Behind the Scenes: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World (Kramer 1963) with Spencer Tracy and Milton Berle

Jonathan, what one thing in this picture stands out as the most hilarious part? Well, uh, I must confess, of course, uh, I think you realize this, that, uh, none of us, as of now, have seen the picture in its entirety, and we won't see it until tomorrow when you see it and we all see it together. But, uh, I think that's the safest time. That threw me, Stanley. It did? My lines. Sorry. But, um, I think, uh, that's a hard question, strangely may seem. Uh, I think, uh, from what I could feel and, uh, going through the five and a half months on the picture, every second seemed, uh, terribly funny to me. That may sound a little trite and wild and false, but really it did. I had a ball making the picture. It was my first picture, and I can only say I hope it isn't my last. I'm glad you had a good time, Jonathan, because I thought it was a pretty grim experience. That's the penalty you pay, Mr. Kramer, for being a brilliant producer. And, uh, I realize you think we were all hard to handle. I guess we'd better go on with the next question because I don't want to answer that. I've gotten the feeling you have kind of a missionary zeal about this thing. Obviously, you're trying to make money, and I hope you do, but it kind of feels like there was something worthwhile you want to tell. Well, when you invest $9,400,000 in a film, you kind of get a missionary zeal to get it back. Uh, we won't even talk in terms of profits. We're talking about getting it back at the moment. I hope it goes beyond that. We try to do something special, something that was a total experience for an audience in comedy. Uh, whether we've succeeded remains to be seen. I was Mr. Kramer's financial advisor. Shut up already, will you? Please. What did you advise him? I gave him the greatest advice. I told him to keep going. How did you select all of these funny, funny men? I didn't select them at all. No, they didn't find me. They were all involved in various occupations, which are personal to them, I suppose. But these parts almost were written for these people. They gravitated toward them in that regard. We came together on it, talked about it, and this is the way it grew. We had to do it at a time when everybody was free of commitment. That's why we were in Palm Springs and 115 in the shade for most of the picture, because they're busy in the fall, these gentlemen, you know. Jonathan, what effect do you think the mad, mad, mad, mad world will have on the world in general? Well, um, I think it'll have several effects, I hope. Um, there's certainly a message in it. The message being, uh, the greed of the world, what people will do to get a buck, what extremes they will go to. At least I found that in my script. Um, perhaps it's been changed. I think first and foremost, with all these people in this picture, and as you know, there are literally hundreds of them, each one outstanding in his trade, that it's going to be a very funny picture for people of all ages. And I think the world, not just Cincinnati or Manitoba or Saskatoon or Madagascar, Mickey over here looking at me is, he thinks I'm going to run him on the next ticket. I hope you do. You probably have some very strong viewpoints on the admission of China to the UN too. I think we all do, don't we? It's a big country, we can't mark it off. I'm teasing you, you know, this is what we went on for the whole picture. We philosophized and did lots of things. But to wrap it up, my little capsule, I would just like to say that I think the world is ready for a laugh. We've had a lot of dark clouds hanging over us, and I hope that through this three hour and 15 minute picture that we can bring some sunshine. That may sound a little like Edgar Guest, but I mean it very sincerely. I think that this picture will do it. We've had our messages, there is a message in this picture, but the big message is laughter and people are ready to kind of sit back and relax with their popcorn. This is a picture then for both young and old? I hope so. And perhaps a few animals that have strayed along, you know, the outside of the theater that kind of, I think they'll even let them in if they behave themselves and sit correctly. A lot of animals, as you know, just tend to lounge and tend to crawl over seats. But if a dog or a cat or a lion, a lion of course is a definite symbol in one of the other companies, sits in his seat correctly and dresses. I think there's nothing more off-color than to have a naked animal. Mickey, about your part in the movie, what was the most exciting part about that? There were many aspects to the picture that were exciting, naturally. I play the part of Dingy Bell and my partner who is Buddy Hackett, who is now abroad, who unfortunately isn't with us at this time, plays Benji Benjamin and we're two writers on the way to Las Vegas. And to see this tremendous project come to fruition, working with such great pros as Sid Caesar and of course Milton Berle and Johnny, his first picture, and he's absolutely, I understand he's absolutely magnificent in the picture as well as everybody else. I can best describe the picture by saying that it's an all-out playground. It's a public playground. This picture can be, it just runs the gamut of everything you'd like to find in a playground. It has the swings, it has the bars, it has the slides. Excuse me, the children in the playground. I thought I told you to wait for me in the box. No, but the fact is, Mr. Kramer, I want to just sum this up and then I'll finish. I didn't mean to be facetious there. I sensed a little for a moment there, but I got over it. Five and a half months, I got over it. Anyway, Mr. Kramer's direction, I think, was one that was very astute in his planning to be able to direct and to point the different people that he had to work with in this picture is a great accolade in itself to Mr. Kramer. However, the fact is even, for instance, I can remember a very serious scene that was to have been done amidst all of this comedic atmosphere. A very serious scene, which yours truly happened to be in, and he came to me and to show you how deft he is in his direction, he came and he said to me, I want you to have a parallel theme going because I had to have tears in my eyes amidst all this, a parallel theme. He said, for instance, before the camera starts rolling, you start saying to yourself, I mean, just to tear up Mick isn't going to do it. And he showed me this. He said, I want you to have a parallel theme in your mind going like before I say action, say my doggie is dead. You understand? My doggie is dead. We've all had dogs. My dog is dead. So he said, quiet, please. Ivan Boatman said, quiet. Everybody was quiet and waiting because it was a very serious scene and they were very courteous to have been quiet. And finally, Stanley said, roll them. The cameras began to grind. And then he said, parallel theme. And he just threw that in again. I started thinking my doggie is dead. And he said, action. Now, before my first line, I said to myself, of course, my doggie is dead. And he also gave me another trick. He said, if that doesn't work, that parallel thing, you pull a kind of direction. That scene is out. Johnny, now these little men that you see so often, do you really see them? I think not only do I see them, but a lot of other people do. And I've tried to do just that is to make people see my little people so that I wouldn't be so alone. Being used to TV production techniques, was it different for you to get used to the movie making way of hurry up and wait? Well, the word discipline is always frightening. I was a little troublemaker in school and I apologize to all my teachers. I will probably until the day I die. But I knew long before I came out here that I was going to be a member of a big team and that there was a lot of money involved and a great producer and many great actors and actresses and that we could have fun, not only in the picture, but on the outside, on set. But when it came time to roll, it was time to stop fooling around. And I fooled around. I'd be the first to say that I was guilty of perhaps getting a little carried away. I'm still a little carried away. And perhaps in the end, they'll carry me away. But I am on cloud 37. I passed nine a long, long time ago. And I'm just way, way up in there. And I can't wait to read photo play. And this time when I go to the barbershop, you know, no, but I can take discipline. And I hope that Stanley Kramer, when you interview him, will tell you that I took it remarkably well for being undisciplined for so many years. I know you've been burdened by all these questions, Mr. Burrell, but if you'll endure one more, few men in the world are both comic and comedian. What are you in this, Mr. Burrell? Well, I'm not a comic in the picture. I would not say I'm even a comedian in the picture. It turns out that I may be a comedian in the picture. I haven't seen the picture either, but it's more of a straight part for me. And it's played legitimately due to Mr. Kramer's fantastic direction. It is a straight part, which I hear turns out quite funny. And which is even a great feeling for me after being, we'd say, comic and comedian. And of course, you know, I've said this before. There isn't anything I haven't said after somebody else said it. But it was the great Ed Wynn who made the comment about the difference between a comic and a comedian. I don't know if you ladies and gentlemen on the panel know. He said a comic is a guy who says funny things, and a comedian is a guy who says things funny. Now, I am neither one in this picture. Possibly, I don't know. I'll ask Mr. Kramer. Maybe it turns out that I am a comedian, but actually it's a straight part and it has to be played legitimately. And that's, regardless of Mickey kidding before about the dog dying and everything, this was the uppermost in my mind and also throughout the picture, Mr. Kramer's mind of playing it as legitimate as it can be played. And one of the great compliments I can give Mr. Kramer, you didn't ask me this, is the direction that Mr. Kramer went in, or Stanley went in, in directing a picture from a believable, honest standpoint. We have all these very good comedians, and I will call them comedians. They can be comics, but they are mostly comedians. They do things funny, besides saying things funny, saying funny things. The legitimacy of the direction of this picture, Stanley directed this picture, I think the way he would direct one of his other great pictures on the beach with judgment, with an authority of believability and sincerity and honesty. And that I think is very important because if it's not believable and it's not honest, I think the audiences, we don't play down to them anymore. We play up to them because they are very, very bright and they're very intelligent, the viewers and the people who buy the tickets. They know what is honest. They know what is not honest. And the more honest that we play this, the more dramatically it was directed, the funnier I think it became. I have not seen it. Milton, may I say one thing? You said comedians, et cetera, and this and that. I think that it's very essential and most important, seriously, in order to be able to do anything comedic or have any form of comedy to do. That first of all, basically, I think we're all dramatic actors first. And I think that only good dramatic actors can at times know the tempo and the timing of a good comedic situation. And therefore, Mr. Kramer handled it this way. That was his whole crux of handling the picture so that, as Milton said, everything was believable. The minute that you do anything hokey or out of course, taste is the most important thing in comedy or in life for that matter. But everything in the picture is in good taste. You have a very good friend, Phil Silvers, who's also with the film, and unfortunately not here at the moment. Phil has described this picture at various times when asked as being the kind of picture in which Milton Berle plays the romantic love interest. Well, you can see what kind of a kooky, honest, kooky picture is if I play the love interest in Dorothy Provine as my wife and Ethel Merman, who doesn't even need a boom or a microphone. My ears are still ringing. My head is still hurting. And she is the threat, for example, over my character in the picture because she's my mother-in-law. But I won't delve into myself. I will talk about the block things in the picture and the characterizations. I believe each one in the picture, I won't go down the whole line because we know who they are, stay completely to their character through all the efforts of themselves. But I know they will agree with me, but mostly through the efforts of Stanley. Right. Well, we may all race to oblivion together. No, we may not. We may not. Mr. Berle, with so many great stars in this picture, how is the matter of billing handled? Well, let me just say this. I don't think there was too much of a fight over the billing because all of us really very anxious to do the picture. Fortunately, it was built alphabetically with the exception of Spencer Tracy, who was billed first and then the rest of Bill Alford. Of course, if Steve Allen was in the picture, I'd have been cooked. And it's built, it's built alphabetically. So there is no beef about that. Jonathan Winters, what are one or two questions you think would be asked about this picture that haven't been asked so far? I'd say one of the big things is, does the picture hold up for three hours and 15 minutes? I think that's a, that's a big question. And from what I understand, I can't answer it because I haven't seen the picture, but from a handful of people that I've talked to that have, it certainly does. And that people can't wait to see more. Strange as it may seem, you'd say for three hours and 15 minutes, they'd like to see five. I'm sitting here looking at these five heads, one, two, three, four, five. Now, how about the chicks in the play? Well, how about them? How do you mean? Chicks? Yes, I know. They did. But I mean, how do you mean, how about? Tell us who they are. Oh, I know who they are. Yes. That's Charlie Eason, Ethel Merman, Edie Adams, Dorothy Provine. Who else was there? Madeleine Rue. Yes, she was gorgeous, wasn't she? She served lunch. But you know these people as well as I do. I loved them all. I think they were quite gorgeous. The first thing I hadn't liked them, dreadful, wasn't it? I remember Ethel Merman, I'll tell you one thing, it was quite astonishing. I think the temperature was 143 and humidity quite high too. We were in a place called Yucca Valley, which is something to do with a man named Yucca, I believe, who lives there. And we had to, Milton and I, I don't think we're giving any secrets away, Milton and I had to get a key which he had put in her trousers pocket or something. And to get it back from her, we had to lift her upside down, because you probably know Mr. Stanley Kramer is somewhat of an eccentric. And he likes not only to have one print for himself, but one for each of his children and grandchildren and so on. By the time we got to about 45, poor Ethel was in a ghastly state, but she was frightfully good. We had a day when we were in the desert, speaking about sound, we had problems with airplanes, aircraft going over. But one of the funny scene to me was here was this $9 million production, and this sea of people and cameras and equipment, and suddenly a little cricket that took off in one of the desert bushes. I don't know how a cricket sounds, I can't do one yet. But at any rate, it gave out its little song to our expense. And they finally threw a grenade in the bush. They couldn't catch the cricket, they chopped the bush down. He was a fighting cricket. And we finally just threw a grenade in and... Mr. Caesar, I understand that the scenes you do with E.D. Adams are rather explosive. Was this damaging to you at all? Well, I would say whatever service I had in the service during the war, I remember Mr. Kramer saying, this is just going to be just an inch shot, it'll be nothing at all, you just hold her and just put this asbestos around your arm and you'll be fine. And then World War II was like firecracker. I've never seen so much explosive in my life. Did you have to reshoot a scene like that? Many times, yes. Terry Thomas, with this array of formidable talent, were you frightened at all? No, it was exhausting, actually. Not frightening, frightening in what sense? Frightened by, how am I going to react to these strange things? No, because you know, I'm used to English comedians, you know, who are pretty wild. I've brought up in the atmosphere all my life and I look forward to it, it was absolutely marvelous. Wilder than any of the boys who worked in the movie with you? Any wilder? I've never met any wilder. No, you're kidding. You couldn't have any wilder than this, or better. You know, it's got to be a bit wild to be a good artist. Milton, is this the picture for you? Your best performance? Well, not having seen the picture, which I repeat, as Burl usually does, not having seen the picture, I felt very comfortable in doing the part as to my best performance to date in motion pictures. Well, actually, between you and me and your millions of viewers and listeners, I actually never made it very, very big as yet in motion pictures, to be honest and truthful. Did very well on television, except from stage and nightclubs. But I'm hoping that this should be one of my best performances. Thanks to Mr. Cramp. Dick Sean, Cinerama has brought us sleigh rides and roller coaster rides. What is Cinerama bringing us in Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World? Well, I think it's bringing in not only what you see, but you have a story going besides. I think of the original Cinerama that ran a couple of years in New York for nothing but roller coasters and bobsleds. Now we're going to give the American public that, plus a story and some very attractive people. So this should run at least five years. If they also come out for two years to see nothing but these rides, I'm sure with a plot and a story, all these funny people, and it should be enhanced that much more. Were there a lot of wild things going on? Yes, but that's in every town. Not just show people. Yes, it's very wild. That's all we can say. We don't want to give away the plot, because it's very deep involved meanings to this picture, which nobody's figured out yet. But we're all very close to it. Jonathan, were there any difficult parts in this picture? Yes, I had to be truthful with you and say there were times when it was difficult for me. And those times were when I was off, off the set and away from the cameras. At home, although I was memorizing and working on my script, I kind of forgot Lenny Pike. And it was Stanley who would remind me. And like all of us, we all sort of direct toward this great man and this great human being, which he is. He's not just a director and a producer. He's a great human being. And he was frighteningly patient. I use that word because I have a high school background. I can't think of a better word. He was patient and that's universal. And he would pull us off individually when we had our problems. And I had my share and say, Johnny, I'm sorry, you're just not Lenny Pike. And after maybe 40, 50 takes, we'd get Lenny Pike back. They weren't all 40 or 50. Did you like Lenny Pike? Yes, I like Lenny Pike from the minute I read about it. Lenny Pike is a truck driver. He's a psychotic. He's a lot of things. He's a poor soul. And he's the one clown in the picture, actor, what have you, character, who is trying desperately to be honest. And we're all thieves. But Lenny's trying to be honest. And he's not getting much help. And he turns out to be a thief right along with the rest. But I had a ball making the character. And it's now I'm having a problem forgetting that I'm Lenny Pike. We've talked about lines, roles, etc. I want to get technical for a moment. Now, when we see this in Cinerama, we're going to be seeing... I should say we're not going to be seeing some things that have been criticized in the past. Would you tell us about that? Well, there has been, and I think it's right that the film has dominated the conversation. And I hope that that's justified. But there is within this a great new revolutionary technique. You're going to see Cinerama, same size, the same curved screen, without the lines and without the jiggle for the first time. In other words, this is really something which Cinerama and Technicolor have developed. And I think it's a tremendous sensation for an audience. Well, after even in the great picture, how the West was won, they were trying to take the lines out and a picture that I enjoyed thoroughly. But however, the lines were there. And the lines are no longer there with this process, you say? That's right. That's going to be magnificent. Mr. Rooney, can I ask you a question? Most of these gentlemen we associate with comedy, although they are two dramatic actors, as you said, but you are associated with some tremendous dramatic performances as well as comedy. When you work in a movie like this with guys like Sid Caesar, Jonathan Winters, Milton Berle, Dick Shawn, and so many, does all of this levity lighten the load? Without a doubt, because everyone, as I said before, everyone carries that stamp of pro. And everyone, it was a team. It was a tremendous team effort, I think, as all pictures should be. Sometimes they aren't, but it was a team effort right down the line. Everybody, you know, you'd think that a lot of people would like to get hammy, and one would try and take advantage of this and that, and so on and so forth. Not with pros. Pros don't do that. And they helped each other. They were condescending to turn and to play and to help each other in the motivations of different scenes, dialogue-wise, timing, etc. And it does lighten the load, naturally, when you play with people who are cognizant of the overall picture. What I had in mind, I was thinking about comedy as opposed to... You mean, is it more fun doing comedy than drama? I find, I'm sure that everybody here finds that under the tent of entertainment, which is comedy and drama, that you're equally at home if you are a professional. And, of course, it's a lot of fun to do both as long as they're good screenplays, this being a particularly great... Milton, would you tell us how nostalgic an experience it is working with all of you? You mean working with great stars such as Buster Keaton and Edward Everett Houghton and the late Zazu Pitts? I, for one, I think they'll all agree with me. I felt great working with these people. Of course, that wasn't too new for me because, as a child, I had appeared with Buster Keaton and different people like that. But it was a great kick because it was said before, and Burl repeats it, a pro is a pro. And to see a veteran such as Buster Keaton work and Edward Everett Houghton work, it made us really even believe more in the entertainment world and show business. Dick, do you have any funny things that happened to you behind the scenes while you were shooting the picture? No, actually, I was more... I was so enthralled just watching the action between the picture. The picture is funny. But what happened between was so attractive for someone having been in pictures as long as I have, which is three months. This is my... I've been... I've made at least three pictures, Jonathan. You've seen all of them. Yes. This being your first, you could listen. I am. I know what things like Rolla Lilly... I know what all those things mean. So having a working knowledge of the movie industry, I sort of sat back and watched these people get all the laughs. And then I waited till I got on film. And then I was funniest. Some takes. But I was... What did you ask me? I forgot. Would you mind telling me, did you... Were you allowed to take liberties with the script? I mean, when you had a little more time? When the occasion called for it, we would call a conference with Mr. Kramer, with everybody else concerned. And if it seemed best, we would shoot it sometimes both ways. And as I said, there was one day which stood out in my memory. The day in Palm Springs where it was well over 100 degrees. And we were trying to get one master shot. Just one master shot, which was a very complicated shot because it had nothing to do with anybody else's line. Nobody had a cue. So you had to say, are you going to get ooh, ooh, or ooh? Or ooh, ooh, or ooh, or... And it was that complicated. And then during this entire day of shooting and shooting, finally, at the end of the day, Mr. Kramer said, don't print anything. Which to me was, I said, I was flabbergasted. Because this, I said, not anything? Nothing at all? Just print a few guitar picks or something. But he said, no, that was it. And that was on a Saturday night. Monday morning, we came back. We shot the same scene which had taken the entire day, the entire Saturday. We'd shot the same scene approximately a little over two hours. And then we went ahead. I presume all Sunday you were rehearsing ooh, ooh, or ooh, ooh? I presume. I'd like to ask Mr. Caesar, what part did you play, Sid? I played the part of a dentist. And I was supposed to be the levelhead of the entire bunch, rationalizing everything. But then I get caught up, as you'll see in the picture, which I haven't seen, by the way. And again, it gets into a tremendous amount of frustration and to trying to get to this one place where we know this one thing is. And it's just, as again, what Jonathan said. And I must say that, to my own experience, I've never seen, I mean, there's a fair amount of talent here and a fair amount of talent all in array and with all entourages and with all this. And Mr. Kramer, I think, just put it like this. One day, he said, let's all go home alone. Mr. Kramer, about this mad, mad, mad, mad world, do you think this is bound to herald a new era for movies, a return to comedy, as opposed to all these psychological pictures and such? Well, I don't think that, I take a very dim view about what any single motion picture does. Let's just say that I think there's an excitement about this film. I think it has quality. How much quality? As I say, the jury is out on us yet. But I believe that in creating the excitement, we create the platform that here is a film which is strictly in the American idiom for an international audience. For so long, we've tried to return to something basic, to find a key. I think that this is Max Zenit and Chaplin and Harold Lloyd and the Keystone Cops done modern style as an all-out attempt in the stunts and the chases and the modern sophistication also, because we've done it modern day to make a film. Now, if there's excitement in that, it may herald many things. But, you know, that's always been our trouble. We herald one thing and then everybody does five. I mean, you have to have the same type. It doesn't work. I think each thing is a thing unto itself.