Ranked: The Longest-Lasting Cars You Can Buy Today: Ep. 134

If you want a long-lasting vehicle, the choices are pretty obvious. But what's maybe surprising is just how much two brands dominate the list of vehicles that will last until 250,000 miles. Recently, iccars.com published just such a list, and we'll have on Karl Brauer, their executive analyst, to discuss. If you're the sort of person who likes to drive a car until it disintegrates, you'll want to stick around. Hey, welcome back, Karl. It's only been a week or so since we last talked, but there's a lot going on at IC Cars lately, publishing a lot of stuff. Maybe before we dig into it, anything new and interesting in your world? You know, just getting gearing up for a couple weeks of travel, you know, four press events in a row between Monday and Friday, the 2nd of October. So I'm going to be a traveling man nonstop the next two weeks, but glad we could talk about this topic before I head out and cover off what's kind of our biggest deal study of the year. Cool. Yeah. And I guess the next time we chat, you'll be like, oh, I can tell you all about all these cars that we're not allowed to talk about right now. Exactly. Exactly. Great. So maybe if you could give me like an overview on, so this is your study. You've just published most recently a cars that will last 250,000 miles. But even a week before that, you had actually dropped a brands that will. And so I don't know if you could give us a little insight on both of them and maybe from there we can go through, like last time I prepared a bunch of slides so we can look at like, you know, model by model, segment by segment, stuff like that. Absolutely. Well, yeah, the longest lasting study is really kind of the biggest deal thing we do. Certainly it's, I think, a very powerful study. And I feel like IC Cars has really kind of owned this space. You know, we have access to all these vehicle listings have for 12, 13 years. We can tell what different cars are being advertised at what different mileage points and when they stop being advertised, presumably because they're no longer available and you see the price dropping and the miles going up. So eventually all these cars go away. And I like to say two things kill every car, time and miles. And time kills every car eventually, except for like, you know, Ferrari GTOs and Mustang GT350Rs and Cobra Coupes, because no one's gonna let those cars die. But all normal cars eventually are taken out by time. The question is, how many miles will they cover before time takes them out? And the less it costs to maintain the car for the longest amount of time, the longer it will last. In other words, if you've got a 10-year-old car and it's costing you five grand a year to maintain it and its value is six grand, you're probably not going to maintain it much longer. But if you have a 10-year-old car and it's worth 10 grand and it costs $400 a year to keep it going, you probably will drive it for another couple of years before you let it go. And so it's a very good reflection of how well built a car was and how well it holds up over time. How soon does its economic viability fall away, basically? Yeah, no, that makes sense. It's sort of the, I always think of with used cars, the saying of, you know, spending a good money after bad, right? Like you don't want to be in that situation where you have a car that's worth $1,500 and then you're replacing a transmission on it. Like that's just, makes no sense, right? It's like, just send that off to the junkyard, right? Push it off. Yeah, start over. Okay. So, yeah. And so that's what we've been studying for a long time. And we had, like you said, we initially released the brand study. What we did is we looked at each car within a given model line or brand, and we figured out how long it lasts. And then we got an overall average for each of the cars in that brand. And then we ranked the brands based on that kind of overall score each brand got. So that was what we released earlier. And then we just released the models. So you could tell not only which brands are ranked where, but what models are ranked where. Not surprisingly, Toyota was the highest ranking brand. And when we got to the models, there were a lot of Toyotas at the top of the list too. So not too surprising there. You kind of saw it coming once you saw the brands a week earlier. But we had 395 million cars that we looked at. And the benchmark we're looking at is 250,000 miles. And it's interesting, I should note, Collin, that we've been doing this study for 12 years. And when we started it, we only did it to 200,000. And actually, I think we only did it to 150 very early on. And then we moved to 200. And then years ago, we moved to 250 because it was getting too easy to get to each of those benchmarks, which is a good indicator of how long cars will last. And one of the things I like to tell people is that the downside, as we all know, is that cars have never been more expensive new and used. The upside is you used to buy a 100,000-mile car and think, why am I buying this? It's pretty much a disposable car at this point. Now, 100,000-mile car might not even be halfway through its lifespan, very potentially. So that's the good news. Especially if it's a Toyota. Especially if it's a Toyota, according to our data. So that's the good news, is while you're spending more for any given used car, and people who want to meet a certain budget might have to go years older than they used to. Instead of buying a three-year-old car, you have to buy a seven-year-old car, which our study had shown recently, our used car pricing study. So now you're buying a seven-year-old car for the same money that used to get you a three-year-old car. Thankfully, depending on which seven-year-old car you bought, and this is why we do our longest-lasting study, you might still have a long time left to utilize that car, even at seven years and 100,000 miles, as an example. So that's kind of the foundation. How many of these cars are getting to 250,000? And then the scores we have on both the brands and the models, if you want to jump into them. Sure. And so actually, before we even do that, I guess I hadn't read through your methodology earlier. And so you kind of just explained it, but I guess that's interesting. So it really is, it's more positive-based based on the listings showing 250,000 miles. Because I was kind of thinking to myself, wouldn't it be funny to get a list of the cars least likely to make that range? But the data kind of wouldn't show that, right? Because you're looking for a negative in that Right. And there's also something else important to keep in mind. Remember, how many miles will the car cover before time takes it out? So what you'll find very commonly when we look at cars that never seem to make it to 250,000 miles are things like Porsche 911s. Are Porsche 911s terribly built cars? No, they're actually really well-built cars. Why aren't they making it 250,000 miles, Carl? Because nobody's driving a Porsche 911 250,000 miles, right? That's a very specific car. Very few people are daily driving it. They're not going to just use it for vacations and daily driving and off-roading and all that. What is someone going to use for a whole lot of different things, off-roading, soccer practice runs, grocery runs, daily driving, towing and vacations across the country? A three-row SUV. So every three-row SUV and similarly trucks that have all these multipurpose uses, every highly utilitarian vehicle with a wide span of functionality is going to be driven more than a small economy car that's really just good for commuting and fuel efficiency or a sports car that's really just good for weekend canyon runs or maybe a road trip every now and again. So that's something to keep in mind is that a car not making it to 250,000 doesn't necessarily mean it's a terrible car. It means its use case won't ever get it to 250,000, not before time pretty much takes it out. It's just too old and worn out to get to 250,000 miles. Yeah. Good point. Yeah. Basically if you went, if you went, if you looked at, if you could get the negative data, it would be kind of useless because it's going to show a lot of cool cars that people just, you know, a lot of Bugattis on the list. Yeah, exactly. There's no Veyrons getting to 250,000 miles for some reason, you know, call them. I'm not sure, but it's just not getting there. That's a challenge for some billionaire out there right now. Go. There you go. The gauntlet's been thrown. Let's get, let's get a Veyron to a quarter million miles. I'm sure all the billionaires listening to the podcast. So that's, yeah, they're, they're up for the challenge now. Yeah. Yeah. With all their spare time. Um, so, so yeah, so here's our list overall. This is your list. I see cars of, of the longest lasting overall, uh, Toyota is, I'm looking at this, including Lexus, they are nine of the top 10. They're basically the whole. Yeah. The Honda Accord, the first non Toyota Lexus product sneaks in at number 10 for the Honda Accord, a hybrid, uh, sedan. And otherwise it's all Toyota Lexus in the first top in the first 10. And when you go to the 27, and by the way, we have 27 that we included in the list because these were all the cars that were at least twice as likely the average chance for a car to get to 250,000 miles across all vehicles is 5.4%. That's the average chance. If you just, yeah, it's pretty slim column. If you just throw a dart at the, at the board of all the models sold in this country, you get a 5.4 chance on average, but the Sequoia, as you noted has a 42% chance, right? So it's 7.9 times as likely almost eight times as likely to get to 250,000 miles as the average car, which is pretty impressive. If you ask me, that is well, I actually, one of your like bullet points on the study actually, it was a Toyota is yeah. 19 points out. So basically a 20% chance of reaching 250,000 miles. If you buy a Toyota, that's like, you know, one in five is a pretty good as, as the brand goes, as just the brand goes across all the models. And on average, they have a 19% call it 2019 and change 20% chance one in five chance. If you buy a Toyota that it can get to 250,000 miles. And again, the average is 5.4%. So that's pretty impressive. Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. Um, I didn't put, uh, those who are, I guess if they, if they can't see if they're listening, they can't see the visual anyway, but yeah, I can only fit 16 of your 27 on the, on the screen. Otherwise it'd be so small and no one could read it. So, well, and again, so a couple of other things to know about those top 27, the last one is the Honda Odyssey, which is got a 10.7% chance. So it's right at twice the average and, uh, of the 27 on the list, two of them are not Honda or Toyota products. I mean, there's a bunch of Toyotas, a bunch of Lexus, a bunch of Hondas, a bunch of backyards. And then there's at number, I think it was like six 14, the Mercedes Benz G class. So it gets in there and it's not a Honda or a Toyota and the, um, Chevrolet Suburban. Yeah. Those are the two non Toyota or Honda products on the list. And again, what are those things? They're big body on frame SUVs. So the basic construction of them, pretty durable body on frame and the use case for them pretty varied can do lots and lots of different things without, you know, skipping a beat and stuff. They're not, not going to probably take one to the track. Not going to be great, you know, for, uh, for going around twisty road or, you know, tail the dragon and stuff, but I'm pretty much anything else that you could think to do with a car. They're going to do real well. Yeah. Well, interesting. G class is kind of an outlier in that it's a, you know, sort of super luxury vehicle in a sense, but then sort of over-engineered for daily use. Right. It, we, we, we know, and you've probably been on Mercedes press trips where they take G classes and do some crazy off-roading that kind of like land rovers that no one who owns one would actually go into, but, but they've engineered really high and, you know, and so they, they, they sort of last and I'm fascinated to see that it's on the list because it's a vehicle, you know, it would sort of mentally in my mind kind of be there with those Porsches that don't get driven a lot, but clearly who knew people who buy those G classes drive them like crazy. So good for them. Well, the other thing to keep in mind too, is that I think a lot of people who bought the first owners first bought the new car buyers for G classes probably are treating them not quite like a nine 11, but they're probably getting a pretty, you know, luxurious life and stuff. They're making runs from, you know, Beverly Hills down to the Rodeo and back and stuff, but they're, they're going to eventually get sold. And a second, third, fourth owner, they're going to be like, you know, by then what money they paid and the, and all those capabilities, those cars have that the first owner and maybe second owner would never consider the third, fourth, fifth owner's like, look at this thing's off road. Okay, but let's go, you know, and they're starting to use them more like a suburban by the second, third, fourth owner than the, than the first owner would have. And then they get the Whereas a nine 11, no, but the fourth owner isn't going to suddenly, you know, drive that thing all the time and daily drive it necessarily. They're going to still probably treat it like a sports car. So yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. Cool. So if we move on to, I was, I was hitting my wrong slide button here. These are the, Oh, these are your brands. We, we, you sort of mentioned that at the top. So Toyota at the top and then number two is Lexus, which is also Toyota. So not a big Yeah. And then three is Honda and four is Acura also kind of Honda. And then five is GMC. And those are the only five that are above average. GMC has got a 5.8% chance. Then Acura is 9.5, Honda is 13.4, Lexus 14.4 and Toyota, like we said, 19.7. So it's like that class where you got a couple of brilliant kids that screw up the curve for everyone, right? Toyota and Honda do such a good job and really so does Lexus and Acura. Those four brands do such a good job that they raise the bar that for like the average, you know, brand and all of a sudden, you know, Mazda barely is below average 5.3, Lincoln's at 4.7 and it just falls from there. Ram's 4.2, Ford's 4.1, Cadillac's 3.9. It just falls after the GMC below average because those five brands, especially the first four are so good. Well, that's it. I like your analogy. It's kind of, you know, you sat in class when it was that one kid who knew the answer to every question and you were like, yeah, that bastard. And this is what every other automaker feels about Toyota and Honda. They're like making us look bad. Yes, that's exactly it. So going into like trucks, I mean, I was a little surprised that despite the, you know, Toyota-ness, there's a Ram right at the top of the list. Well, but here's the flip side of that, right? So when we don't have heavy duties, we just do light duties. Then of course, Toyota, Tundra, and Tacoma are all over the place. You have to roll in heavy duties. These are heavy duty trucks called. They're built that much tougher. They're meant for that much more heavy duty use, a lot of fleet sales, a lot of industrial use and stuff like that. So when you throw the light duty, mostly consumer-oriented Tundra and Tacoma in with the heavy duties and the light duties from the domestics and the rest of the brands, the Ram just ekes out a win over the Tundra. It's 31.9% likelihood of getting a 250 and the Tundra is 28.2. And then the Sierra 3500 HD is 26.2. So you got two 3500 trucks bracketing the Toyota light duty truck. And then right after the Sierra number three is the Tacoma at 25% chance of getting there. And then it falls all into super duties and light duties below that. So again, Toyota gets eked out with a light duty truck barely by a heavy duty truck. Yeah. And those things are, yeah, they're engineered, you know, the frame on a heavy duty truck, which sort of, you know, they drop an atomic bomb, but it's still be there. Even if the rest of the frame is still going to last. Yeah. Yeah. They're not really, they're engineered at a whole nother level of use. And they just barely, the one truck ekes out a slight win over the Tundra. And then the next highest truck that's also heavy duty is behind the Tundra. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's until Toyota finally makes themselves a heavy duty. Exactly. Exactly. You just feel like it's got to happen one of these days and then everyone's in trouble. So, yes, yes. So, so we're, we're like rifling through them here. Longest lasting SUVs. Oh no. A lot of Toyotas. Is there even, Oh yes. The first Honda is at six. So it was Sequoia forerunner. I noticed it's interesting. It's the Lexus RX, but specifically the hybrid that lasts longer rather than like, I don't, I don't think I see it. Oh no. The regular RX shows up in 10. And so that's a great point. I'm glad you brought that up because there's a lot of hybrids on this list. And a lot of people would be like hybrids. I thought that more complex, you know, drive train be more likely to have problems at all. Well, first of all, I think there's a lot of people that now know, you know, we've got the proof of like 2004, that first year of kind of the non Japanese market version of the Prius that are driving around. They still have their original batteries. These are 22 year old Priuses and they're still using their original battery. Now I'm not sure what the capacity is out on those batteries, but they, the cards are still running again, Toyota. And the flip side to think about too, is not only are the batteries in these hybrids showing up well, but again, what, what kills a car time? What's the role? What's the goal here? Or what's the, what's, how does a car get longest lasting? It gets driven a lot before time takes it out. What's one of the things that would help you want to drive a car even more calm, making it nice and efficient, low fuel efficiency, low operating costs, right? So what's going to help a car get to 250 before time takes it out. A hybrid is going to help it because it's going to cost that much less to drive it to 250,000 miles than the equivalent non-hybrid or other types of cars. So it's not uncommon for the hybrids to outrank the non-hybrids of the same. If the cars are otherwise offered in the same drive, you know, same style, but two different drive trains, the hybrids often win because they're cheaper to drive a lot. So they get driven more. And I mean, how many Ubers have you seen that are Priuses, right? Or, or some other form of hybrid. So you get a lot of cars that are almost probably getting fleet-like use that are, you know, like, like a hybrid is more likely to be in fleet type use than the non-hybrid of the same car. Absolutely. I remember, yeah, when those, those sort of original, you know, like you said, sort of the second gen Prius came out, like that was, if you walked out of LAX, there was, you saw nothing but a sea of Priuses. Like there was every single cab. I don't know, Uber was kind of barely a thing then, but, but, you know, I think I was telling you, I just got back from the airport moments ago and it was a CRV hybrid was what took me home. So, yeah. So you got all these people using these hybrids more aggressively than non-hybrids because of the operating cost. And now hybrids are starting to show up all over our longest lasting list. Interesting to see too, that like a lot of these, you're not at the very top, but a lot of them are, they're not body on frame. They're actually, you know, sort of unibody, like, like a, a CRV and HRV, you know, things like a RAV4, they're not truck frame vehicles. Because I always, you know, I had this instinct in my head for years of, of kind of thinking that a, I know it's on your list that actually SUVs outrank sedans or like cars overall. And I would think that cars would be mostly these days, front wheel drive, some rear wheel drive, they'd be simpler and therefore more likely to last, but that doesn't seem to have a big impact. No, I think gratefully, thankfully we've gotten to the point where the complexity of hybrid drive trains. I don't think this was true 20 years ago, although again, those early Priuses are still running around, but generally speaking, there was a learning curve. Toyota was pretty on it right from the start of the 21st century, but there was a learning curve on figuring out how to make that complex dual drive train hybrid system, not just work, but be durable and non-troublesome over years. But I think they've all figured it out now. This has become, remember I always like in hybrid technology to fuel injection, right? Fuel injection once upon a time was the exotic, expensive technology for performance cars and premium luxury cars. And by 1985, 86, you couldn't build a car in the US and not have fuel injection, or you wouldn't get enough fuel efficiency and low emissions to pass the emissions tests. And now you can't build a car without fuel injection. We're getting to the point like a RAV4, for instance, there is no non-hybrid version of a RAV4, one of the best selling cars in the US. So hybrid technology has become almost like the 21st century's fuel injection. It's just going to become everywhere. And it's good because the motors keep getting smaller and keep getting less expensive, but yet they're getting more powerful. And the same thing with the batteries. And so the cost of adding a hybrid technology to an otherwise traditional drive train is getting to be like fuel injection, adding it. The incremental cost was more than worth it because of the benefits for fuel injection. And we're getting there now with hybrid technology. Interesting. I think that's an interesting analogy because I think about like, it's true. If you see like, there's a lot of cars from maybe the late 80s, you'd see, and it advertised, it would say fuel injection right on it. You're like, oh, at the time, like clearly that was cool. Right. And so I wonder now, like, like people would look back and see a RAV4 that actually had a hybrid badge because now they're all hybrids. They won't advertise it anymore. And so, you know, 20 years from now, people will be like, oh my goodness, look, they thought hybrid was interesting. And it's, it'll just become the norm. So, well, it's funny. One of my favorite movies, American Graffiti. And at the very end, they're getting in an airplane and over the door of the airplane, it says radar equipped. It's like, that was a big deal in 1963, when that movie took place. I guess so. Yeah. You wouldn't want to be getting on a non-radar equipped plane. So we talked about the SUVs. Here are the sedans of, you know, Toyota, Honda dominating, Lexus LS at the top though, which I think is pretty, you know, well-known to be a bulletproof machine, I think. No, I mean, I think Lexus, you know, because the Avalon's right below it, you could argue that the Avalon is like Toyota's most luxurious sedan and the LS is Lexus's most luxurious sedan. And so you could argue that those things probably got extra level of just engineering quality. They wanted refinement. They wanted those things built really well. And the same things, they're going to make them super refined and premium feeling, making sure they're really smooth. You know, the engines are using all the like best stuff to make them smooth. Probably also makes them last longer because there's not as much vibration going on and all that. And again, kind of like the G-Class, the first LS driver probably isn't pounding on that thing a lot, but if it won't die and it has five owners before the thing finally dies, the third, fourth, fifth owner, they don't care that it's got a Lexus badge. It didn't cost them, you know, 80,000. It cost them 12,000 or 14,000. And they're loving how luxurious it is. They're driving the heck out of it. They're driving it everywhere. I saw on my way to the airport on Wednesday, I saw one, an original one, and it was like pristine shape. I still see them. I still see them. And I don't know if you were on this column, but probably like 10 years ago, Lexus took us to Costa Rica and it was kind of like a celebration of the brand. And they showed us all this old stuff there, of course, an LFA there to get us all excited when it revved its engine. But they had an original LS 400 and you could take it and drive it. And they'd found some low mileage, ultra clean one and bought it wisely. Toyota had, Lexus had, and now it was in their fleet. And it was so cool driving it, mostly because you drove it and you're like, this feels like a, basically a brand new car. Like it was maybe not quite as like smooth and refined or as quiet at highway speeds as like the newest, like Mercedes or Lexus, but it was really close. And it was from 1989. I think it's a great point. You see that a lot of times the brands, like you mentioned, they sort of, they probably over-engineer the LS, the Avalon, because they know that really, if it's going to be your flagship product, you can't take risks with those. And if it's there, I wonder how much in respect to their loss leaders for the company sometimes too, like, I don't think the S-class is a loss leader for Mercedes, but I think that, you know, for some brands, they're willing to take a little bit of a, probably a haircut on the profits because they're like, look, this needs to be top tier. We need to compete. Especially if you think about those old Lexus, when they were trying to, you know, elbow their way in with all the Germans, they were probably doing everything they could to be like, we need to stick to the German series, even if it costs us a little bit. So I remember those original commercials with all the champagne glasses stacked up to show how smooth the engine was. So that level of engineering that translates to that level of smoothness probably translates clearly from the data we've got into long life too. Yeah. Interesting. All right. So, and then we've got, I don't go through all of these, but this is by category. I always think this is interesting because to me, it's like, you know, a million cards on a sheet of paper. Great. Right. But if you look at it by category, a lot of people shop by category, right? They're like, oh, I need a compact SUV, right? That's what they're doing. And it's like, okay, so here you go, Honda CRV, best chance of hitting 250,000 miles. I feel like that's how people often will buy vehicles. You're like, oh, I want something premium. I don't need something big. I want a compact, you know, I want an X3 or a Audi Q5 or whatever it is. And you just kind of know what you're going to get though. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Some people are very brand and or brand and model oriented. Some people are very vehicle type oriented. I don't know what I want, except it has to be a small SUV, you know? So yeah, we wanted to break it out by categories and identify the best vehicle in each category. And yeah, you got in the small SUV categories, compact and subcompact, you got Hondas, either a CRV or an HRV, but then once you get midsize and full size, it's Toyota again, 4Runner and Sequoia. And again, also the variation between the types of categories and the length, the chance, you know, fascinating that the longest lasting luxury subcompact SUV. Now admittedly, that's kind of a niche brand, you know, you're talking about people who want to spend a lot of money for a luxury badge, but they are so budget constrained. It has to be the smallest, you know, SUV possible. So it's subcompact luxury SUV and it's the Land Rover Range Rover Evoque, but it's only got a 1.2% chance of getting to 250,000 miles. So it's the longest lasting one in that category, but none of that category has got a very good shot at getting there, you know? And then you go to compact, it's the RDX with a 6.7% chance, the Acura, and then midsize is Lexus GX 23.3 and the luxury full size back to the Mercedes G-Class at a 17.3% chance. There's so much, there's like minutia there, like the Land Rover, I was going to ask you later on about like, are there any real outliers? That Land Rover seems like probably the biggest outlier of the group, right? The RDX is interesting too, because I'd be curious, I don't know how you'd have to really dig into the data for this, but to see like, you know, the early turbocharged versions that was like ages ago, I don't know if those held up as well. And then they basically moved to like, you know, the V6 that Honda's used in kind of every single product that's larger than a certain size since, and that's one of those like, it doesn't really have to work that hard to move a vehicle that size around. My father-in-law has an RDX with a V6 and it's like, yep, it's a good old reliable V6, right? Yeah, no, it's chilling most of the time as it moves that car around. Yeah. Okay, so I've got trucks mentioned really quickly, Tacoma at the top, Tundra, Ram, we kind of ran through those already. Yeah. To me, it just speaks to that whole, like you mentioned, it's the, you own a car, the resale value is really high on those, you know, on the Tacoma and Tundra. And people are often like, yeah, I don't want to buy a used one because they're so damn expensive. But if you were going to then drive for the next 15 years, you know, it's not that expensive if you're going to own it for 15 years, so. No, I know. I mean, every time I would look at those cars, I had the exact same, I was like, why would I buy a used one? God, they're almost as much as the new and stuff. And then you realize it's like, yeah, that's because even at 40,000 miles and five years old, they're really not still new. They're still basically like a new vehicle in terms of the percentage of life that's gone from them, so. Yeah, yeah. So here's your longest lasting passenger cars list. I think this is the last of the group. Kia Rio 5-door as a subcompact, that kind of surprised me. The other ones, you know, not a big shock, but maybe Mercedes CLA for luxury subcompact, I guess, kind of a niche again, so. Yeah, yeah. We're back to that. It's like you talk about outliers, it's like all the luxury subcompact categories, whether it's SUVs or cars, they're all outliers because there's just not that many of them and, you know, the people buying them and how much they're being driven and all, so. I bet you that list would be different in Europe because they'd have more choice in those segments, right? Like here, nobody buys that, but in Europe, there'd be all these other teeny, you know, BMWs and Audis that we just don't get, so. And they drive them more aggressively over there, too. They'd buy them and then they would just, they probably wouldn't replace it in, you know, three or five years, wouldn't lease it. They'd buy it and drive it till its wheels fell off and get a lot of miles on it. Yeah, yeah. So, fascinating. This is a very cool list. Any other, like, do you think, like, just general, like, caveats when you look at these lists or, you know, any other lessons to learn? Go back to the hybrid and electric category. Oh, did I not put that on here or is that? I don't know if we just, I don't know if you discussed that. I think it fell into something else. I don't have that slide up, so apologies. But, so let's, let's talk about it because I know you've got it there somewhere and I can find it on my screen, I think. Yeah, I mean, I just thought it was, it was interesting because it's the longest lasting hybrids and EVs and really there's only two electric vehicles, three electric vehicles on this list. There's 13 of them and we just put them all on here. We didn't just do the ones above average because there weren't enough if you throw the EVs in. So, none of the EVs are above average. If you take the hybrids and EVs as a one group instead of breaking out only hybrids and only EVs, the average chance is 8.2% which is more than the 5.4% for all cars. So, that reflects well on how well hybrids are doing as we discussed and why. But then EVs are all below average, drastically below. The best EV to get to, the EV with the best chance of getting to 250,000 miles is the Tesla Model X. Again, a three-row SUV. So, it's that, you know, can do so many things, people drive it more aggressively. But it's only got a 3.6% chance. So, it's still below the industry average and below even the hybrid EV average which is 8.2. And then you got the, the Model S, 3.1% chance of getting to 250,000. And then the Nissan Leaf which statistically had a 0% chance of getting to 250,000. Probably again, think about that. Again, that's probably not necessarily about the least quality. It's like most leaves because this is all the leaves that we can do. It's not just the newest one. That's all the leaves that we can look at for data. A lot of them are the early generations that had 100 or 150 mile range. How aggressively are you going to drive a car when it takes, when it needs to be filled up every 100 to 150 miles? So, even the second gen, my brother-in-law has the, like the very first of the second gens and the range on those still isn't very much, right? Like, it's, you have to, you almost, you know, you'd spend so much time charging to be able to get to that high of mileage. Like you just, you can't do it. It's a great like putt-putt commuter car. My sister-in-law used to go back and forth to work and stuff like that, but it's like, yeah, you'd be hard-pressed to put the hard miles on it because it just wouldn't work for that. Yeah, it would take too long to get there because of the charging time, like you said. So, I just think it's interesting that, you know, and we needed a certain amount of EVs. Remember, there's a heck of a lot more than just a Model S, Model X, and a Leaf out there, but those are the ones that are old enough and have enough like threshold data for us to do calculations for longer, longest lasting. We can't calculate the longest lasting on a Nissan Aria because it's only been out a couple years and there weren't that many sold and of course now it's been canceled again. So, we'll never really know that thing's longest lasting potential because there just isn't enough to have a pool of vehicles to get a good sense of from. Yeah. But that was interesting to me that the hybrids and EVs combined still have a great score even with the EVs doing terribly, pulling it down, but the rest of the hybrids more than offset it. I'll be curious to see how this evolves year after year because it doesn't surprise me that a lot of EVs will pull it down and even continue to do so, but then there'll be some, I think, just based on pure volume of sales of Model Ys and Model 3s, they are going to go up. And like Prius, a lot of those are getting used as Ubers and stuff like that. When they've been around long enough to make our baseline threshold that we need for sample size to do longest lasting, it'll be very interesting, like you say, Colin. Now, what happens with Model 3s and Model Ys and where do they land in this area? Yeah. Probably still not up with the Toyota hybrids, but it'll be interesting to see. I was really surprised that you mentioned Model X. That's actually not a terrible stat for a vehicle like that. For a pure EV. Yeah. And those did have, because they had the huge battery packs, they did have good range. They're the kind of things like you're in California. I guess California probably see a lot of EVs everywhere, but I think if you're driving once a highway five up the middle of the state, up to San Francisco, or whatever, and from LA to San Fran or whatever, when you're on those long stretches of highway where you still see those Teslas on those range- They're everywhere. They're everywhere. But you're less likely to see someone driving a lower range EV, a Kia or something that just doesn't have a big range. Because if you own a Model X, yeah, you're going to get all the way from LA to San Francisco on that charge and you don't have to worry about it. And if you can do that and charge at your hotel when you get there, you will just pack the miles on something like that. Well, and you also have the Tesla network that the Kias and the other EVs might not have to further give you confidence to take those longer road trips and all. But like you said, it wasn't that long ago, like five years ago, there weren't very many hybrids on these lists. So again, with the increasing frequency or population of hybrids out there, rapidly suddenly meeting our requirements, our threshold requirements for sample size, plus how far they're being driven because of the low operating costs, they went from being this rare, hardly ever seen thing to kind of being scattered all over the list in about a five-year period. EVs, to some extent, and certainly the Y and the 3, could do the same thing. Fascinating. Well, I love a list like this. Like you've got this great sort of this, you know, you said it's kind of the IC cars, the big study of the year, and you've got something that again is, it will evolve and be interesting every year. As those new models show up, it's going to change. And I will, I'll definitely be reaching out in the near future to hear what you've got coming up next. So. No, it'll be really cool. And don't forget one of the other cool things about this, because we do this kind of study, if you go to we also have predicted lifespan for all the used car listings. In other words, you don't have to just go there to see which cars last the longest. So that's a really cool list and you can target which cars you want to buy because of it. But if you're shopping for a Mazda CX-5, and it's a used one, and you go to our listing site, we use the same data and it's a 2018 Mazda CX-5 with 65,000 miles on it. We can tell you the predicted time and miles left on the car. Ooh, that's very handy. I like that tool a lot. I will check it out, encourage people to do the same. Yeah. As a used car shopper, once we got that functionality going, not that long ago, I was like, how cool is this? You're shopping in the used cars. Is there a more valuable piece of information to know before you buy a used car than it's predicted time and miles that are left on it? That's pretty neat. Yeah, that's awesome. That's very cool. Awesome. Well, thanks, Carl. Always appreciate having you on, have fun over your next couple of weeks of travel and hopefully get to drive some cool cars. I'm sure we'll hear about them in the future. Absolutely. And hopefully at one of these points, you and I will be on the same trip and we'll run into each other in person. I'm sure we will. I'm sure we will. All right. Take care, Carl. You too, Colin. Thanks for having me on. Bye. Well, that was really fascinating. If you enjoyed this episode of the Auto Guide show and want to know more about the study and where each car is ranked, or just want to play with some of those other tools that Carl mentioned, please head over to iccars.com and give it a look. Until then, be sure to leave us a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to us. And if you're watching on YouTube, please don't forget to like and subscribe. It really helps the podcast. Thanks a lot. Talk to you soon.