Andy Burnham RIPPED APART over No.10 in the North plan - 'There's more to the North than Manchester'

The Prime Minister, actually, is going to host his first meeting at Number 10 North today, that's in Manchester, as part of his plan to shift power away from Westminster. Well, up to 300 civil servants will work regularly from the site alongside ministers including Lucy Powell and Louise Haig, who is overseeing the operation. Elsewhere, the PM has paused the early prisoner release scheme, which was due to start in September, pending an urgent review. Well, under the plans, up to 6,000 inmates across England and Wales, including killers, rapists and sex offenders, would have been released early and then monitored with electric tags. Let's talk to our national reporter, Will Godley, who's here mourning Will. So Number 10 North is finally underway, what's it going to achieve? Well, I think that's the question everybody's asking. There's no big black door, there's no Larry the Cat, it's just an unassuming building up in Manchester, about 10 minutes walk away from Andy Burnham's old office, when he was mayor of Greater Manchester. So if anybody's not going to be feeling homesick there, it will be him. Now, he says this is part of his drive to achieve growth in every postcode and get the decision-making outside of the Westminster bubble. In a statement today, starting launching Number 10 North, he said the Whitehall resistance to devolution is over for good. I mean, he's only going to be working there one day a week, but other ministers are set to be working there on a more full-time basis. The likes of Louise Hay, Angela Rayner and Lucy Powell as well, all saying they're going to be working there, championing this new site. But critics, as you say, firstly criticising Andy Burnham for only going to Manchester, people saying there's more to the North than just Manchester and more to outside of London, outside of Westminster than just Manchester. That was something he was asked about yesterday when he visited Essex. He was asked by reporters whether or not that they were forgetting the likes of the East of England and South West England as well. He was saying that, in fact, he wasn't. They'll be able to achieve the similar goals that all communities face outside of London and champion their goals. But on the side of the cost, this is going to cost a huge amount of money to set up a Number 10 North outside London in a small amount of time and also to get the civil servants up there because they're saying goodbye to their London waiting salaries. That's between £3,000 and £5,000 for them. So they are, we understand, being compensated for that. And so a huge amount of money being sent up there. Now, Burnham's official spokesperson says it won't cost taxpayers any more money than it already costs to have Number 10. But will it achieve the aims that Andy Burnham wants? Well, he says Number 10 North will change by putting more power into every postcode across the entire country. And he says it will be a situation room for making Britain better. The place we use to get power out of Westminster into the hands of people at a local level so they can turn things around. So perhaps it means working more with mayors, city councils, passing on and delegating responsibility that perhaps would have been something Westminster once dealt with, now going into the hands of people at a more local level. Well, elsewhere, Andy Burnham seems to have averted his first crisis, hasn't he? He's hit pause on the controversial early prison release scheme. But there's trouble brewing, isn't there? Because there's officials saying, well, if an alternative isn't found by November, we're going to run out of space. What do you think is going to happen here? Because we've got reform saying let's build Nightingale prisons, just like we saw in Covid with the Nightingale hospitals. Do you think he'll consider that? Well, there are lots of ideas being banded around. Of course, this scheme was brought in in the first place to deal with prison overcrowding and to deal with this prospect that they were going to run out of prison spaces very, very quickly. It was first brought in under Shabana Mahmood when she was justice secretary. And earlier this week, the Conservatives were saying, why don't we deport foreign criminals to free up spaces rather than release other criminals early? So lots of ideas being banded around on this. And of course, the pressure really landed at Andy Burnham's doorstep because of PC Harper's family, their emotional response to receiving a letter from the MOJ saying two of his killers would be under this scheme to be released early at the halfway point rather than the two thirds point. His mother was reacting to the news last night that this scheme was going to be put on pause. She said it's a good start and it's really a good basis to begin working on some sensible alternatives and looking at other options going forward. She said it doesn't just affect them, it affects other people. It's something incredibly personal to them. But as you say, Ellie, they clearly don't think this is a long term solution. Desperate for... A virtual private network is an app that hides your IP address and helps keep your data private. When you're browsing the internet at home, you give up a large amount of data to businesses, to shops and indeed to social media giants too. 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Also, there's a 30-day money back guarantee too. Visit piavpn.com forward slash gbnews to start protecting yourself digitally today. We're talking to the government now, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for the Cabinet Office, Sally Jamieson joins us now. Good to see you this morning, Miss Jamieson. Can we start by talking about Number 10 North? What is it going to achieve? Well, I think Number 10 North is a really exciting opportunity because what it is there to do is devolve power from Whitehall and from London and get it out there, not just to the North actually, but to regions and nations across the country and make sure that power and money is delivered to communities everywhere. Whether that's where I am in my constituents today in Doncaster or in Durham or in Brighton, it's about making sure that individual postcodes, regional mayors and local authorities have the power to deliver the best services and get the best value for money for their people. What I don't understand though is this idea of moving everything away from the Westminster bubble, but you're just shifting the Westminster bubble up to Manchester. Well, it's not about moving everything out of London, it's about moving certain elements of government outside of London so it best serves people across the country. And it's about sending that signal out there that actually the civil service jobs, ministers, everyone is accessible outside of London. And so I think it's a really important milestone. Andy Burnham himself has shown in Manchester that actually when you give power and when you give the money and devolve it to local areas and to mayors and to local authorities, you can actually deliver something incredible, far more incredible actually than if all that power is centralised in London. But on that basis, what does Number 10 North, what is the benefit of Number 10 North in Manchester to someone living in Scarborough? Well, I think it's about sending that message out there actually that not all the decisions are made in London and people who are in Manchester or working in Manchester or in the towns around it have a very different life experience and understanding to those people that live in London. So it's about making sure actually that people can see there's areas outside of the capital where money and power is devolved to which they can benefit from. And how much is all of this going to cost, Sally? Because we're looking at relocation packages, aren't we, for what, 300 civil servants? Well, I mean, we already have, I think, around 80,000 civil servants that work across the country and all the set-up costs for Number 10 North will come out of existing Cabinet Office budgets. So it won't be an additional burden on the taxpayer but it's about reallocating those resources so that the power and the money is actually outside of London. But it's interesting, Ellie earlier on was looking at positions available to civil service for Number 10 North. I mean, the vast majority of them seem to be social media producers and things of that ilk. I mean, how is, you'd understand there needs to be some element of that in 2026 but, you know, it was adding up to hundreds of thousands of pounds available for jobs in this sort of thing. Shouldn't we be spending money a bit more wisely on stuff that's a bit more practical and really helping people out? Well, look, I think that there'll be all kinds of jobs in Number 10 North and this is just basically day one and actually there'll be recruitment of civil servants or relocation of civil servants to make sure that this works and to make sure that all different departments are represented in Number 10 North. What people might not know about you is you used to be a prison officer, didn't you? So can we please talk about this controversial prison's early release scheme which Andy Burnham has now hit pause on thanks in large part to the intervention of PC Harper's widow yesterday. But we've got this warning out this morning which you might be able to relate to based on your previous experience. Officials warning that prisons in England and Wales are going to run out of space by November unless another measure is found. What's going to happen here? What is going to be put in place instead of the early release scheme that will stop prisons being overcrowded and essentially the whole justice system collapsing? Yeah I mean I think that the Prime Minister has asked for an urgent review to take place of the scheme and that's going to happen in the coming days and weeks and I wouldn't want to preempt what the outcome of that is going to be but it's absolutely right that actually the feelings of victims and actually of the general public is taken into account with any decisions made around this. It's also important that we do understand the grave danger of having overcrowded prisons. These aren't easy decisions or easy choices but we categorically cannot go back to where we were in the summer of 2024 where we had less than 100 bed spaces left in the adult male estate. That isn't good for public safety or public confidence. It's not good for those prison officers and indeed other prison staff who are working in the estate. Fundamentally it's terrible for the criminal justice system as well because the public need confidence that there are prison places there for those who need them. Forgive me but I was going to say the public need confidence as well don't they that people who were sent to prison stay in prison. I mean admittedly this is what has alarmed the Prime Minister and he's putting a pause on this but we can't get back to an idea where someone is sentenced for a crime and only serves 30% of that sentence and it does seem ridiculous. Well sentencing has changed a lot over the last sort of 20 years and sentence lengths have generally increased and the problem that we faced is that capacity did not increase alongside it. So what we've done is embarked on the biggest prison building programme since the Victorian era. We're going to have 14,000 new places by 2031. We've already built 3,000 new places since we came into office. So part of it is a capacity issue and we're working at pace to deliver on that but that alone will not solve the prison crisis and I think it's really important to be clear on that and that's why it is important that we yes review this and make sure that the right decisions are being made and that victims feel that justice is being served while simultaneously recognising that we need a prison system and a criminal justice system that is not continually on the point of collapse. And what I would also say is that as part of the changes, the second third of that sentence will be served on tag. We've invested £800 million in probation accommodation so that there is intensive supervision for people that come out and release far more than what they had previously to make sure that the public can have confidence that people will be kept a close eye on and if they break their licence conditions in any way, they will be recalled to prison. All right, just briefly on that, just to clarify, so what is happening with probation? I know from work I do outside of here, probation is absolutely stretched to the maximum. I mean people on probation are not seeing their probation officer on a monthly basis, never mind a weekly basis at the moment. Yeah, probation has absolutely been stretched to maximum. I could see that when I was working in the prison system as well. So we've invested a huge amount of money into probation accommodation and we've also invested more money on probation officer recruitment. Now, none of these things are quick overnight fixes but it's fundamentally important that we do these things to lay the groundwork for a stronger criminal justice system, not just today and tomorrow, not just sticking faster fixes but making sure we've got the foundations fixed for the future so that the public and those working inside the criminal justice system can have confidence that it is working properly, that the spaces are there and available for the nodes that need them and actually prisons can function in a way that is both punishment for those that have committed crime because that's really important but secondly also that there can be rehabilitation so that we reduce crime and reduce re-offending going forward. Okay, Sally Jamieson, I'm afraid we're out of time with you this morning but thank you very much for joining us. Thank you very much indeed, thank you. Morning. 6.43, Claire, let's start with the Guardian, should we? Looking at sort of number 10 north and regional mayors and all this. I've got to be honest, I don't understand what's happening. They're moving to a little sort of office block. In Manchester there is going to be the sort of subsection of number 10 north which is going to house apparently sort of transport, housing and regional mayors and everybody's going to collaborate and growth is going to be great. It's so performative, I can't even start to think why this is going to work. It isn't, let's put that out there. But he's sending people like Lou Haig, Lucy Powell, Angela Rayner and you do wonder if this is the equivalent of the naughty step. Well, yeah, I was about to say the commentary online and reaction to this has been are you sending the naughty ones away? Hang on, they've all got Manchester seats. That's the reason you're actually doing it. And you keep them away from Westminster, you keep them away from actual sort of... Yeah, but if you're going to have a number 10 north, I've got some doubts about number 10 north too but if you're going to have a number 10 north, surely it makes sense to have from your cabinet people who are local people. Yeah, but what if you didn't have... What if there's a reshuffle and your people are not from the north? Well... Do they still get sent to the north? Well, I mean, the answer is I don't know in a situation like that but surely there are enough northern Labour MPs who would likely go into cabinet to be able to replace them should they be replaced. You've just got this lot in place now. But it's an over-representation of the north-west in the cabinet at the moment anyway. I mean, you look at how heavily weighted that is, apparently for a prime minister for all of the country, he's not done a particularly good job of picking people from other parts of the country to make these decisions. He's put heavily into the north-west those MPs in cabinet and you think, well... Nothing wrong with that, Claire. I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with it but you can't then tell me that you're going to make sensible decisions for places like the south-west and the south-east when you've got people so far... And which Labour cabinet minister would you get from the south-east out of interest? Well, there is... No, but the people still need to be represented. No, I agree with that. And there are MPs, there are Labour MPs in the south-east. There is one in the neighbouring constituency to us, Dr Lauren Sullivan for Gravesham, who is extremely good, I hasten to add. I know she's a different party but I actually really like her. Very capable. But people like that are not being considered. You're looking mainly at anybody that has worked with Andy Burnham either previously or heavily involved with his mayoralty. Those people have been taken in. So let's see how that goes. But I'm not suggesting for one second that the south-east is going to get any kind of representation from number 10 north. They're going to look at the south-east and say, do you know what, we're not interested. Well, no, I mean, I'd expect that we'd be looked after by number 10 south. I don't even think we'll be looked after by that. And where's the power going to lie as well? Because if normally you say number 10 is requesting something, so that is what is the diktat of the day. Number 10 wants it. And people are going to say, well, which number 10 are you talking about? Where's it coming from? Is this A or B? I'd be very interested to know how much money is being spent on these relocation packages for 300 civil servants who currently have London waiting for their salaries of three to 5,000 pounds. It will need to be an incentive, won't it, for them to move to Manchester? And they are actually recruiting quite a lot of people, again, locally. I mean, people who work for Manchester local government, they're going into number 10 north. And as an idea, I'm not against it. I mean, the only question is, can you maintain it? If you remember, Keir Starmer talked about he'd pack up work at six o'clock on a Friday and that never happened. And the idea of Andy Burnham being able to spend one day a week at least in number 10 north, what happens if there's an emergency, a Cobra meeting, something like that? Do you ship all your military chiefs and top spooks all the way up to Manchester? Do they join on Zoom? Well, exactly. Do you have a Zoom Cobra? It doesn't seem quite right somehow. Well, I'm not dead set against it. I just don't quite understand what it's meant to achieve. I mean, this idea of getting out of the Westminster bubble sounds great. But if you are, in effect, just shipping the Westminster bubble up north, what's the difference? No, I mean, it looks as if it is meant to be different. I mean, he's talking about a new National Economic Council, which is actually described as an economic Cobra, something that Gordon Brown had after the financial crash. Now, if you're doing that and you're bringing in all your regional mayors, and so it's all part of the devolution agenda to try and get power down to the people who should actually be using it, if that works, this could be a success. But not every area has a regional mayor. I just want to point that out. Quite a lot of the south, central south and southwest doesn't yet. So how are we going to be represented? You seem to be sort of fighting a rearguard action on behalf of the south of England. The independent public. It's the point, isn't it, that some people won't feel represented by this government. They will feel like there's an over-focus, if you like, on Manchester. Also worth saying that this cabinet is the most Oxbridge-educated cabinet of the modern era. Really? 17 of the 28 ministers appointed by Burnham either went to Oxford or Cambridge. So that's quite interesting as well. Well, yeah, but if you look at some Tory cabinets, the really sort of elite cabinets, I don't think people going to Oxford and Cambridge is a bad thing. Don't we want the cleverest people running government? The clever people only go to Oxford. No, not only go to Oxford and Cambridge, but you expect the people who have been there to be fairly bright. No, I'm sure other universities are fine too, but if you look at the kind of elitism of Boris Johnson and David Cameron, both of them had four old Etonians within their cabinet. Nigel, after that, I don't think you can complain about elitism, honestly. I'm shocked at you. Nigel, let's stay with you though. We'll give you another chance. Oh, thanks very much. Thanks.