Karl-Anthony Towns' Knicks Extension: Max Contract or Team-Friendly Deal? | NY Got Game

What's good everybody? Welcome back to another edition of New York Got Game. It's your boy Dexter Henry alongside my guy Brian Fonseca. The offseason continues. Basketball never stops. You know how it all goes. Always have something new to talk about with the Knicks. And I think, Brian, one of the biggest things about the Knicks right now, because all the offseason business is pretty much done, we still don't know who's going to be the third center on this team. I know a lot of people still want to know. Or second, question mark. Question mark too. Andre Drummond is in the fold. Yes. We'll see how training camp goes. We'll see. Never know. But we gotta talk about who's the number one center on this team. That is Carl Anthony Towns. And I feel like his contract situation is still looming over this Knicks offseason. Everybody's trying to figure out what's going to happen with this, right? Is he going to get an extension? Is extension eligible? When is this going to happen? Are you shocked that this hasn't happened already? I'm not. Nah, not really. Because if you're the Knicks, you don't really have to rush into this. If you're a cat, you probably want to rush into this. You probably want that contract right now. You want it yesterday. Yes. So these things do tend to happen just randomly. Sometimes you'll get it right after the season. Sometimes you'll get it during training camp, right before training camp, right before the season starts. Whatever. But I don't think it's the biggest deal in the world. I just know that if you're a cat, you should want this done now. Yeah. I mean, just for the financial security. No. He wants it done. His agent wants it done. So I wanted us to try to talk about this. Because I think the big question that we start off at the top is, okay, and we're going to get into what extension could look like for cat and all that stuff. We'll get into all that. But is he worth a max extension? Now, Carnegie Towns is eligible for four-year, $272 million extension, right? So my question here is, is he worth a max extension, right? Or is he even worth extending at all? Because that is the big question, right? Are you going to give him the max? Is he going to take less? Do you even want to extend them at all? Right? I think the real question here is, is paying a center, who's aging, we're all aging, right? But you ain't getting any younger. None of y'all out there getting any younger either. Me and Cat are about the same age. Yeah, you're aging. Let's say that. You're aging. Getting over 30 and beyond, right? You feel it. You feel it. Trust me. I think he's earned an extension. Yes. Based on what he's did since coming over here. Obviously delivering a championship. We'll get into that more later. The question is, has he earned a maximum extension of four years and $272 million? Now, before this, you were saying to me a good comp that you brought up before we started recording. Who was the player you mentioned? We should look at two recent extensions. Two guys that got maxes recently. Recently got maxes? Yes, this summer. One I know you're going to bring up. Donovan Mitchell, who has the highest AAV now moving forward, average annual value of $68.2 million. He signed for what? Four years, $272 million, which is basically what Cat is eligible for. Shea Gilchrist-Alexander is number two. He signed for four for $271.6. Roughly the same thing. AAV, just under $68 million a year. This is what Cat's max is. Cat's max is basically whatever Donovan Mitchell's getting right now and whatever Shea Gilchrist-Alexander is about to get right now. Four years and about $272 million. Average annual value, $68 million. That is a lot of money. So what are you saying? Is he worth the max extension or not? I think he's worth the extension. I didn't hear the word max in there, sir. I didn't hear the word max in there. That is a lot of money to pay also for, again, and we're going to give him a lot of credit for basically helping Knicks win the title for obvious reasons. Oh, he's got to. But if you're talking about just a financial conversation in a salary cap sport, because if there were no salary cap, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, give Cat the money. But in a salary cap sport where the second apron looms, can you really pay him basically the second highest contract or the highest contract in the NBA? In the NBA. For your second option. While you're about to pay Jalen Brunson the same contract, maybe more, I don't know what his max is actually going to be, but it's going to be in that territory. And he's getting every dollar this time. He's not taking $113 million pay cut. So to me, there aren't that many guys that are worth the max. We give maxes out to guys who are not max players. I think you can give Cat a lot of money, but with the context of it being a salary cap sport, I don't think you can give him the biggest contract in the NBA, which is essentially what it would be. Yeah, I'm with you. Especially if you're trying to keep, we'll get to this more too, as we get deep in this conversation, as you're trying to keep this window open, you cannot give your second best player, second most important offensive player, who was big time for you in the championship run, and I'll get to that in a second. You can't pay him the max dollars here. This is why Jalen Brown got traded, by the way. This is literally why. Yeah, if you really talk about it, right? And we'll, to that point, we'll see if Philadelphia will want to extend him. I think they're going to wait and see as well too. As they should? As they should. I'm not saying they shouldn't extend him. I'm not saying any of that. There's a reason he got traded. There's a reason he got traded for what he got traded for also. Because they didn't want to pay him. Right. Simple as that. Boston did not want to pay him. Again, that doesn't mean that Philadelphia won't pay him. And the same thing can apply to Cat. You know, somebody might be willing to pay something that someone else is. This kind of brings me to the next question, because it's about what is his value to the Knicks? Right, Brian? And then, did the championship, or winning the championship, change anything about Cat's value? Because if we're all keeping it a buck, and I know some fans out there, now you can say you love Cat. All of y'all been love Cat. Okay? We saw the comments. We saw the questions. You know, some of you guys were skeptical. Some were skeptical, and some were just like, many. Not some. Yeah, I think most, to be fair to say. To be fair, I'm not saying that you were wrong. Warranted. Yeah, I'm not saying the skepticism wasn't warranted. Because I don't feel that way. Not all of you could act like you always do. I will at least say that people questioned whether he could be the second best player on the championship team. At least I'll say when the trade was made for him, right? People were questioning, can he be the second best player on the championship team? To be fair, when he was with the Timberwolves, they had some questions about that too. And to be fair, was he the second best player on the championship team? I'm trying to start stuff. OG was really good. Like, OG was really good. I agree. I think there was- And in the finals. I think there were spurts where Cat definitely was the second best player. There were times where OG was. Early in the series. But I think what was been dope about the Knicks construction was, either player could switch. That's kind of valuable. So do you want to max out the play? Right. I got you. But I guess- No, but to my- No. The answer is no for me. It's like, this is the thing. But what I'm asking is, do you think now that he's got that chip, it's changed his value or the way either, A, he looks at himself and his value. Or B, the way the team looks at him and his value. But they don't value him enough to pay him the max, you're saying. Right, but if I'm Cat, I'm going to say, hey, I proved to y'all that I can play defense in the playoffs. Fair, he did. Basically what he did. No doubt, no doubt. And a big part of why they won the championship was because, no, you could not attack Brunson and Cat in the way that we all thought. Great point. Going into the playoffs. And yes, OG has something to do with that. Mikael stepping up has something to do with that. Like the infrastructure has something to do with that. But ultimately, Cat, we saw it starting in the Atlanta series, like when they really turned it around. He's one of the guys who really stepped up defensively. And we were saying, hey, not only is it difficult to finish around him, because it wasn't just rim protection, but also driving on him was not as easy as it appeared to be at various points in the season. Yep. So he proved that he can be a winning player on both ends of the floor, which has been a question his entire career. Like his entire career. Not to mention the offensive fouls and overcoming that and things of that nature. You and I, we love watching those. Correct. Most in the league. But he was able to control himself a little bit more, compose himself a little bit more in the playoffs. And then you saw with the defense in the playoffs, he was able to stand in front of Victor Wambanyama. He was able to contain various different guys in Atlanta. The switches were not just layup lines. You know what I mean? Just walkways to finish it in the basket. Right. He held up in a more than competent way. And that's part of why they won the championship. No. I was going to say, I love that you talked about his value and what he brought to the team in the postseason without talking much about his offense. Because I think so much gets talked about. Or rebounding for that matter. I think we know. I think a lot of fans know how dope of a defensive rebounder he was throughout the season. The value of him. And it was kind of great you had him. And he admits he was good on the offensive glass. But those are things we know he can do. And what he proved in the playoffs is he can do things that we questioned. But I love that you talked about the defense. Because I think so much attention gets placed on after game three against Atlanta, where he became that offensive hub. And this was something, to be fair, we got to tell the story correctly. He went to Mike Brown and asked for it. And said, hey, put the ball in my hands. I don't want to just finish here offensively. I want to find ways I can set up for others. In some ways, we have to give him credit that that was a very selfless move. And you don't remember how many times we would sit here and do the watch parties. People say, Katz only got four shots. And I'm like, he's being efficient with his touches. He's making the right pass. He's making the right reads. And that's all I cared about. He played winning basketball. Right. He made winning play after winning play after winning play. Yes. So, you know, the thing for me is, did winning the championship remove any hesitation that the Knicks might have had about investing in him long term? Because I think that, I don't want to just say the fans were, had trepidation. The Knicks had trepidation too. Okay. The Knicks were looking at this and saying, I don't know. I mean, there were trade rumors during the season. That Kat talked about affecting him. We know that affected him, right? Yeah. The Giannis talks was a preseason and mid-season thing. I do also want to add, and for people somehow, because I remember seeing different reactions as some fans were like, well, you can't worry about that. They tried to use the old Don Draper line from them. And that's what the money is for. And all this stuff. And it's like, no, people are human beings and this stuff affects them in some way. Easier said than done. I think Kat deserves credit for, even though he went through a thing, felt some kind of way having the mental toughness to then change that when it mattered the most in the playoffs. Yeah. He asked for the ball to do things with, and he did it and then did it also defensively. But again, does that change the way the Knicks feel about him investing in him long-term? Cause that's the thing we're getting to the meat of this is the value change. We both agree to value change for him in a way he sees himself and maybe the way the Knicks see him, but does it change how they might want to invest in him long-term? And that's, that's why the max conversation is important because it's not merely, Hey, are you willing to extend them? Because I think, I feel like the answer is flatly. Yes. I think they're willing to extend. He wants to extend. I think all parties involved want to get a deal done at some point, but it's the money. Like how much actual money is going to be here? Like, I don't know. This is just throwing something out there. This, I don't know if this is true, but like there's a world where Kat could want the max and the team was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We'll do four for 200, which is 50 million a year, not 68 million a year. And that's like a dramatic $72 million difference over four years. Like teams could be far apart. The Pistons and Jalen Durant still haven't come to terms because they're far apart to the point where we don't know if he's going to take the qualifying offer and just be unrestricted next year. That would be shocking because that rarely ever happens. Yeah. Although it would save the Pistons a ton of money on the front end. Sure. We'll see what happens on the back end. Peyton Watson, same thing in Denver. Teams just be far apart, especially with restricted free agents, which this isn't. But we don't know. So to your point, he's proven worthy of an extension for sure. Yeah, I agree. And it should be mentioned, 31 years old or about to be 31 years old in November. So this is going to take him to his mid-30s. He's going to take it to his mid-30s. And centers sometimes don't generally age well. Yeah. And also this is about to be year 12. So you're paying for 13, 14, 15, and 16. So this is why this part is important. Like this is Kat's opportunity to cash out. Like this may be his last chance at a max contract or like a big, big, big contract like that. You know what I mean? Like this may be his last chance at it. You don't know. Okay, but you talked about if the team, you know, he says what he wants. I want four for 272. I want the max. And teams like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And you counted with, would you say four for 200? Yeah. Right. So you put him at 50 per year. Let's, let's take, let's go to the, I know we're generally, we're always player friendly here. But let's go to the Knicks side of things here. Should the Knicks come to Kat and say, hey man, you saw what the captain did. Why don't you follow his example here? Why don't you take, you know, maybe 113, 100 million dollars off. You just asked for a $72 million pay cut. I'm going to say, push that a little bit further and maybe do what the captain did. Cause they're going to say, hey, we got to pay the captain. He took the discount first. If you really want to keep the band together, you should, you know, do his day. And they're going to use that argument that Brunson sacrificed. That's a dangerous thing about Brunson doing that to begin with. Yeah. And Kat might sit there and be like, I'm not Brunson for many reasons. He would say that, but I'm not Brunson. Right. Like, so I don't have to do that. I'm a big man. I'm going into years 12 through 16, as you just mentioned. In terms of this. So I guess there's a lot of things here. One, should the organization, the mix expect Kat to do the same thing that Brunson did? Is it fair to ask? Although sometimes fail and deserve have nothing to do with it. Right. It's business. Especially when we're talking money, a lot of times they don't. I think the major thing, cause people will be like, well, Brunson sacrificed, he could sacrifice too. I think that's what fans will say. And some people are going to say, you also won the title. So that should make... You sacrificed for the title. Right. But now they're saying now that you've won the title. That should make sacrificing for others than Brunson easier. One might make, I'm not saying I agree with that argument, but one might make that argument. Right. Okay. Brunson did this for the title. He did it so y'all can enjoy this title. Now y'all got to do this so Brunson can get paid. Right. Now, again, I would ask people, if this is your own money or your own situation at work, would you be willing to do that for your teammates? That's a really good question. And I think a lot of people will look at this and be like, why can't he just take 4 for 200 or 4 for 160? Because it's still a lot of money. Sure. But you have a limited time to play and you and I would agree. We've had many conversations about this. We believe that each player in all these sports should try to Yeah. And if I'm Cat, you're not paying me less than you're paying. Then the Cavs are paying Evan Mobley. Like that's not happening. And Evan Mobley is getting roughly 53, 54 million a year. So that's your line. So you have a line. I would say everybody's got a price and a line. That's your line. If you would say that would be a line if you're Cat or you're his agent. I mean, well, let me see if my line is higher. Devin Booker is getting 4 for 220, which is basically, it's Cat's current contract. That's Cat's current contract right now. That's the other thing. It's like you can't pay. You can't even do 4 for 200, for example, because Cat will be taking a pay cut from his last contract. And since then, he's won a title and proven that he's more valuable to the championship than he was in that other deal. So, OK, so I'm going to do this for you because, no, that's a great point. But I'm going to be his agent. Agent Brian Fonseca, you're his agent. You're talking about this with Cat. And let's say the Knicks come to him and ask him for a discount less than even 50 mil a year, right? Somewhere in that Brunson discount. I know, I'm just playing this out hypothetically. That's the face you're going to make? Agent Brian, you're going to be like, yo, what's going on? We got our title. We can get a trade, too. Like, get a trade? No, that is not happening. Because, like, as I'm staring at the contracts of the different players in the NBA, unfair comparison, but because this is a high and the worst contract draft. Joel Embiid is getting 3 for 187. Worst contract in the league. Some would say. I say it. 62.6 AAV, fifth highest in the NBA. The only ones above him are Donovan Mitchell, who just signed. And we know that the guys who just signed tend to be the highest paid guys. That's why Jaylen Brown was the highest paid player of all time at one point. And now he is, like, barely in the top 10. Shea Gillespie Alexander, second. Devin Booker, third. On that new extension that he signed. So the one that I referenced earlier is his current contract. But he has 2 for 132 coming to him. And then Tatum has 5 for 313. That's fourth. And then Embiid's fifth. So if I'm Cat, my line is probably there. Giannis is going to get, presumably, a max extension. He'll be in this conversation. He'll jump in this conversation again. Anthony Davis is getting 3 for 175. 58 million a year. And he wants an extension. That's what's up. Give it to him. But yes. Like, the conversations with Cat, like, if I'm the agent. We're starting at 60 million a year. Like, 4 for 240. I mean, well, honestly, we're starting at the max. And we're going to see if we get that first. But then as far as where we're willing to go down. Like, it ain't below 60 million a year. Something like that. You have a finite amount of time to cash out if you're a player. And again, this could be it. He has a little bit of an injury history. We don't know. This could be it. This is going to take him into, if it's a four-year deal, the 16th year of his career. Because it's 12 years already paid. Because that's his coming season. It's going to take him from 13 to 16. And 16 years of his career, he'll be in his mid-30s. He'll be like 35 years old or something along those lines. Like, do you think he's getting a max at 35 years old? No. So. But somebody might say, you think he's going to max now? I don't. Ultimately, when. Because I do think. I do think they get something done more than I don't. I want to be clear about that. I just don't think it's going to be for the max. But I still think it's going to be a lot of money. Okay. I guess that. Okay. This is going to get us to the next place I wanted to go. Because you're just. You're hitting on there. And I like what you said about being an agent. I agree with you. If I was an agent, I would definitely draw a line somewhere. Now. You at first. It's funny how you changed your line a little bit. When you looked at numbers. When you had more information. Yeah. Because at first you were like, Evan Mobley is the line. No, I saw Mobley. And then I looked up a little bit more. And I was like, Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid. And if I'm Cat, why am I taking less than Joel Embiid or Anthony Davis? I get it. And it's a sacrifice to win the title. Because Brunson sacrifice and Shamus sacrifice and a Jose Alvarado sacrifice. There's always a price in the line. How much do you want to sacrifice? Right. And on top of that, Cat has more at stake than these. He's one of the oldest guys on the team. Understood. Not to say he's old, but one of the older guys. One of the older guys. This is a chance to cash out. Brunson. Last contract. We'll get in his prime. Brunson, if things broke, right, which they clearly did. We knew he was going to get another contract. And absolutely. Yeah. Like there was a future there. Like where Cat is today. He has to play for right now in those negotiation rooms, him and his agent. I agree. So, okay. So we're there. We have ruled out the max. This is, we do not think he's getting the max. Now I'm with you. You got to ask. You have to ask you. It would be irresponsible as an agent and him to not ask, right? Are we sure he's not getting the max? Like, are we a hundred percent sure? I don't think. When I, when I talk to people about this and I, and even Stefan Bondy and I talked about this a little bit once, I think at the beginning of the off season and he said he didn't think he would get the max. I don't think so either. But I don't think a lot of people think that. I think what the unknown is when you talk to people around the league and they cover this team is they don't know how much the discount is going to be. So that's kind of where I wanted to go here. What should an extension for cat actually look like? Because if we are saying that he's not getting the max, would it be less years? I think that's unlikely. He's going to get his four. I was, I was wondering about that though. Would you take less years? Would he take two? But the whole purpose of doing that would be like a balloon payment. And if you're doing a max for two years, like what's the point in not doing the max for four, you know? It doesn't help either side. It doesn't help the team. It doesn't help. It doesn't help the player. Would you try to structure the contract? So it's descending salary, which helps the team. Yeah. In some way. If I'm a cat, do I want to do that? No. Here's the other thing. Probably not. I might be willing to though, because it's so much money that at that point, it's like, yeah, whatever. Right. You're getting so much at the front end. Yeah. The things that teams would like to do, and we saw this happen with some of the deals partial guarantees. If I'm catation, I'm telling you to get up out of here. No, no. I don't want to hear the word partial guarantee player option. Sure. Nothing else. We're okay. We're considering nothing. It's like, give me the power to opt out of my own contract. Would you do three with a player option for? It's not, it doesn't really help the team. Two plus one or three plus one. Either or two plus one or three plus one. Yes. Two plus one. Doesn't help you. And because you're not getting, you're not getting, you're not getting close to the long-term security. And if this team is so worried about the second apron front-loading the contract, I'm not sure how much sense that makes either, because. You want the flexibility in these next couple of years. And in 27, 28, he becomes maybe the highest paid player in the league. If you're front-loading it, or at least in that conversation, like he's up there. It takes up too much of your cap. Then you have to pay Jaylen Brunson. Yeah. Who his contract, I don't think would kick in in 27. I think that'd be the following year, but still not to mention what's going to happen with Josh Hart's extension. We'll get to that. We'll get to that in a sec. Or I guess the other option I'll throw out for people too, is right. It's kind of what Brian has talked about before, where you take a little bit less. And you get slightly below max annual value. So something like six, I know slightly below 60 to 68. It doesn't sound like slightly below, but it does help the team. I wonder if that, to me, that's probably the sweet spot. What you mentioned before, do you do something that looks like for, for two 40, for two 40, we're getting 60 per year. Cause could you get it less if you're the next to try to give you some more flexibility? I, I just wonder if the agent's line will be where you drew the line. You're, I think your line is logical and reasonable. Yeah. And I don't think people should expect all the players to take less just because Brunson did. I guess what we're asking, I don't, I don't think because ultimately it's like these players need to cash out in a salary cap sport. And the onus shouldn't be on them to take less. It should be on the people actually paying them to make smarter decisions. This, this was something, this was something I wrote about on my sub stack other side of the game, which was about. I don't like the fact with the second April. Some things I do like about these things. I don't like about it. One of the things I don't like is that you have situations like this, whether it's Mitch, whether it's cat. Now we're having this conversation. A player does something in winning a championship that enhances, increases their value. And now we're talking about them not being able to cash in on the work. They did like cat did that work that you just mentioned at the top. He's earned an extension. He earned the extension. And now, whether or not, do I think he's a max player? No, I don't. Would I want, if I was building a team to pay my second option as one of the highest players pay players in the league? No, despite what he did. I'm giving him all the credit for that, but I'm saying the second option is fair. But I generally wouldn't want to do that. But should he be paid? Like one of the, like, should he have one of the 10 highest paid contracts in the NBA long-term? Probably not. But here's the thing. If it's your turn, you're going to be, you're going to be one of those guys, right? And then eventually Giannis will get more. This person will get more. Yeah. I think the way he's looking at it and the way his agent might look at it. And they'll be like, look, I just want a title. I played solid defense. I changed the game for the Knicks on offense. And during the playoff run, I looked like one of the best big men in the league. And I did it when it mattered the most. I looked like a two-way big man. Yeah. Which I was out playing Wemby for some of the finals. For two of those games. And I, who saw that coming? Because I, listen, I saw what Cat did through the playoffs, but that good. We did a film breakdown and we saw ways and thought that he could attack Wemby and all this other stuff. And we were right about that in the first two games. We specifically talked about some ways he could have done that. I think the major question here, when we talk about what should an extension look like, if it's not the max. It's just really like what contract gives Cat the security he craves. I think we're right. It's going to be a three plus one. There's going to be a four. I don't see anything less than that. But it still gives what Knicks fans are going to want too. I know Knicks fans want the band back. But if you, the second apron world they're in, you want to also give Leon Rose flexibility. So can you have both things at the same time? And you brought more of the band back than Boston did. And then OKC appears too. Other teams have won titles. For now. Which is to say, good luck keeping the band together in this era. Even in a non-second apron world, it's hard to keep championship teams in championship corps together. Like when the Celtics won in like 08, we started gradually seeing guys picked off here and there. The Tony Allens of the world and Glenn Davis and so on and so forth. And then eventually they had to trade like everybody. You know, like Ray Allen left and they had to trade Kevin Garnett. And they had to trade Paul Pierce. And it was what it was. Like we've seen corps fracture like that over time. We saw happen with the Heat, with the Warriors after they had runs. And now it's even harder to keep those corps together. Like again, we went into the offseason being like, they're going to lose Mitchell Robinson. They might also lose Shamit. And maybe they keep everybody else. Maybe. And they ended up keeping everybody but Mitchell Robinson essentially. And Ariel Huckporty if you're really torn up about that. Someone is. So like I think that you have to, you can't take for granted that you kept just about everybody. Because now it's going to get harder. Because Brunson is paid for and just checked. Because it was right earlier the next two years. He is not opting into 43 million, 28, 29. I think that is a safe bet to say he is declining that player. And that extension, whatever it is, he'll be the highest paid player in the league. Probably for a period of time before he ends up moving down. Remember Jalen Brown was the highest paid player. And now he's like ninth. He's like ninth, 10th with Jimmy Butler. And people will go crazy. Because he did the same thing with Jalen Brown. And people go crazy all the time. It's all cyclical. It all comes back. Yeah, yeah. It's whoever's turn it is. That's basically what it is. So if Cat has a top five contract after this extension. I wouldn't be bent out of shape about it like that. Because one, you have a title. And two, it's his turn. And he'll, in a couple years, be out of the top ten. So I'm glad you brought up Mitchell Robinson. Because you remember when we were doing these free agency shows. Pre-free agency shows, I should say. There were so many fans. It's like, I don't care. Money be damn. Apron be damn. Spend the money. Whatever. I'm not saying all of y'all sounded like that. But that's what y'all sounded like to me in my head. The second apron really matters here going forward. There's no way, in my opinion, of getting around it. Like, it matters a ton here. Because what the Knicks don't want to do. What have I been saying all offseason? The most important thing for the Knicks going forward. If they want to have cracks of continuing to defend their title. Is flexibility. Flexibility. And the second apron's here through the rest of the decade. Now, I just want to be very clear for people. If you go over the second apron. How does it hurt you? Well, can't aggregate salaries. There are limited ways you can make trades. Which also means limited ways for you to improve your roster. As well, too. And the real hard thing, as we saw with Mitchell Robinson. Even when you pay someone like Cat more money. It's going to be harder for you to keep role players. And your drafters could get frozen. Also, there's a lot. This is why nobody's in the second apron now for that reason. I think Denver temporarily is. Denver temporarily is. But I think that ownership. You know anything about that ownership. They're going to look to get out of that. And Cleveland's also got a lot of money committed. But they'll figure something out. Right. Even Philadelphia with their additions. They're trying to make sure that they are not in the second apron. Because they want that flexibility. So, I guess my thing, Brian. Is do you think keeping the championship core together. Which fans have valued a lot. And I get it. I really, really do understand that. And you should want that. And it's a shame you have to even have these conversations about it. But right now. Look at this world in the second apron. Is keeping the championship core together. Worth sacrificing future flexibility. See. But that is the question. But that's the question at the core of this. That's the question. It depends on what you're trying to do. Are you trying to see how far you can get. Running this back with this core. Or are you trying to better your future. So that you can potentially win more championships. Not to say you can't do it with this core. I think people will try to say. Hey, why can't you do both. But you know. It's difficult. To me. Just because of where we are in the NBA. I'll be surprised if they keep this core together. For more than two more seasons. Like anything beyond that. It's going to be very difficult financially. And that's also what Brunson's contract will kick in. The next contract. Just put a pin in that. Because I want to come back to that. Just put a pin in that. To your point. I think that for all these teams. Again, this part sucks. I get it. You build a good team. And then you have to start worrying. Okay, how long can I keep this championship team. Or this championship core together. The uncomfortable truth here. For the fans. And it sucks for the fans. I really want to stress that. It sucks for the fans. I don't think this is good for the fans. I agree. The uncomfortable truth is. The clock is ticking. From the time you get to a championship contender level. Or you win the championship. Just look at the Celtics. Just look at the Thunder and what they've done this offseason. The Celtics traded every. Drew gone. Chris Asprazinga's gone. Jalen Brown gone. They got rid of some role players too. Like they couldn't keep that thing together. Yeah. They just could not. And the Celtics even talked about it. After trading Jalen Brown. Now granted I don't think they wanted to pay him. But they were like hey. But they did the first time. And then you saw what happened. And then OKC just got rid of. For only draft picks. Just to save money. Lou Dort. Isaiah Joe. Aaron Wiggins. Good meaningful players. Three good players. Who will all play. Two of them really good two-way players. Yes. Who will all play in their next destination. Right. And my point is. Once you win. Or you get to this level. Depending on where you are in your team building. Like San Antonio is a little bit different. Because they're younger. But the clock is always ticking. Yeah. Because you have to pay guys. You have to extend guys. The clock is always ticking. And what I'm about to say. I know it's not going to feel good for the Knicks fan. Nothing lasts forever. And these things are shorter. These windows are shorter. They're tighter. All you can ask for your team. Whether you like it or not. In this era. Is. Can you try to keep the window open. As long as you can. Yeah. And then could you be able. If you have a star. Which the Knicks do with Jalen Brunson. Can you be able to retool. Quickly to try to get back to that level. With some new pieces. Now I'm not saying that's easy. It's a lot easier said than done. But that is the thing. Now. I ask you to put a pin in something. Right there. Because. To me. The question that you were kind of asking. When you talked about the core. And keeping this core together. Is. Are the Knicks better off. Betting on this core. That they've seen win a championship. That fans are proud of. That they put together. Leon Rose. I'm sure is proud of. That he put together. Or. Is it about replenishing that depth. And trying to keep this thing moving in another way. So what's the bet here. Are you betting on this core. Is going to get you another title. Or two. Or. Are you saying. Ah. If we keep. If we try to get this depth better on this team. Try to hit on some draft picks. Make some other smart trades. Consolidate in some ways. Is that the better move. Because that to me is another. There's a lot of key questions around Kat. And I think this is such a good discussion. Because the way I would say look at it. Is like okay. Let's look at this as a five year outlook. So I'm going a little. But hold on. You'll hear me on this. Because if you are extending Kat. Right. And that money is tied up. This is what you're talking about. Okay. There's a. Right. Because you. Yeah. Like just. Because it's one. And then the four hours. So you got to think. That's why I chose. And then Brunson's getting. Whatever. Four or five years. Whatever it is. So to me the question is. Just in the next five years. I can't tell you how this look. Kat is going to look. I can't tell you what's exactly going to happen. But is it better to lock in Kat. And have him under contract. As you said going through seasons. What 13 through 16. Or. Is it about preserving the ability. To keep upgrading. Around your star. In Jalen Brunson. What. Because that's really the question. Do you want to upgrade around Jalen Brunson. Keep your depth. Maybe give yourself more depth. Than you even have right now. Or is it better to lock Kat in. For those next four years. If you lock Kat in. It's like that's. He's part of the core then. So then the. What. What it becomes after is. As I'm looking at the deals now. OG is 42.5. And then 45. So even OG is going to be extension eligible pretty soon. Because he has a player option after that. For 48 million. After the next two seasons. When you pay Brunson. OG will be extension eligible. Which means you're going to have to pay him too. Like that. We haven't even talked about that part of it. Somebody's. What you're saying and all that. Somebody's going to get traded. At some point. And I'm not even saying. I don't think it's possible to keep the core together. And if it's not any of those three. Then it might be both of Mikael Bridges and Josh Hartley. Like that's how it could be in the NBA now. Unless you decide to just. Everyone just figures out financially. How to just take whatever amount of money it takes. Just keep it together. But then you have to build a bench. Because obviously you can't win title without. Like it's going to be. Like you're going to sacrifice something. This is why again. Be glad you won a championship. This is why. Now you see why teams aren't repeating. In this day and age. Because it's hard. We haven't even talked about Denver. Who was like the first victim of this. But they won in 2023. And a part of this is. Their owner. CEO. Whatever. Does not want to spend money. Does not want to spend that much money. And also spent poorly. With the Christian Brown contract. And that is going to. Maybe cost them Peyton Watson in some form. We'll see. Peyton Watson keeps partying. With Michael Porter Jr. In New York City. So I don't even know. If he's going to be like. Be with the Nuggets next year. Mikael Bridges by the way. He got his contract. 33, 36, 38, 39. And then 41.5. You don't have to worry about him. For now. Unless you have to trade him. I was going to say. That's a very trade friendly contract. And then Josh Hart. Josh Hart is 20. And then 22, 20.9. So really 21 this coming year. And then 22.3. Team option for next year. Which is going to be very interesting. What the Nuggets do with that. Yeah like it. Like I was asking. Like you. So on paper. Is he worth that? Yes. However. If you're trying to do. Like Cat. Is not under contract for that season yet. So you don't even know what the book. You don't fully know what the books are going to look like. Right. You know what Brunson's getting. You know what OG's getting. You know what Mikael's getting. You don't know what Cat is getting. No idea. Cat right now will be on the books. For a player option for 61 million. If he signs an extension. Let's say he signs extension. You said. And it's. For 240. Let's say that. Will he be taking a pay cut? Right. So like. If that. If you. Unless it's. Unless it's front loaded. Unless it starts. At like 65. And comes down. Or whatever. But that doesn't really help the Knicks. Flexibility wise. We don't like. I can't guarantee. I still don't know what the books will look. I can't guarantee you. Josh Hart's going to be here. Even after this season. Is basically the point. Like you would think. Oh yeah. They'll just take his team options. 22 million. Whatever. But like. I just saw this happen with Lou Dorian. Who was an integral part of a championship team. Who the entire purpose of him. And his option being accepted. Who by the way is younger. Not a better player than Josh Hart. Necessarily. But younger. A better defender though. Like an all-world defender. Even though this last year. Kind of fell off a little bit. But still. I think that's a. Pretty apt comparison. And what do they get for him just drafting? To save money. Because they had. Now you got to work in. Mara. Now you got to work in. These new guys. Is Thomas Shorber going to give you anything? Is Nikola Topic going to give you anything? Uh. Like. You also have. AJ Mitchell. You also have. Um. Jared McCain. Who needs to play. Like. You know. They have. They have like champagne problems. But it's still problems. Right. And all. Look. When you win. You're going to have these problems. This is why I'm like. Two more years. Two more years is my expectation. And that. It might. It might really be one. I agree. And that's another conversation. As we get down the road. And people don't want to hear that. I know. I get it. But like. This is the. This is the reality. This is the NBA. This is what. All these front offices are dealing with. Like. It's not as simple as like. Yo. You go in 2k. And you have the bar at the end. That tells you how much the player is interested in the contract. And you make everyone take less. And you're good. You know what I mean. Like. That's not how this works. If we could see that bar for cat right now. We'd have a lot more information to work with. But we don't have that bar. All right. So I guess. Let's close on this. Let's try to give a final verdict. Because. If you're Leon Rose. You just mentioned. You said it's not that easy for Leon Rose. I agree. It's not that easy for the players either. I want to see that too. Because. If. Let's say. Let's also talk about this from the human standpoint. If you like where you're playing. Cat seems to love being back home. Yes. In New York City. He likes this Knicks team. He's been through it. He's embraced the crowd. Embraced the city. All this other stuff. And you won here. You know what it's like to win here. All right. What's that worth to you? While you're balancing the fact of the limited time that you have. To play this sport of basketball at a high level. What's that worth if you. Yes. Some of you out there will say. Well you could just take the whole pay cut. Jalen Brunson didn't blah blah blah. Except that's not your money. That's not you. I'm not going to be Draymond Green out here. Counting other men's pockets. We're not doing that. Right. But. It's different for every player in every situation. It's also different for every team. Every situation. Although they're all playing under the same rules. Of trying to stay under the second apron. So if you're Leon Rose. How are you playing this? What are you? What are you doing? If you're Leon Rose. Are you even going to offer him? Start off with all for less than the max. Yes, you have. You can't. You can't offer the max out right now. If your cat and his agent you ask. You have to ask for that. Do you even do the extension this year for Leon Rose? Do you maybe wait another year? Kick this down the road. That's a possibility to hear that. We didn't even talk about it is. But if your cat you ain't trying to hear that. Because you know, I know. I know what I would say if I'm the agent. If the team tells me they're trying to kick it down the road trade. And I know Knicks fans don't want to hear that either, right? But sometimes that's how a player has to play it to try to gain some leverage, right? Because if your cat list, listen, if Kat were an NFL player, he'd be holding out. Like he might, he might be just, he might just be doing not that he definitely would. But like, this is what NFL players do all the time. And I always support NFL players doing that. Because the way that game is so violent. And their contract NBA players get way more guaranteed guarantee money than they do. Right? Like NFL contracts, you'd be like, wait, this dude signed for five for 125. And it's like 40 million guaranteed. So the first year and part of the second. So I guess it's a two-part question for me. If you're, when I say, if you, what would you do if you're Leon Rose? Are you trying to get this extension done soon as possible? Are you trying to kick this down the road another year? Or are you trying to offer him? I'll even say the, your contract, the four for 240, which I like. I probably start there knowing. Because Kat, like if Kat has to want more than that. Given unless he really doesn't care. Unless he's really like, yo, I'm locked in here, but I don't care what MB is getting. I don't care what mobile is getting. I don't care what Anthony Davis getting. I don't care what any of these guys are getting. I don't care that my player option is 61 million. And if my contract is an ascending contract, that then two four for 240 will start me lower. Because I would probably end up somewhere in the sixties. I would start off in like the mid to high fifties and then climb up year by year by year. Like, I don't know. We have a lot of unanswered questions in terms of who cares about what here. But if it's me, if I'm the agent, I'm asking for the max. Like you have to do it. You just have to, in any walk of life, you have to ask for more than you think you're going to get. In this situation, the most that you can get. Yeah. In any negotiation, like period. Okay. Like at any job you're at, you ask for more than you think you can get. Always count on it. Yeah. And always count on it. Now, if, but if you're, if you're Leon Rose, that first offer cannot be, it cannot be close to the max. I don't think. What's your first offer? It might be four for 240. It might be, it might be less than that. I think it might be four for 200, like you said before. 220 or something like that. Like 55. I would, now if it was me personally, and again, I'm not cat. I feel like the four for 200 is a little insulting. That's, that's why I can't do that. Between four for 220 and four for two, if you do four for 222, that's 50 million less than the max, which is 12 and a half million a year, basically, which is a lot. That's a lot of, that's a big difference, but like you can start there and whatever. But if I'm cat, I'm trying to get this done now because I am not trying to start the season, tear my ACL. And then what? So if you're a cat, the minimum you'd be willing to sign for is the, do that four for 260, four for 240, the 60 per, and AAV. I'd consider, maybe. Is that your, I'm just, you, is that the minimum? Is that the line where you just, you know, I'm not going below that. Maybe that might be the line, but I, that the line might be higher. Might have to be a little bit higher. I just, this is what makes it so bad. Like this is the, this is a chance to cash out. But it makes it so fascinating. What's the line for him? What's the line for Leon Rose? You could also say like four for 240, but it's New York city. He he'll make it up an endorsement. Yeah. Like he'll get a, like he has raising canes. He'll get God knows how many other endorsements. Like it might be fine. Like it might just be okay. You're a champion in New York forever. You can make up a lot of that money. And that that's an, I think that's the point that a lot of Knicks fans would bring up. I think that's easier said than done because at the end of the day, like, this is like cat will not make more money than he's about to make in his life and the story. Like, and the full stop, like, this is the chance to do that and set up your, your family. Um, your family who has been through a lot for generational wealth. Like, again, I'm not, I'm not, I'm never going to be here siding with the billionaires on this correct that I'm not going to be doing. And these players, I know they make their millionaires and they make a lot of money. But again, if you have the chance to do something you love for a limited time, I guess we all do for a limited time, but in terms of sports and athletics, it's an extremely limited time work, right? You're not having, it's not like you have a 30, 40 year career of this. This is where I support the players. If it's me, I think the line you said of four for two 60 feels like a fair deal for both sides for you to 40, excuse me, 60 per. Now look, if it was four for two 55, would I be and cat signed that and took even more of a discount, even like four for two 50. I might be a little bit shocked for cat, but I'd understand it because there's some line of where what's going to come down as to the next are going to value flexibility. As I understand, trying to run a business cat is going to try to value getting a longevity. And also being in a place that he loves playing and hopefully playing with the guys he likes playing with for a longer period of time. Yeah. Does everything always work out beautifully in these situations? No, no negotiations are tough. In fact, none of them have for any of the championships, any of the championship teams. Here's the thing. We'll wrap on this at the end of the day. I don't know how long this core is going to be together. This is a big decision for the Knicks in terms of how long this core could be together or how much longer this court you've seen can defend their title. There will be more decisions to come and there'll be tough decisions to come and possibly some moves and some trades that will make people uncomfortable. This isn't going to last forever because nothing does nothing. Nothing does change. Of course, don't last for they don't last as long as they used to. Yeah, it's an unfortunate reality of the second apron. I understand people will watch this video, hear this discussion and be frustrated, more frustrated than they were before, but they're going to tell some people might even say, why are you talking about this? You know, like, because my job, right? Well, you put the negative vibes out there like we control that. Like, no, not putting negative vibes out here. We're having a discussion with nuance about how all this could work that the Knicks are having or have had had. And we don't know if there's been communication between Kat and his agent and the Knicks. I think I'm sure that they're already reached out. We'll hear more in this. I'm kind of not surprised that it hasn't happened at this point in the summer. I think the interest. Really? Are you? No, I'm not surprised. Oh, yeah, I'm not surprised that it hasn't happened. Yeah, I'm not. I think the interesting thing is, do we start to hear any more chatter about this as we get closer to September as we get closer to training camp? That's the thing for me. And does this get done before the start of season or is this kicked down a year from now? Now, look, last thing I'll say, if it's kicked down a year from now, I don't think that makes Kat and his side happy. Also, if you're the Knicks, you kind of do want to know something you mentioned, which is you kind of want to know what your books are looking like two years from now. So you can then decide what you want to do to give yourself more financial flexibility. But some teams may look at and say, don't commit until we have to, right? It's it's tough, man. It's it's it's it's all tough. But let us know in the comments. What do you think? What do you think the Knicks should do? What would you do if you were Leon Rose? What would you do if you were currently Towns? What kind of extension should the Knicks offer Towns? What kind of extension do you think catches on? Do you guys think maybe there should not be an extension at all? Just time for the Knicks to move on. I'm sure some someone out there probably thinks that's a possibility. Either way, this is the new second April world that we are in in the NBA as the Knicks offseason continues. That's going to do it for this edition of New York. Got game. Don't laugh, Brian. These decisions are hard. Someone I know someone's going to be like, just trade up for Trey Murphy and Herb Jones and something else. I just know it. Like we're going to we're going to get it. We're going to get cat trade machine things, which look, if to be fair, if reports come out that they're far apart, we might break up the trade machine to be like, all right, we got to see. I don't want to just in case, but I'd be surprised if that's that's what it says. Sounds like the future seems very happy. He does. Sounds like a future episode. Possibly. I hope we don't have to do it, but possibly. All right. That's going to do it for this edition of New York. Got game. He's Brian Fonseca. I'm Dexter Henry. We'll catch you next time on another edition of New York. Got game. Peace. And thanks for watching New York. Got game.