300 and The Battle of Thermopylae

Hi, and welcome to Classical Stuff You Should Know, a podcast about classical education, old books, old ideas, how to read, literature, and how to cultivate an intellectual life. Yeah. My name is Graham Donaldson, and I am here with my two friends in learning, A.J. Hannenberg. That's me. And Thomas Fletcher Magby. Hello. Now, gentlemen, there's a problem, and that is we live, we have a pretty good life, simple, we read books, we go to our jobs, we love our families and loved ones, but I've heard a rumor that a massive army is on the move. Wow. And it is marching towards our bucolic little existence. But don't worry, I've got a plan. If they're gonna get to us, there's a tiny mountain pass that they need to walk through. Got it. The renowned Texas mountain pass. To get to Austin, there is this little hill country pass that they have to walk through. And we can make our famous last ditch stand in that mountain pass. And there's nobody I would rather die shoulder to shoulder with. There it is. Than A.J. Hannenberg and Thomas Fletcher Magby. Absolutely. Let's grease ourselves up, boys. Let's get to work. I mean, we've been training for this since we were what, like six? That's right. Yeah, absolutely. Stealing from neighbors. Yes. Yep, I've. Stan Limber. I would have also accepted an Alamo reference for the opening of this. Okay, that's right. I mean, I feel like this might be on our own. Yeah, come and take it. And I stand. That's true. In our blood, right? Okay. So, this is going to be. Oh, an episode 300, by the way. Episode 300. Yeah, it's a big day. We're gonna talk about the Battle of the 300, the 300 Spartans. So good. So, I think this is fairly straightforward, but just to state it, this is going to be part four of the Herodotus series on book seven of Herodotus. I don't think there's anything confusing about that. No. Okay, awesome. But this does imply that every episode that came before this is a soldier that the Persians have slaughtered. Wow. Only 299? Yeah. We got a lot to go then. Yeah. There are millions of them according to Herodotus. That's tough. Uh-oh, we got some work cut out for us. So, yeah, talking about, do people, so, I was in high school when the movie 300 came out. This was like a very important moment for me. Do people still watch that movie? I don't know. Was that Zack Snyder? Is that who did it? Zack Snyder, yeah. I don't think so. I don't think people watch this anymore. I think there's still occasional references, like the This Is Sparta meme or whatever, but I think it's less and less these days. That was back when you had this weird genre of movie where they were adapting comic books that Zack Snyder was doing, and they did 300, they did Sin City. They did- They looked pretty good. They were just so different. Yeah. They were unlike anything. They don't look good. I haven't. Did they not look good? They do not hold up. Because I was watching clips, and the digital effects really, you can tell the difference. It's 20 years ago, right? Yeah. I think it was 2006. So it doesn't exactly hold up, but I remember there was probably no movie I was more pumped for, right? Yeah. Just like, it's comic books, it's action, it's kind of historical. Yeah, it's very exciting. It was fun. Yeah, I don't think kids watch it now. I think- They might watch it in Bad Movie Club, if they're going to. I don't know if it's too over the top. So we made some references here. So there's this Battle of Thermopylae, which is where we're gonna get to, but there's a lot of lead up to get there. So there are a few kind of primary historical sources, and we've referenced a few of them. So one of them is Herodotus. It's book seven of the histories. We've, it's been years, but we have done episodes on books one, two, and three, I believe, of the histories. So this will be the fourth one of them. I don't know anything about this. I get all of my historical information from popular movies and television shows. Which we did talk about in our AMA. And I've watched the 300 musical, wherein I get all of my historical understanding. Isn't there actually? I thought a listener told us about that. Maybe I'm misremembering. So there are two other primary sources. Hopefully you're well-versed in that, Thomas. Well, thank you. As one should be. So yes, those two other primary sources are from Zacarias Snydros, and the other is from Frankos Milrodas. Greeks. No, it's Zack Snyder and Frank Miller. Sorry. So Zack Snyder made a movie about this, based on a comic book. That was too high brow for us. Thank you. We're not actually going to talk about that. We're going to talk about the Herodotus stuff. So you've made reference to the battle, but I guess just to, we'll jump in and go from there. So what is this histories about? What is Herodotus' histories about? So Herodotus is kind of tracing the buildup to this war. This war between the Greeks and the Persians. So conveniently, the Greco-Persian war. And starting in book seven, we're actually kind of like at the height of the Greco-Persian war. So I've skipped over one through three. We're kind of building up to it. We're getting a series of Kings. There's a famous battle at Marathon, which we're not going to cover. That's in book six. So it's right before this. But book seven opens with news that the Persians are having a bad time at Marathon. And so they've been rebuffed in their attempt to invade Greece and to kind of take over the Greek people. Is that where they whip the ocean? That's actually today that we're going to hear about that story. So the King at the time for Persia is Darius and Darius gets news of this defeat. He's bummed about it. There's this back and forth of Darius is starting to get old and they have to figure out who is going to take over and who will be the King, who will lead Persia after Darius dies. And do you all remember who that King is? We talked about this right before, but who is the King who will take over? It is King Xerxes. It is Xerxes indeed. So Xerxes is not the oldest son of Darius and Darius has many sons, many children, but Xerxes is able to kind of make this work because if I'm remembering correctly, he's the first son born after Darius becomes King. So he kind of like claims that he's closest to the King lineage as opposed to an older son who is kind of closer. Is he the dopest kid? Like, I feel like at some point you just need to pick your awesomest child. Darius kind of weighs the scales. Like, he kind of, he wants Xerxes. Like, and Darius is coaching Xerxes on how to make the best argument that he, Xerxes, should be King. Like, don't give me primogenitor. Like, I want to be able to pick my coolest kid. And that's, but it's, we're going to hear about Xerxes this whole time and so I'm not, now maybe we'll see the failings of Xerxes. I don't know if the other sons would have been worse. And there's a chance that they wouldn't have done this battle in the first place, but the way it's set up, it's kind of like outside of Xerxes' control that this whole military campaign is going to happen. So Xerxes is determined to be King and Darius had started this war and Xerxes wanted to figure out whether the war should continue. So he calls together all the people of the court and has everyone share their opinions. So he kind of lays it out to them. Hey, we're in this battle, want to get everyone's thoughts on what we should do? And what is the first opinion that's offered? We shouldn't do this. Let's just like cut our losses and go home. That's the second guy. I thought the first one's like the suck up. The first one's like, oh, wise King Xerxes, like your father was very wise. You are very wise. We ought to, we are the greatest of warriors. We have the greatest number of warriors. We have nothing to fear from any other army. We have nothing to fear. Therefore we should go and conquer. In fact, it's our birthright to go and do this, right? And Xerxes hears that it's kind of like nodding. He's like, yeah, we are awesome. Like we should, we are entitled to this land. This should all be ours. So then a second person comes up and this is, I think it's Xerxes uncle, but it's a, it's a relation of his, which I only bring up because it's the reason he's not killed like immediately after doing this. Right. But he gets up and he's like, we don't have to do this. Like we have just lost a battle. We can, we can cut our losses now. Just like you're saying, we don't need to invade, double down, like we can just stay home. We can be happy and we don't have to push for war. There are these stories about the, so Herodotus is a Greek, right? So like he'll fit these things in and I'll point to a few as we go. But Greeks are so cool. They're so strong and so powerful. And like, no, I've heard tale that no one can defeat them. And so the, this, the, this uncle kind of lays that out and there's silence. People are like mortified that he would stand up and do something like this. And Xerxes is like, if you were not my relation, if you were not a family member, I'd kill you on the spot. Like they're completely unacceptable. This is not, obviously we're going to go to war. Like this is what we're going to do. But then Xerxes goes home and he's like, I think I made the wrong call. Like, I think, I think I'm leading us to our deaths. Like this could be a huge mistake. And you know what? What's that? Good on him. Yeah. Has a little, has some thoughts about it. And he is like, you know what? Tomorrow I'm going to call everyone up and I'm going to cancel this whole thing. Like I'm, we're not going to war. We're not going to do this. He goes to bed and he has a dream. Oh no. And in this dream, he has like an eagle is eating a snake and there's like a sunbeam. And there's like a dying Spartan or something. Yeah. This one's like, it's a, it's a person who comes to him. I don't think it is clarified in Herodotus, but in there's a play called the Persians where it's Darius who comes in a dream to him and is like, Hey, you need to go do this battle. Yeah. Like again, that's a different source than this one, but it's like a phantom is how it's translated. Here comes to him and is like, you must do this battle. Like this is, this is completely necessary. This is very important. You need to go and do this. He wakes up and he's like terrified. Cause he's, cause he wants to, he Xerxes wants to back out. He said this vision that he actually needs to go to war. And so he calls that, that uncle who had told him not to go to war and Xerxes says, Hey, I just had this like horrifying vision, but I'm worried that it's not real. Like I'm worried that I'm kind of like second guessing myself that the dream, the prophecy isn't real. And they actually have this interesting back and forth where the, the family member he's talking to acknowledges that most the quote is most of the, most of the visions visiting our dreams tend to be what one is thinking about during the day. Isn't that interesting? So as you were reading this, I'm realizing how much paralyzed paradise lost references. Oh, is that coming from this? So there's like the council of what to do. Yeah. The, that dream where someone says like, you know what? The only reason you dream that is because you were thinking about that the day before Adam says this to Eve, when she has a dream about eating the fruit, but it's actually Satan whispering in her ear and Adam's like, don't even worry about it. Sometimes we just think crazy things. And he was like, okay. And, but it was like Satan trying to put in her mind, the bad idea to go do. So yeah. At least at some point it's almost word for word what I've been saying. So, and I don't know if this happens next in paradise lost, but Xerxes is like, Hey, I think it's Astobanos is the, is the, is the uncle. Hey, can you uncle dress up in my clothes, sit on my throne and then go sleep in my bed? Because if this is really a vision, you're going to have the same vision. We're going to trick the spirit into showing up to you. And then that'll prove that this is actually. They fall for it every time. Spirits have notoriously bad eyesight. Yeah. Well, they're not good at it. Well, that's what the Astobanos is like. Most spirits. The guy comes back. He's like, the uncle is like, that's, that's really dumb. Like obviously spirits are not tricked by these things. Like you're better than this. King, you know, better, but Xerxes like insists on it. I got the crown Xerxes is like, you're going to do it. Because I said too. So he, he does it. He dresses up like Xerxes. He sits on the throne. He goes and sleeps in Xerxes bed. And the vision appears to Astobanos appears to the other guy. And the, in the, the, the vision shows up and the, the spirit like, are you, says to the uncle, are you the one who has been so forcefully dissuading Xerxes from marching against Hellas, as though you are so worried about him? Well, neither in the immediate present nor in the future, will you escape punishment for trying to avert what is destined to happen? All right, so the spirit knows it's not Xerxes. Correct. Not fooled. But he does get the vision. Yeah. As for Xerxes, he has already been enlightened as to what he must suffer if he refuses to obey. Dang. He gets killed. So he basically says like, you are going to, we're going to like mess you up. Yeah. If you don't. Get in line. Like this is happening. I spirit have told him what to do. Like back off, buddy. And. Wow. What's the guy's name? Astobanos. I think I've mixed an R with an S. It's Artabanos. Artabanos is like, all right, well. Yes. Can't argue with that. Goes to Xerxes and is like, we're doing what you said. We're going to, we're, we're doing this battle. This is happening. Wow. So. That's intense. Xerxes has tried to back out, but ultimately decides to do this. But there's a problem. And I'm not very good with geography. I assume you all will know more about this region than I do because you all like teach books that kind of occur around this area. I guess probably AJ specifically. So they are in what is today, Turkey. So kind of like Western and Northwestern Turkey. They want to get to Greece and also conquer everything in between, but. Naturally. Why, why, why? If we're, if we're there. If you're going to be there, why not? Are there any issues with that path that you can think of off the bat? I do not know. Mountains. Mountains are a big problem. And that's where the battle of Thermopylae comes from. Like if they want to go as far as they want to, they need to pass through some mountains, which are a problem. The other is that there's water in between each of these places. So there are a bunch of like very nice plains along the coast, which is easy to, to, to march through, but you have to get there first. And from Turkey into kind of the span of land, yeah, there's, there's, there's water that they have to cross. And so they have to figure out a way to get from Turkey into the mainland of where they want to go. Do you all know how they solve this? Is this something you have heard about before? No. Yeah, I think that wouldn't just be like build boats. Kind of. The Persians are always pretty good at like using, figuring out how to like manipulate water for military advantages. Like Cyrus re-diverted the, the, the river of Euphrates to, to, to invade Babylon. Yes. There's another one where he punished a river where the, the river, I think it killed a horse of his. This is like, this is book two or three. So the river kills one of his horses. And so they build all these little like streams off of the river and they spread the river out. Yeah. So the river like loses its power. Yes, exactly. And then. But he calls it punishing the river too. Yes. That would also do it for sure. So. I don't know what that camera, what they do. So here it's, it's, it's what you, so it's about a mile from. Oh, and he's built a big bridge, big pontoon. They do. So upon. Or like a big floating, a big floating dock. Is that what this is that I'm showing you a picture of? Oh, that's like a bridge of boats. Yes. So what they do, so what they, what they do to get over the, is that a, I don't know what it says. I think it's like a pontoon bridge, right? Yeah, kind of. Yeah. So what they build, our listeners are like, what are you talking about? So what the Persians do is they get a bunch of boats, they toss an anchor down, they put them right next to each other and they put wood over all these boats and they build a bridge. They build a bridge with all of their ships and they, there's all this stuff about how they're worried about the animals not making it across and them freaking out and running into the river. And so they actually lay dirt along this path as well. And they put walls up on either side. Cool. To trick their animals into thinking that it's just a regular path. They, it takes them years. I think it's four years, but it takes them a long time to get this put together, but they do it. And they cross what's called the Hellespont. That's the, that one mile gap between Turkey and then the mainland. Now help me out. Why not just use the boats? Yeah, they, it would take too long. So to get people back and cross, especially with animals, I guess. And according to Herodotus, there are, the first number he gives is 1.7 million people. And he later revises that number to say 5 million people. That's a big revision. Rounding errors. So the 1.7, I think is just the infantry. It's like the five includes the 1.7 and then he adds some more. But the first number he throws out is this 1.7. Now there were very likely not actually 1.7 million Persians or 5 million Persians coming as a part of this. So. This is, Herodotus is doing his best. Who are you? Question the numbers. I did, I think I mentioned before, Herodotus has two titles. One is the father of history. The other is the father of lies. And so there are things that enter into the stories that you look at and you're like, I don't think that's correct. The, before it was the, was it hippos look like horses? Yeah. Something like that. Wait, how do you know that's not the, is it like in your notes? Thank you. On the book or do you look up everything afterwards? So historians put the number at somewhere between 50 and 300,000. So a much smaller number. And what people point to is why, where he gets the 5 million is that there's this way of counting. It's called, they're called myriads. So like where we get the word myriad to say, hey, there are lots of them. A myriad is a unit of a number of people. I think it's 10,000 people, but please don't roast me in the comments. And so basically it's like there are 50 myriads, but not every myriad is necessarily full, if that makes sense. So it is actually 50 myriads. There are 50 groups of people, but they're not actually the full 10,000 people at each grouping. Does that make sense? So like, yeah, okay. So that's the theory. So a myriad at most could be 10,000. Yeah. But if you had like 800 dudes, you could still be in your myriad. And that's, and like, you're not really sitting there counting all 10,000 people in each group. That's the whole point of this thing is to like simplify counting by just saying how many of these groups are there. They're not all full. They don't all have the full, the 10,000 people or whatever it is. Yes. Yeah, it's like, I split my kids into groups and then the next week some are absent and like one group, you know, there's not the right class number. And so like one group has two, one's got like one kid left because there's two who are on a track meet. I thought you were going to say it's like a fire drill and you're like, ah, I missed a couple. Yeah, you're on like the Europe trip and all right, groups show up. All right, we got three groups, we're good. Yeah, close enough. Yeah, it's enough. Close enough. So during this building of the bridge is where Xerxes gets mad at the water. They're building the water, a violent storm descends upon it and there are people that die on the bridge because they're building it as the storm shows up. Xerxes was infuriated when he learned this. He ordered that the Hellespont was to receive 300 lashes under the whip and that a pair of shackles was to be dropped into the sea. And I've also heard that he sent others to brand the Hellespont. So like to heat up a poker into the water. So they beat the water. Yes, they toss some shackles in there and they branded it. Yes. Did weather issues not come up in the plenary sessions? They should have thought about this. Weather is a recurring issue for the Persians, which I think Herodotus sets up as like they are against nature or like they're doing something so wrong that the earth is kind of. What about these spirits though that said you gotta go do this thing? Or they have to do it because the spirits want them to lose. Well, that's mine of like we, they don't say the spirits. They never question the motivation of the spirits. Because in the way they tell it also, I think the spirit has wings and just like flies off at some point. We don't know if that is a Persian spirit or Greek or like we don't know their motivation. So I think it's a little ambiguous. It is a UAP. I'm wondering how those guys felt that we're actually doing the whipping. Like what is my job? And so those assigned to this joyless office went to work on it while other engineers were building new bridges. So I think they're. I don't know man, that's a pretty easy day. If it's that or build a bridge, I'll give lashes. I'll drop the shackles into the water if you want. Well, this is one of the famous stories, right? Whipping the water. There's like a, just a little note at the end of that. So I told you the punishment to the Hellespont. So thus he ordered that the sea was to be punished and also that the supervisors of the bridge over the Hellespont were to be beheaded. Oh, there's a little more going on there too. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. A little bummed that that doesn't get the front and center treatment. Okay, so. It's tough day at work. Tough, tough time, not ideal. So they, but they cross over this body of water and they're starting to make it into Europe. They're getting into Greece eventually. So there's a long section where they just, it describes the size of the army. There are tons of people. It's terrifying and no one should go against it. But also Xerxes has with him a former king of Sparta. So this, it's in book six. He got sold out by his people. It was like a petty political squabble, but he gets kicked out of Sparta, gets captured by the Persians and he's with Xerxes as they're going in. So Demeritus, I believe is how you'd say his name. So Demeritus is with. I feel like he got in trouble at school. Demerit, right? Yeah, it's like right there in the name. And so Xerxes asks him like, hey, what do I need to know going into this place? And Demeritus. Every Greek is awesome. Well, that is what he says. They're so strong, they never die. Yeah, and they're super strong, but also I'll pose it to you all again, this being something you thought about, like what motivates them to fight? Like, why are they going to defend against Xerxes? It's their home. Yeah. Where are they from? Yeah. They've got like sheep and kids. And because the Spartans love it. Say more. Like they are a militant society. They are trained for military when they are young. I mean, we're talking about the Spartans. Yes. They're flipping built for it. Yes. It's what they love. They train their kids to do it. It's their raison d'etre. They don't have someone to fight. They got no, they don't have no reason to be alive. There's that. There's also this interesting, what Demeritus says, and again, tell me if this kind of doesn't match with what you all would think about the Spartans, is that they fear breaking law more than they fear death. That there is something higher that they are pointed to, dedicated to, working on, other than. So the Persians come in, and I don't remember if it's Demeritus who says this, it's a quote at some point about the Persians, that they have many men, but few soldiers. Mm, that's a great line. Isn't that good? And it's mostly a slave army. They are forced to be there, and they're there because Xerxes will kill them if they don't accomplish this and do what they're told to do. While the Spartans. So all those guys are looking for chances to just run off. That's, yes, that's exactly right. Like if I can run off and not get caught, I'm gonna run off. Which actually does contribute to that five million versus 200,000 thing, is that a lot of those people missing from their myriad fled. Like they don't want to be in this battle, so they cross over into Greece and then they bolt, because they don't want to be there. Or if your boss says like, push harder, boys, you're like, only if you're watching me. Yeah, it's like, why would I? Because this isn't. Because you are like just threatening me to get it done. Yes. Yeah, so you know, that's no way to lead an army. Whereas maybe the Spartans, they like, they all want to be there. Yes. They all signed up for this. And they have to do it because like, they have to defend their families and their homes. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get there, because later it's like, if the Spartans don't stand up, the Persians will march into Greece and then everything they, everything, their families, their possessions, everything is destroyed. So there's no reason. Their culture and whole way of life. Yeah. So they have to do this. This is like so true of hockey teams. Stop. Say more. Oh, it's just like the teams that win in the playoffs are the teams that are like kind of crazy. They love each other. They're all in this thing together and they are willing to like skate through a wall for one another. Yeah. Whereas then there are some teams that are like, the playoffs are gravy. It's kind of nice to have, we're professionals. We're going to kind of do what the coach says, but like, I'm not really going to go the extra mile because I don't want to get hurt because I've got a career to think about. And like, these are my teammates, but they're not my brothers. You know, when you have a team that like, they all want to die for each other and they want to die for their head coach, like you've got, that is a team that can make it through four rounds of a best of seven physical series. That's why like, Tampa's won. That's why Florida's won. That's why Toronto won't win. That's why the Oilers aren't going to win this year. That's why Vegas isn't going to win. Do you think that the USA team in the Olympics this year had it? Because like, that kid got his teeth knocked out and he was still on the ice. Team Canada, they were like the best technical team. They played really strong. And I mean, it was really close, but there was just something where the US team you could just tell that they had this magic of believing in each other. Whereas the Canadian team was like, these are the best assortments of all of the best players in the world, but they just didn't have the sort of like swagger. They just lacked a little bit of this. That same hunger. Of this, like, I know that the cool, the awesome line is coming up with the arrows in the air and then the Spartans say their cool thing. Like team USA had that like, yeah, I'm going to be spitting my teeth out like chiclets and I'm going to be scoring the game winning goal. Whereas like. Yeah, like I'm going to throw the teeth in the garbage and then get back on the ice. Whereas team Canada was like, if we just keep executing our automated route to set routines of passing, we will eventually score. You know, and then you just didn't have the heart. Yeah, yeah. So anyway. That's fun. I'll just, this is from the conversation with Demeritus and with Xerxes. So again, Xerxes is trying to understand like, basically he's like, how much am I going to win this battle? Like how much are the Persians going to destroy the Greeks? And Demeritus is like, hold your horses. This is toward the end of it. The Lacedaemonians, so the Spartans, right? Are in fact no worse than any other men when they fight individually. But when they unite and fight together, they are the best warriors of all. For though they are free, they're not free in all respects. For they are actually ruled by a Lord and master. Law is their master. And it is the law that they inwardly fear, much more so than your men fear you. They do whatever it commands, which is always the same. It forbids them to flee from battle. And no matter how many men they are fighting, it orders them to remain in their rank and either prevail or perish. Man. Isn't that good? I feel like we need to have like, the last of the Mohican soundtrack in the background. Playing in the background, yeah. Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. I play that when we read some of the Iliad battles, like Achilles versus Hector. It's so good. That one in the Skyrim soundtrack. Skyrim. They're both very good. So from here, I'm gonna skip a bunch because it's super boring. Don't tell, oh, I would listen to Halo 2. It's the Halo 2 load music, right? Halo's a little too slow for like a hand-to-hand combat battle. Oh, fair, okay. Halo 1? Halo 3? All two? Did I just say two? Yeah. The Halo soundtrack, I mean. Just Halo. Halo is a little slow. So a bunch of stuff happens in the middle. It's like, again, I think I mentioned, it's the tour of the armies. And there are a bunch of not interesting battles where Xerxes just like, he goes to a town. I get what he does, whatever, I'll save. What he does is he sends out envoys to a bunch of different towns. He asks them for dirt and for a gift. And it's like them pledging loyalty to him. And basically everyone does it. He doesn't send these to Athens or to Sparta because he doesn't want to get disrespected. So he doesn't even give them a chance to reject him, which presumably. Because he knows they're gonna be like, you suck. Here's dirt with poop in it. Yeah, and his whole plan is to. We all spat in it. Yes, and so since that's where he's going, he knows that he's going to have to fight them anyway. And so he doesn't even bother. But he goes through a bunch of easy to walk to towns. They all throw feasts for him. The Persians apparently only eat one meal a day. And all of the towns are very thankful for that because if they had two meals a day, they'd all be bankrupt and lose everything they had. That was something that Cyrus instilled back in the day. He thought that you should work before you eat. No one should have breakfast. And you should only have one meal a day. Cyrus was like the OG intermittent fast eater. I like it. But there's like a Greek comedian who's like, good thing they don't eat two meals a day. Am I right? Anyway, so there's a guy in the middle. Who does that? What's the deal? It's the Persians. That's exactly. Perfect, that's really good. Seinfeld he is, yeah, my favorite. So all this is, the Persian army is moving along the coast essentially. And then they want to get to Athens and to Sparta. So a thing I had trouble with, and again, maybe you all know this, is that Greece has a bunch of mountains. You all know this. And so to get to where Persian. Is that the Pyrenees? No, what's the name of the mountains in Greece? You told me, man. I can't remember. We're gonna get roasted in the comments. Don't even know the mountains in Greece? Look, Google it. Are those the great, they're great Pyrenees, right? I don't know what they are. I will Google gentlemen. I'm gun shy to say it. Be wrong, it's okay. Say something wrong right now. I suck. Thank you. So to get to where the Persians want to go, they have to cross through a bunch of mountains. To get, are you really proud of that one? Graham is losing it. I'm glad we have YouTube to look at the video. So to get 5 million, probably not that many, to get hundreds of thousands of people to Athens and Sparta, you need like an easy way to get there or else you're not gonna climb mountains to get to these cities to attack them. Is it the Pindus Mountains? You tell me, man. I don't know. That's what Google, like any quick Google is saying. That's Graham's answer. What are the Pyrenees? If you hate that. I'll find the Pyrenees. Spain maybe. Don't at me, bro. Is that, do people, okay. No one says that anymore. No one says that anymore? No, they did like five years ago. Cool, I'm really hip, so I'd love to say some more things. So. Maybe a 6-7 joke while you're at it. My children have been exposed to 6-7, but they don't know what it means. No one does. Spain, Pyrenees are in Spain. Spain, not the same. So Persians are getting that way. They need a path to go through. And so there are a couple different options. And the Greeks, they go to one pass, but the Persians don't end up going there. The pass that they, the Persians want to go through and that the Greeks will defend is at Thermopylae. So Thermopylae, it's just a way to get through the mountains and Thermopylae literally means hot gates and they're like thermal springs. And these gates are like, well, it's just like a narrow spot where people can, like you have to get down to a narrow aisle of people to get in, to get through this path. It's like go through the path and have a soak. Sounds like a great time, right? I would love to go to Greece. So they have to go this way is what is the point. In the background, there's all this other stuff. The most important of which is that, so I'm talking about the land path that the Persians are following. There's also, they have ships that are also following along the coast. So you have a land army on the, this is my obvious statement of the day, on the land side of the coast. And then you have the Navy, on the water side of the coast. So was that clear? Was that good? Shoreward, I can do it one more time. So, and so they're following together, but land and water, but there's a big, big storm. Which ones? Yeah, sorry, I know. Sorry, I'm confusing them too. Well, actually the Persians get it mixed up too because the Navy gets caught in a storm, but there are too many of these ships and they don't have a place to dock them. So they try to dock in the middle of the ocean and they all bump into each other and they lose 400 ships. That's not great. And this is not like the Greeks doing something incredible. This is just like the weather, a bad storm. That is a huge number of ships to lose. Yes, and a huge number they have in the first place, right? And I bet Herodotus got exactly right. They counted them. I have no reason to question this number, yeah. This is like. The captain had to yell out his number as he like went down with it. One! Three six! It is kind of. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Just like that. So Herodotus is right. I had this thought also. It's like Herodotus is writing basically 50 years after this stuff is happening. 50 to 100, depending on the event, obviously. So it's not that far away from when the thing is happening, which is just interesting. It's as close to contemporary. Full-timers in the bar. Yes. Who fought there. They're talking about it. Yes, and that's how he's able to get this information. So all that is happening and then that brings us to Thermopylae. So, you know, again, because I'm steeped in mid-2000s comic book movies, I was expecting there to be only 300 people as a part of this battle. There are actually a bunch of different groups that are there. There are 300 Spartans. There are 300, is it hoplites? Is this a term y'all are familiar with? What is a hoplite? A light foot soldier. Yeah, so it's like, I think it's named after the shield that they hold. But like. I thought it was a spear, but maybe it's a shield. It's a shield because you can do a phalanx, right? Yeah, that's exactly. And so. And which was like brand new military technology. And so, and that's to that point from before of when they work together, they're unstoppable, right? So here are the groups. This is book seven. So the Hellenes who were waiting for the Persians in the region were 300 Spartan hoplites, a thousand men from Tegea and Manathea, each providing 500, 120 from Orcomenos in Arcadia and a thousand from the rest of Arcadia. There were all the troops that came from Arcadia. From Corinth, there were 400 hoplites. From Phlaos, 200. There were also 80 Mycenaeans. Those then were the troops who had come from the Peloponnese. And then there there's a list of a few others as well. So it's not only the 300. There are like a bunch of different people who were there as well. So it's a few thousand that we get up to, but it's still a few thousand against potentially hundreds of thousands of Persians that are coming their way. Man. And were the 300 like, hey, you guys stand back. We're going to get there. So there are multiple days of combat. And at first they're feeling pretty good, right? Like you cannot get past them without going through this mountain pass. And so it's a meat grinder, right? You just stand. Now you're going to get tired, but there's also like the other side, it gets too dark and they like literally can't attack you anymore, right? So there's kind of a built-in pause. Do you do a clear out every now and then of all the bodies? You have to, right? Yeah. Or do you just, I mean, like, I assume the attacking people are the ones who have to clear out the bodies. Cause if I'm defending, I'm just going to leave them there and make it climb over. And so the Persians try all kinds of different things. They have, again, there are like hundreds of different like people groups that make up the Persian army. They throw a bunch of them at the Greeks. Nothing is working, right? They have this, I completely skipped over this. There's this elite group within the Persians called the Immortals. The Immortals are a group of 10,000. Well, that's in the movie, isn't it? Yes. Now in the movie, they are like supernatural creatures that have sweet masks that they wear. The Immortals are the real ones are no, the warriors in the Persian army called the Immortals, not so they do, they are distinguished for their, the way they dress. They put on a lot of gold and like they, they look fancier than the other soldiers. And they're also like handpicked out of the entire army. You got to pay for those skins though. Yes, you do. Yeah. It's a, it's paid a win in the Persian army. Is that the problem? Yeah. You got to buy your V bucks to get your boxes. Yeah. And then Apple takes their cut. It's just really unfortunate. And what the, what Herodotus says is why they're called the Immortals is there's a set group of 10,000. First off, it's a cool name. Just want to be clear on that. Second is that there are exactly 10,000 of them. So when one dies, you like someone gets promoted. Yes. You get a new one. Pretend like no one died. Well, it's like the group is immortal, right? Because like you always maintain that 10,000, but they're, they're the elite. They are like the top warriors in the Persian army. They get war. So cool. No, we're going to be with 10,000 of them. Like, that's a pretty big number for like, now again, this is our elite crew by 10,000. I guarantee you, it means a myriad. Oh, and so it's like 30 guys. Yeah, sure. And so you should discount basically every number I say, except for the Greek one. Cause it has to be 300. Cause this is episode 300. And if that's not right, we've got a problem. Yeah. It'd be weirder if I had done a myriad of episodes. Some of our listeners feel that way for sure. So, so nothing is working for the Persians. They are not able to get through. And even Xerxes is threatened a few times is like, he has to jump out of the way of it's not arrows, but it's like spears or like, like he's threatened by this, this combat. So, you know, that all the guys that are like hucking spears as Xerxes, they're like putting bets on it. And he's like, Hey man, watch it. Watch it. So why can't you just do summaries of all these books? So some punk in the back. Now this is they're at an impasse and we're all, this is a matter of days we're talking about. So that's, they've not been fighting for long, but Xerxes has, he has many problems, but among his problems is that even if it's only hundreds of thousands of people, he needs water and food. And like he expected a quick battle that he would sweep in, conquer everything and then get out of there. But he's got to feed people. Yes. And so he like, can't be there for a long time. Like that's not going to work for his arm. He's got a burn rate. He has a burn rate and he has to kind of get in enough resources to make up for it. So that's a problem. And also he is like losing lots of people. And so his like grand army. That's helping with the burn rate. I guess. Yeah. But it kind of puts it at risk. Just take Daryl's food. Yeah, right. Puts at risk the rest of the battle. So ultimately there is a local person, Ephialtus, who came to speak with Xerxes, expecting to win some great reward for telling the king of the path that led through the mountain to Thermopylae. A secret pass. By so doing, he caused the destruction of the Hellene station there. This man later fled to Thessaly in fear of the Lacedaemonians. Oh yeah. They do not like you. And during his exile, a price was set on his head by the, by a group during a meeting of another group. After a while, he went back to where he was from, where he died at the hands of Athenides, a man of Trachis. This Athenides killed Ephialtus for another reason, which I shall explain in a later section of my story. Okay. I went to the footnote. Would you like to know where he discusses this? Yes. It's never discussed again. He doesn't tell us why he was killed. He's killed for an unrelated thing that Herodotus doesn't tell us. We can speculate on it in the in-between. Thank you. I'm just, I'm so annoyed by that. So, but he gets killed because this guy sucks, right? I feel like I've done that so many times in my ninth grade. I was like, oh, we'll talk about it Tuesday. We'll talk about it later. We never revisit. He's got a lot of content here, so I can understand him being a little distracted. So a local, a Greek reveals a path to Xerxes that is going to get around the, I'm going to say the Spartans, but like the Greeks, the warriors fighting there. And then it's just going to be an issue of getting flanked on both sides, right? So now you have combat on both sides and your small army is not going to be able to survive that. So the Persian army goes through this mountain pass, makes it to the other side. And the, everyone fighting understands what's about to happen. Like they understand that they had an advantage that they're losing very quickly and they don't, they, they eventually will see the guy squeezed. Yes. And it's just not going to, not going to work out. You're all going to die. So they have a choice because if you're going to die, like you can just leave, right? Like, what do you take your chances? Yeah. So those are your, you either take your chances and you could defeat them, but like, it's not going to happen. What are you going to tell your wife when you get home? What are you going to tell your kids when you get home? So same, cause that's the earlier, it's this law that is ruling the Spartans, right? And so they have something higher. They report to and their life is not that thing. So saving their life is not a win for them. If they have to dishonor themselves. That's right. There are two people who will, at least two people who I'm remembering offhand. I'm getting very nervous about the comments right now. I don't know, but man, I need to stop that. Who are, who survived this battle. And one of them is basically told to go and report back to the Spartans, like, Hey, this is what happened. And he is exiled for the rest of his life and ultimately will take his own life out of shame for having survived this battle. Is the Spartan, even though they told him to go back and to give the news. Yes. Is the Spartan where the like either come home with your shield or on it. Is that the, it's not in here, but basically the sentiment. And that's certainly like the law they are responding to is that whenever I have kids who have to leave my class early for like volleyball or soccer, I will always say that I'll say either come home with your shield or on it. And none of them know what it means, but I keep saying it. And so one day some kid's going to figure it out and be like, Mr. Dawson just basically said, I need to go die for Veritas or be victorious. Well, if they're going to miss class, you better come home with your shield or on it. Yeah. It was also said that another of these 300 men was sent away as a messenger to Thessaly and that he survived. His name was Panitas. And when he returned to Sparta, he suffered such dishonor that he hanged himself. So, dang. Yeah. That feels a little unfair, but you know. It does. If they send you out to give the news so that nobody else dies. Yeah. They flag that in the footnote, but it's almost like your duty is to be dishonored. I don't even know how to think through that, but. You're supposed to take the dishonor to save your life. Cause he does. I mean, he gets to be in the story and not all the 300 do. So like there is that, but. Maybe it's that they were the worst of the warriors. So everybody else that's like really good is like, hey, pick Daniel to go. Cause he's like, sucks at it. And maybe that's why they're so dishonored is because they were the ones chosen from the whole group. It certainly could be. Yeah. So the, so they, they can stay or they can leave and included in this group. And I haven't really gone into this is, so there are these 300 Spartans, right? But one of them is, so Sparta has two Kings, right? And so one of the two Kings of Sparta at the time is Leonidas. And so if he stays, that's a King of this city, state of this area is going to be the one with the Scottish accent. He's the one that Gerard Butler is, is Leonidas. That's right. He has a Scottish accent in the movie. He does. It's the movie is really weird. I went to watch clips yesterday. It's weird. We are, we are from Sparta. Yeah, that's exactly. It's like he's, he doesn't try to hide it. Like you just use anyway. It's very strange. Very growly. So it is also said that Leonidas himself, most of them away as he was worried that all of them might otherwise be killed. And this earlier, there's this, it's a strange line, but it's like a foreshadowing of this is that when Leonidas picked his 300, they all have sons. He, he made that choice going in, knowing presumably, and it will clarify that now that these men were not going to come back and to ensure that their household would continue. These were all men who had, yes, to continue on there. That's awesome. Their line. So he sent away most of them as he was worried they'd be killed, but he felt that for himself and the Spartans with them, it would not be decent to leave the post. They had originally come to guard. I myself, so Herodotus am most inclined to this opinion and think that when Leonidas perceived the allies lack of zeal and their reluctance to share with him in the danger ahead, he ordered them to leave. He perceived that it would be ignoble for him to leave the pass and that if he were to remain, he would secure lasting glory and assure that the prosperity of Sparta would not be obliterated. And that last one, you might think, I don't know if that's true. Cause like they get killed. Yeah. Cause like once they die, the Persians are marching down. Right. So for the Spart, so for, he, he justifies this in the next sentence for the Spartans had consulted the Oracle about the war at its very outset. So we get like a flashback. I don't know. This Herodotus guy, he writes a good story and the Pythia had told them that either Lacedaemon, so that's Sparta, right? Would be depopulated by the barbarians or their King would die. She answered them in these verses, as for you who dwell in the vast land of Sparta, either your city of glory will perish sacked by the proceeds by the Persians or else the boundary of Lacedaemon will grieve for the death of a King born of Heracles, since neither bulls nor lions have enough might to oppose him for the power of Zeus is his possession. And he, I declare will not be restrained until one or the other is torn apart. So who, the power of Zeus is in Leonidas. He's a, he's a descendant of Heracles. How could you leave your post? You gotta do it. If the Oracle was like, you are Zeus and you're gonna have to die for your country. I'd be like, yeah, let's go. If you don't, every school boy who ever reads this for the next 2000 years, he'd be like, yeah. So bearing in mind this Oracle and wanting to gain future glory for the Spartans alone. Wow. Leonidas sent the allies away rather than having them leave. This is why they left rather than because of a difference of opinion. So Leonidas sends them off to save their lives, but also like they'd be a liability. Yeah. But the Spartans are the real ones. Like he doesn't want these other, like slackers to be there with them getting in the way of all this and like getting, getting themselves killed and causing problems and fighting like this. Yes. So the closed hand, man, do you not know? Now I do want to say, and I, this is going to prompt an apology from Graham, I think. So there are two groups of people that stay here. It's the Spartans and it's the thespians and Graham, you've had some words against thespians recently. Yeah. So I just want you to, those Hamilton singing actors are the reason we have West are the reason we have Western civilization. Would you like to apologize right now to the Hamilton lovers in the crowd? Tell me more about these tests. It was acting like a thing in their country. It's we're thespis. Like it's not actually these people, but I wonder why we call actors, thespians, maybe the first guy, the first person who likes. Gather around. So there used to be the chorus, right? You know, so like the chorus is like the group of people who say stuff and they're, they're like, like fill in the gaps in the place. Yes. But the first person to step out of the chorus and have a part was thespis. And so actors ever since I've been thespian, after that, the chorus was always just like singing this thing. And then there was like, Ooh, he popped out and all of a sudden he got like dialogue. Cause it's like innovation in theater was like, Hey, what if we had characters? So though, the Lacedaemonians and the thespians alike proved themselves to be brave in the battle. It has said that the Spartan who do we remember the Spartans? No, you're right. That's okay. And there are a couple savage, super cool things that happened. So one is the Spartans realize they're going to die. And so just think about that. It's the day before your death, your King has said we are staying because that's what we as Spartans do. And also we are going to save our town by dying. Like that's the Oracle is that you need this death of a King and then his, his crew with him to secure safety for Sparta. So like you're going to die tomorrow. What is your, what do you do the day before? Like, what are you, how are you preparing for that next day? Give me like anything. Give me a couple of guys, a good meal. You got to eat something. Yeah. I'm going to eat a lot of beef. And that's the thing is like, now I don't have to worry about health. Right. That's a good point. Yeah. I'm going to smoke a cigarette. Yeah. I'll tell you that. Like I'm going to smoke a, I'm going to smoke a, like a couple of cigarettes. I'm gonna do my thing. I'm going to have a really good meal right now. Honestly, it'd be my pot roast. Really? I make a, I make a mad pot. Last meal. We should talk about where our last meal. Yeah. Okay. Well, as of right now, that's what I'm thinking, but it might change when we, if we actually like, I mean, I know the answer to this. What's yours? We were just talking about this. So what there's a, there's a Persian scout who comes in, like looks at the, the Spartans is trying to like see what they're up to in preparation for battle. Hoping they're crying. Yeah. Like freaking out. Like they're, they're facing death the next day. And what they're doing is they are fixing their hair. They're like making themselves look good to, to like it's the, to win glory for themselves the next day. They didn't go down as punks. They didn't go down crying. They went down, they faced it and they were ready for it. That's the thing. Like, if I know I'm going to die, you better believe I'm taking as many of those Persian fools with me. Yes. Like I, I am going to go. Cause I get that quaff on. You got to feel good. Cause if you are going to die, like you're like, I know I'm going to die. The question is how many can I take out beforehand? Like I will risk, you can risk everything. You're no longer really worried about protecting yourself. You got to go in eyebrows on fleek. Yep. I don't, I don't like that. I haven't thought about that since 2015. Nobody has used fleek in a long time. It was a short lived, but you got to go in feeling good. You got to shine those boots up. Yeah. I would want to sing songs with my brothers, like sing a few songs of glory. Oh my God. Like have my last meal, smoke a cigarette, sing some songs of glory. And then like, look at the stars a little bit. Sleep good. I like this. So the, so he, so that's what they see. So they're, you know, getting themselves ready. And I might be, I'm trying to make sure I'm not out of order on this. Anyway. So they, yeah. Getting, getting themselves looking all right. That might've been, well, anyway, so then the, so then the battle happens, right? So then they, they go to fight the Spartans. I'm sorry. The Spartans and the Persians fight. And this is another, this is, I was just about to read in this section. So, I'll just read the story. So I just mentioned the Spartans and the thespians alike proved themselves. It said that the Spartan, Diana keys proved himself to be the most valiant man of all. It is reported that before the Hellenes engaged the Medes in battle, one of the Trek Indian said that there were so many barbarians that whenever they shot their arrows, the sun was blocked by their number. Diana keys was not alarmed to hear this, but rather in total disregard for the vast number of Medes and that what his Trek Indian friend had reported was in fact, good news since it meant that while the Medes were blocking the sun, they would fight them in the shade. It's such a great line. It's such a good line. This saying and others like it have been left as a memorial of Diana keys, the Lacedaemonian and that's so good. It is still the motto of the Greek army today. It's on there, the Greek army crest. What is it? We shall fight in the shade. So it's even in this like overwhelming odds, you are not going to fight this. It's like, it's gallows humor, right? Like they're just like making the best of it right then. And the battle's not over just because of. Cause like, what do you say? Like that will suck. We will certainly die. Terrible. Yeah. I'll be horrible. Arrows, you know, it's coming anyway. It's yeah. So then they fight. And as you say, the Greeks do as much damage as they can. The Spartans do as much damage as they can. They are fighting as, because they will die at the end of this. They take out a bunch of the Persians, but ultimately everyone is killed. So Leonidas dies, I think early in the fairly early in the battle, all things considered. So actually what happened, what happens is I believe Leonidas is killed. And then there's a scuffle over his body, but that like motivates the Spartans to fight more, to get his body, pull it back. But eventually everyone is, is killed. Does it have numbers for how many they killed before dying? Millions. It probably would say that it doesn't, it goes straight from that story I just read. It lists a few other heroes, but doesn't really say what they did. And then goes into, they were buried just where they had fallen. And for these men, as well as for those who had met their end before Leonidas could send them away, an inscription was erected, which says, he uses the 3 million number, but 3 million foes were once fought right here by 4,000 men from the Peloponnese. That inscription applied to them all, but the Spartans have one of their own. Tell this passerby to the Lacedaemonians. It is here that we lie. Their commands we obey. Wait, so did Xerxes set up all of those things? No. In Greece later on? Later on. He doesn't say he doesn't. I was gonna say, that seems like a pretty nice thing to do. You gotta respect him. I hope he does at the end of all that. Makes sense that they were buried right there, just because you can't have like stinky bodies around while your whole army is passing through. That's not gonna be good. That is true. But now it means that if you travel to that spot, you can like walk over the space where those guys are, you know, were buried. Yeah. It's pretty intense. What happens to Xerxes? He keeps going. So we're almost exactly at the end of book seven. And it doesn't actually finish the story of Xerxes. Is he gonna win? No. So the, I mean, we'll do book eight eventually, but the Persians will lose a battle fairly soon after this. So this battle, the story rules, just wanna be clear, but it is a loss, right? Like it is a loss for the Greeks and it does then allow the Persians to move south. There are kind of different thoughts of like what this accomplishes. This is like a rallying cry in the same way that the Alamo becomes for Texas. It's like a rallying cry of like, if the Spartans are willing to do this, a king is willing to die. Like we also have to kind of rise up and fight these Persians. It buys time for the Greeks to get this army together. And it also, like I said, causes issues for Xerxes because he can't stall his plan. Like people will die from hunger. People will die from thirst. There are stories in Herodotus, so take it with a grain of salt, of the Persians emptying rivers when they drink, right? Like there are so many of them that rivers are reduced to nothing as they pass through. So they have to keep moving. But ultimately the Greeks will be successful. They will fend off the Persians. There's kind of like a few big wins that the Greeks have. And then there are some small losses that occur after that. And there's a small loss on the Greek side, but it's enough damage to the Persians that the whole thing fizzles out. And then Persians go back home, Greeks stay where they are, and you know, Greece stays to this day, right? So that is, let me make sure I got everything. I've read the inscription. I don't know if this, the translation I just read kind of conveys it. So it is here that we lie, their commands we obey. Others will point, will bring in that law concept even more strictly. So this is a public domain one. Go tell the Spartans stranger passing by that here obedient to their laws, we lie. So the thing that they attest to is that higher law that they fall under. And ultimately we're willing to give their lives to. And that is book seven of Herodotus. So good. That was awesome. All right. Let's do an in-between. Let's talk about, there's some smaller characters I left out, a few other stories. So let's go through that. All right. Well, this has been Classical Stuff You Should Know with Graham, AJ, and Thomas. Three of the 300. No. I hope not. No, not cool enough for that. You can email us at theguysatclassicalstuff.net. You can patronize it at Classical Stuff with Patreon. You can tweet at us at Classical Stuff, spell it wrong. You can find us on classicalstuff.net. Email us at theguysatclassicalstuff.net. And thanks for listening. Thanks for listening. If you've hit, if you've read, I'm sorry, if you've listened to all 300 episodes, why don't you just drop a comment in whatever you're listening to, saying like, I've listened to all 300, and you too can be part of the 300 club, and we'll all march off to death together. Wow. It's got really weird. This is tough. Thanks everyone. I don't wanna comment. Like, maybe not. Okay, fine, fine. Just mention, if you've listened to all 300 episodes, you can say I've listened to all 300 episodes, and you can tell us what the meal you're gonna eat the night before being slaughtered by the Persians. I do wanna know that. Yeah, that would be cool. We wanna hear your final meal. And thanks for listening. Yep, thanks for listening. Bye. All right, bye.