Kevin Smith: The Real Story Behind DOGMA’s Re-Release

Hello and welcome to What Culture with myself, Andrew Pollard. I hope you're good. I hope you're well. I hope your week is going as well as possible. My week is going fantastically. As you can see, I'm joined by a very, very special guest today. The one, the only, the man who helped popularize the number 37 and introduced us to his viewers universe and beyond, Kevin Smith. Kevin, how are you? It's so good. How's the sound? I keep moving the mic around, but I feel- Yeah, all good. Kids, how are you? Such a pleasure to be here. Yeah, absolute pleasure to get you in that one. And by the way, if you're looking for some discount Bullwinkle things, this is the discount Bullwinkle. Aside from these Buddy Christ posters for the Dogma re-release and whatnot, clearly I have far too much Bullwinkle- I like that. Bears behind me. So folks, write to KevinSmith at Bullwinkle.com and I'll start selling you stuff cheap. We have no money over here. The economy's falling apart. So I got to start selling everything I get. Always chilling. I like it. Always working on the hustle. I mean, there is so much we can talk about with your career, your movies, the small cast stuff, the live Q and A's, the TV work, bringing back Masters of the Universe. Thank you very much, sir. Comics, books, a bunch of those are sat next to me. But today specifically, we're mostly talking about Dogma, which is back in UK and Ireland cinemas from Friday, November 7th to mark the 25th anniversary of its release. A phenomenal movie about two fallen angels who were, I guess, essentially trying to exploit a loophole to get themselves back into heaven for those who may not have seen the movie. Now, obviously there was rights issues with Dogma for the longest of time where it became really hard to track down unless you've got that original like DVD back in the day, which I was lucky enough. But how excited are you to bring this now to not just to a new audience, but to the big screen 25 years later? I mean, obviously there'll be old fans like myself who will go and check it out, but just to have those new kids who this is like, oh, this is this film I've seen and what I've heard about for ages. Now I can watch it in my theater. You know, I know we're celebrating the 25th on the surface, but it is technically the 26th. Just like the Catholic Church, we stretch our truth a little bit. It has been so lovely here stateside to bring it out. I did a 20 city tour and every night I got to sit there and see some of my favorite people I've ever worked with that they're absolute youngest, for heaven's sakes. Matt Damon looks like Matt Damon's daughter in this movie. He's so young. That's how long ago we made it. So going out there with the Fleck every night, I would do an informal straw poll where I'd be like, how many people have seen dog before? Put your hands together. And it sounded like almost everybody. How many people have never seen dogma in a theater? Put your hands together. And then, you know, like half of it. And I'd say, how many people have never seen dogma before tonight? And there would always be like 5% of the audience applauding. And I'd be like, why would you overpay to see a movie? Because I was there with it that you haven't seen yet. And so it brought in a small percentage of new folks and seeing the returning people for whom, I mean, I watched this movie with my grandmother back when she was alive. This was her favorite flick, or I watched this movie with the guy that I've been married to now for 20 years. You know, that means that my work as a filmmaker isn't nearly as important as their work as an audience member or as a fan of the movie. They carry it in their hearts so much so that 25 years after the fact, when I'm standing there with the movie going, hey, come see it. They'll shell out. They'll overpay to see a movie that they could watch on YouTube for free. So that has everything to do with not so much me and my abilities as a storyteller, but more where that movie occurred to people in the journey of their lives. And the longer I'm in this game, the more currency that particular viewer has. You got to remember, like in the beginning, people were jumping on board. Nobody knew what was going on. Will he be good? Will he be a great filmmaker? No, but he did make a lot of films. By the time we get to this point in my career, 31 years in, almost every year is like some anniversary, right? Like this year, we're saying is the 25th anniversary of Dogma. Technically, it's the 30th anniversary of Mallrats. And because of that, like you get to bring these movies back up and you get to see the audience that has grown with you. We had two Mallrats screenings at my movie theater. I got a movie theater in New Jersey, Small Castle Cinemas. So last weekend, we did a Mallrats 30th anniversary screening with me and Jay doing a start-stop screening where you start the movie, and then after the first scene, you pause, get up. Both of us tell stories about that one scene. Then we sit down, unpause, watch the next scene, then pause, get up. Then we take a 90-minute romp and turn into a grueling five-hour endurance trial and charge six and nine bucks. So looking out into the audience, it's a sea of faces that look like mine, like white in the beards, white in the hair, wrinkles, crow's feet. We're all aging and stuff. But then it's a descent into fresh young faces, teenagers, like what the audience used to look like when I began my journey. And you realize why they're there. One will get up and ask a question. You're like, why would you come see this old man movie? Because my parents used to make me watch this when I was a kid. And you're like, what disreputable parent, reprobate of a parent? And that parent will stand up and be right there with them. So in the beginning, the journey was all about like, oh man, I want to tell these stories for me. I hope the audience would go along with it, but it was more about how I felt. The longer you're in the job, it's way more about how the audience feels. The movie captures how you felt in a moment in time. But the audience then dictates how you get to feel about it for the rest of your life. My audiences make me feel wonderful about Dogma so much so that it's beautiful that it's come back and people get to go see it in theater. There'll be a hell of a steel book at the end of the year and stuff. But for me, this movie never died. Like all the movies are active in my life because the characters pop up in other flicks or, you know, like there's an issue of my quick stops comic that comes out next week, which is a, we call it Requiem and it's a Metatron re-meets Jay and Silent Bob for the first time in like 25 years. Matt Damon popped up as Loki in Reboot. So for me, these movies never end. You know, like I've said many times, if you're good at your job, the movie begins for the audience long before they get in the theater. And if you're a magician at your job, you don't have to let the movie ever end. You could just keep that experience going. So in my world, which is easy to manage because it's not everybody. I don't have like Chris Nolan, ardent fans. I have Kevin Smith ardent fans, but to be able to like, keep the story going for those cats, Dogma coming back to the theaters is not only, Oh, I get to watch Dogma again. It's part of the Dogma narrative. Now it's like, Oh my God, he took it to Cannes twice. And then I went to see him years later. He had white in his beard and he was talking about it. And, and you know, suddenly that extends the life of the movie and, and the longevity of the movie, of course, but also the legend of the movie. And, and sometimes that's something that the filmmaker can't do anything about. You could help foster it by being available to the audience and stuff, but the audience is going to decide if stuff lasts. And my audience decided a long time ago that they were never going to let Dogma go. So now with the larger audience kind of re-embracing, Oh yeah, I remember that movie. That's just, you know, whipped cream on top of a ridiculously large Sunday full of ice creams that I love that are vegan with peanut butter poured all over it. A great way to sum that up. Well, you kind of, you touched upon it, obviously Matt Damon, but the cast itself is like, it's stacked. I mean, Linda Fiorentina, just absolutely killing it. Affleck, Damon, Chris Brock, Salma Hayek, Alanis Morissette, Muse and yourself of course, my boy Jason Lee. But there's two in particular I'd like to highlight Alan Rickman and, and, and of course George Carlin. Now George Carlin, one of the greatest comics comedians of all time. Alan Rickman, one of Britain's greatest thespians. Firstly with George Carlin, I know obviously yourself, you're a massive fan, but how was it for you getting to work with him that first time? And also, I believe you got to introduce him to your dad, which must've been very cool. And also I believe Alan Rickman and Jason Muse became the most unlikely of best pals. They did. For me, having Carlin in the movie, having both of those dudes, Carlin and Rickman, lent me untold credibility that I still eat out on today. Like we're having a conversation about it and stuff. The two absolute icons of their field who have since left us, but because, you know, I, I convinced them to come play with me once or twice forever. Now I'm associated with, with absolute legendary icons who also gave me their best on camera. George, I was a massive fan of since childhood. He, my father gave him to me like a gift, gave me a class clown when I was nine years old, way too young for that. And he was just like, don't ever let your mother hear you listening to this. And I never gave this to you and stuff. So it was like, you know, sometimes in a movie or TV show, you see a father, like share a beer with a son and be like, you're a man now. I never had that. But my father gave me like a George Carlin album was the closest thing to that. I had him going like, I could trust you with this. And George was hysterical, but he's also brilliant. He was smart. You know, he used a lot of colorful language words, but still absolutely brilliant prescient. His material still holds today. And in some ways is even more relevant today than it was when he first said it, but he loved to act. Nevermind like being a comedian, man, he kind of backed into that. Like, you know, that was not his aim. He wanted to be Danny Kay in movies because he would go to movies with his brother and his mom and his mother loved Danny Kay. So a young George Carlin was like, that's what I'm going to be the song and dance band in movies and whatnot. But it didn't work out for him that way. And he kind of backed into being a comedic legend. So whenever we made a flick, even if it was a Kevin Smith movie and we were like, Hey, you want to come play? He like came running. Cause he loved to act, man. Sorry, garbage truck going, but love to act. So he popped up in my movies, you know, multiple times. And one of the first times dog went, I got to introduce George to my dad. My dad was visiting set and George was there. And I was like, you know, uh, George, this is my father. The reason that like, I'm a George Carlin fan. He gave me the album. George was like, Oh yeah, you're the bad parent that passed it on and stuff. So absolutely beautiful moment that, you know, dogma, a movie about spirituality, uh, afforded, you know, it, if you trace it back, thank God I was born a Catholic. Otherwise I never get to introduce my father to George Carlin. Everything's connected. And with Rickman, I get this movie theater in, in Atlantic islands, New Jersey, smog castle cinemas, where we do stuff all the time in that theater back when I didn't own it. When I was a kid, just going to it as the Atlantic highlands twin cinema is when I went to see diehard. And I went into that theater to see Bruce Willis, but I came out going who's the other guy. Oh my God. Hans Gruber is amazing. And I was instantly an Alan Rickman fan. Now, if you were an Alan Rickman fan, naturally the progression takes you to Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, the next big role studio role he had after diehard, but I tracked everything he did, man. We were in the video store age. So I would go to the cool video store, big choice or choice video and find movies from overseas. Like he was in this movie closet land with Madeline Stowe, of course, um, truly madly, deeply, um, the January man, he took like a bit part just because he liked the script and stuff. So I was an ardent fan of the artist, man. Um, not just like the big mainstream hits and stuff. So it was never my idea to put him in the movie, but John Gordon, who was our exec at Miramax those days called me up one day and he was like, um, you'll never guess who we had here for general meeting. I said, who he goes, Alan Rickman. I said, Hans Gruber was in the Miramax building. Did he blow it up? And he goes, no, man, we were meeting with them trying to convince him to be in this merchant ivory movie. And I was like, what'd he say? He goes, all he wanted to talk about was whoever directed chasing Amy. I was like, I during chasing, he's like, yeah, man, we should send him a script for dogma. So we sent him a script for dogma fastest. Yes. I ever got in the business generally is always from Jason Muse. I don't finish the sentence. And he's like, I'm in, but we sent Alan the script two hours after he received it, the FedEx, he called them was like, I'm in and started to be helpful right away, man. It originally got us our first God, which was Emma Thompson. And then Emma Thompson like had to drop out and stuff. So Alan didn't just bring himself. He was like, Oh, I got a friend who'd love to do this as well. Um, he was, you know, you, you would imagine like, this was a guy, of course we have a thought of him in our we all know he's an actor, but when you think of Alan, most people of a certain age probably think of either Hans Gruber or snake dude was a soft, absolute soft puppy in real life. One of the greatest actors ever lived, but just such a sweetheart. And weirdest thing I ever saw in a movie set still holds to this day was we're in the third act of dogma in front of the church and whatnot, all the characters are there. So every famous person in the world who's in that movie, is there on front of the church. And I was going to get a snack after I set up a shot and I look at the front steps of the church. As I walked by, I see weirdest thing I've ever seen. Jason Mews and Alan Rickman engaged in deep conversation. I remember thinking, what the if these two possibly have to say to one another. So I see Alan later on, I decided a lot to him. And I was like, Hey man, if Jason Mews is bothering you, let me know. And I'll make sure. And he goes, he, Jason could never bother me. He goes, Jason Mews is the best that America can be. And I was like, stop it. And he goes, Jason Mews is an American icon. So he loved Mews. He thought he was so fascinating and original and adorable and stuff like that. And he gave us, I don't think Alan ever gave a mid as the kids used to say performance. So like every movie where he probably got paid lots of money, he gave us a performance of a lifetime, even though he got paid scale in our movie. So when I was touring the movie around the U S earlier this year in April and may, um, I spoke to Jay on the phone about midway through the tour. He's like, how's it going? Cause normally he goes with me, but it was just me by myself for this. So he's like, how's it going? I was like, Oh my God, they still love you, dude. I was like, you know, at the end of the movie, during the curtain call, uh, credits, like you get the second loudest applause. And he's like second, I said, Alan, dude, Alan gets the loudest applause. And Jason goes, wait till I ******* die. Um, which I think Alan would have absolutely loved. Um, I know we're very, uh, short for time. So just a very last quick kind of double-headed cheeky question. Where are we at with dogma too? Uh, and also hell have no fury, uh, like a woman's gun for Sega. Um, what about more rats too? All right. It's two man is like, oddly enough, it's going to be easier getting dog, a dogma sequel made than a mall rat sequel. Universal has just no interest in it. So all I do is play the waiting game and where it's like periodically I resubmit periodically, we find a department where it's like, Oh, maybe there'll be sympathetic. Periodically. We go back into peacock and pitch it first as a movie, a TV movie, then as a series, whatever it's it's been an uphill battle, um, to say the least, cause we've been trying to do it for well over 10 years now and trying to do it for so long that we lost Shannon and like, so it's, I, I, I can't imagine not walking in there with Shannon makes it any easier at this point, you know? So I don't know the mall rats to will ever happen. I'm starting to lose hope. And, but the good news is I can always make it a comic book, publish it as a comic book and stuff, but life is long turns happen all the time. I always, you know, I'm like, all right, if it ain't today, perhaps it's tomorrow and stuff. Meantime, I've learned not to sit around and wait. I move forward on other things. So in March, we go make our next Jane Silent Bob movie store wars. Um, but I've been writing a dog with follow up and taking my time. It's interesting because the kid that wrote dogma believed in everything you see here, like everything on the screen that was not like Christian mythology. That was his faith. Um, the guy who's writing the sequel is not that person doesn't have the same feelings. So the first time was the guy who believed in all that writing about somebody who doesn't. And the second time around oddly is a guy writing about somebody who believes in all this, but he doesn't. So it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I would hesitate to call it a sequel because it's not like Rufus Bartleby Jane's on their back. You know, it's not like everybody returns and we do the same thing again, but there's a place that the table set for anybody who was in the first dogma. Um, you know, the, the ones you'll see the most, I guarantee you are me and Jay, because we're the cheapest element to bring back to the movie. You know, um, if you wanted to use Ben and Matt for as long as we had Ben and Matt on dogma, it would cost me a lot of money at this point. Like, you know, those are dudes that can go over there and make 10, 15, $20 million working for Netflix. So for the same amount of time. So for me, like on dogma, everybody was young and upcoming and stuff like that. Their agents used to hate us back in the day, Patrick Whitesell, who was Ben and Matt's agent, like hated us because Ben and Matt would like do our movies, even though we weren't paying, even though we were paying like scale and stuff. So if I were to go back and be like, I need Ben and Matt for two months, like that is so incredibly cost prohibitive. I don't make those types of movies. That being said, everybody was in the first one gets to come back if they want to. And Bartleby and Loki where they come in is like one of my favorite things in the movie is beautiful. And I get a little emotional even thinking about it right now. Brilliant. Well, hopefully we see that some point somewhere down the line. Oh, Star Wars. But in the meantime, Dogma is back in UK and Ireland cinemas, November the 7th, Friday, November the 7th to mark the 25th anniversary, cheekily 26 years later. And I can't wait to check that out on the big screen again. Kev, it has been an absolute blast, man. I've been a fan for a long time. So it's always good to sit down and chew the fat for yourself. Any quick final words to share with your fans? And it has to be quick. You know, honestly, kids going to see Dogma in a theater is a singular experience at this stage in the game with the state of the world as it is. And it's a beautiful throwback because like the issues that the characters are all dealing with in that movie seem quaint compared to the issues we deal with in the real world today. But what I love about the movie is if you go see it, you'll see what I saw when I took it on tour here in the States a couple of months ago. The movie is a child's prayer. This was what a young Kevin Smith believed church could be like. He went to church his whole life, was dragged by his parents, was an altar boy for 12 years. And he felt that everybody in the church wasn't celebrating their faith, as we say in the movie, they were mourning it. So Dogma is that young, spiritually filled Christian Catholics attempt at presenting what he thinks would be the best version of the Catholic mass, like fun story with anal jokes in it to keep you interested. So do with that as you will, as you watch it, just know that that was a early 20s. I mean, at late teens, early 20s, Kevin Smith ideal of how religion could be. Brilliant. A fantastic way to end it again, November 7th, go and check it out. Kevin, it's been an absolute pleasure. This has been What Culture? I've been Andrew Pollard. This has been Kevin Smith and we will catch you soon.