Hillary Clinton on Trump's policies, the Ukraine war and the Epstein case | maischberger

So welcome to the show, Secretary Clinton. Great to have you here. It's wonderful to be here and to see you again. Thank you. Thank you. You've been traveling through Germany now for a few days in Munich, of course, the conference and attending now the Cinema for Peace event, and you've been traveling by train as well. So did it went smoothly for you, the Deutsche Bahn? It was incredibly smooth. And I really love traveling by train. I love looking out the window. I love reading. I love sleeping. And it worked because I heard that something went wrong somehow with the kitchen. I didn't even notice. I had a great cappuccino. I had a great croissant. I could not have been happier. Very good. So in Munich, this conference had the title Under Destruction, and Chancellor Merz put it in his words. He said, a rift has opened up between Europe and the United States. How deep is the rift in your opinion? Right now, it is quite deep because I think President Trump and his administration have been baiting and insulting European leaders, European countries, European civilization now for a year. But I also think after a year of disbelief that our close ally would be doing that to us, I think the Europeans, at least as I saw it Munich, are pulling together and recognizing the reality and hopefully, you know, be moving in a unified way. Yeah, so it was a wake up call. But Rubio got standing ovations for his address. Other than JD Vance last year, he was a little bit less confrontational. But the message seemed to be clear. It seemed to be follow our path, stop the climate cult, stop the civilization erosion through mass migration, stop all the balkism. So what is the message? Follow the MAGA path and we'll be on your side. And what if we don't follow? Look, I think that the reaction to Marco Rubio was one of relief. It was pretty much the same message. But it wasn't as insulting and degrading as Vance's message was last year. You're 100% right. There was a lot in it that was no different. That reflects Trump views, that reflects their national security strategy. But it at least made it clear that, okay, we have to do our part to defend our interests against this concerted attack by the Americans. But we want to keep getting along with them wherever we can. And I think that's smart. But we also need to stand up to them, as was done on Greenland, which at least forced a retreat. Let's hope it's permanent. We'll find out. So I think that in my conversations with leaders, it was clear to me that after a period of disbelief, and then maybe an effort to try to conciliate, get along with, be transactional in a positive way, the leaders have determined, as Chancellor Mertz said, there is a rupture. So what are we going to do? We have to take care of our own business the best we can. And we have to stand up to the policies and the attitudes we don't agree with. And then let's see what happens. We'll have midterm elections in the United States in November. We'll have a presidential election. Let's see where we go then. But what would happen if we don't follow the path? I mean, Marco Rubio now today visited Viktor Orban in Budapest to endorse him for the elections in two months. So that's a clear sign that there is some kind of, you know, going into the deepness of our policies here. So what would happen if we don't follow the MAGA path? What do you think? I think, first of all, Europeans need to understand that there has been a lot of right-wing money that's gone into political parties and candidates here in Europe now for several years. A lot of Russian money and influence as well. So there is a connection between interests that want to influence Europe and influence your politics. So if I were just an average Hungarian, my attitude would be, I want to be electing somebody who's for Hungary, not somebody who is a puppet of Donald Trump. And therefore, let's react and show that we are not going to be erased. We're not going to be intimidated. We're not going to be controlled by this American president. I don't know what will happen in the upcoming Hungarian elections. I know the opponent was leading, which is part of the reason why Marco Rubio took that trip to Hungary. So I think this is now up to the Europeans. Don't be intimidated and don't be fooled, both by parties and candidates within your own country whose primary allegiance seems to be to some right-wing agenda that is supported by Donald Trump, who is not your leader. We want to have a good relationship, and I hope we will again, and I hope we can mend the rupture. But the Europeans have to show they're not going to be either taken in or pushed around. Can you give us an idea of where you think this administration will go further? I mean, there was the threat of annexation of Greenland. Right. And what else do we have to expect? I mean, it's clear that there is a difficult partnership. Are we already rivals? Is the United States already side by side by Russia, for example? What do you think? I think that one of the biggest threats that we all face right now is the efforts by Trump and Putin to force an insecure, unjust end to the war in Iraq that favors Putin. We're also seeing and getting reporting about corruption between Putin, Trump, their allies, their oligarchs, their families, to try to profit off the misery and death of the Ukrainian people. So let's stay focused on what they are doing in and to Ukraine. And as I said in Munich, if you want a just, lasting settlement in Ukraine, you have to better equip Ukraine. You have to give them long-range missiles. You have to give them really adequate functioning air defense systems. That's the only thing that Putin will understand. He will be forced to make a better deal for Ukraine if we are supporting Ukraine. And I think Donald Trump's withdrawal of American support for Ukraine is not only disgraceful and a total abdication of Western values, human values, but it's really counterproductive. Because if he thinks that he can dominate the Western hemisphere and literally give Europe to Putin, he's mistaken. And the Europeans have to be the first to demonstrate that. What should their response be? Chancellor Merz, for example, he was talking about an own nuclear umbrella for the Europeans. Do you think that would be a wise option? Well, right now, the nuclear umbrella is largely provided by the United States. The combined European capacity in nuclear weapons is minimal compared to what would be needed to protect all of Europe. Let's hope we never ever test that. But Donald Trump also allowed what was called the New START treaty that kept a lid on American and Russian nuclear weapons. And that lid is off now. And Trump is talking about wanting to test nuclear weapons again, something we haven't done in decades. So where this whole issue of the threat of nuclear weapons and potentially nuclear war is heading is really serious. And so I think the Europeans have to be as involved as possible, both internally talking among yourselves about what you can do to try to strengthen your early warning signals, your air defense system, all of that, but also literally pushing your way into the conversation with Trump. Because the decisions that Trump makes to start testing nuclear weapons, for heaven's sakes, that has global implications. And he claims he wants to try to do a treaty with China and Russia. I'm all for that. I would get every nuclear weapons country in the same room and try to end the madness before it takes off. So the Europeans need to be sure they're exercising as much influence as they can. Yeah. The NATO Secretary General, Mark Rutte, seems to have a way to tackle Donald Trump in a way that he gets to, you know, somewhere. And he says that he praises him for pressuring European NATO members to spend more on defense. The 2% reached by all NATO countries now at the end of 2025 would never, ever, ever have happened without Trump. So when President Trump is doing good stuff, I will praise him. And I don't mind him publishing text messages. And if anyone thinks here, again, that the European Union or Europe as a whole can defend itself without the US, keep on dreaming. You can't. We can't. We need each other. So do you think Rutte is right? Could Trump actually do something that is beneficial for the West? I would hope so. I would only add this very large footnote to what the Secretary General Rutte said. I think Vladimir Putin had something to do with increasing defense spending in Europe. I think that it was a rude wake-up call that, you know, after decades of peace, we have an aggressor trying to take over a sovereign nation. But I think that what he is saying is right. We shouldn't have to be separating Europe and the United States. We should be defending each other and ourselves. We should be valuing NATO, the most important military alliance in human history, and making it stronger. So I'm hoping that the Europeans will continue to press forward on this. I don't know whether Donald Trump will have an epiphany. I think he usually only responds to strength. He was pushed back from Greenland after making those outrageous comments in Davos and before. So the Europeans, where you can get along with him for the right reasons, get along with him. Where you have to stand up to him and push him back, please do that. And then I hope that the Democrats will win the Congress in 2026 and we can begin to start holding his power to account and we can begin to put together the building blocks of our relationship again. This is the year where the U.S. is celebrating the 250th anniversary. What do you think the U.S. will be after this term of Donald Trump? Will it still be the stable democracy we know? I don't know yet because I think unless we win the Congress and begin holding him to account, he will continue to ignore the rule of law, weaken our institutions, name everything that he can for himself. I mean, the cult of personality is very strong with him. I don't know what would happen if he remains in power or someone who parrots his kind of views. We're going to do everything we can to prevent that. But I think the 250th anniversary of our Declaration of Independence will help focus a lot of Americans' minds on what's really important about our country. It is not, as J.D. Vance tries to say, a place. Of course, it's a country. We're very proud of our country. It is an idea. It is a set of values. It is a creed about we the people, in order to form a more perfect union, all men are created equal. Of course, it took us years to include black men and women, but we have been moving toward that more perfect union. So if people are paying attention during this 250th anniversary, I think they will start asking themselves, well, this is the America I was taught about. This is the America that has the values I believe in, and that's not Donald Trump's America. He has a very different idea about who we are and what we should be. So I'm basically an optimist. To quote my long-time late friend Madeleine Albright, the first woman Secretary of State, I'm an optimist who worries a lot. I will do everything I can to make sure that the real America that I think we all cherish is the America that will be there when Trump is gone. Elections have different results. In 2016, you won the popular vote, but he took away the election. And in 2024, it was Kamala Harris who lost against Trump. So what do you think about your personal responsibility for letting him into office? What did you think now about this time 10 years ago? I really regret deeply that what happened in my election happened. There's no doubt that there were lots of different reasons why I won the popular vote by nearly three million votes, but lost the Electoral College. Joe Biden came back and won both the Electoral College and the popular vote. And as you rightly say, then Trump came back. So it shows the volatility of American politics and that we all have to learn the lessons from my campaign, Biden's campaign, Harris's campaign, because we don't know what Donald Trump has planned. We don't know, is he going to legally leave office or try to manipulate the system? Maybe on behalf of himself, maybe on behalf of a chosen successor. So we have to learn the political lessons about how to take him on and to win. And people are very focused on that. How are the Democrats going to do that in 2028 at the election? Who is going to lead? Are you thinking about running again? No, no, I'm not. But I think we'll have some very good candidates. Some of them were at Munich. Gavin Newsom. Yeah, Newsom was there. Other people whose names have been mentioned were there. But I think in our system, it's not a parliamentary system. So we really don't have a leader of the opposition party who would become prime minister or chancellor. We have a kind of big, messy contest. And so people are going to run. There's probably going to be 10 to 15 people running. But we have a good bench. We have good candidates. And I really believe that what we've over this past year is the Republicans losing contests, governor, congressional contests, other contests. And we've also seen Trump's favorability rating plummet. He's in the 30s. He is no longer popular except his hardcore base will stay with him. So I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic about the midterm elections and then about the upcoming presidential. I would love to take just a few seconds to see a debate from 2016 to show maybe how this man changed. You were both asked in this debate to say something positive about each other. This is what Donald Trump said about you. I will say this about Hillary. She doesn't quit. She doesn't give up. I respect that. I tell it like it is. She's a fighter. I disagree with much of what she's fighting for. I do disagree with her judgment in many cases. But she does fight hard and she doesn't quit and she doesn't give up. And I consider that to be a very good trait. I agree with that. How much has this man changed in the last 10 years? Is that the same man today that he was then? I don't think so. What is I don't think so. I think become radical or what is it? I think he's become really overwhelmed by power. In his first term, there were people around him that he chose who had experience, who were more traditional Republicans who reigned him in. He mostly, not always, but mostly listened to them. And when he lost in 2020, I think it broke something in him. I think he could not believe that he had been turned out, which is why he instigated the attack on our Capitol, why he to this day denies the facts of that election. And I don't know whether it was some psychic wound that he cannot heal, or whether he physically and mentally has become so obsessed that he can't really live in the truth based on evidence. I don't know the answer. We speculate about it a lot because his language, his physical behavior, there's things going on with him that are very different than they were 10 years ago. When you're coming home, you have to testify to the congressional investigation into Jeffrey Epstein into the files, million files. They had put pressure on both Democrat and Republican politicians. Who do you think it will hurt more in the end? What comes out of these files? Well, I think the way that this administration has tried to hide these files, to defy the law that was passed that Trump himself signed, to release everything, the sloppy way they've done it, I think they have something to hide. And I think that they are worried about President Trump. And if you saw the Attorney General's testimony, it was very clear the way she behaved, the way she insulted members of Congress for asking perfectly legitimate questions, tried to divert attention from Trump, would not look at the survivors. They have something to hide. I don't know what it is. We have nothing to hide. We have said, we'll testify in public. In fact, we would prefer that. We want transparency. You know, sunlight is the best disinfectant. Get it all out there. They're the ones who are trying to divert attention and trying to convince people that there's nothing there on him. So we don't know. If all of the files come out as they should under the law, maybe we can get those questions answered. Can I ask you a personal question about that? Because I read that you never met Epstein. Was that a deliberate choice you made? And if so, why? No. Somebody said I once shook his hand in a receiving line, but I have no memory of that. I never met him. My husband met him only because he provided a plane to go visit charitable projects that Bill was running on HIV-AIDS and other things that were really important. That offer of a plane ended years before he was ever convicted of something. We have very little knowledge. We have offered, and in fact, we put it in writing under oath to tell them everything we knew, even though we think we're a diversion away from Trump. And then they said, no, no, no, you can't do what everybody else has done, which is to testify in writing. You have to show up. OK, fine. Then let's make it public. They don't want to do that. I don't know what exactly is the real story. But if they won't let me testify in public, I will testify in private. And they're not going to like what I have to say, because I think this is a deliberate effort to protect Trump. From what? I could not tell you. So we started with your traveling to Germany. Many Germans now think about not going to the States for the soccer World Cup as a sign of protest. What would you say, would you encourage people to go to the U.S. to visit this World Cup? I would like to encourage everyone to go to the U.S., but I also understand why some people would be worried about that and some of the threats that have been coming from the administration, even about attending the World Cup. You know, there have been stories coming out of the immigration enforcement groups that people better be careful about coming to the World Cup. I find it so sad that that would be a message coming to our friends and neighbors and visitors who want to see a great World Cup. So I would encourage you to come. I understand why some people might be worried about it. Let's see where it comes from. Safe travels home. Thank you. Thank you for coming on this show. And well, all the best to you. Thank you, Secretary Clinton, for this interview.