of the reasons they just couldn't cobble anything together against the Braves in the wildcard series. They had to burn Jesus Luzardo as long as they did. You know, they had to do a whole bunch of different stuff that cost them. So I don't know. Do you guys, I mean, do you want to answer that question? Like if you had to choose one, is it a bat? If your options are Suzuki slash Rosarena or Morejon, I think I'm going with Suzuki and one of these other left-handers on a one- or a two-year deal rather than, say, Morejon on a four- or a five-year deal and then trying to fill out my outfield with something like Taylor Ward. We can act like—I think the truth is the more I've been reading about guys like Okert, it does feel like that's the more realistic angle. It's not that you're going to get exactly the same level of talent from Morejon. He's valued how he's valued for a reason. But it does feel like having him and Duran is sort of something from a fantasy world, like a late 90s Yankees kind of scenario where you just wind up with these two elite closers and you don't have to worry about the last six outs of a game all of a sudden. I mean, I feel like you can get effective lefty high leverage work from a guy like Okert and maybe even from Romero. And the idea being that you're not... This is a sacrifice you're making because you are going to invest heavily in these solutions in the outfield. Like one of these things that I've listed, and we're up to like now five or six things that the Phillies need. One of them's got to cost you money. One of them, at least, you know, if this truly is like, okay, but then we won't spend as much elsewhere. Well, that shouldn't be the case either. But I'm assuming in at least one of these cases, you got to be willing to spend something. Because, you know, we all know what this team's kind of reputation is at this point. The half measures and one-year deals are, you know, in some areas they're not going to be as effective or they haven't been as effective. So is the bullpen where you want to do that? I mean, I feel like you can get away with it. They've been running into walls for every specific thing they've needed has just not been out there. It's not in the trade. It's not in the market, whatever. And in this case, you kind of do have multiple options as far as lefties from your bullpen go. I feel like you could get away with investing elsewhere and then pitching to people. And now we also have Steven Okert. And people could get on board with that. The issue has been addressed by somebody who had a great year last year doing the job you're asking them to do now. That would be a development for the Phillies as well. Liz, what do you think? I agree. I agree as much as I think bullpen is extremely important. Uh, with, you know, given all the things that we've seen, I don't think they, they can go out and spend everything on them because they, they have so many other things they need. And if any of these other guys could fill that role, they might even be able to afford two of them. Well, yeah, I was going to say, yeah. Like if they can afford a couple of these guys, that would be great because in addition to. Not having enough good guys. Sometimes they just haven't had enough guys, you know, in the bullpen that they even come close to trusting. And if they could try and beef that up, maybe sign a couple of guys to minor league contracts with the idea of bringing them up, because it doesn't seem like they do that anymore. They don't sign guys, lower level guys, with the intent of bringing them up if they need help. And that seems like a lost cause for the Phillies. And I'd like for them to kind of get back to it. I think this offseason is a good opportunity for them to try to do that again and build in a little bit of depth, you know, a couple of, you know, emergency exits when they have bullpen issues. So is it a dream? It could be. Well, Marajon would certainly be the dream as well. It'd be great. The dream would be to get Marajon and one of those bats. But we'll see exactly how much how aggressive Dave Dombrowski will be this offseason and over the next few weeks. And then whenever the lockout is over, let's get into another rumor. And this also came from an article Jim Salisbury wrote for NBC Sports Philadelphia involving infielder Ha Seon Kim. Who has played with Atlanta over the last year. Kim has had a rough last couple of years. He's missed time with injuries. Had a 50. Weighted runs created, which means he was 50% below league average offensively compared to the average offensive player. Per Fangraphs last year, compiled a negative 0.9 wins above replacement over 99 games. But from 23 to 25, he was a really good infielder. He piled up 10.5 wins above replacement. Had a 106 weighted runs created. Played really good defense at multiple positions, including shortstop. He's a right-hander. From 21 to 24, was really good with the Padres. Had a five-win season in 2022 and a five-and-a-half-win season in 2023. He won a gold glove, playing three positions in 2023. But he's had shoulder surgery and hand surgery, and that's why he's had some down years back-to-back seasons. So here's the word to get comfortable with again. A bounce-back candidate, Liz. That's what it sounds like. Ha Seon Kim, they're thinking about him as a utility infielder. A bit of backup in case the Trey Turner at shortstop, hope and prayer doesn't pan out. That way you'd have Hassan Kim ready to go. I guess he'd replace Edmundo Sosa on the roster is what it's kind of sounding like to me, Liz. What do you think about that? All right. Right. If that's a direction they want to go in, okay. I can't say I love it, but maybe he'll be cheap. And that's something that the Phillies love. They love cheap. I don't know. He signed a one-year $20 million contract last offseason, if you can believe that. So, I mean, I think you're right. It's not going to be a super expensive contract. Then it'll be a one-year deal. But I'm kind of curious what that number would be based off of $20 million a year ago. Would it be one-year $10 million like Max Kepler? Oh, please. I'll bet. I'll bet it would be. Because, I mean, that's all I can feel. And Adofî Garcia. That's all I hear, that's all I see, that's all I feel with these guys, these bounce-back guys. They sign him and hope there'll be something. And signing him as a utility infielder just feels like a terrible accident waiting to happen. Just. I mean, if he's a utility infielder, there are now so many different ways he could screw up. So many different ways he could fail and get hurt and be useless to the Phillies. Listen, I can't stop them from doing anything. And I don't know if I have any better ideas. But, man, I'd love them to stop doing that. I'd love them to stop with the bounce-back candidates a little bit. And, I don't know, try anyone maybe slightly younger. They just love older guys. To do this work, God, I'm not saying anything new or informational here. I'm just frustrated with the Phillies and the fact that they tend to go this way. Well, I mean, more good news is that he's clearly declined. I don't I don't know if you just have less patience to determine if a guy know is struggling or declining at this point as he enters his 30s. what But, like, I've kind of lost patience with it and just assumed it's you're been two years since that great season that he put up. talking And this past year, you know, if you want to say that he regressed too far and that there is some bouncing back to find here. about. I still don't think it's going to be to the height that he was at when he was playing, 27, 28 years old. But the other side of that is, well, actually, no, to stay on this side for a second, he also had a torn labrum. In 2025 and calf and back issues to end this year. Something to keep in mind. Part of that bounce back, bounce back potential. But for the kind of role you're looking for, I mean, again, you're not bringing in a stud 24-year-old infielder who even if he is like all glove and no bat, that guy's probably still starting somewhere. I think. This is probably the level of guy you can expect. And to be honest, being like 30, he's on the younger side as far as these kind of roles go. You bring him in now, you're kind of clarifying a little bit of an ambiguous infield situation, or at the very least, you're providing yourself cover at multiple positions as you try to put together what exactly this is going to look like and then what it's going to look like again after Trey Turner loses his job. So other than that, I mean, it's more, it's less about Ha Sung Kim specifically. And it's more about like, Hey, look, this, I think is the pool. The Phillies are playing in as far as any infield help that they also need. So that's, it's an indicator of that. And as far as that goes, you know, yeah, it's fine. Can he play gold glove defense? Can he play something close to gold glove defense? Can he play better defense than Trey Turner? You know, the bar might not even be that high. I think a guy like this is perfectly adequate if, again, you know, you're doing this because, I mean, this is not the area where I expected the Phillies to dive, but to invest a bunch of resources acquiring a guy anyway. No, that's true. And Aiden Miller is on the way, it seems like. I mean, I think if Trey Turner really falls apart, Aiden Miller is probably more the backup scenario. And again, we've talked about it before. We don't want to rush the kid to the majors. We want to make sure that he's ready to come up when he's when he's eventually called up. But clearly they have that in mind. This would be, though, just an Edmundo Sosa replacement. I think they're looking for somebody who has more versatility, who I mean, I who just plays a little bit differently. But I mean, if. My concern is that all we heard last offseason with the Adolis Garcia signing was, oh, you know, maybe if he can just find that 2023 stroke again. Oh, if he can just find... And this is, again, I'm not going to get all worked up over Ha Sung Kim. If they sign Ha Sung Kim, okay. I don't know. You know, you're right. That's not going to make or break the offseason. They haven't given out their last one-year deal, guys. That's correct. They have not brought in their last bounce-back candidate. Like, this is all, this is not going to be like, well, we got five jobs open and we brought in five guys who are all in their prime. Like, that's not going to happen. And that's kind of how rosters get put together. It's just interesting, like, this is the name, the first real name that we've heard so far during these negotiations. So it's just interesting that this is kind of where we're starting off. I think we got to just temper a bit, you know. Yeah, we do. Yeah, right. We're throwing Morejon and Tadahito Sato's name out there last week. And, you know, we're all at the beginning of this, and the big names are right in front of you. And, you know, some of them doing exactly the thing that the Phillies are looking for a guy to do. It's easy to get excited, but I do think there just needs to be a lot of, like, like I said, this is an indication of where they're looking, uh, the level they're looking at to fill this specific role. We don't have like a whole lot of like fully confirmed reports and links to other players and other, other places that we're very curious about, but you know, this one, we actually have some indication, just take it as that, you know, you're, you're not, you're not, it's not It's not going to be sexy all the way up and down. No, that's true. That's true. I will say the one thing that has delighted me about this conversation is Aiden Miller replacing Trey Turner and Trey Turner having to move off of his position because Aiden Miller is there. I do like the sound of that. I like the idea of that. I enjoy the number of podcasts I'll be screaming, hey, Trey Turner, stop being selfish and go to the outfield. That's exciting stuff for the future. The other big rumor that I wanted to talk about, maybe Trey Turner won't even be here next year. If USA Today's Bob Nightingale is to be believed, he wrote up a little bit of a preview for the GM meetings for USA Today, was talking about the work that Dave Dombrowski has ahead of him this week, and he wrote, the Phillies continually make the playoffs, albeit on the final day of the season this year, but have gone backwards in the postseason. Stop me if you've heard this, Phillies fans, but did you know that they've gone from winning the pennant and losing in the World Series in 2022, losing in the NLCS in 2023, losing in the NLDS in 2024 and 2025, and losing in the NL wildcard round last season? That's a little history lesson that Bob wanted to impart on everyone. The Phillies, who are in desperate need for a third baseman and a left fielder, badly want to shake things up. Those are Bob's words. And that requires more than just firing a few of their coaches. I'm with you on that one, Bob. Brandon Marsh and Trey Turner are available, but Kyle Schwarber and Bryce Harper are staying put. So that's from Bob Nightingale, letting us know that Brandon Marsh and Trey Turner are available. I have no way, I have no way, I have no doubt. That if a team came calling about either one of those players, Dave Dombrowski would not hang up the phone. He would very likely engage in a trade conversation, certainly with Brandon Marsh, who I think there's a good chance he moves this offseason. Trey Turner, we'd all love to see Trey Turner's contract taken off our hands, I think. I don't think there's a single Phillies fan in Philadelphia who's pining for Trey Turner to stay. The man has a full no-trade clause. He's not getting traded anywhere. Bob, I mean, he's got a full no trade clause. What are we doing? Why would you write that? Who's telling you this? Where is this? What corner of the back offices are telling you that Trey Turner's? Yeah, I've no doubt that he's available. But what kind of a report is that? It's a report where he did not cite a single source. He did not say, sources have told me, or I've heard through the grapevine, or a friend of a friend said. He just said, these guys are available, and these guys are not. Any of us could have told you that, except for the Trey Turner part, which is just straight up wrong. I mean, I'm sure he's available in the sense that the Phillies would like to trade him, but whether or not they can do that, like want and can are two different things. Well, I mean, you know, it would be different if the Phillies were saying we aren't interested in trading Trey Turner. That would also tell you something. So I guess I understand why it's said, but I also think one of the reasons it's said is the same reason that Bob went through season by season finishes for the Phillies over the last few years. It's because the more words you write, the more of the Internet you can fill up. And Bob figured that trick out a couple of years ago, and he's getting pretty good at it. So, filling out the column is never a problem if you need to give people a brief history lesson or simply say players' names. Yeah, he's available. Lots of players are available in the sense that teams will listen to you if you have an idea. But, you know, I think we all know the situation here with Trey Turner. And you better just prepare to... No matter what you do with the infield, put Trey Turner somewhere, because for the most part, he's not going anywhere. I mean, agreed. They're stuck with him. I mean, and the only way that this is going to work, I mean, I just, nobody believes that he's going to play a good enough shortstop to stick there next year. And so they're going to have to figure that out. And, you know, Hassan Kim is the backup plan until Aiden Miller's ready. That's kind of what it's looking like. But he's not going anywhere. He's not getting traded. They could have something all lined up. Trey's not going to go anywhere. I mean, I can't imagine a team he would want to get traded to. I just, I don't. Best case scenario with Trey Turner next year for everybody. What? He spends a week at shortstop, commits three errors. Phillies say, that's it. He moves to second base, immediately starts playing better. The pressure's off, starts hitting better. Phillies are able to put an infield together. Miller's ready. He comes up. Stott's handling some whatever coverage you need. We need... And then after that, you're just kind of off to the races. And you're like, all right, let's see if we can get his bat. back in shape and he's able to do that because he's less stressed about the shortstop thing. I mean, that's that's got to be the best case scenario for Turner, but it definitely involves him staying on the team and not playing shortstop. Yeah. One hundred percent correct. And speaking of players who are available, I did have a trade idea I wanted to run by you guys. The Baltimore Orioles are said to be open to trading anyone on the roster except Pete Alonzo, which is interesting. Like, really, Pete Alonzo is the one guy you won't move. I mean, I know he had a great season for you last year, but I mean, there was some folks in New York who thought he was washed. I mean, if someone's going to blow you away for Pete Alonzo, I mean, he's the sacred cow, but OK. Um, it's not, the Orioles are smart. They know what they're doing. We've seen proof of it. Their record from year to year has definitely not gotten worse. Yeah, no, they're, they said they are said to be open to dealing everyone on the roster, not named Pete Alonzo. And that would apparently include 25 year old shortstop Gunnar Henderson, who did was an MVP candidate two years ago, uh, has not, has been kind of going in the wrong direction at the moment, but I wanted to throw a possibility out to you guys. Would you be willing, and this would be off, this would be really aggressive. Would you be willing to trade one of the Philly starters? And you could kind of pick which one you think would fit the best for Gunnar Henderson in some kind of trade for Gunnar Henderson. Again, 25. Has all the talent in the world. Had an MVP-type season just two years ago. Maybe it's Christopher Sanchez. Maybe it's Jesus Luzardo. Maybe it's Andrew Painter that you could move for Gunnar Henderson. Would a deal like that make sense at all for the Phillies and for the Orioles? Who says no to a potential deal like that first? Or do both teams say, yeah, I think so? Well, if you don't like bounce back candidates, then you're not going to like Gunnar Henderson. And that's two down seasons in a row, again, following this pattern, including last year, which featured some career lows for Gunnar. He's, what, 25? So, you know, you're going to hear that. That's going to be in his favor. But he's got a reputation for, you know, kind of similar things you heard about Turner, that he can make tough plays look easy and easy plays look hard at shortstop defensively. And if you're somebody who doesn't like Alec Boehm's emotionality, well, Gunner's not above slamming a helmet or a bat. If that's going to drive you nuts, you're not going to enjoy that aspect of his personality. He was haunted by some knee and wrist issues at the end of the season, and he's pretty liable to spiraling once he starts struggling, which, again, we've got a couple of guys like that already. So also remember, even if you get a new shortstop, you still have to find a place to put Trey Turner. He doesn't just disappear. Now, Camden Chat said that Gunnar Henderson led the American League with 623 at-bats in 2026. He managed to hit 24 homers and collect 57 total extra base hits, and he led Baltimore in doubles and finished second behind Pete Alonso in hits, runs scored, and home runs. So he's producing. There's offense happening at the shortstop position in Baltimore, even if it's not the best Gunnar Henderson you've ever seen. Like the Phillies, he started slow in 2026, got really hot in August, and then, you know, Ultimately had an even more disappointing season than the year before. So when he struggled, it was because of being too aggressive and his power numbers were starting to plummet. That's where you saw, I think, the biggest drop-off year to year coming into 2026. So if you think you're setting up a decent environment in Philadelphia with all these, you know, changes that you're putting into place, for a young star to come and get his head right, which is clearly a part of acquiring Gunnar Henderson right now, you know, go for it. But paying with your rotation. It's such a heavy cost. Any beat will tell you that the Phillies are a playoff threat, regardless of anything else. All these problems we'd say they have, they will maintain they are a playoff threat because of that rotation. Dave Dombrowski has said he doesn't want to deal a starter for that reason. It would have to be a total lock of a success to pick a guy from this rotation and trade him for somebody else right now because... You're essentially not just trading a starting pitcher. You're trading the Phillies' postseason life raft, essentially. So if you really feel like strongly enough to give that up... To give a guy a chance to come here and bounce back, something guys haven't come here and done in a little while, especially somebody for whom the stakes would be so much higher, where it's like Henderson, this highly touted prospect, this MVP candidate, he's had two really rough years, maybe a change of scenery is the thing that unlocks him. Are the Phillies able to provide a scenery like that? I don't know. You know, I don't think the Phillies are so even that eager to trade him that the Phillies are going to, like, feel like they missed out by, you know, by not acquiring him. So, ultimately, like, would I trade a starting pitcher for Gunnar Henderson? I don't think I would. I would agree. I wouldn't trade a starter for him either. But the thing is that I don't think it would take a starter. The Orioles are, for some reason, in rebuilding mode, which is what you are doing when you're saying everybody but this one guy we like is available. And knowing... Their president of baseball operations, Mike Elias, and how deeply terrible he is at his job. I think he would take a slew of lottery tickets. I think he would take maybe like a low top 10 prospect. He'd take a middling prospect and then a bunch of lottery tickets because if they're looking to rebuild, that's all they want. I don't think they need or want a major league ready player because they'd have to pay him. The point of this is for them to shed as much salary as possible. Because that's what Mike Elias does. You don't hire a guy like that unless you want him to shed salary and make sure the owner makes as much money as possible. David Rubenstein has been loud and clear about his expectations about what buying a baseball team would do for him. He said at one point, it's actually a lot more difficult than I thought, and said, I did it because all of my friends were making so much money at it. And so at this point, I think that the goal is to shed as much salary as possible and to make them an incredibly low-budget team. You know, my thought is that they're headed towards Marlins status. And if that's true, they would take maybe a Brandon Marsh and some guys. For Gunnar Henderson? I don't know. No, no, I don't think. Well, Marsh is going to make. I, I, Marsh is going to make eight. First of all, Marsh is, Marsh is expensive for a platoon player. I mean, I, they're just not, but I, I mean, here's a, if you're telling me they're not going to, they don't want a guy with a huge contract. I don't disagree with that at all. But I mean, the reason I mentioned Sanchez and Luzardo, both those contracts are pretty team friendly, especially Christopher Sanchez's, but I'll go even better for you, Andrew Painter's a kid, he's not making any money. Gage Wood, your top prospect is a, is a starting pitcher is not quite major league ready, but he's getting pretty close. Thank you. A deal is probably going to have to lead with one of those two guys there. I don't think they're going to trade Gunnar Henderson for middling prospects just to just to clear just so they don't have to pay him when he becomes a free agent. I think I think he's got one more. He's had four full seasons. I think he probably has another two seasons before he hits free agency. I think a deal's got to be led with Andrew Painter or Gage Wood, and I'm going to tell you, I would think about it. I would think about leading a deal with Gage Wood or Andrew Painter for Gunnar Henderson. I mean, even in a down year last year, I didn't realize this, he still piled up 3.2 wins above replacement. Even in a down year last year, in 2024, when, again, it was not as good as his '24 season, he was still a five-and-a-half win player for Baltimore in 2025. So, I mean, even... Better than Bryce Harper this year. No doubt about it. And so that's why I'm like, even in a year where he's kind of lousy, he's still getting a three to five wins above replacement. So I am thinking, I mean, we're all very excited about Andrew Painter and what we saw at the very end of the year and in that playoff game. But for most of last year, he was ineffective and I don't know it's a guarantee he's going to be amazing. I mean, I think there's enough risk on both sides there with Andrew Painter and Gunnar Henderson that it would be an interesting conversation between those two teams. I might do it. I don't know if I would do it, but I would give it a lot of thought. There's pluses and negatives. I mean, I kind of ran through a couple of them there. I mean, the interesting part is that the drop-off in power, if that continues, isn't even unforgivable in the Phillies lineup, which has so much power and needs more contact and extra base hits in it. So, like, it's almost kind of a little more of a fit. Him being young, I will go back to, and when I was asked this question, it was... Lozardo and Sanchez, not Painter or Wood being considered, which I do think kind of changes the shading of it a bit. But again, if you're picking from your big playoff string and then taking that, that does put more pressure on than Gunnar Henderson, who's, you know, solves your shortstop problem, but has also got to play shortstop well. This is already a kid who's really talented, but can't get his head on right by all reports. And I don't think the Phillies deserve the blind trust of being able to do that for a player right now. No. They don't. That is true. You're right. Well, it's just an idea. Wild hair. I mean, I don't think a deal like that is going to happen. I don't think a deal like that is close, but that would be creative. It'd be kind of a creative idea, a creative move. It would certainly shake things up quite a bit. And I, you know, would love to see something like that. Something like, wow, I wasn't expecting that. You know, that's kind of that's kind of fascinating that they that they went there. But, you know, in a way, the Luis Arias trade was that last year. And so it would make you feel better about shortstop. You know, despite all the, all the, you know, the things surrounding Gunnar Henderson, the last two years, you would feel better about shortstop and Philly. You'd be, the question would become, where's Turner going? Probably second base. Or, you know, if you want to consider that, that kind of checks off when your outfield, um, roles, uh, in one way or another, if you want to move them out there. But to your point, John, about trading like Andrew Painter, I mean, you know, They're already looking for starting pitching help, and that kind of increases the need there as well. So you are creating another job for yourself by solving the shortstop problem. Yeah, no doubt about it. I mean, it's easier to just go buy some players rather than trade from your major league roster to change things up. So that's probably why Dave doesn't like to do that a whole lot. He doesn't want to trade off his big league roster. Hey, the Orioles are like one of the four teams he makes deals with, and this would certainly be creative and interesting in the ways we keep telling him to be. That's very true. All right. Well, let's let's wrap up there. And, you know, there may be some moves that come this week. We're not expecting it a whole lot. But if there are, you know, we can we can potentially do another podcast this week or something. We'll see how things go. But none of us are expecting a big move to be made this week by the Phillies. And if it's Ha-Seong Kim, I'm sorry, there's not gonna be a bonus podcast for Ha-Seong Kim. That's I don't I don't anticipate that. I mean, maybe if. Maybe if we're bored, we'll do a Ha-Seong Kim emergency special. But let's get to some final thoughts here as we wrap up. Justin, any final thoughts from you? Well, just more and more as we think about what this team is going to look like and who they could go after. Sure. There's been a couple of guys fixated on just as potential trade targets across baseball. Getting some words about him this week was Stephen Kwan again, which, you know, all things, not considering like the contractual aspects or anything, just thinking about him as a potential member of the Phillies does, I feel like kind of take, if you're moving Trea Turner to the outfield, imagine having like a full-time outfielder, first of all, which the Phillies have. None at the moment, I believe someone said, over three. So that'd be great to have a guy who's like, hi, my job is to play in the outfield for the Phillies, and I just do that every night. He was already of interest to the Phillies at the 2025 trade deadline. And, you know, the kind of game he brings, contact and defense in a big way, would be great. Balance, at the very least, an attempt at a counterbalance for a team that is lacking in both of those areas. And again, picking up whatever Trea Turner leaves for him to grab out there also could be part of the plan. Just something that popped up. It'd be cool to see an elite speed, knows what he's doing, experienced center fielder out there again. I don't disagree with that at all. I don't know that I love the fit, but I think I've gotten so ingrained in the Phillies going after a certain kind of player over these last couple of years that I need to start changing the way I think about it. And they do, too. So he's... You're right. He's been linked to the Phillies quite a bit. It would be an interesting move. Liz, final thoughts from you. A Hall of Famer, Willie Mays, is being honored with a stamp next year. He was honored with a stamp previously a few years ago, but this is in the USPS's Black Heritage Series. It is an incredibly cool stamp. John Shea, who writes for the San Francisco Standard, had a hand in helping to Put it together. It's got an orange background, which, according to the AP, represents his three teams, the Mets, the San Francisco Giants and the New York Giants. It's got a signature. He's got a great portrait on the front wearing New York cap and inset right over his shoulder, separating the U from the S.A., which is on the stamp. Is him making the basket catch, which is probably the single greatest outfield play of all time, if not one of the greatest baseball plays of all time. I retweeted John Shea's post from my Blue Sky account. Take a look at it. It's super cool. See if there are any other fun details from the AP. Pat Summitt is also being honored with a stamp. Yep. Um, Women's basketball coach who died sadly in 2016. And she's awesome. They both deserve to be honored with stamps. I do not know what her stamp looks like, but the Willie Mays stamp is really, really cool. So hop on to Blue Sky and take a look at my account, lizrosher at bluesky.com. I think that's it. Whatever it is. Excellent. Cool it. And you can see that stamp. I'm a stamp nerd. I specifically picked Gregory Hines, the black tap dancer, as the stamps for our wedding invitations. I'm a huge fan of his. And I'm a big stamp nerd, as my grandfather was before me. So check it out. And when it comes out, I will tell you about it and you should buy some. Gregory Hines, Billy Crystal starred in the best 80s cop buddy movie that did not get made into a sequel, Running Scared. It is one of the best. Oh my gosh, what a great movie. And they should have made two or three different sequels. It's far better than Lethal Weapon. It was Lethal Weapon before Lethal Weapon came out, I think. And it is so rewatchable. It's an amazing movie. So much fun. Fun connection. Yeah. I've seen that movie once or twice. But I know, like, the... The poster of it by heart, because my dad, who bought 45s as long as they sold them, has a 45 of Shout Sweet Freedom by Michael McDonald, which was part of the movie. That's one of my favorite songs ever. Yeah, mine too. Mine too. Love that song. Oh, I had no idea. Oh, yeah. Sweet Free. Absolutely. I'm a Yacht Rock guy. I know they shouldn't say that. I should not admit that, but I am. No, you should. Be proud. Yacht Rock is great. Terrific stuff. I'm going to finish up. I don't normally do this, but as you guys know, I'm a writer for The Good Fight. I also write Eagles articles for Bleeding Green Nation, both from SBNation.com. I want to just kind of mention to you guys SBNation's new app. I'm going to show it to you here on the phone. But SBNation's got a cool app. It's very cool. I want to just kind of plug it for just a second. I can, um... If you're a fan of SB Nation and all the different team sites, it's really easy to navigate it and get all the teams on there that you follow. I've got a lot of Eagles stuff on here, a lot of Philly stuff on here from The Good Fight, a lot of stuff from Bleeding Green Nation if you're into the Sixers, Liberty Ballers, obviously, Broad Street Hockey if you're a Flyers fan. Um, so. Sometimes apps really suck. You get an app on your phone and it's not navigable or it's not really streamlined or anything like that. The SB Nation app is actually really, really great. Good. It's, it's really easy to find stuff that you like. Um, it's, you can see the game chats really easy. You can start your own conversations on there. So it actually looks like fan posts and stuff. And so I just wanted to, if you, if you kind of like the SB Nation writing, if you like what we're doing at the Good Fight, you like, what we're doing at Bleeding Green Nation, you like Liberty Ballers. You like Broad Street Hockey, or really like any of the sports teams out there. Um, I really would download it. You can get it from Apple. You can get it from Android. Um, I'm a paid contributor, obviously, with The Good Fight and Bleeding Green Nation, and I'm paid to promote the app as well. But I actually downloaded it last month before I was asked to plug it on the podcast because it really is a good app. So just plugging it for a second. Hope you guys check it out, and let me know what you think of it. You can email me, hittingseasonatbillypenn.com. I'd love to hear what you have to think. All right, everybody, that's going to do it for this edition of Hittin' Season. My thanks to Justin and Liz. And, folks, if you want to watch this podcast, of course, we are over at the WHYY YouTube channel, all of our off-season roundtables. And of course, if you're just an audio podcast person, we are at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever it is to get your podcasts. Tell your friends and family members to join in on the offseason fun and what might be a wild few weeks over the next few weeks before the impending lockout that we are all dreading right around the corner. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in. We will talk to you next time right here on Hittin' Season.