'My kid almost DIED' | Patrick Christys, Martin Daubney, Ben Leo open up about fatherhood - GB Dads

And one of the things I think that is unique for men is that there is something of every child that wants their dad to be a hero, that wants their dad to be extraordinary, extraordinary. I still feel guilty today, especially when I'm in America now working and I think, well I missed Jude's birth, I'm now missing him playing tennis or missing him taking him to football, whatever. I was there for Zach's birth our second month, that was eventful. Everyone's told that when your child emerges it's going to be sweetness and light and hops and stalks. Mine wasn't, it was a nightmare, my kid almost died. And I can remember feeling this kind of sense of guilt about a bit of the way I was feeling, which is that I always had this overwhelming joy that I've got this amazing, healthy, happy little boy and my wife's healthy and our lives are being enriched, at the same time as slightly being in mourning for the loss of the relationship that Emily and I had on our own. I remember being very conflicted about that. There was a cupboard marked pornography and I thought, you're on your own in this room and you can hear the people next door waiting for your sample you put through a hatch. They were talking about EastEnders and I forget, this is the least... So Pat Butcher didn't do it for you? Welcome to GB Dads with four dads in the studio here at GB News. You might remember a few of us from your telly box. I'm Martin Dornley, father of two, boy 17 and a girl who is 12. Patrick, Chris, did you hear with us today? Yes, hello, thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be the least good-looking dad on this set, but thank you. I think I've just been brought in for a bit of light relief, but yes, I have got an 11-month-old son, George. So yes, that's all going well. I've still got the rose-tinted glasses on. It's fantastic. Can't talk yet, so he's yet to mug me off. Good stuff. Ben Leo, of course, we're delighted to have you here from DC. Of course, you're a long way away from your couple of kids. That must present you with certain issues and concerns. But anyway, Ben. Yes, hello, Ben Leo. Two children, six and three. One of them is about to be seven, actually, in a few months. Yeah, best thing ever. Love being a dad. It's tough being in America, but we make it work. Good stuff. And finally, we have James Ray today. James, some people who watch the show will be familiar with you. You do daily reflections for us. Also, you're a men's campaigner and an author. Tell us about yourself and the importance of male role models. Yeah, well, thanks for having me. My name's James. I've got two birth sons. Samson is 21, Arthur's 16, and an adopted son who's called Jean. He lives in Brussels. His dad died, sadly, so he asked me to be his dad when he was 14. But my main thing is I take men away in the wilderness. So I take hundreds of guys at a time, thousands of guys a year on what we call mind, body, soul adventures. But a lot of it is around fatherhood. Essentially, it's the father wound, the idea that there's a nice phrase which says, it was tragic actually, that each of us men carry an arrow in the heart, and that arrow has been shot by our father. Wow. How do we deal with that? Ben, we won't talk about that. How do we deal with that ourselves? But then also, Mark Twain famously said, my dad messed me up. He used the F word. But then his dad effed him up too. There's something around that as well. Like, hang on, how am I not just doing exactly the same to my kids as to what happened to me? And so often we go away with men, not exclusively to talk about fatherhood, but that comes up because it's such a core issue. We'll go away for four days, and the reason we take men away is because life's so distracting. Even this conversation now, we're going to be in a hurry because there's a time, there's a clock ticking. But these are the sort of things that we don't want to hurry, we don't want to rush. So we need time. So one of the things I do is we go into the wild, we let nature kind of do its wild thing, which exposes us and uncovers us a bit. And in that kind of environment, in that space, we can have the conversations we need to. Everyone's probably thinking it. I'm going to ask it. Do you get naked and take drugs? Would you prefer if we did? Well, I'll just ask it. Well, getting naked is really not part of my thinking around any of it. But some guys, I suppose, will take their clothes off at some point to get changed, I imagine. I don't see that bit of it. Martin, James has given a very wholesome explanation of healing the wounds of childhood. It's funny you say this, because I'm actually looking at doing some of this stuff at the moment, because for me, sobriety is a big thing. And, you know, you see on Instagram, don't you? A lot of people that go around and do things like, you know, all the kind of cold water swimming stuff and the retreats and all of that. So you might have a willing customer here, I think. It would be good to talk to you about that. Well, I think the real need is that guys effectively can't find these spaces. And so we struggle to have that conversation in the pub, because again, often it's time, often the environment. But imagine calling a maid, like, can we have a long, deep chat? It's just so unusual. And the risk is, is it weird? Are we all going to get naked? Or is it going to be odd? And also for some men, it's like, what do I want to show any weakness? What if they think I'm not a real man? And so for me, one of the great things about the wilderness, about outdoors, is that it's just a long, wide, open space where anything goes. You can just say or do what you want. It's kind of the wind blowing every word away. Well, I think a lot of blokes enjoy that anyway, don't they? They love going into the woods and getting away. I've been saying for the past couple of months, I'd love nothing more than to go and hide in a cabin in the woods. Yeah. We call it an extreme character challenge because the physical side is important, massively important for men. But the reality is that the physical side is only a conduit. Your body is like a conduit of who you are. The body holds us. And so to exercise the body and move the body is really important. But ultimately, it's the emotions and the psychology behind it that is outside in the wild, men connecting. All right, let's talk about male role models. Good place to start. Some people have them. Some people don't. We see a lot of social problems when we don't have good men in people's lives. Gang violence, the sort of things we talk about often on GB News is often precipitated by an absence of good men, an absence of positive male role models. Shall we start with who our male role models are? I'll go first. Pretty obvious. It's my dad. 47 years down the pit. Coal miner. Always through and through. Could barely read and write. Always went to work. Always provided. Gave that work ethic. And I just try and pass it on to my kids now. The number one thing you can do with your kids, make them work hard, make them respect people. And you've got to stop them being woke. That's me, Patrick. Yeah, I mean, look, I am going to echo that my dad has been an absolutely amazing role model. I mean, I think that he learned a lot from his parents who were born in a very different generation, in a very different country, with a very different culture. And I think he learned a lot about maybe what he didn't want to do as a dad. And he made absolutely every single effort to kind of correct potentially some of the issues that maybe he felt faced him when he was growing up. Also, my granddad on my mum's side was an Irish immigrant. Very, very tough life, you know, was behind a plough at the age of nine, came over to his country at 15, sold his bike for a few bob and was just working every single hour that God sends. And that was a really, really, really interesting thing for me to see, both him and my dad. Just the work ethic that they had. Just on another kind of slightly different angle about male role models, I have always, when I was younger, was drawn to kind of mavericks like the Shame Worms of the world or the Paul Gascoigne's of the world. People who actually, when you look at it now, had some very obvious character flaws, whether that was to do with the sense of jeopardy that you get with them. But fundamentally, people who saw their profession very differently to everybody else, which is ultimately what gave them that genius quality. So I was always drawn to those people where there was always that element of risk, oh, what's he going to do next? But in amongst that were just these incredible moments, you know? So I think that's something worth picking up on because I think that's very male. And even on this show, I think we've got to be so careful. We're not going to try and present one version of dad, like this is dad. And even as we start talking about our male role models, they'll be different. And one of the things I think that is unique for men is that there is something of every child that wants their dad to be a hero. They want their dad to be extraordinary, extraordinary. It's very unusual you hear that about a mum. Most people want their mums actually to be very stable, very loving, very nurturing, very safe. But most kids will hear like, my dad, my dad, my dad's this. And there's that sense by which it's something like, could he be the one? Is he the Paul Gascoigne of his generation? Is he the hero? And in that hero's journey, there's always that sense of, as you say, the jeopardy, but also the risk is catastrophe. For most human men, the problem is they are likely to meet that end. Kids then get old enough to realise their superhero dad maybe isn't as perfect. I guess it applies to both parents. You get to an age where it's like, oh, you weren't maybe the person I imagined growing up. That was my experience with my dad. So my dad was an excellent dad. I've got three brothers, so four boys. He was excellent until I was about early teens, basically couldn't speak back. As soon as I started answering back, he lost any ability to influence us. And so what I started to do is find other male role models. So I've been with my wife, we met at Sunday school, so we've been together since we were 12. So her dad's like a second dad to me. And he's an amazing dad in some areas, but he's not brilliant in everything. So I found another guy who's a brilliant finance guy, and I used to learn about money from him. And another guy who's really good at being excellent, really, really excellent. So I've got these three or four men in my mind who I would say, they're my father in one, they're wrapped up. All right, Ben. Yes. Role models. Little bit of an outlier. I haven't seen my dad, my father since I was 10 when my mum kicked him out. I did have a lodger, I was just telling you off there, I had a lodger called Mike who lived with us. He moved in actually, when my dad was there. And he'd been in the house for maybe 20 years, just living in a spare room, working and so on. And when my dad left, he became my surrogate father. But then he unfortunately died of cancer. So I carried his coffin when I was 16 at his funeral. So I didn't really have a male role model growing up. I guess the closest thing maybe was my two half siblings, they're half Greek. Little bit of an age gap, they're a bit older than me. Do you know what you missed? Have you reflected on what is it you might not have had that others had? I guess being very stereotypical, maybe all the sort of manly stuff, going into the woods, DIY. Anybody will tell you I'm absolutely rubbish at DIY and any hands-on stuff. I'm trying to get better. Order the new toolkit. It's hard to say because I don't know. I don't know what I've missed because I haven't experienced it. You don't know dark without light. So I don't know. But not having a father growing up or a male role model has just made... I always wanted kids to kind of fill that gap. And how have you been then as a dad now with kids? Because that's the challenge, isn't it? Each of us is like, well, I don't know what I don't know, but how am I going to offer something to my kids? Yeah, that's the point. I just wanted to have children. I knew from a young age, I wanted to have children. I wanted to be the best dad. I wanted to fill that gap inside me and I guess maybe heal that inner child of mine who was upset not having a father around by giving that love on. And I guess in any... I wouldn't say I'm a victim of trauma, but in any situation as a kid, if you go through something, you can either choose to be a victim and grow up and say, well, I didn't have a male role model around. I'm going to behave like this or do this and use that as an excuse. Or as I describe it, use it as rocket fuel and say, well, actually, I'm going to try and heal the wounds of the past and make amends by giving a loving home and fatherhood to my kids. Well, let's talk about that, shall we, next? Let's start with you, Patrick, because you're the youngest dad around here in terms of how old your kids are. I feel like the stuffing knocked out of me, yeah, by life. But the moment... Everyone's told that when your child emerges, it's going to be sweetness and light and harps and stalks. Mine wasn't. It was a nightmare. My kid almost died. Very, very close to death. He was a grey, lifeless ragdoll, full C-section and blood everywhere. It was like something out of a full metal jacket. Nobody ever prepares you for that stuff. I went to all the lessons. I played along with it. I was like this hands-on dad of all the groups, pretending to be interested a lot of the time. And then when the birth actually came, it was a disaster. He's beautiful. He's 17. He made it. But the birth can be very tricky. How was your birth? Well, obviously, I sailed through it. I didn't feel a thing. Even if it goes well or badly, it's still a kind of amazing experience in the sense that it's just awe-inspiring, the whole thing. So many different emotions. I mean, with Emily, because it was our first, you're at the mercy of a lot of medical advice that you're getting. And I think you are made to feel like, well, if I go... I'm getting this medical advice, or my wife's getting this medical advice, and that kind of goes against our gut. But then if we decide not to do it, and the worst thing happens, then how the heck are we going to live with ourselves? So I think that's quite a common thing when it's your first one. But Emily was induced because they kept saying, oh, George is looking a bit small. He came out completely normal size, which is ridiculous. But anyway, so that increased the level of pain that she felt. I found that really difficult because you're helpless. Seeing Emily in pain. Yeah. And I actually managed to somehow make it even worse because we'd bought this thing called a TENS machine. We'd done this practice about how to use it, and she was at her absolute worst because they'd offered her a C-section, but before she'd really started to feel anything. So she was like, well, no. And then they made it sound like, well, you can just get one whenever you want. And so she was like, well, I don't need it yet. That's all right. And then at the time that she was, sorry, not a C-section, an epidural, she said. So the time that she wanted an epidural, there were only two anaesthetists in the whole hospital. They were both in surgery. And so we were like, right, okay, she's in absolute agony. They can't attach the baby monitors because she can't sit still enough for it, which is completely fair enough. I mean, good grief. So I was like, don't worry. I've got the TENS machine. That's all there. So I shove it to her back and I crank it up and she's like, it was the only thing that could have made her pain worse at that particular moment. And there was a look that she gave me and her mum was in the room at this time as well. And I'll never forget that look that both my wife and my mother-in-law gave me that was like, how have you managed to make this situation even worse? So yeah, that wasn't great. But look, I mean, we were very lucky and we've been very lucky from start to finish that basically aside from the fact that she was in total agony for a while, the actual birth itself went really well. And George was fit and healthy. How is he now, George? He's 11 months old tomorrow. So he's doing well, doing very well, bless him. I saw your first farm day. Was it farmed? It was good because I brought his animal book with him. So you've got these books where they make the animal noises and you could see that he realised that actually these things are real animals now. So that was that was really cute. And that was that was lovely. But yeah, I think I just I'm just I don't know. I'm just trying not to screw him up. You know, that's the thing. Ben, the birth, the magical moment. I missed the first one. I missed it. Jude was six weeks early and my old newspaper sent me off to basically England played Bulgaria in the football or something. And the Bulgarian ultras were pulling Nazi salutes in the stands. So it was a big old big story. So my paper sent me to Bulgaria to find the ultras. So I sat down with the head ultra in Sofia, Bulgaria, had literally the pint just landed on my table. And Rhianne called me and said, I think my water's just broken. And he was six weeks early. My employers tried to get me back in time. I had to go by Poland. I was then stuck on a runway in Warsaw about to take off. Maybe would have made it, maybe wouldn't. But the captain then came on the intercom and said, I'm sorry, we're just about to start an air traffic controller strike. So we're stuck on the runway in Warsaw for about six hours. And I missed it. How did that make you feel? I still feel guilty today, especially when I'm in America now working. I think, well, I missed Jude's birth. I'm now missing him playing tennis or missing him taking him to football or whatever. I was there for Zach's birth, our second one. That was eventful. He popped out in the living room carpet. Very easy though, no dramas. But yeah, Jude had to stay in hospital for two weeks because he was so early in special care. Nothing wrong with him just to make sure he'd take milk and so on. But yeah, I have a forever lasting guilt, I think, about missing his birth. But I think that's a wonderful thing, though, because you can't control this environment at all. I remember when my lad was born, I remember just whispering in his ear, because I thought he was going to die. I just remember whispering, stay alive. You have these weird conversations where it's like, take me now. I'll give my life for my boys. Just like that. And you would. Yeah, no doubt, yeah. But you made it. But I remember I was in this intensive care ward for two weeks, as you mentioned, and I saw kids like dying. Tiny. Tiny kids in these like ultraviolet blankets. And there were triplets. And I went home and came back and then there were two. And I was getting close with the dads. I was being a bit naughty. I was smuggling a couple of cans. The mothers were upstairs in intensive care, the dads were all downstairs, and these kids were dying. What I'm trying to say, without lowering the tone, is that nothing prepares you for the reality of what happens. Did you have to leave your child in special care and you'd go home at night with your wife? That's right. She was upstairs. I was going home feeling completely useless and pointless, because I couldn't do anything. She had an open wound. The kid was on a ventilator for two weeks, and you can't do anything. Everyone told me this was going to be wonderful. Well, that's the thing that nobody talks about with special care as well. You and the mother having to go home at night. You were prepared for nine months to imagine having your child, taking them home, everything's great. But especially for the boy's mum having to go home each night without Jude, in this case, leaving him in the... I used to call him the boy in the corner because his little hospital bed was in the corner. So he had to come home every night. It was harder on Rhiann than me, but every night she'd have to leave that hospital without her child for two weeks. We'd call up in the night, three in the morning, or she would anyway, and say, is he okay? Everything all right? So nobody prepares you for that. That's the thing I think that a lot of lads don't talk about. Even those, I think we were all quite hands-on. We went to all the groups and whatnot. I bet you did, right? Just muck in and try and be a modern dad. My dad was down the pit. He was doing overtime. That's what our parents did. There was no hands-on dads when I was a kid. My dad was always at work. It was always a mum. And so it's changed to be a dad a lot. It's a different age, isn't it? Especially with the... I mean, I'll never forget that, Ben, that next time any flight of mine is delayed, I'll probably be going nowhere more important than you were going to go home to have a flight delayed on the tarmac. But I suppose that it's so hard these days because you can get back from wherever. You can make the effort. You can. And so to not either be there or to not make the effort is the big shock. But for hundreds of years, people would have found that in a letter. By the way, you're a father again for the third time or whatever it is. And so I think we do have a lot of expectation on it. And whilst I think you're absolutely right, whilst obviously the empathy is always and understanding is always with the mother in terms of the trauma of what's just happened. There is this sort of lonely place for dads where you're helpless for a while. You're being told what to do. And effectively, you can't add any value. I can hear a lot of mums out there going, you're making it about the men. How dare you make it about the men? No, we're not. Of course, we all understand. This is a show called GB Dads. This is a safe space. That's a good point because I remember I wrote about the birth experience. I used to work for the Daily Mail and the CERN before GB News existed. And I went on Good Morning Britain with Philip Schofield before we knew about Philip Schofield. Anyway, I digress. We had a debate about birth and trauma to fathers. They had millions of hits. How dare you? How dare you feel traumatised? I was like, well, I've never seen my wife like she's had a belly blown open before. It's quite grim. And I'm allowed to say it's quite grim. And my son nearly died before my eyes and had the beep. He had all of that. So you're allowed to be traumatised. But then when you say you are, it's like, well, how dare you? Whenever we take one perspective on something like this, there are other perspectives and they are also valid. It doesn't matter. It doesn't mean we're saying this is the number one perspective. Everyone should be worrying about the poor dad who has to drive home on his own. No one's saying that. But I think the point that we can have, we are experiencing things. We do have our own perspective on what's happening. But men generally don't talk about it. Also, if you were to call a mate, I imagine most men don't know what to say, don't know how to help, probably just said, all right, mate, well, you know, all the best. Let's go for a pint. Let's have a beer. And actually, we're unable just to say that sounds terrible. You know, can I be there? I've actually done a tiny bit of chaplaincy work in those moments. And you realise, again, that's where the power of faith really, to have somebody wandering corridors saying, I can pray while you're driving home, I'll pray. I think there's something where we just lose all sense of control. And that's when, for me, God becomes the big help, the ultimate, if you like, father. I think there's something there that is still very deep in our society and deep in our psyche, much as people want to claim it isn't. These are moments where I think God really shines. Absolutely. I agree. I agree with that. When there was the moments where they couldn't put a heart monitor on the baby, they weren't sure if he's going to have to have that emergency C-section or she was in agony, all of that. You know, that was I feel very lucky that I've got a faith in God. And, you know, that was, you know, my ability to just be able to pray and to hand that over. Yeah. Was actually very, very freeing. I do think as well that one of the things to touch on what we're talking about there about how, you know, something that blokes don't talk about or society doesn't talk about is when the baby is born. I'm very lucky, you know, Emily and I have got a great relationship, at least I think we do. And it obviously changes your relationship when you have a baby. And, you know, in the overwhelming sense, that is for the better. But especially at the start there, where like Emily was breastfeeding. So, you know, the baby doesn't really need me to live. And, you know, in a way that it needs its mum. And that obviously goes on for a period of time. And I can remember feeling this kind of sense of guilt about a bit of the way I was feeling, which is that I was had this overwhelming joy that I've got this amazing, healthy, happy little boy and my wife's healthy and our lives are being enriched at the same time as slightly being in mourning for the loss of the relationship that Emily and I had on our own. And I remember being very conflicted about that. But I suppose, I don't know, blokes don't really talk about that, do they? Well, when me and Rhianne came home after having Jude, finally, we took him home, we plonked him in the middle of the front room in his car seat. And we both said, Oh, my God, what have we done? And that lasted for about 24 hours. It was almost a grief. As you said, Patrick, it was kind of like, you have to accept your old life is gone. It will never be the same again. Some people I've spoken to say that it takes weeks for them to get over that. For me, it was about a day, but it was a what on earth have I done? You remind me by just saying, Carsey, we once left our eldest in the car, got into the house, did the shopping, got the shopping, carried on, and for quite a period of time, both of us completely forgot. And there was just that moment of, hang on, in the car, sleeping quietly was the baby. David Cameron was doing that when his kid was about 14. Classic. Yeah, it's an incredible moment. And then, by the way, the second birth, my daughter was a dream. Perfect. And it kind of, my missus wants another kid. And we had to find, you mentioned the five year gap between mine. And I just didn't want another kid. After this trauma, I just thought, why would you bother? What's the point of revisiting this terrible, terrible incident? My wife was like, no, I want to do it. So it's not like that. Five years. You know, the first time, without getting into the details, the first time it was like a one dark finish, the pregnancy. It was a what? One dark finish. What the hell's that? First time we decided to have a baby. What does that mean? Straight in the bullseye. Oh, sorry. It's the first time you tried. I'm trying to use a metaphor here. Fertile man. Yeah, that's really what we're saying. Between him and Boris Johnson, there'll be people getting pregnant next door. It was a one dark finish. Second time around, there's so much concern and worry about, I'll be honest, I didn't want a second kid. The same house, the same parents, the same life, same bodies, the same everything. It took a year. And I was like, I never believed in this nonsense about, oh, it's all in the mind. But I tell you what, I think it is. So you wanted the first child, your intent on having the first child. And it was a one dark finish, as you call it. And the second one, you weren't so keen. No, that's right. And the missus really was and I really wasn't. And it took a year of trying. And that perplexed me. I'm a great believer in intent. You go into something with intention and, you know, they're getting too metaphysical and everything is built on energy. So maybe there's something in that. Well, and the power of the mind is huge. I mean, you see this with placebos and healing, don't you? You take a fake tablet placebo and a real one and people get a heal better on the fake and the real. And I think that's the mind, isn't it? Just kicking in. And we went for counselling, couples counselling, because, you know, I'm still with a lover. I want to be with a stable family environment. My parents divorced when I was 10. It was very traumatic. So I'm determined whatever I do to keep the framework. And I just said, I don't, I'm not feeling it. And she said, you know what? Go out and have a bottle of wine and a pizza. Oh, I can do that. I'm very good at that. Yeah. And that night. Amazing. Yeah. And it's just, it made me realise something that I always thought was nonsense or hippie or a bit silly. The mind just took over the bodies. It's quite astonishing. Yeah. And it all went right. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I've had, I've got some friends, they've been struggling to have a child for a long time. And part of the problem was that the whole, every time she was, it was the right time of the month, it was like, right quick now. And he was just starting to feel, he was a big rugged player. It's all thermometers. How? I'm not, I'm tired. Or this just isn't loving. And the damage is that you suddenly start to become this sort of baby factory. Spoon factory. How do we function? And actually keeping that relationship alive is so important. Did you go and get yourself, your swimmers tested in that? Yes, I did. Yes, I did. I went to a place in Brixen and I forget there was this little hole in the wall. It's a true story. You know, I used to write it in a magazine, Loaded. Yes. Well, when you go into this room, there was a cupboard marked pornography. And I thought, and you're on your own in this room. And you can hear the people next door waiting for your sample. You put through a hatch. They were talking about EastEnders and I forget. This is the least. So the least conducive environment ever. So I opened this magazine called Pornography and I brought out a copy of the magazine that I edited. With a photo of me in it. And I was like, Oh my God. At that point it became funny. And again, this I've relaxed, but yeah, everything was normal. But how, how, how, without getting too graphic, you knew what was the content of that magazine because you'd edited it. There were others, there was a selection. But my point being when it went, when the boys went away to be tested, came back normal, I was like, so again, there's nothing physically wrong. And my missus got tested, nothing physically wrong, but mentally it wasn't happening. And I never believed in that stuff until it happened to me. This leads us into the conversation that we were having about you being away a lot, because there's that feel of, we want to be present so often. So there we are at the birth, trying to get there, flying across the world, being present. Then there's gaps where we're not needed. And suddenly the male, there's that sense of like, Oh, I better go back to my everyday job. I better go look after the other kids or whatever. I can fill the gaps. And then this sort of life progressively get into the rhythm. And I think often for men, there's this challenge now of, well, how do I balance work life? How do I balance my time at home? And obviously Ben, you know, you're away a lot. How do you balance it? And what are your thoughts on that? It's tough. The reason I'm in America, you know, it's great. It's great for my career. It's a great opportunity, but it's also for the boys. It's for them. It's to pay for the house they're in. So they have a beautiful home to grow up in and their childhood. But then sometimes if I'm crying myself to sleep in DC, which I do sometimes because I miss them so much. I just think, you know, I'd rather live in a one bed flat or a studio and just be with my kids as opposed to doing all this. So it depends what mood I'm in day to day. Yeah. But it's tough. But then again, I think on the flip side, as you mentioned earlier, decades ago, there were people, there were fathers going to war for 12 months or going off to the tours or whatever. And you wouldn't have FaceTime or webcams or the ability to call them whenever. So yeah, it depends day to day. It's very tough. But do you feel also the pressure of that is on you? Because I think that's something that also men often feel is I have to hold this situation together. Oh, intently. Intently. And again, I don't want to, there'll be mums, women watching this saying, well, don't make yourself the victim. But I just, you know, maybe you guys can agree as fathers, but I have everything on my shoulders. I look after the house. I look after the bills. I've got to be there for the kids. I've got to perform on air. If I say one thing wrong, I'm going to get cancelled. You know, it's a lot. And then I'm away at the same time as well. I'm across the Atlantic. I'm in a different time zone. It puts a strain on everything. I was just thinking as you were saying that, you know, I do feel unbelievably lucky and also kind of a bit of a sense of guilt as well that I think, you know, Emily's got to be a mum to George and she's also got to be a bit of a carer to me at times. And that is, she takes on a huge amount with that. Takes on a huge amount as well as doing a show three hours a day and all of that. But yeah, you know, I'd be an absolute mess without her. I'd probably be dead, to be honest with you. How long have you been together? Gosh, four or five years now. Five years, I suppose. Yeah, but again, she's just like the glue that holds it all together. Genuinely, I'm not just saying that to start off, but she is really the glue that holds it all together, you know, and yeah, it would be. It's amazing. She seems to just know the right answer about things. She seems to be tapped into exactly what the right thing to say or do is really. I don't know where she finds that emotional pit from. I've got a ceiling, you know, like there's a time limit on me before I can just go, I've stopped caring about this now. I've got my own stuff going on. Whereas somehow she always seems to be able to find a little bit more. But that's the maternal instinct. I don't care what anyone says. That is a true thing. Women can deal with, I don't know if it's all about screaming and crying and kids more, but I think men just do have a natural limit on that. All right, gentlemen, I think that might be a good place to leave it because we've barely got started. Barely got started on where we can go in future episodes. Patrick, superb. Ben, superb. Superb there, my friend. I tell you what, that was very, very inspiring for me. We need to get back and do this again. James, Ray, thank you very much to you all. Thanks for tuning in to the first episode of GBN.