Raised by Survivors | Ep. 688: Matilde Broder - Greek Jewish Survival and Legacy | HMTC

Hello and welcome to Raised by Survivors. I'm your host Bernie Fershpan here at the Holocaust Memorial and Tolerance Center of Nassau County. Today I have a very special guest with a fascinating story. Not too many people know that the Holocaust affected so many countries, over 20 countries, one of which was Greece. And over 50 or 60,000 Jews were exterminated who lived in Greece. They were exterminated in the camps after they were deported. Today I have a very special guest who is the daughter of two Holocaust survivors who are Greek Jews living in Thessaloniki. And I want to welcome Matilda Broder. Thank you so much for joining me and sharing your story today about both your parents and how they survived. But before I continue, I just want to point out that 93% of the Jews in Greece were eradicated. Now both your parents ended up in Auschwitz. They were deported from Greece in 1942 and after liberation they literally walked all the way to Paris where they met. And the story continues and I'll let Matilda tell us the rest of the story. And today you were brought here by a dear friend, Sandra Hoffman, who told me about your story and thought this would be a great idea for you to tell your parents' story so that we can record their incredible legacy of survival. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. You were born actually in Argentina, correct? Correct. I came here when I was 15. When you were 15? In 66? Okay, so I came to the United States in 1963. There was, I think, a large influx of Holocaust survivors in the 60s, right? Other places weren't doing so well and they wanted to come to the growing country, you know. My father always wanted to come here. Where money was lining the streets, right? Yeah, right. But he always wanted to come to the United States but my mother wanted to go to Argentina because she had the only surviving sister who had gone there to Buenos Aires, married with a child in 1936, right before the war they were taking. Right, so in 1933, the National Socialist Party in Germany, the Nazi Party, became the leading party in the parliament, right? And Hitler, of course, was in charge and that's when it became a dictatorship, a fascist country. But in 1936, you said, so three years into it, how much did they know about Hitler at that time? They had no idea what was going on and that's why they were so taken, not prepared what was happening. And they just went to my aunt and an uncle with their son at five years old. They went to Argentina because they spoke Spanish because we are Sephardic, originally from Spain, and they kept the Spanish language, Latino. So they wanted to go to, instead of coming to the United States and they didn't speak English, they went to Argentina where they spoke Spanish. So apparently a lot of Jews went to Argentina because they found it to be a land of opportunity as well. Exactly. Argentina was a thriving economy and a thriving country. They welcomed the Jews into their country at that time. Absolutely. This is before World War II. Even before in the 1800s, they had a lot of immigrants from Russia born. There were a lot of, there were like about over 200,000, no, almost 300,000 Jews when I was there. In Argentina. Now it's only like a hundred. Right. And Argentina today is a big supporter of Israel and the Jewish community. Because of the new president. Right. So you have a Sephardic background, meaning that your family was expelled from Spain in 1492. Correct. And your family ended up in Greece and maybe some in Turkey, but in that general area for 500 years, that's where they lived. And they assimilated to the Greek culture. Very assimilated. By the way, I love Greek food. I love the whole Greek culture. We were just on a cruise recently, we went to Greece and I just, I love the Greek culture. I love the food. I love the music. I love the dance. What do they call that dance that everybody does in weddings? Yeah, they want them. I can hear the music in my head. It's a great culture. So Jews lived there for 500 years. They assimilated to this culture. They were very, my ancestors were, my grandparents were very well-to-do. They had property all over and they cured. My grandfather and my mother's side cured first for the farriers, before they give them to the farriers. So they had land all over, but they lived. So your family was wealthy. Very wealthy. They were very successful Jews there. But things went bad. Things went bad. It was great life, 500 years, but things went bad when Hitler decided to take over most of Europe, right? In 1939, when he invaded Poland and France, and even before that, he took back Austria and Czechoslovakia. But in 1942, the Nazi regime entered Greece. Now, let me ask you, did they enter Greece proper, or did they have collaboration with the Greek government to deport the Jews? I'm not sure exactly how they went in, but they had to have collaboration. They did. They did have to have collaboration, but I don't know exactly whether it was the community, the officials, because a lot of the churches and the Christian organization, the Orthodox, the Greek Orthodox, saved a lot of the Jewish families and Jewish kids. Actually, one of my cousin's mother, who lives here in Greenwich, her mother was taken by nuns in a nun school and made them. So, the Catholic community helped them, but I don't know what officials. Obviously, a small percentage, because 93% of the Jews in Greece were eradicated, right? They were killed. Exactly. And that's a big number. And they were mostly in Thessaloniki, which is Thessaloniki in Spanish. And they were mostly there. That's why they were taken by train for a week to Auschwitz. Thessaloniki. Right. Had the largest Jewish population in Greece. In Greece, yes. There were other small towns, like my mother's town was an hour and a half, two hours away from Thessaloniki. And it was called Drama. And that's where she lived, but she happened to be in Thessaloniki to another property of my grandfather, and she was lucky enough to survive because her siblings who stayed in Drama were taken by boat and sank the boat, and they never made it to the concentration camp. So, my mother was lucky to be able to get... So, in Drama, Greece, your aunts... Two aunts and two uncles. And two uncles. What they did to eradicate the Jews there was to put them on a big boat and then sink the ship. I just wanted to take a minute for people to wrap their heads around this, to talk about the level of cruelty and sadistic behavior by those anti-Semites, not just the Nazi regime, but also those that collaborated. Well, exactly. And I'm sure that it was a ruse, that they lied to the Jews that were going to take you on a boat somewhere, right? But their intention was to kill the Jews on the boat by sinking the ship. And when I looked it up, I tried to trace some of the things that happened. They say that only three people in Drama survived, but then they took them to Treblinka, and it wasn't true because there was no record of them being in a concentration camp. And my mother told me that's what they did. So, I believe my mother. There were so many incidents like this where it wasn't documented how many Jews were killed. So, six million is just an estimation. Exactly. So, we really don't know how many. However, we do know that three quarters of all the Jews in all of Europe were eliminated, and 90% of all the Jewish children were killed. This is the horrific reality of when intolerance is not checked, when hate is not checked, and it leads to violence, and violence in the wrong hands, the hands of a government, can lead to atrocities like this. That's why we have to tell these stories. People have to know these stories. People still say that it didn't happen. The fact is that the Nazis themselves documented it. We have these numbers because they documented these numbers. They were very, you know... Very systematic. We have the numbers. They had the numbers. They had the books, and they were accountants, like the accountant in Auschwitz, right? We're going to look at that. So, this here, this is a document from Auschwitz, right? My father was there. A document of your father's stay in... It's a certificate certifying that he was a prisoner there. Samuel Castro. That was his name. And so, what were the defining moments in your mother's and your father's survival stories that depended on courage, or luck, or help from others? Which one would you say was more of? People always ask my mother, how did you survive? She says she wanted to live. Simple as that was the will to live, which I don't have here. Well, you have courage, you have luck, and you have help from others. But the will to live is a very powerful thing. Because when you have the will to live, you'll find a way to survive. Even if you're half dead, right? There are people who are literally hanging on a thread. And thank God, the following day, they were liberated and somehow saved. But many of them, even after they were liberated, didn't make it out alive. Because they were fed food, and they died from eating. Did you know that? Yes, of course. They couldn't eat. Well, my father was young, and he was taken to work in the factories in Germany, in the car factories, you know, like BMW, and then also in soap factories. So he was strong and young. And they used those people for that reason. My mother was lucky, because she was with her cousin, who was much younger than her. And they were both very pretty. And according to my mother, one of the Gestapos fell in love with her cousin. She was only 18 years old, or maybe less. But my mother said he fell in love, whichever you want to call it. And he kept her to shave people's head in the concentration camp. So then they wouldn't kill her. And so she helped, always took care of my mother and her brother who were there. They were in the barracks, but she was making sure that nothing would happen to them. One time she asked the Gestapo who was keeping her, if he could erase my mother's number from being gassed. Systematically they called different numbers to send them to be gassed. And she knew that was happening. And the Gestapo erased my mother's number. But my mother didn't know. She showed up at the line to be gassed. And when they saw in the list that her number wasn't there, they got so mad that they kicked my mother in the back naked, because they were naked on the road. And they left her in the snow. In the snow. And they were naked. They were naked. The level of cruelty. I was there about two months ago in Auschwitz. In Auschwitz. I can't go. And I was walking the same grounds where these poor prisoners, poor Jews who suffered so greatly, who were in the hands of sadistic human beings who went above and beyond, who claimed that they were just following orders, but they went above and beyond. Let's be honest, right? They were as cruel as cruel can be. And I'm sure that they're burning in hell right now. Because of the level of cruelty that one person can do to another human being is unthinkable. Unthinkable. But somehow they managed to survive. And they were liberated. I think it was around 1945. They were liberated. How many people walked to Paris from Auschwitz? I'm not sure. But there was a whole holding camp for each nationality. They put all the Greeks together because they didn't speak Yiddish. So they couldn't communicate with the Germans or anybody. But they put all the Greeks who spoke French. And my parents met in that holding camp in Paris. They got married. But they ended up in Paris by... How long did it take for them to... About a week. About a week to walk? They were spared to walk. And so there was groups of Jews who just literally just walked and they were liberated? Yeah, but by the Americans. How did they eat? Do you know where they slept? They slept in people's homes and people would give them food. So there were people who were kind? Oh, there were many people who were kind and they were afraid to do anything. Right, right, of course, of course. But that's how they survived on the way there. And the French Jewish community was very, very good to my parents. So they were in a holding camp in Paris, which was for the Greek nation. And so your parents met over there, right? Over there. They didn't know each other. And they got married there. My brother was born there. So how many years did they live in Paris? Two years. My brother, in 1948, they wanted to go to Argentina and they went by boat. But Evita and my aunt was begging Evita Peron to allow my parents to come. Her personally? She, her personally. Because Evita was very good to the poor people and helped a lot of people, created a middle class in Argentina. She did good things. But she also took all the money from the Nazis in exchange for gold and allowed all the Nazis to come into Argentina. So she didn't want Jews to come. And as a matter of fact, Evita, the show Evita shows exactly that. Then she took all, but she wouldn't allow my parents to come in. So my parents went to Paraguay and they smuggled through Paraguay into Argentina. And with the help of the Jewish community, they sponsored them. And you were born in Argentina? In 51. And then in 63, my father decided the economy was bad. And my mother had a store, a fabric store, and she was a seamstress, a very good seamstress. And my father was a salesman. And he lost his job at 48 and he always wanted to come to the United States. So he came in 63 and applied for a residency. And we couldn't come until 66 because it took so long for him. So now I know, you've seen the film, the documentary that I'm the subject of. And so I know what my parents went through as I got older. I learned more about it and I understood the PTSD that they had and how their values shaped who I am and who my brother is, right? So talk a little bit about growing up with your surviving parents. What was it like? Were they overprotective? Did they teach you about gratitude? Was there any pressure to succeed? I mean, these are the things that I grew up with. What did you grow up with? Well, first of all, Argentina was a beautiful place to grow up. Warm people, even though nobody believed me. Well, they would ask me if I have horns when I would tell them I was Jewish. And they asked that in Argentina. In Argentina, yes. And I understand many. They do it here. Of course. Anyway, but in general, the people are wonderful, very warm, great, great opportunities when my parents went. So I was very happy. My father, once the economy went down, then he came. My father was very protective. He would not. He was overprotective. But my mother was very warm and very liberal. She would let me go with all my friends. She was not protective. Did you ever see any evidence of PTSD from what they went through? My mother was nervous. But they had a lot of they made a lot of friends. And they were they would like to entertain and dance the Greek dance. So they moved on. They moved on. But always telling everybody what they went, what they went through, just like my parents, which was good. I didn't want to hear it. Right. I didn't want to be Jewish in Argentina. OK, because I didn't want to hear all this terrible things that happened. But she will show her number to everybody who will come into her store. You were almost, I wouldn't say totally embarrassed, but there was something embarrassing about it. Yeah. You were victims. No, I wanted to be like everybody. You want to be like them. You didn't want to be in a position like that. Exactly. Yeah, that was it. My mother was very nervous. But but they move on. My father didn't work very hard here. They also made a good living here. They they. Well, you moved to the Bronx, right? They picked up how many kids? It was my only me and my brother, my brother. So the two of you and brought you to the to the Bronx. To the Bronx, terrible. And actually, in the film, I say that we moved to Brooklyn from Israel. However, we lived in the Bronx for three months. Do you remember the Bronx? Yeah, you do. Do I remember? I was afraid to go around the corner. 1966, yeah. Was burning. I was I went to Daft High School. I lived around the corner and I was afraid to go around the corner to school. That's how bad it was. So one year later, when my father made a little money, we went to Forest Hills. We moved to Regal Park and I went to Forest Hills High School and Queens College. Today you brought some photographs. So let's let's show some of these things. If you want to just hand over to me a couple of things. This is my mom before the war. She she used to make her own. So this this is your mom right here before the war. OK, used to. And she lived in drama, drama, drama. And she made her own clothes. And the photographer loved her clothes. So she wanted he kept on taking pictures of her. What else do you have? Then I have my father before the war and his sister. This is a great quality photograph here. Your father and his sister. And this is the René. 1933 René Castro. He was Samuel Castro and she's René Castro. That's my middle name. And these are my father's parents. They were taken to Auschwitz and killed right away. Wow. And this is from the year 1900. You have Jacob and Dudun Castro. Ben Meir. In the year 1900. That's when my grandmother was born in the year 1900. That was my father's. They were killed right when they got to Auschwitz. They were killed right away. Right away because they were all. Right. Not everybody was killed right away. Some were sent to work and some. The younger. Depends on which side you went on the right or the left. Well, they used the younger people went to the right to to work. To work. And or to experiment. But how old was he? How old was he at that time? Well, my father was 24, 25. And he must have been maybe 30, you know. I see. And they consider them maybe too old at that time? Or maybe they were older. I really don't know that. How old they were. But the sister, my father's sister, was taken to Auschwitz to this to the female camp. My father was in the male camp and they will meet at night. And one time they caught him and they beat him up. And they killed her the following day. And he never saw her again. Wow. That was what happened. And this is my mother's sister who was taken on a boat. And her brother. One of her brothers. I have. And this is taken. It says over here, 1935. Yeah. 1935. And her brother. They were in drama when they took them on a boat and sank the boat. That picture, I have it in the Heritage Museum. I had representing the Jewish, the Greek Jews. So this is a photograph of your father before he died. And this is a book from drama. So this is a book from drama. This is from the. A prayer book. From the early 19, maybe from 1900, 1910, 1920. This is a prayer book, a Jewish prayer book. But it's written in Hebrew. And they read Hebrew. Oh, yeah. They read Hebrew, of course. They took Hebrew, Ladino, French, and Greek. Now, this is a remembrance book or what? In Yiddish, they call it a Yizkra book. It's a memory. Memory of pictures were taken from the survivors here in New York. Right. Who had photos from their family. Right. And they got together. And they put this book together. Together, exactly. And when was this book printed? It was in the 1960s. In the 1960s? No, in the 80s. Oh, in the 80s. It must have been 89 or maybe 90. It was in. Now, this is, it says over here, Auschwitz. It's also another. It's another document. From Auschwitz. And this was either your father's or your mother's or your father's. He kept these papers. So, after they were liberated, he somehow managed to find these papers or afterwards? Yes. In 1962, we went from Argentina to Salonika because they had to prove that they were alive. So, they went through all the, in order to get compensation from the Nazis, they had to prove they were alive. And they went to their towns and they got all those certificates and some of those photos. Now, let's talk about you and your family. You have children, grandchildren. I have two kids and four grandchildren. Oh, how nice. That's great. Yeah, I'm very lucky. Between me and my wife, we have four kids. We have five grandchildren. Isn't it wonderful? It's wonderful. That they didn't erase all the Greek Jews and somehow. We survived. You survived. And you too. That's right. We are the most resilient bunch, aren't we? Exactly, we are. They tried to kill us. And we survived. We won. Let's eat, right? Isn't that the old saying? Yeah, that's great. This was a wonderful discussion. Thank you. I'm so grateful that you made the time and you were willing to talk about your family, your parents and what they went through. And people should know what people can put other people through when there is a blind hate, right? Sometimes people just hate blindly. They don't even know why, but this is. And now it's happening. It's happening again. So again, we have, again, young people and even older people who are blindly hating based on fallacies, based on disinformation, based on lies. And this is what happened during the Nazi regime. It was all lies. And people believed it. People believed that Jews were not human, that they were either cockroaches or rats. Now, you would say, well, you have to be stupid to believe that. But it's crazy to understand that you have to wrap your head around this, that you can brainwash people to believe anything. Anything. If we allow ourselves to society, let it happen again. We're learning nothing. Right? And we are destined and we are doomed to repeat history, as they say. However, because of podcasts like this and people like yourself who want to tell the story and educate people the truth, I think we are making an impact. And I am a very hopeful person. And we have Israel. We have our own country, our own nation. Thank God for that. I was there in February, right before everything went crazy. Yeah, yeah. And I was there in December. It's always been crazy. It's such a beautiful country. It's always crazy there. You would never know that they're in war at any given moment. It's beautiful. Unless they run to the shelters. Other than that, they're eating falafel at the stand on the corner. So people don't understand. They don't understand that, first of all, all we want is peace. And all we want to do is help others. Who are the first, whenever there's an earthquake, even in South America. Yeah. They were the first to show up to help dig out the victims, right? Exactly. I know. And always the biggest donors to all the biggest foundations, right? Very generous and kind. Totally the opposite of what anti-Semitic tropes are all about. I'm sure are saying, I know. Well, thank you. Well, thank you, Matilda Broder. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I wish you only the best to you and your family. Thank you so much. And the holidays are coming up. Happy New Year to you, too. Thank you for having me. Thank you. I'd like to thank my listening guests as well today for joining us here on HMTV, here at the Holocaust Memorial Intolerance Center. I'm your host, Bernie Fershpan. Until next time. If you enjoyed exploring the information, history, and stories in today's conversation, be sure to check out our other podcasts here on HMTV. Please subscribe, share, and stay connected for more engaging conversations.