Judicial crisis is 'weakening Poland' in a 'very unfortunate' time, says former EU Commissioner Jourová

And now back to Europe. Poland is still struggling to resolve a constitutional crisis that has pitted judges against judges, president against courts, and prime minister against president. Years after the EU launched its unprecedented rule of law battle with Poland, the question remains, can judicial independence be restored without creating yet another constitutional confrontation? Joining me now from London is former EU Justice Commissioner Vera Jourova, who was at the center of that battle to assess where Poland stands today. Good morning to you. Good morning. So, you spent years confronting the Polish government over judicial independence. How worried are you today about the situation? Well, indeed, I spent 10 years always with this issue and it was maybe the most difficult part of my portfolio because Poland Europe needs to be strong, Europe needs strong Poland and now the current conflict is weakening Poland in a very unfortunate situation, considering the geopolitical situation. It was not the case so much when the conflict started in 2015. And can you have an independent judiciary when judges themselves are divided over which other judges and institutions are legally legitimate? This judicial schisma, if I can call it like that, is very unpleasant and it is decreasing the trust of people in justice and in independent judiciary in Poland. So these two lines. of judges, which is not only the case of the Constitutional Tribunal, we see it in the whole judiciary system in Poland, is something which is necessary to solve. And it is also said by the European courts, there are very clear messages. Constitutional tribunal is not legally established at this moment, and you have to correct things. This is what the current government tries to do. Would you say that Poland has reached the point where there is no longer one universally accepted judicial system? Poland is in this situation over years because there was a cascade of different grievances since 2015 and the accumulation of problems in Poland in the judiciary is something which the European Court called a systemic breach of the rule of law. So it's broader than just problems in the justice system and it requires corrections. Right. Does the European Union have the legal and political leverage to force Poland to resolve this crisis? Well, EU, of course, has the Article 2 in the treaty, which says that each member state has to respect and promote and guarantee the rule of law in the country. And so it was the main leverage for the Commission, not only in my times, but also now. The Commission already made a declaration. Mr. McGrath, the Commissioner of Justice, said clearly that a constitutional tribunal needs to be able to function in accordance. With the Polish Constitution and the case law of the Court of Justice. So this is the warning from the side of the Commission. And I cannot predict what steps will follow.