The Leadership Decisions That Separate Growth From Failure

Leadership isn't tested when everything is going right. It's revealed when everything starts falling apart. Today's conversation is about the decisions that define great leaders. Welcome back to Keeping It Real On Purpose, where we have honest conversations that challenge patterns, strengthens leadership, and help you make the next move with confidence. I'm your host, Edna White, bestselling author, keynote speaker, and life purpose strategist. You know, leadership isn't about titles, not at all. It's about how you navigate through helping others. Today, we're blessed to have Tina Fasquez, CEO of Emerging Equity and Leadership Strategist, who helps executives and organizations navigate complexity, align their teams, and make better decisions during their most difficult moments. So if you ever led through, oh, excuse me, if you ever have been led through uncertainty, struggled with difficulty, and questioned your own leadership, today's conversation is for you. Welcome to the show, Tina. Thank you, Edna, it's great to be here. All right, so let's get into it. Every leader has a moment when things don't go according to plan. From your experience working with executives, what's the biggest leadership mistake people make when everything starts falling apart? Panicking. Good. Yeah. Tell us what happens. Yeah, so, and you know, things don't fall apart always very quickly. I think that there's an assumption about what it means for things to fall apart. Right. I think sometimes we can have events, so things that have happened currently in our economic and political environment, there have been these major events where things have happened really fast. Right. And there are also events that are smaller and are slow building, and they lead to what feels like a major event, but there are markers the whole way. And when we're missing those markers, that's sometimes where that panic comes in, because it feels like we've been blindsided. Right. And so I think the mistake is to panic, not breathe. Right. And to not take stock of what is, and to separate a little bit the emotional chaos that comes with feeling like you need to fix things right away or fix things right this second. Right. They do need to be fixed, but we also need to take a beat, even if it's not a long beat, but we do have to take a beat to just take stock of what's happening, make sure that we've got the right players and the people involved in the re-strategizing or the pivot or the redirection or the fix. I would say that's one mistake. It's a natural human instinct to panic when things are falling apart, but to lean into that panic can create a little bit of chaos. And I wanna just define what I mean by panic, because if you manage to get to a CEO position or leadership level, your panic is not gonna look like panic in other layers of the organization or with other folks. So it's not gonna look like, oh my God, I'm losing my mind. Panic is gonna look more like, I have to show up strong. I have to show up like I have answers. I have to show an emotional strength. And that's where the contention around vulnerability comes in. Brene Brown talks about the strength of vulnerability. And so I wanna be clear when I say panic, it's not maybe what we think when like houses on fire and we panic and maybe we're not good at emergencies. I'm talking about, we're having an internal panic that we mask with a stowage system. And that's, I think that is where the mistake is because it is hard to help a leader when a leader isn't showing a little bit of what's going on. And that doesn't mean that you don't hold composure. That doesn't mean that you don't stay calm, but it also means that like letting the right people into that inner circle of conversation about like, I'm out of my depth here and I need support. Yeah. Do you think that comes from not asking for support along the way? It can, but what I find it's not so much that leaders aren't asking for support along the way. And again, it depends on the leader. Leadership is very much an expression of your character, of your personality, of the way you like to relate to people and also whatever narratives or stories that we've digested about who we are in the world. So, I have women of color leaders have digested a narrative and had had a life experience where the buck always stops with them because if they don't handle it, it doesn't get done. Right. Right, so their approach to emergency is I'm just gonna handle it. Yeah. Whereas as a leader, there's beauty and strength in that, but there's also chaos and overload in that. Yeah. Right, so that might be an archetype, I would say, that may not ask for help along the way. Right. I think outside of thinking about archetypes of personalities or intersectional identities that might come with those narratives and those ways of expressing their leadership, I think what I find happening mostly with leaders is the bandwidth to have enough large environmental landscaping and scanning what's happening so that we can make those incremental decisions to keep up with change. So, it's not so much that they're not asking for help, it's knowing what to ask at the right time. Yeah. And knowing who to get involved and are you in a position or has your role or the work of your organization allowed you the bandwidth to do forecasting? Because if you're not able to forecast, then you're not able to have built in the capacity for those supports so that you could ask for that help when it's needed. So, I find that that happens a lot. Yeah. Okay. Do you help them to, because I know you're saying that they, working with women of color too, sometimes they don't forecast. You know, and how do you get them to navigate to that? I mean, one, I would say that I would not make that as a monolith statement for women of color in terms of like not forecasting. I think it's very situational and it depends on what's happening. And I actually find that when you come with a background, whether you're a woman of color or you've had different challenges in your life that prepare you to have plan A, plan B and plan C, right? That you're always prepared with extra versions of what you have to do. I think that that is a form of forecasting, but the way that that plays out is different when you have bandwidth and capacity around you to do that versus when you're doing it from what feels like survival mode. Right. That's a good point. That's a really good point. Okay. So, many leaders confuse activity with progress and I hear you talking about all these different things that they have to do. How do you help leaders recognize when they're solving the wrong problem instead of addressing the real issue? Ooh, that's such a good, meaty question. And we could probably talk for hours on how that happens. So, I'm gonna try to break it down. Okay, good. The first thing, and what I will say this too, is I have people and strategists in my life who have to do this for me because the first thing in trying to understand root cause or root dynamics is having an outside perspective. Without an outside perspective, it can be really hard to drill down. And so, already when I'm present with the leader in their organization, they've hit number one. They have the outside presence to look at. Okay. The second thing that I listen out for is, so I do a lot of asking of questions about how they understood the dynamic of whatever the challenge is. Because what I wanna understand is how much is personal narrative driving how they're perceiving the situation versus the facts of the events of what's occurred. Yeah. And once I'm able to separate the two and I can get to the facts, then I can start to understand, okay, with these facts, what support or dynamics were at play? And so, sometimes those dynamics may be personality and interpersonal, but sometimes they might be structural and they might be workflow oriented. So, depending on which one it is, so I'll give you a really good example. We worked with an organization to just quickly case study it for you. This is an organization that grew from 30 to 90 in 60 days in terms of employees, 30 employees to 90 employees. And they were doing policy research. In this expansion moment, they didn't have the time to build out their people and cultures team. They didn't have time to build their HR. So, they basically hired all their subject matter experts into middle managers and senior leaders without that development. Oh, wow. So, just to get that context. Yes. So, working with a VP, she comes to us with a challenge. She's a white woman who is feeling a little bit challenged by a new hire. She comes to us saying, we've just hired this young black woman into a junior role. She's not performing. And I'm not really sure how to give her feedback. I want to be sensitive to our cultural dynamic. And I need some guidance. Well, as I was listening, I could tell that this is an organization that cared very deeply about social equity. They care very deeply about race. And what she was bringing to the table was a deep concern for how her identity was showing up in the relationship. But as I started asking questions about the facts, what was actually more prevalent was that there was not a structure to bring this new hire into the role. She was not on boarded properly. Okay, okay. So, we had to shift the lens and say, this is not a race issue. Like you, you know, this is not, that's not the lens with which you need to look at this. We need to see this from a supervisor, supervisee. We need to retroactively onboard this person. And when there is structure, then when there are cultural dynamics that come up, there's at least a pathway for conversation. And then we can talk about what those pathways need to look like and what kinds of conversational structures that we can create within the workflow structure. So, it's things like that when we're not able to understand, you know, our narrative versus how we're perceiving what's going on versus the actual facts and the events that are occurring. So, this is how we get down to the root cause and we help leaders kind of isolate the different pieces. Gotcha. All right, audience, you heard that. So, I'm gonna read it back to you, just a little bit. Sometimes we're busy fixing symptoms instead of confronting the pattern causing the problem. Real leadership requires the courage to ask better questions. All right? So, just so you know, ask those better questions. You're listening to the expert here. Tina's telling us here, the expert. Question for you, Tina. You work with organizations facing uncertainty and difficult decisions. What separates leaders who build trust during challenging seasons from those who unintentionally create confusion? So, the leaders that are able to build trust are the ones that are the most curious. Oh, that's good. And when they're curious, I find that they are actually most curious about themselves. Ooh. So, it's actually, you know, curiosity, like everyone talks about it, it's a thing, like, you know. Yeah, yeah. Right? So, I'm not saying anything brand new, except maybe just the angle with which I approach curiosity. Yes, yes. Which is that you can only be as curious with someone else as you are with yourself. So, as a leader, if you are not willing to look at yourself and get curious about yourself, you are not gonna be able to get curious about your employees. You're not gonna be able to get curious about your strategies. So, there has to be a back and forth in terms of that curiosity, but it has to start with you. That curiosity also gives space and lays the groundwork and foundation for what I call great levels of vulnerability. I think vulnerability, you know, because it is so popularized and can still be a challenge for folks, I think people have a different idea of what vulnerability is especially in our movement spaces. We tend to think about vulnerability as being, you know, completely out there, sharing everything about our lives. It's like showing up how we are. And I think that there's some temperament that needs to happen around that. It's still a work environment. So, you know, it's like, yes, bring yourself. And like, yeah, I'd like you to curate it a little bit. I need you to like, make sure that you are holding accountability and responsibility for your own emotional regulation. I need you to be able to, so that I can engage in curiosity with you in a way that is, there's some container and there's some mutual accountability on how we engage in that together. So the leaders that I think are able to traverse challenge, the best are the ones that are curious about themselves. They're curious about their team and that they're not afraid to fail, whatever that means. That's good. They're not afraid to fail. I don't think many of us think about that failure. I just had someone on that said, he worked as a CEO in Silicon Valley and he said, which I love, failure is an option. And I was like, what do you mean? We don't fail here in New York. And it really is being afraid. Don't be afraid because if you don't, you do, you overwork yourself, you burn out. Try not to fail, but sometimes it's inevitable to learn a lesson, to learn. I can't do that. Absolutely. I had, so in our tradition, we have this proverb that says, a dog can only walk in one direction. I had a priest then tell me, say, Tina, a dog can only walk in one direction, but that dog can always change directions. Yes. And I think that that's that, that mentality of a leader is, yes, you can't go in all directions all at once, but you can go down a path. And if that, if you've tested that path enough and knowing when it's enough, then you can pivot, you can shift. Yes, you can go another way. Yeah, exactly. It's true. If you could coach every executive, entrepreneur, nonprofit leader, and business owner listening today, what's one leadership mindset they need to leave behind and one they need to embrace to build healthy organizations? One to leave behind. I would say this, and this is not true for everyone, but what I see, the one that hurts the most is being a savior. We can't save everybody. Yeah. And even in through our missions, we can't save the world alone. We cannot be the savior. And I would say to just kind of extrapolate that a little bit. Sure. And this maybe goes into like, and then what you bring with you is a real deep appreciation for reflecting on how you express your values. And so continuously remain curious about how you express them as you evolve, because you will, and your organizations will evolve. What do I mean by this? I had another client where the way this person defined their expression of equity, like what it meant to be an equitable leader, was they defined it as sharing and redistributing power. It's a beautiful definition. However, her interpretation of that, the way it played out, had this sense of, I'm going to at all times, make sure that other people have power. On the flip side of that, what that meant was people were being prematurely hired into senior leadership roles before they were ready. It meant that she was not able to take the time to steward people's learning and develop their ability to take on that responsibility. And so when you think about this, if you, like with this particular leader, asking the question of, is this really about a redistribution of power, or is this about an abdication of your own power because you're afraid of holding it? Right? And both can be true. Yep. And it goes back to the savior mentality, right? Like redistribute power because that's how people are gonna get their agency and that's how we're gonna, you know, right? We're gonna give people back their agency. Yeah. You can't give people their agency. You can create conditions for them to engage in their own agency. Yep. And so sometimes creating those conditions might mean holding onto power longer than you want to. Yeah. I see that a lot in nonprofit organizations. Yeah. A lot of that, you know, they have that thing going on. I see that all the time. And I go into, you know, nonprofit organizations and they, you know, solve the problems you do. And I see that a lot that their mentality is, this is my baby, I found it. And they're still holding the baby. Yeah. They're still holding the baby and they're making like tragic mistakes. That's right. Along the way. And then why do I have turnover? You know, it's like those things. It's like, they want to create agency for everybody. Yep. And then there's no, and then they, how do I stop doing everything? Stop giving too much agency. It's like, you're creating it, you know? So I see that a lot. Yeah. And I think that that's the, like the other extreme, like the founder syndrome, where it's like that version of savior and expression is I'm going to do everything. I'm going to hold onto everything because I can't, I don't trust other people to do it as well as I can, right? Where you're like in a different way, you're not creating the conditions for people to engage in their own agency, right? Because we're thinking we have to do it for them. We have to give it to them. So I think the best thing a leader can do, especially if we're going into the social impact space is to really reflect on how you express those values and have a practice of continuing to reflect on how you do that as you evolve. Because the way those practices are going to be at a startup mode of an organization is not going to be the same as when an organization is entering a growth stage. Exactly. Yeah. You have to pivot. You really do have to pivot. Exactly. That's good. All right. So audience, I hope you're getting a lot out of this and I hope that you're going to commit to improve. If you're a leader, if you're in leadership, commit to one of these great things that Tina's talking about today. So right now we're at our flash round, Tina. Will you give quick answers only? Okay. It comes to the top of your head. Eight questions come to the top of your head and you're going to give the pearls. This is what we give the pearls to the audience. All right? Okay. Okay, here we go. Okay, biggest mistake leaders make? Not being curious about themselves. One word that defines great leadership? Integrity. Oh, that's good. Leadership or management? Leadership. Culture or strategy? Cross between both. Okay. What's one conversation leaders avoid too often? Ooh. Sorry, this is a hard one. Which ones do they avoid too often? The one that they're worst at. Goofy. Got it. Okay. One leadership book everyone should read? Oh, that is hard. Good to great. By Jim Collins. Okay. What's one habit every successful executive should practice? Reflection. That's good too. Finish the sentence. Leadership becomes transformation when? It's done in relationship to others and with others. Wow, that's good. That's really good. I love what you said. I loved everything that you said. I hope that the audience that you really get have gotten something from Tina today because you can always look her up. She's gonna, all of her information's gonna be at the bottom of the video. So make sure you look down there and we'll have all our information there. Last words from you, Tina, that you could tell anybody that's, you know, one piece of leadership wisdom. You hope every executive, entrepreneur, nonprofit leader, anybody's emerging in the professional fields that they can take today from you. I'd say there's no idea that's too crazy to explore. The world is changing. And so if you think it's crazy, that's probably the one you wanna spend like a few minutes exploring because there's probably something in it for you. If it came to you, there's a reason. So take a second to explore it and see what you can learn from it. Oh, that's so good. Tina, thank you for sharing your wisdom, your leadership experience, and your practical insights. Thank you for reminding us that leadership isn't about avoiding difficult moments. It's about leading through the clarity, the integrity, and purpose. Thank you so much. Thank you. Listen, audience, if today's conversation has challenged your thinking or encouraged your leadership, please like and share. And again, Tina's information is under this video. Make sure that you get in touch with her for her expertise. And this is Edna White and my esteemed guest today, Tina Vespa saying goodbye for now. Thanks, Edna.