Camino de Santiago: Finding Your Path with Christopher Parsons

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Real Work. I'm Jennifer Tarle. Today's guest is Christopher Parsons. He is the founder of College Planning Center, and he is joining us again for a second conversation. The first time Christopher was on the show, we talked about college admissions, planning ahead, and helping families navigate a process that can often feel overwhelming. This time, I want to go in a different direction. Christopher is passionate about walking the Camino de Santiago, and he is also committed to helping students who may not otherwise have access to professional college admissions support. So today we're talking about journeys, both literal and figurative. We'll talk about what the Camino has taught him about life, purpose, and perseverance, and why he believes every student should have access to guidance as they figure out their own path forward. So join me in welcoming Christopher back to the podcast. Hi, Christopher. Welcome back. Hey, glad to be back. So great to have you. Okay, let's just jump right in. Yeah, that's the best way to do it. What is the Camino for someone who doesn't know? Well, the Camino is a pilgrimage in Spain, or actually there's numerous paths to get to Santiago. You know, some that go through Spain, some France, some Portugal. I mean, there are lots of paths, and I guess it's kind of a good metaphor for a lot of paths to get to the destination. So that's kind of a driving force behind what we do is, you know, figuring out your path, your way. And I walked the Camino the first time. Over 30 years ago, and I was a grad student. I had a chance to do it. It sounded exciting and it kind of changed my life in a lot of ways because I did it. Like I said, nobody, I went on my own. I went not knowing what to expect. And I just was one of those kind of, to me, it was a very spiritual walk that gave me a lot of time to think about my future and then doing it again. Just about, what, five years ago now, four years ago with my own son who graduated from high school, and that was his graduation present. I did it with Holden, and it was like bookends those different parts of my life and the different ways I see the Camino as a young man and as an older man now and seeing it with my own child. And it was, you know, just it offers so much that it's hard to explain without doing it all the ways in which it kind of feeds into, you know, life lessons. Okay. So that's interesting. So is there like a, a book that you buy on the Camino? How do you know? There are a lot of books and you can research. And, you know, that's kind of one of the, I talked to you, I've mentioned this to you before, but I'm going to be starting a podcast called Finding Your Camino. And that's all about finding what path is the right path for you to take on the Camino and listening to actual pilgrims who have done it and their stories and what to do to prepare for it and what their experiences are like. But also it's a play on the path and finding your path in life. And, you know, for me, I think the older I get, the more I've done my job as a. Teacher first and now as a college consultant is listening and really listening to kids as they try to find their path. And realizing that there's so much personal experience that I have that I want to inject, but realizing they have to kind of figure those things out for themselves. And that over-helping sometimes is really not helping. Oh, that is so hard as a parent, isn't it? And that was really hard to do. And when I went back to the community with my son, and that was very hard for us. And, you know, we butted heads along the way. We spent a lot of time together, and we walked apart for some times, and I think sometimes it's just, I wouldn't change it for the world, because it was an amazing experience, but that was a microcosm of raising my son and raising my children, and it's never easy, but it's always rewarding in different ways that you don't expect, and the Camino just opens your eyes to a lot of things. Like I said, it's a great microcosm for just your life's journey in general. So I know this is like a really big question, but what do you think that you learned when you were there the first time that you wouldn't have learned just going through your regular life? I think that, you know, I grew up in a small, a very small town in upstate South Carolina. And, you know, I was, you know, to say I was sheltered, I guess would be an understatement. I mean, it's a sheltered community. Everybody knows everybody. I think just being comfortable putting myself out there on my own. And not having a plan and just doing it like literally on, you know, on the spur of the moment, to me, that just showed me that I can handle anything. It wasn't something that there wasn't anything I couldn't handle. And I was willing to to literally step outside of my comfort zone, which I preach with my students a lot and my own student and my own children. And that, to me, I think showed me that. Life is exciting and not knowing where you're going sometimes and walking that path. And the Camino has markers all along the way that guide you, but you get lost sometimes. Sometimes you miss a marker. Sometimes you're not paying attention. Sometimes you have a choice to go one way or another. One way is harder. One way is easier. And I mean, come on, that's Robert Frost right there. I was just thinking of that. Yeah, exactly. Are you going to take the harder path or are you going to take the easier path? And so... I just love that. I love that, you know, that I didn't know what to expect, but yet along the way. I got so many glimpses into humanity, into people, and there were times you would walk with somebody for 30 minutes or an hour, and you would never, and you know you'd never see them again the rest of your life. You know, that was it. 30 minutes of interaction with somebody that you're never going to come across again, and to me, I was just fascinated by that, that, you know, that time where you get to spend with somebody that you impacted them for that brief moment, and then you're never going to see them again, and they'll never see you. You wonder what kind of impact you had on them, and it's just kind of, I thought it was pretty cool. Is there anyone that you remember? I remember lots of people from both times, and I walked the Camino, ironically, the first time with one young man, Carlos, who didn't speak any English, but spoke some Dutch. And then a Dutch man who spoke Spanish and English, and so we had the way to communicate, and they were... And I think what I realized the first time, and I realized even more the second is, and this is a question that everybody asks is like, why are you walking the Camino? Why? And everybody has a different reason. You know, the, the older gentleman who was, uh, just got divorced. He was from, from, from the Netherlands. He was. Just kind of searching and I was in grad school and I had thought I knew everything probably and didn't know anything. That confidence in you. Yeah. And the other, other younger, other younger gentleman, Carlos was just, he was Spanish and just felt like it was something he had to do. It was something that all the, all the, all his friends had done. So he was going to do it too. And we just, along the way, we just found a way to communicate, even though we didn't speak the same language, even the, and there were just so many moments that transcended It's a language that we're... They were very memorable for me that, you know, stuck with me for years and years and still are very vibrant. And the second time, similarly, we we met. A Irish couple that were in their 70s. Mm-hmm. And it's not uncommon to meet somebody and then to go on and then meet them again. But four times along the Camino, and we had stopped at different, I mean, and then we ran into them and then we finished and ran into them again at the end. It was just, to me, that was really wild. That is different paces, different stops, different everything was could not be more different. And the way we are and where we are in our life in general, but we continue to run into them over and over again. And we had supper with them one night. It was it was to me, it just just personified the, you know, the unexpected pleasures of the Camino that I think are, you know, that I feel like in some ways. People have just kind of forgotten that community. And I see that everybody shuts themselves into their social media world and, you know, they go home and they close their doors and there's no, there's none of that community that with the capital C that I think is important. Everything's about community on the Camino. You're talking to people, you're interacting with people that you might not come across in your normal day-to-day activity, but it's just so rich and vibrant, the stories that you hear and interaction that you have along the way. So do you, I'm curious because I don't know the answer to this. Do you have to? be religious to do this? Is there like a mass component? Oh, no. Okay. Oh, no, absolutely not. There's plenty of people that are spiritual, but not religious or religious. And anybody that wants to go out there and just learn something more about themselves can do the Camino. And it's, I mean, think about, I mean, imagine this, Jennifer, how many times would you say you have an entire day where you didn't speak to anybody and you just... We're just walking. I mean, no connection to social media, no connection to a computer or whatever. And that alone, I mean, I had a whole day where it was just my son and I talking. And I don't think, I can't imagine another time where we would have that, you know, in the normal day-to-day activity we have now. And then when you realize that that's just something that's really special. Yeah. Yeah. And when you did it the first time, there probably were no cell phones or they weren't ubiquitous like they are now. Oh, no cell phones and no. And I had a, you know, the old I had a, you know, an old fashioned film I mean, film camera, you know, and there was no there were no pictures with my cell phone. There were no nothing, no connection there. And so it was very different the first time, literally. Yeah. And this in the second time. So you kind of touched on this, that. It helps you think about your path and making decisions, being on the Camino. How has this helped you help students in your day job, let's call it? Well, there's just, there's so many aspects of like just a single day on the Camino that you can, you know, there was a... Either a book or something written, like everything I need to know I've learned in kindergarten, I think was a long time ago. But I think there's a lot of things that everything I could feel the same way about the Camino. Like you have to start that. We had to start at five in the morning. So you have to wake up early. You got to get an early start because it's hot and you know that you want to beat the sun, you know, and you have to wear even simple lessons like wearing socks or shoes you've broken in and wearing comfortable socks. And there were so many things I'm walking along the way. I was like, those are good lessons that, you know, you have to plan ahead. You have to persevere through the hard time on the path where you feel tired and you don't want to go on. And there were times you'd get towards the end and you think you're almost there and you come around the corner and there's a huge incline. You have to go for a mile to get to your final destination. You're like, oh, God, I'm not going to make it. I have to stop. And you but you push through and you and you and you realize along the way I can do hard stuff. You know, I can overcome that obstacle. I can deal with being tired. I can deal with, you know, being sore. And you wake up the next day and you have to ask yourself, do I want to do that again? And you're like, yeah, I do. And so that's where I started saying, well, that feels like life to a certain extent. There are days I wake up, oh, God, you know, I'm so tired. I don't know if I can make it through this day. I have so many meetings scheduled. I have so many things I have to do. But yet we find a way to get through it because it matters. And, and. And that, to me, I felt like. I started seeing a lot of my life, more so probably the second time than the first, realistically. The first time, I was just bright-eyed, and I just thought the world was my oyster, and there were no... But now that I've gone through all the ups and downs of life and the struggles, the second time was more, I would say, probably more fulfilling in a way because of what I've gone through and what I've dealt with. And so I started seeing all those things more. I mean, there were times when... I walked ahead of my son, and I got lost, and I realized that sometimes he might know the direction better than I do. I thought that I had blazed the path for him, and really, sometimes listening to our children might help us stay on a better path for ourselves, and we think we know all the answers, but sometimes getting a little bit ahead of myself, I missed a sign, or I missed one of the The path indicators and he would catch me. Oh, you're dad, you're going the wrong way. I was like... That's a tough one that you have to start switching roles and listening to your children. How does that impact your coaching with parents now that you've done that? You know, it really, it, it, it makes me take a breath, a pause and, and, and sometimes, And I try to be good at it. Understanding when students need me to step in with the parents and not in a negative way, but in a, you know, just, you know, take a step back, take a breath. Let's meet. Your child has this under control. They're feeling over pressured by you or they're feeling like, you know, expectations are beyond their what they can what they feel like they can do. And so a lot of times it's just about reminding families or parents that, you know, this isn't their path. And this is and that's a hard thing for me as a parent to hear when I had to hear it from my son. It was sometimes it can be humbling and sometimes it can be a little bit, you know, you have to to take a step and realize that, you know, I don't have all the answers, even though I've had the experiences. Those were my experiences. And now they're having new ones that I don't understand. And so maybe they have a better perspective even than I think they do. And so if they were to tell me, for example, I might not want to go to college, maybe that's not a bad thing. Or maybe if they were to tell me I don't want to go to that college as a parent, that maybe I should listen to their reasoning. And sometimes parents have to hear that from me before they listen to it from their child. And so I think that's one thing I've learned is that I have to be the voice of reason sometimes And explain sometimes when. Things are going off the rails a little bit that it might not be because of the child, but because of the parent. That must be a really difficult conversation, but very needed conversation because we always have such hopes and dreams and expectations for our kids, but they're different people. The world changes and that must be really difficult. I think it's interesting that you have... Conversations, being a college counselor, that maybe this isn't for you. That honesty is, I'm impressed by it, and I think it's required, but I don't necessarily know that everybody would do that. In my All-In College Planning, the nonprofit that I started, we have whole units on different paths, the trade path, the technical school path. I mean, there are a lot of... Like the Camino, a lot of paths to get to your destination. And me, I started as thinking I was going to law school when I went. I mean, my path has changed so many times and so many different directions that it would be wrong of me to think that a student is going to have a straight path when mine has been so all over the place. That's a really good point. My path has not been straight either. And I thought I was going to be a fashion designer, which is ridiculous because I can't draw. I'm not laughing because it's fun, because it's crazy. It's funny because I cannot draw. But that's very true is that I think it's important for us as parents to remember sometimes we have changed and it's all been for the best And worked out. So I love that you brought this up. So you're a college admissions counselor, planner, and you've started this nonprofit. Tell me a little bit about your nonprofit and what you do. Yeah, All-In College Planning. It's just what it says. I feel like everyone should have access to the services we give for our private clients. And the truth is most people don't have the resources to utilize what we do privately for a college planning center. And so I designed a curriculum and along with a good friend of mine, Wilton, who is a counselor in Arizona, Oh, no, a guidance counselor. Originally, now he's a college planner as well, who is from Hawaii, and he's seen firsthand how hard it is in communities where college almost seems unattainable and how you have generational poverty that results from lack of education, lack of a plan. And so we really wanted to make sure that we had something that we set up where all students could have access to it. But what we've come to find out is a whole nother challenge is once they feel like it's not a possibility, it's hard to even get them, if it's for free, to access it and to buy into it because they need people that are championing them, that are cheering them along and helping them realize that the possibilities are endless for them too because they've grown up thinking that they're not. And a lot of them, so that their path is predetermined, and that there is no deviation, and that's, or worse yet, that their path is going to lead in a direction that might deviate from, you know, what we consider to be societally, you know, acceptable, you know, where they can, so it's a whole, it's been a challenge in a different way, because You know, reaching students who've never had anybody really, you know, pat them on the back or really tell them that there's possibilities is they might start thinking there's not, so it's hard to get to them sometimes. And so that's why we started all in college planning. I think it's hard for people who have always had access to college support for getting into college. They know a lot of people have gone to college. They've been to a college. They know what that is. When I was applying to college, really the big reason that I applied, my parents believed in me, a great family. My brother was like, well, what are you going to do? And I was like, I have no idea. So just that one person asking me like, what's your plan? What are you going to do? No one even just asked me that question. And I willy nilly applied to schools because of what he told me. So I'm very passionate about Helping students that might not even know it's a possibility. And I think that's really, again, it's hard to wrap your mind around in this world where it seems like everyone goes to college. So if there's someone out there like me, what can we do to help these students? Be a mentor, you know, be an advocate. You know, if you see students like that that need to have someone really, you know, inspire them, you know, inspire those people and explain to those students, you know, that the possibilities are not restrictive. There are a lot of things they can do. And I think being a mentor and for all in college planning, finding people to mentor those kids and be someone they can look up to, I think that is the first. To me, that's the first directive to get them excited about the possibilities. Because what happens is, and this is across the board, is I think we do a really bad job of answering the why question in education. Why do I have to do that? Why do I have to do this? Why does this matter? And when you don't answer the why's, I think kids eventually just get bored with the whole setup. And I think the more, I think the more digital it becomes the worst, the worst we're doing advancing the why, you know, we just, we just plug them in. It's almost like they're the robots now, you know, and, and they're just going through the motions. This, I've got to get this done. And so you got a bunch of kids with high GPAs that don't learn anything. Yeah. They're not learning. They're not, not critical thinkers. They're not thinking for themselves. They're not learning why they're doing the things. They just know what they have to do to get the grades, to get to school. And they only know why they're going. To college or why or what they're going to do when they get there. So it's like a game almost. Oh, yeah. And and as parents, I think we followed that. We fall in line the same way, thinking that's just the next step. The schools have this figured out. The counselors are. And by the time we realize the counselors don't even know my student's name, much less, you know, what he or she wants to do, then it's too late sometimes. And are not too late, but it becomes more of a challenge than it has to be. And those... same counselors, whether they're doing it knowingly or unknowingly, are still making a lot of these students feel like, you know, college isn't a realistic path, if that's what they wanted. And so our line isn't college planning isn't to say that everybody goes to college. It's that everybody should have the opportunity if they want to, to go to college and that it is possible. How do people find you if there's a student out there in high school who's watching this? Does the school district buy your program? Does the student come to you? Well, the students can come to us directly, but the schools can also reach out to us. And we do, we set up programs with the schools at the end. you know, to keep it, the cost as low as possible so that the students don't have to pay anything. But the schools have the resources to put into programs like ours that it's a great resource to help the guidance counselors. And they can come, they can go to allincollegeplanning.org. And that is a, that is a great place to go to see the, the resources we have in the ways that we're, we're assisting those counselors and those students figure out the why and what they're I love, I love that because One of my issues is I think that a lot of schools try very hard, but it's either, are you going to be a doctor, a teacher, like they're sort of this, these like little paths. And I think it's really hard to show kids everything that's out there. How do kids explore? careers. How does that work? Well, I mean, one of the, I mean, I know there's been a lot of, you know, scare mongering when it comes to AI, but AI, one of the good things about AI is you can just say. Chat GPT or Claude, tell me about, you know, architectural design. I love it. I mean, you could go and just start exploring. There's classes you can take for free. There's chat room. I mean, there is a wealth of information out there at their fingertips. And so, yes, I can see some of the downsides to AI, but the upsides are also real and are right there, too, for kids to begin exploring all these things. You know, and... To bring it back to the Camino a little bit, when the Camino, they had these maps that you could, depending on the trail you're going, you could see, plan your route all along. Kids need to have that too when it comes to their own path. And it doesn't mean their path won't change along the way, but they need to see the choices they're going to have so that as they're planning it out, if there's going to be a deviation, they'll understand why they're making that change. And I think one of the worst things that I come across in public education in particular is this idea, this self-defiance that we do it already. We already do those things. We do it for free. What your company does is y'all are somehow preying on these kids' insecurities. And that couldn't be farther from the truth. We're giving them the tools they need to be successful. And when you start thinking you do it all, it's no different than parents who think they have all the answers. They're not doing all they need to do to help these students because they don't have time. I mean, an average student in public education today will have maybe 20 minutes of times, actual time with a counselor over the course of four years. 20 minutes is not enough time. No, not at all. And those counselors are responsible for, in many cases, 400, 300, 400 kids. A counselor, they don't know anything about your child to be able to answer those questions that are the hard ones. And so we either have to give kids the tools to figure it out for themselves. And admit that we are failing them, or we're going to continue to have the same problems where kids are just going to feel floundering and lost, and parents are going to be frustrated, and kids will be frustrated. And so to me, it's like the first part about solving the problem is admitting there's a problem, and I don't feel like we've admitted there's a problem yet. And not only do we not admit there's a problem, we are defiantly saying in public education there is no problem. You know, we're doing all this for the kids already, and we know that they're not. And so that's why we're trying to fill that gap. And hopefully we can work with counselors, not against them. That's what we try to do. But there's a lot of pushback that we run into. Yeah. How do you figure out? Where to make the impact with kids and working with schools? I'm just curious about that. You know, that's a hard one. I mean, you never know when that point of impact could be something significant. And you don't know exactly what time it's going to be. So to me, it's a matter of putting things out there for the kids to explore and letting the kids decide where that impact is. And, you know, because... The truth is, and we've seen this because, I mean, one of the joys and frustrations of working with kids for my private business, College Planning Center, is we get to have them for a long time. So we'll get kids sometimes as eighth graders, ninth graders, and we get to walk them through the whole process and we get to see them grow and both as a student, but as a young person, too. And sometimes watching and it's frustrating for parents because the light doesn't come on till right towards the end. And they're like, I don't know what to do anymore. I'm so frustrated. And then all of a sudden it's like epiphany and the light comes on and they're like, he's a different child. He's a different student now or she's a different student now. And then they figure it out. But we could have pressured them all day long. A year or two earlier just wasn't going to work at that time. They had to be ready. They had to be ready. But we had to they had to know. We're continuously there, I guess, and when we're continuously there and asking them what's going on in their life, and it gets back to that, I think I made the statement last time, they don't care what you know until they know that you care, and I know that's cheesy, but when they realize that we care about just them being successful in whatever path they're going to choose, I think they're open to listening to the suggestions we have, and then when they figure it out, it just clicks. And, and, but we can't control when it's going to click. And that's the part where I said, it can be frustrating too, for parents and for me as a parent, it's different. I mean, it happens at different times for my children. So it's a, you just never know. And I have to be willing to accept my limitations sometimes when I realize that I'm making the same mistakes as a parent that I tell my clients they're making. And then I stop myself and go, you're, I got to stop. I know, you need to take a step back. Take a beat and let my children figure things out sometimes on their own and work through the problems, the hard stuff, without me stepping in and figuring it out for them. I love getting back to this whole path thing that you even said your children have these different paths that they're going on. And I think oftentimes we see kids maybe in the neighborhood, maybe in the schools, our kids' friends, and we think everyone has this same path and that couldn't be farther from the truth. So when you did the Camino the first time, did you come out and think? I'm going to do a lot of not-for-profit work or did this sort of evolve along the way? No, I still wanted to be rich when I was doing the first time. I still had this idea that success and financial gain were all tied together and that I was going to set the world on fire. And, you know, so... My ideas at the time were very different than my ideas now, for certain. No, I did not come out Thinking I'm going to save the world after the first time I was like, how fast can I do this leg of the Camino? I'm going to I'm going to show them that, you know, I'm a super I'm a super pilgrim and, you know, I can do this and carry my pack. And so it was all it was a competition for me. And that's probably the athlete in me came out the first time that I was that I was, you know, indefatigable. I could just continue to go and and I was going to finish the Camino that you normally took. You know, 30 days, I was going to do it in 25 days, you know, just to, you know, just because I could. And so I think I made the same mistake probably the first time that a lot of people make as young people is that I missed the things along the way because I was in such a hurry. I was walking so fast that I missed the conversations sometimes that I could have had. I missed the moments that I could have had along the way. Hey, and the second time. Much slower, although I still like to think I was walking at a good pace. But I think I took the time to see things the second time that I missed the first time. And I think that's just normal. Young person versus someone who's, and I was, the second time I did it, I was right at 50. So, yeah, it was very different. And I saw things differently. But I think it was much more rewarding. When I took the time to have those conversations and realized we don't have to be in a hurry to get to the next, you know, the next stop or the next place. And maybe we'll take an extra day in the city because if we can. And that was was very rewarding in a different way. How long did it take you to do the Camino both times? Well, the first I did, and this is key too, I did two different paths. So the first path I did was the traditional path, starting in France. And, you know, it's the path most people take, the Camino. And it goes into Spain, and it's in the middle of Spain. And the second time, when my son and I did it, Holden, we wanted to do the oldest path and the more challenging, through the mountains. We did that one in 14 days, and there were days we were walking. Almost 20 miles a day with the pack and there were some harrowing days where we didn't think we were going to make it because I was older and my legs or my mind was telling me that I could do it and my body was telling me that I couldn't. Maybe take a break. Yeah, take a break. So the first time I did it, it was in 20 days and I walked farther the first time. But it was harder the second time, even though it was shorter. Right, we were going through the mountains. Yeah, through the mountains, and we did the oldest path. And it was up through the mountains, and it was really, it was hard. It was very hard in ways that I had not anticipated, because I still had this in my mind that I could do, you know, physically that none of that would be a problem, but it was hard. There, there were, there was a day or two where we, I was wondering where I was gonna better wake up the next day and continue the next day. And we also did the second time we did it was also the hottest summer in Spain and like a hundred years. And there were people that died along the Camino that year, two, two, two people, two pilgrims that died from heat exhaustion. So, so there was even, there was even that fear. And now granted we. We trained in South Carolina heat, so that didn't feel that hot to us. So we were prepared for it. But for a lot of them, they were not prepared for it. It was rough. Can you sleep along the way, or do you sleep in the towns? Like, do you take a tent? There are definitely places along the way you can stop and take a break and rest. But we would start at 5 in the morning. We were done by 1 most days, because by the time we get to the hot part of the day, we would want to be done with that leg for the day. So that's why we started so early in the morning. Good morning. But I think that, you know, that in and of itself was a kind of a, you know, to get an early start was, you know, it's a good life lesson, too, to get to get up and get going. Yeah. And we would all we would do that same thing. Yeah. And, you know, when you're staying in the you're staying in these refugios or these these hostels, whatever you want, the places the pilgrims stay along the way. And, you know, people are up and going. You don't want to be the last pilgrim getting out of the of the of the stable. We would want to be the first ones out in the morning. And so we were. We pushed ourselves to get out early. Now, that didn't always make my son very happy because he's not a morning person. But we used to have the first hour where we didn't talk to each other because he was grumpy and I was just kind of waking up as well. But even that, you know, walking up through the mountains and then when the sun's coming up and you see the first light. It's hard to even explain how beautiful that was. And that was, even when you're sore, it still felt good. Yeah, it's just like a blessing for a new day, a fresh start, a new beginning. You're making me want to do the Camino because it really is a metaphor for life. Get up and get going. You don't know the path. Put the next, you know, one foot in front of the other. Thank Well, if you're feeling that way, just so many things you should watch the way if you haven't watched it. I haven't watched The Way, it's a, it's a movie that was done by Emilio Estevez and his father, Martin Sheen. Watch it. And when you watch it, if you want to go now, you. you watch that and you'll definitely want to go. I'm really going to want to go. You're going to really want to go. And my sister and her husband just did it this last summer and they just. I mean, they just were, were over the moon about it. They loved it and they did it a different way than I did it, but they still, they loved it. And it's a, that's, and that's kind of part of the thing that inspired me to this idea of talking to all these different pilgrims that are doing it. I think they all have great stories and different stories. Yeah. Like I said, because everybody's doing it for another different reason. I do love that. I did one pilgrimage in my life. I went to Fatima in Portugal and it. Similar, but I wasn't there as long as you're doing the Camino and you're not walking, but there is something so interesting in just talking to people from all over the world. And like you said, people are there for different reasons and it's amazing. How deep you can go with a person that you've never met and they're telling you. Yeah, yeah. I think, I think you're even more honest with people sometimes. I think you're more honest when you know, you don't ever, you're probably never going to see that person again. I think the honesty is even more raw and you just throw stuff out there that, wow, I can't believe I just told them my whole story and you know, an hour, but you realize too. And, um, I wrote a poem about this, you know, because I used to fancy myself a poet when I was younger in my English major days. And it was about the things they carry. And it's all about everybody carries a different weight. We don't realize it's not the weight of the pack. It's the weight of the different. Things you're carrying along the way. And there was even a book written by Tim O'Brien, I think. It was a short story book from his time in Vietnam. It's called The Things They Carried. And it's a great book, but it's the same thing. Everybody came back carrying different weights from Vietnam. And we carry different weights in our life. And I feel like sometimes we just don't even take the time to find out what people are dealing with because we just keep everybody in arm's distance. And I think working with kids, that's the one great thing is that you start to figure out the different things that you can see it, the things they're carrying, the things that are weighing them down. And you can't take the weight for them. I couldn't carry my son's pack. It was hard for him some days and he couldn't carry mine. And so we have to carry our own weight. But the way we carry, it's different, excuse me, and it's just, that is, like I said, there's so many metaphors that I began to see, mainly because, like, as a writer, I just see them everywhere, and my son would give me a hard time about how deep I try to get with everything, but that's just the way that I see things, like, wow, that's a metaphor for this, and that's a metaphor for that, and everywhere I looked, it was another. It was something else that I was like, wow, that's, that's so profound. He's like, no, that's just, you know, that's just a cow in the field, dad. You know, that's nothing, that's not, that's like, oh, it's just, it was funny for me. And, and, you know, and having that time with my son, I think, you know, and I'm hoping to do it again with my youngest son. Now, I think that will be my last Camino. I say that last, but I keep saying that I won't, but I'm hoping to do it again with my son who will graduate in another year. He's a junior this year. Mm-hmm. I just, it just, once it gets in your system, it's hard to get out of your system. That's what I'll tell you. Well, you can keep going. I mean, you said there were those people who were in their 70s walking in. Yeah, of course. You've got a lot of time. Yeah, you know, and I did do the second Camino on one good hip. I had one hip replacement right before I did it in my 40s, late 40s. And I'm staring into the, into the, you know, the reality of another hip replacement probably coming up in the next year. And so nothing, it doesn't have to slow you down. I just, I worked through that one and I made it through on one hip the first time. And I think I could probably make it done on two bionic hips the second time. Okay. That's, that's incredible. There is something that you said that I think. It's hard to do in day-to-day life because you're just kind of like going about things, but I do think saying things out loud, there's something magical, spiritual, restorative about just talking to people and saying it out loud, but we Oftentimes don't have the time. So I think that's interesting that on the Camino you do, you're walking for however many hours a day and what else do you have to do but talk to the person who's next to you? Yeah, or when you get to the end of the Camino, people don't just, they can't go into their own hole. They're all in a spot where you're in a room with 20 people in the room. Even when you eat, you're around people and the conversations just happen naturally. You realize, I think, how much we close ourselves off. Yeah. And I think that's more of an American thing than it is. I mean, Europeans are very big on, you know, going to the cafe, eating meals. A meal isn't something that you hurry through. It's something that you spend, you know. Savor. You spend time talking and you have multiple, you know, parts of the meal, you know. And we're just in a hurry to get it and get it done with it and get. And so to me... That sense of community there was so enriching, but also it was very rewarding in ways that even when you're tired, taking that time to talk to somebody else who's tired, but you're finding out things that you would never know if you didn't take the time to tell me about why you're doing it, how did you end up here, when did y'all get married, how did y'all on me. I mean, so many different conversations that we had along the way that You know, very, like I said, rich in ways that you don't anticipate, but then when you reflect back on them, you mean even more than they did at the time and things that you don't forget. I remember conversations I had 30 plus years ago on the first time I did it. I've stuck with me and will continue to stick with me for my whole life. And I remember conversations I had last week with some people or what I had for lunch yesterday. But I remember that. That's interesting. So, yeah, I think I wish there was more of that, you know, more of those. And I don't mean, it's hard for me, I don't understand. Why there's not, and I include myself in that because I go home and sometimes now I feel like I close myself off still sometimes after a hard day or a long day and don't go out and have that community. I think it's hard on a day-to-day basis because you have to work, you have obligations, but I do think that something like the Camino or even just going on a little road trip with with your family kind of creates that. Connection in that time, you kind of slow it down and, and you connect. So I feel like there's a common thread here. Like you like connecting with people, you like helping people to find their path. Um, you know, knowing that no two paths are the same, even if you want the same for, you know, your loved ones. So. I'm curious, how has your definition of success changed from, say, the first time you did the Camino to now? Mm-hmm. I think the first time I did the Camino, it was about the destination for me. It was about getting there. It was about an accomplishment. And I think that what I realized is that it's what happens along the way that is where you really get. You know, the good parts. And what happens along the way isn't always good. Yeah. What happens along the way for even the second time I did it with my son was, you know, turning an ankle or it's, you know, it's, you know, running out of water because we missed our, you know, we missed our turn, you know, and worrying that we're going to, you know, we're going to die of heat exhaustion. Yeah. You know, there were plenty of times when we can laugh about it now that we're at the time. We're kind of scary. But. That is, you know, those are the moments that stick with me the most is that the good and the bad, it's all messy, but it's, you know, when you put yourself out there and you, and you really step outside of your comfort zone and, and really walk that path. Yeah. I think you, I think you're going to find a lot of things that you will miss out on if you don't ever take the Take the chance to do it and to me that is where I feel like I've changed dramatically is that I thought I had the answers initially. I thought that it was about getting to the destination faster and you know, and you know, they. And everybody says Buen Camino, you know, good Camino, you know, when you're walking, when you're passing people and everybody's walking at their different paces and whatnot. And, you know, everybody and they joke that everybody has a reason for the for the Camino and their own reason. But I think for me, it's just realizing that as I've got as I've worked as a teacher and as I worked in this business and I've realized that every time I think I've seen it all, I haven't seen even a fraction of what. And I won't see it all. And I don't expect that I will, but I just love interacting with even the kids that are difficult. It's fun to interact and to help them. And I think sometimes if I'm honest with myself, some of the ones that were the most difficult for me to work with end up being the most rewarding at the end because they really needed the help the most, even though they didn't want it. Yeah. I think that's interesting that you ultimately figured out that the path is actually Success going all the way back to the Camino. It's the whole journey and what you're learning, not just that end point. But think about the lesson. I mean, everybody's like about likes now and they're about, you know, about, I mean, there's a lot of definitions for success that I think, and they'll figure those things out. And I don't ever intend to tell somebody what their idea of success should be. But I'm just saying that I feel like I worry sometimes that we are substituting. An idea that community, the social community is, and online, that's not really community to me. And so even when we meet with students, if I have a chance to meet with them in person, I prefer to meet with them in person. But so many of them now will default to meeting online because that's where they feel comfortable. So, yeah, I worry that we're just losing that big community that's important. And when we lose that community, I feel like I feel isolated. They feel lonely. And I see a lot of that now that I worry is becoming endemic. And that's that is problematic. And so I'm hoping that, you know, the things that we're doing in general, if it's just just talking through things and and figuring things out as we talk through them, maybe that's that alone is something that will help students and parents. And try to give them, you know, lessons that I've learned and understanding that my lessons will help, but it isn't going to solve the problems that they're dealing with. So not everyone can go to the Camino right now. So what is something that people can do today to build community or maybe even somehow do their own Camino right where they are? Yeah, your path doesn't have to be in Spain. Your path is going to be anywhere that you choose to take it. My advice is, you know, try the hard stuff, get up, do the things that you're putting off. Yeah. You know, and I, and I include my, I put stuff off when we're good at staying busy and avoiding the things that are really hard. Yeah. Do the hard things and find and take and, and find ways to get out there and put yourself out there in community where the students I have, I was like, find one club that interests you and just go, go to the club meeting, you know, see, you may not like it. You might, and you might love it. But at least try it. Yeah. And I try to, and I'm trying to live by that as well and not just be comfortable to come home at the end of the week and just sit on the couch and, you know, and it's good to be comfortable at home. Don't get me wrong. I'm happy to be. But, you know, maybe step outside that comfort zone and interact with people in ways that you wouldn't normally. Yeah. Because you don't know when, yeah, you don't know when you're going to have those interactions that are going to be meaningful. And I think. I think we're avoiding those to a certain extent. And so that's where you couldn't avoid it on the Camino. You had to do it. So you could not avoid it. Maybe that being forced on you was a good thing there, but we can avoid it in our own lives, but don't avoid it. That's what I would say. Yeah. I think everyone waits for perfect to go and do something because then it's going to be this perfect thing or that's the destination. Recently, speaking of community, we just had a neighborhood party and it made me think about it. We could have just kept thinking and thinking and thinking our garage is gross, but we had to end the garage. And it was great. And we built community. So it just kind of jogged my memory. It was kind of like a similar thing. Great is the enemy of good. Is that when they can know? Oh, that's a great one, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we wanted it to be great, and when I was working on my dissertation, that's what my dissertation director says, like, you know, just get something down. You know, put something down on paper. It doesn't have to be perfect, but we're, you know, and I see a lot of kids that are perfectionists, that are striving for something unattainable, first of all. But also that we, you know... I saw a recent survey that talked about how over the last 20 years, people have stopped having house parties or have people over to their homes. And then the percentages have dropped like 30%. And one of the reasons why is that because we, you know, we want it to be perfect because we have this social media idea that everything has to be exactly right and perfect. So rather than being messy, we just don't do it at all. And so I think if you do that, you miss out on some of the Some of those moments like that are the fun ones that where you think it won't, you thought you wouldn't do it because it wasn't right, but then you did it. And that simple conversation you had in that garage could be really fun and might make a new friendship that you didn't have before. You know, I think we're going to do an episode on this because I think you're so right is that we could have just kept. Waiting and, you know, I needed to clean off the shelves and do all those things. And I just never, never, ever got to it. And it was fine. We all made it and everyone had a great time. Why do you think the Camino keeps calling you back? I think it does because I feel like there's just still so much more to learn about myself and about, you know, about life in general. Something about the Camino that... The unanswered questions, the things that are constantly there, and the realization that every time it's something new that I see. The same reason I reread Tolkien four times, all the books, because every time I read them, I see something that I missed the first time. Yeah. I think at different stages in your life, you just see things so differently that I feel like I'm going to get something different this time than I didn't get last time. And going with. My youngest son, I think that will be an experience, too, that will give me things because they're so different. You know, William and Holden are so different that I'm sure that I will experience it a completely different way with one son versus the other and not one is good and one is bad, just different ways of seeing things through their eyes, too. And so that's what it is, is that I know that it's always going to be different, but in ways that are rewarding. So I love what you said about rereading a book and it made me, I thought about this at the beginning when you were talking about it and I'm looking for the name of the podcast and it's escaping me, but his name is Shiloh Brooks and he has a podcast about reading books and he always talks about how when you come back to something as an older person, You're a different person, and so you experience things differently, and the book is different to you every time that you read it, and it sounds like that's another thread running through your life, which is you experience these different things on the Camino like you do in a good book. You just see different things. You realize different things because you've grown as a person, and you've gone down these different paths. So it is, it is, it's, it's, and that is so. It's exciting to think that you can continue to see new things. I mean, I think that's I mean, that's what you hope you do, because I figure out if I feel like I've ever seen it all, you know, then it's just time to not do anything. And I don't think I ever get to the point where I feel like I've seen it all. No. Yeah. And so I'm just happy I can still do it and happy that I can still work with students and they keep me young, even when I feel old, the same way my kids do. And I think that... I feel like I still have a lot to offer in the sense of and not only professionally as a consultant, but also, you know, in this podcast that I'm hoping to start where you can hope where you can make people talk about those things. And maybe you never know who's going to be influenced by that. You don't know who's going to who the who the things who is going to be influenced by the stuff that you have to say or the experiences you've had the same way they've influenced me over, you know, over the years. And they didn't know it at the time. I think that's what's so amazing about living in this day and age with technology is that you can really share your knowledge with so many people. And like you said, with those kids who really need to hear your wisdom and to learn from you. So you have to start this podcast. No more, no more. And that is the me putting off the hard stuff part. I'm holding myself accountable. That's you know, but we're all human. We all do that. So before we go, where can people find you and how can they support your all-in college planning for kids that need the support but can't get it? Well, you know, you can obviously get collegeplanningcenters.com is my company. We have resources on there, places where you can ask questions. We have free consultations we do with families. but all in collegeplanning.org. is where you can go to and there's places if you want to donate or sponsor a student, you can sponsor a child, you can donate so that other students can have that experience. And I think that is one thing that I think is that I would encourage all families to do that have the means to use us. As a private, in the private capacity, is that realize that there are plenty that don't? And so, you know, pass that on to someone else who doesn't, you know, and just contribute a little bit and allowing us to work with students. They can't afford even a little bit of money to do that can make a big difference. Yeah. And and change lives that you don't like you said, you'd have no idea how much that can impact the young student. Yeah. And I would say, think of that as a Christmas gift or a birthday gift. I love giving gifts of a donation for something and then people love it. And they know that they're having this big impact as their gift. If you don't want to give like a physical item. Okay. Right. Christopher, it has been amazing as for you. It's always fun. So thank you so much. Everyone go to College Planning Center and All In College. And you can find Christopher Parsons and all of the details in the description and in the show notes below. Thanks for being here. I appreciate you. Okay. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye.