In Conversation: Anthony Lovett and Lee Young 对话珍藏：Anthony Lovett 与 Lee Young

So here we are again. We are indeed. The last time we were sitting here was three years ago. In 2023. Yes, we'll be, of course, yes. Talking about the first part of the collection, which was the famille verte. Yep. And I think then you said you were going in a different direction. What direction are you going in now? Why are we sitting here now? I've been thinking for a long time that there's a need to expand the field that I've been collecting in for the last 30 years. A lot of work has been done by other people within this area or many of the narrative themes have already been researched. I also wanted to take time to scale down the collection and I've been looking at other areas which haven't been kind of fully examined and one of the areas that I'd like to move into is the 30 or 40 years before the the Qing Dynasty and that's towards the late Ming and the 1620s 1630s and not just with looking at Chinese ceramics. We're looking at Chinese ceramics for a different perspective i.e. those ceramics which were made for the Japanese market as opposed to other domestic markets or the internal market and external markets and that's one of the areas where I want to move into. There's other factors you know it's three years later I'm three years older. I don't want to be at the time when in 10 years time when you've got to go through that process all these things are for your keeper for a period of time a small period of time really. Also housing the collection as well you know it's a pretty relatively large collection. We are at some stage thinking about scaling down our London home as well so all these factors have come into come into play for for it being at this particular point in time. Just to clear something up, you don't look a day older to me, but they do say nature's kind, your friends grow old with you. Thank you. Thank you. Obviously something changed, you saw something, or you were already anticipating this change perhaps? In other words, you had an interest in this for a few years but hadn't kind of acted upon it in a way? That's very true. I had collected ceramics in fact for the Japanese market, but I'd really collected it from a perspective of what's available in the UK. Many of the pieces, the fine pieces, like Ko-sometsuki, still remain within Japan, which is the area where they were made for. Over the last couple of years, I've been travelling to Japan for a number of reasons, and I've started collecting the pieces which haven't necessarily, in fact, been in the West before. And it's a kind of feel that I don't think has been really fully explored. Yeah, there are people who collect it to a certain extent, who've written about it. Julia Curtis has written about it in a very good book. The Butler Collection, in fact, focuses on an aspect of it as well. But there is no real academic work done on Kosumetsuki. Okay. Detailed academic work, I mean. So I think it's an area which I would like to explore. And I think it's an area to collect. And also be realistic about it as well. You know, the period in which I've collected for the last 30 years has been... These things were... More available 30 years ago, the period I've been collecting, the transitional period, than the early Kangxi period. These pieces are not really available now on the kind of scale they were in the past. And when they are available, they are incredibly expensive. So Kosumetsuki at the moment, it is priced at a more collectible level. So that's one of the things which has played into it as well. So, by the sounds of things, maybe a book in the offing at some point. Yes, as I said, I'd like to explore it more fully. Perhaps collect some of the more rare pieces which have been available in the past. And do you think you have... ...satisfied your appetite. I mean, you talk about fewer and fewer pieces coming onto the market and, of course, them being more expensive. I mean, that naturally will happen. The less of something that's available, the more people want it. The shortage of people desiring that object doesn't shrink, but if the market itself shrinks, then those things naturally become more expensive. But do you think you've kind of... Quenched your appetite or your thirst really in terms of you've gone not as far as you can but as far as you want to with the current collection? I think I have yes you know I've been collecting for for over 30 years I was collecting at a time when things were available and I've been able to you know this period of Thank you. collecting is more fully explored now, the Catherine Butler's and Teresa's book on on this period of ceramics is very very detailed there is much more knowledge in the marketplace people have taken a greater interest in it and you know this knowledge spills over into other people so in terms of i've been very fortunate in being able to find some very some interesting pieces and so i think i have been satisfied with it and as i said you know these things are with you for a short period of time And there comes a time at which you've got to let them go. And it's been more difficult. I think it's been more difficult with this part of the collection than it was with the family there. I think I said with the family there that my main focus has always been on the transitional and then we moved into the family there by being prompted to a certain extent by the narrative scenes and the availability. So yeah, I think things move on. Yeah, yeah, no, they do. And it's nice to be able to kind of move on with them, really, isn't it? Now, I'm going to say that, you know, you and I spent a very enjoyable kind of, you know, 10 days in Japan, just a few months ago. And Something I hadn't thought about until now and when I kind of think back, you know, in terms of the pieces that regularly come up in Europe that have found their way here, Koso Metsuki, and the pieces we were seeing over there, I didn't necessarily see a sort of... difference in kind of you know the pieces that were attracted you know that obviously the Europeans were attracted to as opposed to the Japanese and there was a lot of sort of similarity and a lot of crossover. I appreciate that some of these things aren't unique and there are many similar examples but do you think there was a sort of similarity in what we were seeing or do you think that actually there was a particular taste that the kind of Westerners went for with when they were collecting Koso Metsuki very different from that of the Japanese? I think that Size, to a certain extent, plays an importance in what we were collecting or what we see in the West. We don't see a lot of the pieces that were made, in fact, particularly for the tea ceremony because there was no real need, in fact, to have them in the West. You know, the things like a miso-sashi, which is the water container used to, in fact, fill the kettle for the tea ceremony. You don't find those to a large extent in the West. Yes, okay, with a few dealers in that particular subject, but there aren't many, in fact, on the marketplace. So I think that there is a wider variety within Japan of the... The larger vessels or the more unique parts of the tea ceremony than just simply the cup or the chawan and the small sweetmeat dishes. I mean I have to say you know I've been to Japan before but never for any kind of meaningful length of time and I certainly wasn't able you know certainly the people that we met over there you know other enthusiasts other collectors and that we were able to spend time in the museums you know what was wonderful there I think is you know seeing how many pieces you know are available I mean it's not you know don't get me wrong they kind of mass producing these in the way that they were today but it was really interesting to see You know, how enthusiastic they were about kind of collecting Kosunotsuki in the first place. Of course, it was made for their market and how passionate they were. That's the word I should use rather than. And, you know, the variety that we saw in many of these places. Yeah, the variety is amazing. And I think the kind of condition is amazing as well, you know, because No, no, no. many of these pieces are in prime condition, with the exception of the You know, the fritting around the rim, which you'd expect for that period of time. But there, you've got to think that the... The tea ceremony is so kind of special to the Japanese and each piece accordingly is each piece is accorded a special treatment you know they're kept in tobacco boxes they're covered with the cloths etc etc so you see they're in good condition and I think what you see in Japan which you don't necessarily see here is you get the the variety in the scenes On those pieces that we, I think we've forgotten, or not even forgotten, I don't realise the variety of scenes, you know, you don't just get the landscape scenes, you do get the narrative themes, and that's in a way what kind of attracted me to it as well, that you do get those scenes, which is what initially prompted me to start collecting the transitional period, you know, by the Chinese. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things that struck me and made the whole kind of presentation in a way of, you know, even when we were visiting dealers, you know, actually when the boxes came out, they were in those lovely kind of, every piece was in a lovely Japanese, you know, original Tomobako collector's box. And it was in the silk, it was in the pouch, it was, and it was the kind of process of that wonderful, you know, you almost kind of. It's palpable when they're kind of taking, you know, undoing the, you know, the tie, the knot and so on, on top, and then this piece is presented to you. I mean, it's like Christmas Day, isn't it? It's a very kind of special occasion because not many pieces, it's not very often that you see a piece of, or a good piece of Kintsugi you can see in the window. You know, you tend, in fact, to have to go into the store and, in fact, speak, in fact, to the dealer. I mean, this is the whole, this is all the whole presentation, you know, the box itself, Tomobako box. the way it has the where they come and i didn't know this until i asked it was the way that they're paper lined on the outside and that's to protect it from the sun so that any kind of calligraphy underneath is not it doesn't fade away and the way that they're presented they even down to the kind of the string that they're using for tying the the Tomobako box up with it's all very kind of unique and very special and the whole process of going it's a kind of joy to go into to go in to buy something because there There is a great pride in service and how these are presented, which you see a great deal in Japan anyway, the pride they have in service. But yeah, it's a special, it's kind of a special occasion. It really was. And, you know, you nearly got me killed on a number of occasions when you saw something in a window and said, oh, what's that? And we kind of darted across the room, darted across the street. But, you know, actually, and I, you know, I'd say this is probably a bit of gamesmanship on a lot of dealers, well, I don't want to sell that. But actually, in a couple of those situations, you know, where they were showing us something particularly special, I really got the sense that they really did want to sell it to you. I don't want to speak at your thing. There isn't the kind of... There isn't this, you know, this kind of this is my price kind of scenario that is their price you know they think they've kind of set you offered you in fact a good price to a certain extent they seem slightly offended in fact if you want to pay less for it because it is very special in fact to them and they actually do think that if it is worth that you know worth the price that they've been asking for so yeah it's not uncommon if you kind of To come out of not having bought something because you you couldn't agree on what price you wanted to go for. Yeah I mean they were all those kind of collectors before they were kind of dealers. Yes absolutely yeah yeah you know they they they yeah that they were quite happy to see you yeah equally yeah if you don't buy it then you know there's no um they would keep it yeah keep it themselves and they'd bring it out for somebody else. So, I mean, if you were, I mean, look, when I was there, I would say through you, actually, I've probably handled more Koso-metsuki than, you know, I had before, if you see what I mean. And certainly on that trip, we were shown some extraordinary, extraordinary things. And, you know, some of those things weren't for sale, but we were lucky enough to be able to handle them. And we got to see some sort of private museums and various things. I think that's what we're looking for. I had a wonderful trip. I mean, if you were picking up a piece of Koso-metsuki for the first time, in other words, you'd never picked up a piece of Koso-metsuki before. I mean, to me, it just has a kind of, I think if you were blindfolded now, having handled it so much, you could, it's just got a kind of, it's just got that soft, you know, kind of almost sort of soapy, waxy feel to the porcelain, which to me seems quite unique to Koso-metsuki. Do you get the same? Yeah, I do on the kind of finer pieces and you do get this waxy kind of feel to the porcelain itself. And you do get the, if it's a good piece, you get those lovely vibrant colours that you did during the Kangxi period as well in terms of the blue. And very kind of, you know, very novel. Where have they been created in that? You know, I love this idea of things not being symmetrical Yes, you know the same symmetry that you get within within the piece kind of adds something to it and likewise. That's what? That's what the Japanese like all the Japanese tea masters like this is symmetry in fact pieces I love that because there is a there is always a twist in fact to the way it's been presented Yes, that kind of imperfection makes perfection. Yeah, it makes it unique. Yeah, it makes it completely unique. I can remember a lot of sort of dishes that people may look at and think, why is that kind of, you know, that way, and it's three times the price of that one. Well, it's not really warped, it's been made that way. You know, it's about that kind of relationship with the natural world and things. Yeah, yeah. The other thing I will say, you know, I don't think I've ever drunk sake out of a museum. Yes, I remember that night, yes. Kosumetsuki cup before. There's photographic evidence of that. There is indeed. I was given it with their blessing, so. Yeah, I think they took it off me after two or three more sakes, but no. It's a wonderful trip. I mean, what might be nice, if you can, at some point is possibly, you know, we could pick a piece of Kosumetsuki and maybe we could talk through that. And you know, just to show people kind of where you're going. And then the one thing I'd love to do during this sort of chat is, you know, obviously we're going to talk about the pieces that are coming up in November 27. But there is one piece that's a very special piece that actually we're... And I don't think many people will realise, I mean, there will be a lot of people like us in this world that realise you can't just sometimes look at a piece, and many experts will look at a piece and not know the narrative, and there's a lot of kind of research, academic... I think it is largely the case when people, in fact, will see a piece and they don't know the narrative. There are some pieces where the You know, the narrative can be easily viewed, or easily understood, or recognised, it's because that particular narrative is on several pieces which have already been identified. But there are many, many, in fact I would say the majority of pieces, where at first instance you don't recognise, in fact, the scene. And that has been, you know, that was the first thing that attracted me to this particular period. And we are now going through the process with various researchers. You know, Dr. Harvey Chan has been particularly helpful in this respect of where we're trying to recognize these pieces and put a... Put the narrative to the image, if you like. And I think that's relatively important. I think it's important. When passing them on, I'd like to kind of pass them on with more information. ...than I had when I initially bought them. Which in many ways is probably what attracted you to them in the first place. Yeah, it is. That's exactly what attracted me to them. The fact that they're not just kind of pretty things. They had a story to them. The reason where that story comes from and the reason why that story was picked. So I think we'll pick that one out, because I know what it is, you know what it is, and I think it might be quite nice, I mean, I don't know, what are we, two-thirds of the way through, possibly, you know, there are some sort of suggestions of what that might be, but maybe we could talk about that piece. So I just think so people can understand, and then hopefully by the time we get to November 27, we've answered it, and, you know, this is a sort of global thing, so not only are we, we've got great research here, there's obviously great research that we can... offer in China so there'll be a there's a lot going into the catalogue more than maybe people think. Yeah there is there's a lot of work going into the catalogue yeah because most of those most of the pieces or majority of the pieces have narrative scenes to them and then if not a narrative scene then a notion of symbolism and what that symbolism means so yeah that takes a lot of research. I know I asked you this question before with the... I think I said, which piece would you save in a fire last time, actually. And I think I know the answer to that. But November 27 is not that long away. Are you going to find it, do you think, harder this time? In other words, is this going to be... you know a more of an emotional journey for you do you think with this collection than last or equal or no no i think this uh you know this uh what's coming up now uh in this part is the core of the collection whereas i never kind of viewed the family of birds as core to the collection this is where i started this is where the main focus has been in fact for the last The last 20, 25 years. And so I think it will be much... Many of these pieces I bought, you know, a long time ago. They've been with me for a long... Or been with us for a long time. And so I think there is going to be... It's going to be more emotional this time or more difficult to let them go than it was last time. You didn't want to finish it the last time. Yeah, no. There's no going back. Once we've printed the catalogue, once the hammer's fallen, it's too late. You can't go back. It's been something I've been thinking about for a long time. I keep harking back to this thing, you know, nothing's in fact forever and I'd like to have, like other people, to have the same kind of enjoyment out of them that I've been able to have. Over the last years, which I'm sure they will. But do you think you'll find it? I suspect you'll find it easier, given that, you know, once a collector, always a collector. You've kind of found yourself a direction. That's absolutely right. You know, I couldn't. It would be a nice notion to think that you could give up collecting. But I think it is without doubt a disease. And it's also difficult to give up something you've been doing 30 years as well. So, that's one of the reasons why I started collecting inside Kusumetsuki, because I wanted another, having to explore, having parted with what we have now. I sort of touched on this earlier, but do you possibly recall when you first saw or touched or picked up a book on Kusumetsuki and thought, oh, that's quite interesting? Yeah, I think, you know, Julie Coates has a very good book called Trade and Transformation, I think it's called, which she explores in detail, in fact, many of the pieces of which there are some in the... Here within the UK and US, but, you know, the number of them have come from, gone through the Japanese channels and ended up in museums here or in the US. And so that was really the kind of first book that I looked at. I mean, that was only really in fact because, you know, Julie Coates is very famous. Well, no. It's well known, in fact, for her own 17th century Chinese ceramic collection, Transitional. And this one was one of her interests as well, or is one of her interests. And so that's the reason I was drawn to that particular book, because there are other books which she's written which have been of equal interest. Come on then, should we go have a look? Yeah, let's go on through. So here we are, the cover jar I was talking about. So when we spoke to Dr. Ivy Chang this morning, Well, I'll let you explain, but she thinks she's some way there, but you clear that up. Yes, I mean, this has kind of been a piece that's been intriguing me, in fact, for years, and no one really has known the scene itself. But Ivy has now proposed that she has a possibility of three scenes, and it may well be. And so she's, rather than give us any indication at this stage what each one is, she is going to do some further investigation into it. And then hopefully within a couple of moments or something before it comes up in part two, or shall I say a much clearer idea of what the narrative is, the scene is, and any kind of symbolism associated with it as well. And what she also talked about is maybe kind of, you know, collaboration between, you know, sort of Beijing and also some input from Beijing and Paris. No, that's right. It may be that she can't single-handedly do this. So then the possibility of, in fact, of looking in Beijing within the libraries, various libraries, our libraries, and also the association with the consultant that she has in Paris. That's going to be an exciting journey. At the worst, we can give you three possibles. Yes. And then you'll have to sort of piece them together. But, you know, that sort of thing, I mean, that's fascinating. I mean, there'll be a lot of people, hopefully there'll be a lot of people watching this video that don't realise that, you know, that even, you know, and we're talking about some great academics here, some great minds, you know, who specialise in this sort of subject, and they can't look at that immediately and know... And know which scene it is. Yeah, I mean, because they took the scenes, in fact, from a wide range, in fact, of novels, you know, through The Three Kingdoms, which is in, you know, in two volumes, Williams and Sirk. And the thing is, within many of those chapters, not just one thing happens, you know, there's a whole range of action taking place within any one chapter. So, you know, there's a whole range of possibilities within each particular chapter, but there is... There is, within Beijing itself, within the museums there, there are block prints of the various scenes, various chapters within the Three Kingdoms, so they may be able to isolate this one. I'm waiting for the next chapter of, you know, this, but look. You know, when that was painted in 1640 or, you know, they knew what it was. You know, they've got that scene. Yeah, they've got that scene somewhere. They didn't just conjure it up. Yeah. So it's out there. Yeah. We've just got to find it. Yeah. So I can't wait for the next chapter of this one. So look, we talked a lot about Kosumetsuki. So I tell you what, I'll be your glamorous assistant. I'll hold this and perhaps you could sort of talk us through it. And we talked a lot about... touch and feel and so on. I'd love to hear your thoughts. You can see this piece has that kind of waxy glaze in fact to it. Also it's very thin, it's very thickly potted. You can feel the weight of it for that kind of dish. It's got the Buddhist symbol of the elephant with the lotus in its trunk and the boy climbing aboard. Very sought-after patterning within Japan itself. You see what I mentioned about the clay being, you know, not very well segregated, and this is what happens in the firing, you get the black spots in fact coming to the surface. Charmingly they're really kind of decorated, it's almost decorated like a basket. It's around the outside you've got this decoration which is like a basket weave decoration and it would be used as a usually definitely within a tea ceremony but probably during a put on sweetmeats and that kind of thing for during the during the ceremony itself. You do get this if you kind of hold it kind of level you see there is a kind of slight Warping, if you like, in fact, to one particular side, which in fact creates the asymmetrical piece itself. These particular dishes, you do get them slightly larger and you do get them where the... The warpiness, if you like, is very much more accentuated, so the the fall will almost come within the dishes. Which actually makes that more rare. Yeah, it's very rare, yeah, and the more bendy you've got, the more valuable it is, which is quite unique to this type of porcelain. Yeah, you know, because actually in Chinese porcelain, that would actually be seen as a defect. Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, they would think this was a defect in itself. They would say this was definitely been warped within the kiln and not purposely. And actually has a rather nice Kind of underside as well, yeah. There's a little bit of firing here. Yes, it just has that lovely blue. Really waxy, kind of nice feel to it. It's a TV piece. I was going to talk about that. I mean, you know, you might have to explain to everybody what you mean by a TV piece, but I was just going to... Well, a TV piece is that because on this floor we have a TV room as well, and so I have this habit of when I'm watching TV and slightly distracted, then I like to come in here and pick up just a smaller piece, not particularly that size, but a small piece, and take it and kind of play with it, and when I watch it, look at it more closely. When I was practicing, I was just kind of in this room. So Midsummer Murders and Kosumetsu-ke. All right. Well, look, time, as we say, is ticking on. There's a lot to do between now and November 2027. I'm really excited. The first time people can see a little glimpse of what is going to be in the sale will be at Marchants in November this year, 26. We're going to select about 15 pieces. Peace is out. from part two collection so you know come and see us we'll be there we've yet to finalize exactly which pieces they are but there'll be some great pieces there on exhibition so do come and see us yeah they do all right thank you thank you that's great fun