Russia miscalculated by sidelining Europe in US talks, Kallas tells Euronews

Good morning. And Madam Callas, good morning. Thank you for joining us on Euronews. This has been a difficult week, a dramatic week, some would suggest. It started with that diesel deal with Russia. And now there seems to be real operational issues when it comes to the intel on the ground in Ukraine. The president of Ukraine, Zelensky, says this is a betrayal. It feels like a betrayal. Has the U.S. president betrayed Ukraine and, by extension, the Europeans? Well, the diesel deal is definitely a gift to Putin. The question is, what is he giving in return? What we see, he's actually increasing the attacks on the civilian and civilian infrastructure. The ceasefire that was also announced is not really working on the Russian side. And to that point, the president of Ukraine seems to indicate in an interview with the FT that he is prepared and will hit back Russian refineries. There is a clash of visions here. The president of the U.S. says, don't hit them. We need them because there is an energy crisis. It started with the Strait of Hormuz. The Ukrainians say we have to because that is the core of the operation, the moneymaker for Russia. In your view, as a top European diplomat, should Ukraine hit them? I mean, the core issue is that Russia should stop this war. So there wouldn't be any attacks on the refineries either. But, you know, if we if we look at the big picture, then the majority of the financing for this war comes from oil. And that is why Ukraine is also targeting them, while Russia is targeting the energy infrastructure inside Ukraine to cause as much suffering for the Ukrainian people for the upcoming winter. And this is escalation we've seen since August on the cities. But just to pick up on this point, would you say, yes, the president of Ukraine has a legitimate point. He is right to hit the refineries. Yes. If we look at the, you know, the international law, it is clear that it is in defense of Ukraine, because that is where the funding comes for this war to kill Ukrainian people every day. And to me, it seems the administration is looking currently at this scenario, suggesting that the war is now not going to change. that line on the battlefield. That is the end of it. And you have to make a deal. They seem to think that with Russia, it's a matter of business, financial incentives. We see that with diesel reports that they may want to use some of the frozen assets, potentially give them to Russia. Is the administration wrong? Are they just miscalculating fully what Vladimir Putin wants? Well, clearly, you know, we have to see the bigger picture, which is that we have one aggressor and one victim. So pressuring the victim to surrender is maybe bringing the pause to this war, but not in long term. And that's why the pressure should be on the aggressor, what we are doing on the European side. And if we would do this together with U.S., then the message to Russia would be clear. Stop this war and all your worries when it comes to oil refineries and whatnot will also To me, from the outside, what it seems, however, is we are at a point of rupture. The U.S. has taken on a very different path compared to that of the Europeans. Do you look at it and you say, we need a wake-up call? It is just a moment of, we need to put our own plan. And why has that not happened now? Well, we have put our own plan, and that is a clear message also to Russia that, you know, all these things that they are interested in, lifting the sanctions, I mean, getting, you know, the release of frozen assets. That's actually up to the Europeans to decide. Now, Russians want to discuss and negotiate with US so that US would deliver them what they want. So, you know, Europe is just a nuisance here. But actually, you know, we have our own requests for Russia because they have started this war. We want to make sure that they don't continue. Also, you know, the sabotage acts, hybrid attacks that they have on European soil. So clearly, clearly, you know, the message is there that, you know, you need to talk to the Europeans as well. But it seems to me, and I say this with all due respect, because the EU is a complex institution, the capitals too, but there is a lack of leadership. When you are blindsided every four months, when you're not really at the heart of the negotiations, when the hybrid attack escalates. The message I get is that the US does not respect the perspective of the Europeans and that Russia is willing to test them. Why? Where is the failure coming from? Because the calculation is that, you know, if Russia and US agree, then, you know, Russia will get what they want. But they have miscalculated because, you know, when was the Anchorage agreement? It was August last year. So it is more than a year that they have tried to pressure Ukraine. But the but the calculus has been wrong because Europeans have been supporting Ukraine and Ukraine has not surrendered, even though Americans have been pressuring. And yet I see a very difficult political calendar with the elections that are lining up in Europe. Yesterday, Marine Le Pen was in Brussels and she said, and this is a quote, France is not in a position where it can't pay for Ukraine anymore. If others want to pay, they can, but France will not pay. They cannot do it anymore. When you hear that, are you concerned? Because it seems to me the political tide is not working in favor of Ukraine. It is true that we are all democracies and a lot of elections are coming up. And also there are a lot of, you know, the public support is also in a different place than it was, you know, four years ago. That's also very clear. But this is what the Russians are actually, you know, playing at. They are playing at that the Europeans will get tired and then they will get what they want. And what I want to stress is that then we will only have a pause and the appetite for them will grow. And to that point, there is a financial cost, however. The Europeans, let's be honest, can they pay a hundred billion, assuming maybe that's the number we're looking at to help the Ukrainians? Who is going to finance this? And ultimately, is it not just obvious that you've got to tap into the Russian frozen assets before the Americans do it? Well, the frozen assets are frozen in Europe. And also, I mean, the agreement between the European leaders is that they are going to remain frozen until Russia pays reparations. So, yes, clearly, a lot of member states are pointing at this $200 billion that, you know, we should take this money that Ukraine needs from these frozen assets. And what's it going to take to change dynamics then? What's it going to take? It's going to take a clear plan to actually, you know, divide the risk. Because, yes, some member states have the frozen assets. They are afraid of the risk that comes to their way. If all the member states would share the risk... Is that idea still alive? Yes, it is. It is still alive. But, you know, also the clear plan needs to come. And just, High Representative, as a final point, over the past six months there has been a campaign, something I've not seen in a long time in Brussels, to undermine your work and your institution. What I see today is a High Representative that is determined and is not going anywhere. Are you going to fight for your institution? Of course, of course I'm going to fight, and it's a good institution, meaning that we do a lot of good work. The EU delegations that everybody is very happy with are working well for also the member states. I think this is the moment in time where we need to be effective in our foreign policy. We need to be united. And that's why the discussions, I actually welcome how we make them more effective. And that's your message to the capitals, too, that you will be on top of this dossier? Yes, absolutely. And that has been my message and also the message of my secretary general who has been traveling. I see you revitalized this morning. I see you energized. Is that how you feel? Absolutely. I mean, you know, tough times need to have a tough stance. Well, to that point, Kaja Kallas, thank you so much for joining us on Your News this morning.