What the HOME GARDENER Needs to Know About the GMO Purple Tomato Seeds

Hey you guys, welcome to this week's episode of the Pantry Chat Food for Thought. Today we're going to be talking about something new that's happening in the home gardening world. Now you may have heard rumblings about this, but there are now for pretty much the first time genetically modified seeds being made available to home gardeners. And this is something that has a lot of implications kind of far and wide, more than just the, you know, maybe health implications of, I don't want to be a human guinea pig to find out what GMO organisms might do in my body. So we really need to understand the implications of what this means in the gardening world and what we need to do about it. So today we're going to be speaking with author Bevan Cohen. I'm so excited to have Bevan here again. He's joining us for a second time here on the Pantry Chat and Bevan writes a great book about saving your own seeds at home. And so I really wanted to get him on here and get his perspective. But before I bring Bevan on and introduce you guys to him, I want you to tell you about this week's Pantry Chat sponsor, which is Lehman's. You guys have heard us talk about Lehman's before because Josh and I have used Lehman's products for over 20 years now. We absolutely love them. And one of the fun things about Lehman's is that they have a lot of Amish made products. They really focus on high quality products, products that are made in the United States wherever they can and supporting their local Amish trades peoples and, you know, woodworkers, crafters. And so it's a really a great way to get into the made in the USA and to also get really great products on hand. So if you haven't checked out Lehman's, make sure you do so. Okay, you guys, Bevan Cohen is a writer, a poet, an herbalist, a gardener, a seed saver, and a wanderer. He lives and works at Small House Farm with his wife Heather and his two sons, Elijah and Anakin. And together they live on their family homestead in Michigan where they grow seed crops, herbs, flowers, and keep a small flock of laying hens. If you have not read any of Bevan's books or you haven't seen him before, I really recommend that you check him out. We'll give you some contact information at the end as we talk. So Bevan, hello. Thanks for joining us today. Hey, Carolyn. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be back on the show with you. Yeah. Now I really want to thank you because you kind of jumped on pretty quickly here. We didn't give you a lot of warning on this to talk about this particular topic of these new genetically modified seeds that are being made available to home gardeners. So I'm really excited to have this conversation because I think it's something everybody needs to be aware of. So thanks for kind of the last minute jump on with us here. Oh, absolutely. You know, it's a big topic. And like you said, a lot of people are curious about it. People have a lot of questions. So it's great to be able to sit down and have these types of conversations for sure. Yeah. So before we jump in, we have to do the chitchat because the chitchat is just some of the best parts. But I hear you just got back from a trip to Ireland. That's true. Amazing. It was amazing. It was incredible. We had quite a time. It was just a week. We were only there for a week. So it was we packed a lot of adventures into a short amount of time. But yeah, we brought the whole family out there. And it was it's such a beautiful place. I you know, it was my first time going there and I was going to be beautiful from photos, but I was not prepared for how gorgeous that country is. And the people were so friendly and the food was so good. It was it was an awesome time for sure. Do you have anything if you're like me, whenever you go somewhere or whenever you see something new, I'm like scoping things out, trying to find things that I can take away and bring back like old wisdom that is still being practiced to you. Did you have any takeaways for that or even like a way that you would cook or a new dish that you're going to incorporate into your food? Oh, yeah, for sure. So we love to try to eat the food of the places that we just visited. So we we ate a lot of food while we were there. And we tried to eat all of the traditional Irish foods, depending on where you're at. And one thing that they they specialize in is seafood chowder. And every town has a different recipe for their seafood chowder. So we ate in a course of seven days, maybe 15 different types of chowder. So we're on the chowder kick right now. So we're going to try to make our own here, do our own variation of an Irish classic. What's so important about the food there is that each chowder is different because they specialize in the local ingredients of that town of that area. You know, it's very hyper local. I love that. So we're going to try to do something very similar, make a hyper local Michigan, Irish chowder type of thing. So yeah, that's just so important to start shifting the mindset from this like ubiquitous. We have all the ingredients available to us at the grocery store. And so we can just make the same chowder, you know, where you guys are and where we are and maybe down in Florida and maybe Southern California to like, you know, the flavor should be different that we should have very, you know, diverse foods in these different areas because we can grow very diverse things and things, you know, that grow here aren't going to grow for you. And absolutely the food that I eat here should taste like here, right? Yeah, absolutely. So before we jump into the main topic, I wanted to give you an update on my sunflowers and sunflower oil, because the last time we were talking, we were talking about pressing our own oil at home, which is just such an important topic for people to understand they can do this. And so it's really interesting. There's, you know, always this conversation about seed oils and the health of seed oils. Most of it gets kind of unfairly wrapped up in just the bad practices of unhealthy processing, right? So you have that whole side that is like, but if you have really healthy, let's say our own sunflower oil from home that we press from home, so we know it's super fresh, not rancid, hasn't had all the bleaching and deodorizing and all of these things that are done to these oils that you buy at the store. You know, the question becomes, is it then healthy to consume? And I just wanted to touch base on this really quickly, because I actually just had some lab testing done, which was really interesting, totally based on my omega-3 to omega-6 balance in my body. And as you guys know, the seed oils have a high level of omega-6s. And so a lot of people say, oh, stay away from omega-6s, you know, they're highly inflammatory. But the reality is what we're looking for is a balance, a proper ratio between omega-3s and omega-6s. And so I did find that I am very little bit low in omega-3s, which is pretty reasonable for most people. Most people are actually extremely low in omega-3s, because the pure sources of omega-3s are usually seafood. So, you know, keep eating your chowder, right? Get that chowder in there. So for the time being in our household, we're staying away from using the sunflower as our eating oil, but we are making so many amazing salves and balms with it right now. Oh, yeah. I am having so much fun with sunflowers that I grew in my own yard, and I can press them right when I want to use them and then infusing herbs into them and turning them into these salves and balms. So thanks to your inspiration and your book, we are just really going to town with these completely local, 100% homegrown, homemade salves that we're able to, well, I don't have the beeswax, but I have a local beeswax provider. So very, very local, and it's just really exciting. Oh, that's so cool. I'm so excited to hear that you're really following through with our conversation. That's very, very neat. And I love sunflower oil for topical products. We mostly, most of our sunflower oil, that's what we use it for as well, is for lotions and balms and things. It's wonderful for the skin. We do utilize it a little bit in the kitchen. I think it's important to note, you know, omega-6 is essential for brain function. It is something that you definitely need in your diet, but you're right that it's all about that balance. And most people are consuming far more omega-6 than they are omega-3, and that's the opposite of what we want to have happen here. So either cutting back the omega-6 or increasing your omega-3, that's the solution to find that balance most certainly. But if you're pressing your own oil, regardless of what you're using it for, it is better than anything you're going to purchase. That's a fact. Absolutely. And it tastes so good. It is absolutely delicious. So we're just totally loving it. It's been a really fun experiment for us. That's so cool. Yeah. And it's amazing how easy it is. I know we're going to jump into the main topic here, so sorry to hammer on this one, but it makes me really excited because it's just amazing how easy it is to just press your own oil right before you want to use it. And so it is like so fresh, so completely fresh, and that just always makes me happy. So just a side note before we jump into it, I guess we're going to be at the Modern Homesteading Conference that's coming up in June. And we're actually, I'm bringing an oil press out and we're going to be doing demonstrations right there at the conference. So if any of your listeners are into that sort of thing, and I bet most of them are, that's where we're going to be. They can come see it in action. All right. Well, we'll be there too. So we'll be excited to get to actually shake hands in person and see you do your work. That's going to be a lot of fun. Okay. Let's dive in to the topic of the day. And this is the implications of genetically modified organisms in home gardening seeds. Because up until this point, there's been extremely little limited access for the home gardener, at least on the intentional side, like purchasing seeds, to be able to actually get these seeds into our gardens. But now we have a company who has just introduced genetically modified seeds for the home garden market specifically. So this is like opening up Pandora's box. I don't know that we're ever going to be able to put this one back away and put it back inside the box and get rid of it, because it is here. It's coming, at least. I don't think it's actually out on the market yet. My understanding is nobody has actually been able to purchase the seeds yet, but they are right here at our doorstep. So first of all, let's start back at what is a GMO? Okay. Yeah. We'll start at the very beginning. That's an important thing to cover because I talk to a lot of folks. We do a lot of seed education work here through Small House Farm, and that's a thing that I find there's a lot of misconception around what constitutes a genetically modified organism. And what really is going to separate a GMO from a traditionally bred crop is that a GMO is typically made by utilizing a bacteria to insert genes from either other bacterias, from animals sometimes, or from other plants into the genetic makeup of the plant that we're modifying. So these are things that could not happen in nature on their own. It just won't happen. It's a manmade influence where we take these things and combine them in a way that nature would not be able to do on her own, but we have figured out how to do it. And we've given ourselves a bunch of different reasons why we say it's okay to do it, and we're making them. Now, the opposite of this now, of course, is the traditional plant breeding, which is what people have been doing since the dawn of agriculture, but nature has been doing far before that. And this is when two plants of the same species typically share pollen with each other, bring pollen over here to the pistil, generating our fruits and our seeds. It's something that happens in nature all the time. And that's really the fundamental difference between the two things. So, you know, there's kind of this misnomer going around, and I think it has to do with some PR on the genetically modified side of, you know, genetically modifying things is just really like hybridizing them. It's just kind of next level hybridizing them. And I've heard this multiple times, and I have to say, no, it's not. It's not even close to being like hybridizing. When you're hybridizing to something, you're taking two different species of the, or you're taking two different types of the exact same plant. So let's say we're taking this variety of wheat, variety of wheat A and variety of wheat B, and we're allowing them to cross pollinate. And in very natural means, you're getting another variety of wheat that is like parent A and parent B makes children, right? When we're talking about genetically modifying anything, we're talking essentially about taking wheat and taking a butterfly. That is totally random. This is not a real example. I'm just using it as an example here. And taking the genes from the butterfly and sticking it inside the wheat. This cannot, there's no possible way for this to happen in nature. This is like, God put a stop right on there and said, yeah, this isn't cool. We don't do this. This does not happen in nature at all. And yet we're amazingly doing it in labs. Well, I think you're really hitting the point here is that, so we could dig a little further into the hybridization of things, because this is an argument that I've heard as well, that GMOs are very similar to hybridization. And I think your point illustrates the difference here, but you can think of a plant, let's say peppermint. That's something a lot of us grow in our gardens. That's actually a hybrid of two different species of plants that naturally cross-pollinated with each other to create peppermint. That's a naturally occurring hybrid of two different species that were closely enough related that nature said, all right, you guys can mingle and make a new thing. Nature said that was okay. But with the GMO crops, now the wheat and the butterfly, that's a fictional example, but we could say a tomato and a gene from a snap dragon and put those things together, which could never happen in nature. And that's exactly what Norfolk Plant Sciences did to create this new purple tomato that we're here to talk about. That's something that could never have happened on its own. It was, can we say, interference by man into the natural order of things in a way. Yeah. So why would they do this? Why would you want to take a snap dragon and take genes from a snap dragon and put it into a tomato? That's the million dollar question. So if we were to ask Norfolk Plant Sciences why they wanted to do that, they have an answer for us ready to go. So by doing this, it's an edible snap dragon. So the flower itself that the gene came from is an edible flower that you can eat and it's totally safe to consume. So they've taken the gene from the edible snap dragon, inserted it into the tomato, thus creating this very purple tomato. Now anthocyanin is the antioxidant in nature that creates purple colors. All things in nature that have a purple color to them come from this antioxidant anthocyanin. So what they've done is they've dramatically increased the amount of this antioxidant in the tomato, making it super purple. So we say to them, well, why did you want to do this? Well, anthocyanin is believed to be a healthy antioxidant for you to consume. It's supposed to be good for preventing cancer. There's a whole list of benefits from consuming this antioxidant. So we wanted to make a fruit and by we, Norfolk Plant Science, wanted to make a fruit that was really just loaded with this good antioxidant so people could eat it and be healthy. Another benefit to this tomato that doesn't get as much press is the shelf life of it. It sits on the shelf significantly longer than your homegrown heirloom tomato would. So that's another commercial benefit to this tomato. So if we were to ask them why they wanted to do it, that's the answer that they would give us. Yeah. And that sounds like a great answer, right? Like healthy super tomato. Like sure, that sounds really good. What's wrong with that? Edible snap dragon, edible tomato thrown together and you get super vitamins. And so on the surface, we have kind of this PR side that is says, well, you know, that sounds pretty good. I think I like that idea. Plus let's give it to it. It looks amazing, right? It is a beautiful tomato. It is. And if you're like me, like, you know, put me back in the garden of Eden. I'm like, Eve, I'm like, Ooh, that thing's pretty. Like I am dazzled by the things that are pretty in the garden and I'm always finding new varieties and new colors and stripes and spots and whatever I can. And so it looks good on top of it. So all around from the surface, this looks like a pretty good deal. Another thing that Norfolk tomato is really talking about. And I appreciate their thinking on this. I think it's wrong, but I appreciate it is that genetically modified organisms usually lean really heavily on herbicides. We're talking things like BT corn, where the whole point of it is that you can dump glyphosate onto those cornfields. And the only thing that survives, I'm sorry, Roundup ready corn or I'm mixing up the two different ones. But and the only thing that survives is the corn because it has this genetic modification in it that, you know, allows it to survive these chemicals. But that means you're also consuming it. Norfolk tomato says, Hey, we want to get away from genetically modified, meaning more herbicides and pesticides. So we're creating this tomato that, you know, isn't wrapped up in the whole herbicide and pesticide thing. Instead, we're just going to make it a super tomato that's really, really healthy for you. Well, yeah. And I think we're unpacking a lot right here. There's a lot that we could say about what you just dug into here is when we talk about the health, potential health benefits or dangers of the consumption of genetically modified foods. It's really difficult to say anything about it because that's such a relatively new technology. You know, the first GMO started to come out in the mid 1990s. The flavor saver tomato, right, was the first. And that doesn't even exist anymore. It was discontinued almost immediately. But it's a relatively new technology. So there's been no opportunity to have these long-term health studies on what it means to consume these plants. We don't know because they've only been around for 20 something years. We don't really know what that means. But when we start to discuss the genetically modified crops that have been created to resist herbicide, right. And we can say, okay, look, these crops are having all these chemicals dumped on them. So even if the GMO in and of itself is safe to consume, all of these chemicals you're dumping definitely aren't right. So that's a really easy one to say. Red flags all over the place on this thing, you know, whereas these other technologies where we're creating this food as a health benefit, it's sure it's a good PR thing, but it's also, it makes it a more muddled conversation. And when we want to talk about the health of it, because it's a lot of things that we do not know because it hasn't been around for that long. It's important to note that this tomato was not the first time that something like this has happened. There's the gold rice that was developed at high in beta carotene. And that was actually, it was genetics from varieties of corn that were spliced into the rice to create a high beta carotene rice that was going to, when your body consumes beta carotene, it turns it into vitamin A, which is an essential nutrient that a lot of people are lacking. So the technology was developed under the idea that we could create this beta carotene rice and folks in countries that are malnourished are going to have access to this, right? Well, unfortunately it's never really seen the light of day. They still grow it in test plots in the Philippines, but it's never been commercially available anywhere. Recently, they came out with a pink pineapple, which they've developed. It's a genetically modified pineapple that's high in lycopene, which is another antioxidant, is what gives tomatoes their red color. So they've taken this now and they've created this pink pineapple that you can eat to get this lycopene, apparently. Where it starts to get sticky, in my opinion, is when we think about the consumption of these antioxidants, like this purple tomato. You can say, well, hey, I made this purple tomato. It's going to be really healthy for people to eat. Okay, that's great. But there's already a lot of purple food available for people to eat that's full of anthocyanins, right? We could think about blueberries and blackberries. Most certainly, we could think about purple cabbage or purple carrots are loaded with it. You know what I mean? So these foods already exist with the same levels of anthocyanins that this tomato has, relatively close enough. So why really do we need this new technology? It doesn't quite add up all the way, I don't think. Yeah, I think that's a whole missing part of the discussion that they're not even bringing in. Like, that's great. We have purple tomatoes now, but why not just consume the red tomatoes that we have that have their own antioxidants in it, right? Sure. And go consume something that occurs in nature naturally to get the purple. And so, you know, we get into this discussion about genetically modified foods, and I think you really hit on it. We just really don't have the science data behind. We just don't have the length of time and experience with them. So while, you know, we're not going to get into a, he says, she says, sort of argument about the health of these genetically modified foods or what they do to your body. I know for me, I can say pretty clearly, I don't really want my family to be the guinea pigs. Like, that's just, that's kind of my bottom line. Like, I don't need to be the guinea pig for some new technology and find out 20 years later what that's been doing to us that we can now not reverse. So for me, that's where I kind of draw the line. But I think we need to take this a step further because this actually has even bigger ramifications. And when we're talking at the beginning about this Pandora's box idea of like, we're letting something out of the bag that we may not be able to get back in, this actually has bigger ramifications in the gardening world and in the agriculture world in general. So I really want to jump into that. Let's talk about that for a minute. What could happen with these tomatoes? Well, okay, this is great. I will touch on the point that you just made about guinea pigs real quick. Because human beings are notorious for jumping into things before they really know whether it's good or not. And the first thing I could think of because I'm in my house is lead paint. Sometimes we do things and later we're like, we shouldn't have done that. You know what I mean? So that's just something to think about. Yeah. Yeah. So okay, let's talk about this Pandora's box and what could this possibly mean for folks. And I think that, you know, we could come back and I think what we need to talk about is the seeds and what this means for people like me, people like everybody really, but folks that are actively saving and sharing seeds, this could be a real serious situation. So the Norfolk plant science first released the tomato. It was, well, it had been three generations ago now. So it would have been three growing seasons ago. They shared seeds with select growers around the country to grow these tomatoes out and whatever it was to test them, to try them, to take pictures of them also to increase seed stock because this year they've started selling the seeds. So you'd mentioned at the beginning that we didn't know if these seeds were available yet. They are available right now and people are actively buying them. Yeah. They're very expensive. There's something like more, maybe more than a dollar a seed. Okay. But you know, that's how it works in the seed world anyways, because once they sell these seeds and people buy them and then people have them, then they'll get distributed. You know what I mean? The supply demand thing changes once they start to sell them. So they're trying to get as much money as they can right off the top while they're still the only supplier. Right. So the economics of that, I understand why they're doing that. There's a lot of demand here, but should they be doing it is really the question that I think we need to get into. Now tomatoes are self pollinating most certainly, which is wonderful. But that's not always the case. So we grow seeds here at Small House Farm. We have a small little seed business and we sell a lot of seeds and we sell tomato seeds. All the seeds that we offer are grown right here by us with love. And some of the varieties that we offer are historic. They're old heirlooms. So we definitely put effort into ensuring varietal purity, even though these are self pollinated crops. Sometimes nature's going to happen, right? Nature wants to cross pollinate everything. That's her gig, right? So even with our best effort sometimes to avoid cross pollination happening in my garden, sometimes it does, right? Which means that there's a potential for these genetics from these purple tomatoes to get into my tomatoes. Let's start at the beginning of this. Okay. So there's a seed company that everyone's very familiar with, a large seed company that was offering that at the beginning of this year was going to offer a beautiful purple tomato. And it was on the cover of their catalog. It was a gorgeous purple tomato. Purple Galaxy is what it's called. Beautiful. Wildly similar in appearance to this tomato, right? It's strikingly almost exactly the same one that they'd gotten from a European breeder, right? Who had supposedly been working on breeding this tomato for, well, five generations of gardening, three years, which anybody that's in the plant breeding world knows that that's a very short amount of time to create something and stabilize something. But that's a detail we won't come back to maybe later. But in this short amount of time, this breeder in Europe was able to produce this purple Galaxy tomato, beautiful purple, gorgeous tomato. Well, long story short, and we can unpack the story as we go if you'd like. It turns out that there was some genetic markers in that tomato that were genetically modified. Okay. So this plant breeder, so he's in Europe where GMO crops are banned. So this tomato should not exist in Europe. And he's a plant breeder. So he's actively observing and engaged in the pollination of these tomatoes, right? And somehow still these genetics ended up in his crop. Okay. So bring that home to the home gardener. As careful as I might be, I'm not as careful as he was. As careful as I am, most people aren't as careful, right? The chances of these genetics, now that these are out there in the world, getting into our tomatoes, it exists. It exists, right? And what does that mean for us? Well, it could mean that you accidentally end up with GMO tomatoes that you're growing and eating. And if you choose to not want to do that, you maybe don't have that choice anymore because you wouldn't even know. But I think what it really comes down to is the legal ramifications of it. So the big seed company that pulled the tomato, there was a number of tests that were done first. And when it was being tested in Europe, there's these particular markers that they look for, for genetically modified crops. So these tomato seeds went through the testing and came back, not flagging any of those markers, right? Because they're looking for something that doesn't exist. This technology was new. So they weren't even looking for this. You know what I mean? So it ticked all the boxes. This is good to go. Brought it back to the United States. Norfolk said, this might be our tomato. This might have some genetics from our tomato. Let's test it. Their test came back inconclusive. We don't know for sure. Then a test that came back that said, it may have this same technology, right? So the company pulled the seeds for a couple of reasons. One, they do not support GMOs. They don't want to sell them. There's a chance that it could be there. Get it out of here. We don't want it. But number two, the legal ramifications of selling a patented technology. That's really the thing that we all have to think about the most. Norfolk Plant Science is selling these seeds to people, telling them, encouraging them on their website, grow this tomato out, save your seeds. You can save your own seeds from this. No problem. It doesn't become a problem until you go to sell the seeds, right? Once you sell the seed, now you're selling patented technology. That's not okay, right? What if I end up with that in my seed crop? I sell seeds. What if I end up with that patented technology in my seed crop? You know what I mean? Now, all of a sudden, I'm open for legal ramifications from selling something that I didn't even want in the first place. It's a very slippery slope from here's a healthy food for you to now you're not allowed to operate your business anymore because you've stolen our patented technology, right? So there's a lot we can unpack there. I don't know which direction you want to go with that, but- Yeah. Well, I mean, I think this is really important because this is that slippery slope, just like you're saying. If these seeds start, we start losing control of them, right? Which we know happens as a home gardener. For me, I'm not selling seeds. So my tomato seed saving practice is probably considered sloppy in the... It's a home gardener version. I'm like, yeah, if it crossed a little bit with something, I'm not too worried about it, right? Sure. So I'm just scooping out my seeds and we're saving them and we plant them the next year. And I really have... If there were to be an instance where I was to get a tomato seed that came in and it was genetically modified, it had some of these genetic markers and I didn't know about it, it could very reasonably end up in all of my own tomato seed. Now, again, we can ask all sorts of questions here about what that means and does it matter and all of this. But what happens when all of a sudden Norfolk comes back and says, we own all those tomatoes. We actually own because they are patented. Then this is patented technology. And as soon as they do figure out the lab testing to be able to find the markers, and they will, they are going to find this out because this is how this works. And we've seen this happen in the genetic modification industry. Monsanto is famous for this, right? Going into the farmers and saying, well, you didn't plant genetically modified corn, but it's here now because of over pollination that has blown on the wind. And so now this is our corn. We own this seed. You can no longer save it. You can no longer sell it. And if you do even accidentally, we can take you out legally. There's a famous story of this. So I'm going to jump in with this. In Canada, there was a farmer who was growing corn and patented pollen from corn. Now, corn is wind pollinated, right? So it travels a long ways. There's documented cases of pollen from corn traveling miles, two, three, four. This might have been five miles away, but this pollen got into this guy's field and he had patented genetically modified corn in his field. Monsanto sued him, shut him down, lost the farm, right? Over something that he didn't even, I mean, it was obviously not intentional, but he was in possession of a patented technology that he didn't pay for. He didn't sign the contract for, lost the farm, you know? So I think the importance of that is to understand that the legal precedent for them to go and do that exact same thing exists. And so no longer can we take for granted that, oh, you know, the legal system wouldn't allow that to happen. Nope. It has, it's there. And the precedent is there. This can happen. The question is, how is this going to play out in the home gardener side? And honestly, I don't want to wait to find that out until we have all adulterated tomato crops. Then you make a good point. You know, tomatoes aren't going to cross pollinate across miles of ground, but the problem is, you know, how did the breeder in Europe end up with the seed in the first place? We don't know. We don't know that story, but it got there somehow. And, you know, hopefully he didn't intentionally insert it into his breeding program. Somebody, yeah, apparently he has a long reputation of really good, high quality heirloom breeding. Well, that's just it. Cause this is, he's a standup guy, you know? And so it would, it would have been nefarious of him to try to pass off this tomato as his own or to intentionally do this. So it's, it's incredibly unlikely that that was the case. And yet somehow, even in a country where it's illegal to grow this crop, somehow it ended up there. That's spooky. You know, like I was saying, you know, you, you, well, your seeds, you're, you're a sloppy seed saver and I'm more of a meticulous seed saver, so to speak. Right. But a lot of the old historic seeds that we get, I get from families that, I mean, we travel around, I meet like an old lady and her tomato or whatever, you know, these aren't the most meticulous seed savers either. Right. They're just people growing food and that's all that they're doing and saving their seeds. And so the likelihood of cross-pollination event happening and us not even knowing about it, that's the thing. With the generations of tomatoes that the breeder in France grew, it was five generations over a course of three years. And it wasn't until right towards the end that this purple tomato even popped up. Right. Where he was able to get it and stabilize it apparently very quickly and have it. Right. So where did the GMOs get into? Right. It went into the line. It's impossible to say with the different traits that are in tomatoes, you could be carrying that trait in your tomato and it's not going to express itself physically, even that first season that you grow it. So how do you even know? So coming back to that seed company, I work with these guys a lot. We interact a lot. We've talked a lot about this tomato and what happened. And they also sell corn seed and corn seed is something that is regularly tested. All the corn seed that they offer, they send it all the labs. It's all tested for GMO markers, right? Let's call out the company name because because of this, I will only buy corn seed from them. Because of this exact issue, unless it's my own saved seed, I will only get it from them. And this is, we're talking about Baker's Creek. A lot of you guys probably have already heard this story and seen the rumblings of this going on. And can I just say, I am so thankful that this happened to them because they were watching and they were paying attention and they care so deeply about actually having open pollinated seeds and non-genetically modified seeds that they were willing to kind of state their reputation on pulling this seed and say, hey, we're not going to carry it. We don't want to do it. So just, I just really want to give them the benefit of the doubt because I know when this first happened, I saw so much backlash at them that gosh, they were doing something wrong. And I just say, no, thank you for exposing a major issue because if this hadn't happened, I don't know that most of us would even be aware of the purple tomato, the Norfolk tomato. Oh, you're right. Not only would we not be aware of it, but I don't think we'd be having this conversation about all of the potential ramifications of it because we just watched it play out in real time. We saw what happened. We saw potential litigation. We saw the whole thing. We saw it happen to the largest heirloom seed company in the country, right? And if something like that could happen to them, how are we going to avoid it? Absolutely. You and me out in our field, you know what I mean? It's a scene for sure. So they test their corn every year. All the corn that they offer is tested for the GMO markers to ensure the purity of the seed that they offer. So now the conversation is, is what are we, now do we have to test all of our tomato seeds that we're going to offer, right? What becomes the standard for how we ensure this doesn't get spread? Because it so quickly could. All the other GMO crops that are out there are very heavily regulated, right? I mean, you have to buy a ton of it. It's very expensive. You have to sign paperwork. Only certain people can get it. It is a very regulated industry to the point where that golden rice has almost been bogged down in so much regulation, it hasn't even gone anywhere, right? But all of a Here's this new tomato seed for everybody to have, and it's unprecedented to say the least. And the ramifications of it could be, I mean, it could be nothing. It could be nothing. You know what I mean? There might be enough people not interested in it that it doesn't go anywhere. It could end up like the flavor saver tomato of the nineties. But I don't know. I mean, it's already out there. I know people personally that have had the tomato, that have eaten the You know? It's out there. It's out there. Well, and that's just the thing. Once it's out there, can you ever take it back? Can we ever get it out of the tomato strain, the genetics, now that we have it out there somewhere? It's floating around and that's just it. We don't know. You and I aren't going to take our tomatoes to a lab. I can't even imagine how expensive that would be to figure out the genetic markers in my tomatoes. And then what's next? I I'll tell you what, you start doing some sort of genetic modification that stops squash bugs in it for a home gardener. Ooh, that's going to be mighty attractive. Oh, you just did it. You just said it. Yeah. So in the mid to late 1990s, they released a genetically modified zucchini and there's a genetically modified zucchini, a yellow crook and one of those straight yellow summer squashes. They exist every year. About 25,000 acres of American farmland is dedicated to growing genetically modified zucchini. And it has been since the late 1990s. Many of the zucchinis that you may encounter in your grocery stores are likely genetically modified zucchinis that are grown right here in the United States. And this is a thing that's been boggling my mind, especially since we've been talking about this tomato, is zucchinis are insect pollinated, right? And insects travel an incredible distance. So why isn't there ever been a conversation? I don't recall ever hearing a conversation about anybody concerned about genetically modified zucchini pollen getting into our gardens. Yet it has existed for 20 something years now. Wow. Yeah, that's a great point. I've never heard that either. Yeah, it's a thing. You know, you'll always see like somebody will see a big strawberry and they'll be like, that's a GMO strawberry. It's like, well, no, there's no GMO strawberries. But if you start digging enough, the zucchinis have been around for a while. Now there's a potato. They've recently done this apple. I mean, they got these pink pineapples. It's getting spooky quick, right? But they've been doing it for longer than we even realized. You know, the zucchini, it's a disease resistance is what they've put into these zucchinis, which has been huge for commercial growers already. And we all know how difficult growing a zucchini could be sometimes. You know what I mean? Yeah, that already exists. It's already out there. So that being said, we could already be exposed to that pollen in our gardens. That could already have made its way through the whole system and none of us would even have known about until somebody decides to start testing, you know, and where does the point come that they come to your garden as a seed saver and seller and start going, hey, I want to test your zucchinis. Let's see what you've been selling for the last so many years. It's like, how do you defend yourself from that? Yeah, I've been selling them. I just didn't know, you know, that does not stand up anymore in court. And so, you know, it begs the question, like, what do you do about that? Is that the end? Once they start prosecuting at that level and the home gardeners are the small seed savers, then is that the end of pretty much any seed saving right there? Well, I would like to say that the people in charge or whatever have better things to do than to mess with home gardeners. But I would like to say that. I don't know if it's true necessarily. And for me, this is the crux of the whole issue, because we don't, again, understand the health ramifications of GMO. There hasn't been enough time to study it. They could be absolutely harmless. It's a fact, you know. It's a potential fact that they could be harmless. We don't know. We don't know. But I do know that when somebody can patent a seed or the genetics in the seed and claim ownership of something that every person should have access to, all people should have access to seeds. Nobody should be able to own life in that way. That's when we've, that's the issue for me. That's really where I feel that this is a dangerous scenario that we're finding ourselves in. And now that it's been released into the public, it could become like an issue unlike ever before. You know, we've been up to this point, easily been able to avoid those seeds. Or maybe not the zucchini pollen, we don't really know. Or maybe some stray corn pollen every once in a while. But we've been kind of aware of that, and we've been able to have precautions. But this is something unlike ever before. And it's a dangerous place to be when somebody else can try to claim ownership of our seeds. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's such an important and valuable point. You know, so many generations of people, when we're struggling financially, have been able to go back and depend on growing their own food, right? And saving your seeds from one year to the next, so that you know you've got food next year too. It's such a beautiful system. And it's a system that is there for us. If we have access to a little bit of soil, we can grow our own food, and we can save the seeds, and we can do it again next year for free. I mean, that's just gorgeous. But this is kind of, you know, makes you go, is that the end? Will this be the end of that system, and now we all have to pay for every seed that we want to grow? You know, hopefully not. Hopefully not. Hopefully it lays down, but. Let's say this. Sometimes I say maybe it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission, right? I feel people have been saving seeds for literally thousands of years, right? And it is our right to continue to have and save seeds, regardless of what's happening. So I think that instead of looking at this moment in time as the potential edge of the cliff, so to speak, where, oh, it's a disaster coming our way. What if we look at it instead as an incredible opportunity, right? If all of us take time to be aware, to learn about these things happening, and then to really buckle down into saving our seeds ourselves and sharing them intimately with our communities, that's the most powerful thing that we can do, right? We don't need necessarily to keep buying seeds anywhere. Now, I sell seeds, so that's a backwards thing for me to say. But ultimately, if I could put myself out of business, that would be fantastic, right? People should be saving their own seeds, and now more than ever. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's so good to turn it around to what can we do right now? Save our own seeds. Support your local seed growers, your small local seed growers. You guys, we don't have many in this country because we're not supporting them. We all love the seed catalogs, the big flashy ones that come to us every January, February, right when you're in the middle of the doldrums of winter. I love them too. I look through all of them. But there are small seed producers springing up all over the place who are very passionate about what they do. Please, please, please, if you have to seeds, go find them and support them. I mean, start giving gifts of seeds to all your friends. Go buy extra seeds and give them and start being the seed fairy and sprinkling them around. Same thing with your own home-saved seeds. But also, it's so important to start talking about this. We need to talk and we need to be sharing. We need to say, I don't want this. This is not okay. Here are the problems with it and start having this conversation in our community so that people become aware. I've even heard of counties who have now started setting up no GMO counties and started putting their own lines. That's not going to help the cross-pollination across county lines. Of course, the pollen doesn't stop at the county lines, but it does start to create a precedent and starts to vote with your dollar and saying, we don't want this. We're not interested. Please take this away and protect us from it. I think that's just super important to just start talking about it and do what you can where you can. Absolutely. There are very few places on this planet that are as relaxed with GMOs as they are in the United States. That's just because the people got together and said, no, thank you. We would rather not have that. That's all we have to do. Have these conversations, make our voices heard. No, thank you. We do not need it. We've got our own and ours is better. Absolutely. Again, always voting with your dollar. Stop buying the crops that are genetically modified and in the grocery store. Don't buy the zucchini from the grocery store. Unless you can get it organic, at least that's not supposed to be genetically modified. Obviously, we're talking about the need for some testing there in the genetics because it may be unintentionally, but at least you're not actually purchasing the item and paying money for something that is known to be genetically modified in most cases. Start voting with your dollar and just say, just not going to do it. I'm not okay with this. You got it. At the end of the day, all these businesses, all they're trying to do is make a buck. That's what business is for. If you're not buying it, they'll stop selling it. Simple as that. Absolutely. Bevan, thank you so much for coming back on. I think this was such an important conversation and I want to keep talking about it, but thank you for getting it started here. Where can people find you if they do want to check out the seeds that you're selling and some of the other things? You don't just sell seeds. You guys have all sorts of interesting things going on over there, including your books. We do lots of things, plenty of seeds for certain. We've got vegetables and flowers and herbs and all sorts of stuff and our herbal products and our books. The one that's going to relate most to today's conversation is a book I wrote called Saving Our Seeds. It's all about saving seeds. Walks you through 43 different species on how to grow and process and harvest and share those seeds with your friends. You can find all of that stuff on our website, which is smallhousefarm.com. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. It's been great hanging out with you. I am looking forward to getting to seeing you at the Modern Homesteading Conference this June. I think it's June 27th and 28th. Does that sound right? I think it is. I'm excited to meet you in person finally. Thank you so much for having me on to have this really important conversation. I'm really glad that we had a chance to do this. Yeah, this is wonderful. Thank you and thank you guys for hanging out. Get the word out there and start planning to save some of your own seeds this year if you haven't already. Just start with a few things and get your feet wet. Start saving some seeds. You're going to be amazed. It's actually in a lot of cases really quite simple. If you don't know where to start, check out Bevan's book because he's going to walk you through every single step of it. All these things now that put up pop-ups and thumbs ups and all on the screen. So you guys, it's been great hanging out with you. We'll see you soon. Goodbye. Thanks so much.