Alan Permane: Lawson, Lindblad & Leading Racing Bulls | F1 Beyond The Grid Podcast

What kind of a driver what kind of a man walked through the door At suzuka last year, so he didn't really say much about it to start with honestly You're you're right. His head was down and he won't thank me for saying this. I think at the time he was Everything's fine, but you could tell we obviously knew him from the from the year before we could tell he Certainly wasn't the same guy And I want to say we rebuilt him because that's a little bit dramatic, you know, we're there to help him, but he He made a turnaround when I mention arvid's name to you What's the first thing that comes to mind? He's really pushy Do you know what but that's great Welcome everybody to this week's f1 beyond the grid. I am Delighted to say we're joined by racing bulls team principal alan permain alan Great to see you. It's been six years since you were last on the show. I think it was in uh, Covid times wasn't it? Yeah in istanbul. I seem to vaguely remember and and and chatting for Two or three hours and we could have gone longer. Yes. It was it was good fun. Good fun Well, it's great to have you back on the show and um It's 12 months. We're speaking at spa francorchamps 12 months on from your first race as tp Of of rb. Um, I just wanted to start by asking you how how you reflect on the last 12 months So is a big step? um, and I think i've said before i've certainly said to you it's not something i'd Imagined doing it's not something i'd uh had ambitions to do but It's something i'm loving honestly. I've i've I've i'm thoroughly enjoying it. There's bits of it that I enjoy more than than other bits of it, but um, i'm also very conscious of the fact that there's 11 team principals and and it's a privilege it's it's an honor and I need to try and enjoy it as well, you know, even even when the bits that are not quite so much fun Let's say i'm trying to make the make the most of that as well. You say you weren't expecting it Can you just take us back to the moment in terms of how was the job offered to you? Uh, it wasn't so much offered as as uh, we need you to do this and uh You are doing this. It wasn't quite like that either but um It was we we need we need your help Uh, this has happened and and uh, Laurent is moving up To rebel racing and we'd like you to step up to this and and I must admit And I think i've sold this story. I've certainly said it to others. It wasn't it wouldn't have been my first choice of things and and uh Why why because you you know me i'm not one for the limelight. I'm absolutely Shy away from it as as in my previous roles as much as possible and and Certainly, there's that's one aspect of this job That's been the most maybe not the most challenging but it's been challenging is is stuff like this. Um, doing press conferences Talking a lot with media talking a lot with sponsors and and not to play it down I don't want to say that's not difficult, but it's not something that comes naturally and and it's something that I Put a lot of effort into I have to I feel I have to prepare well, um Just make sure i'm on top of things like that, you know standing up in front of 800 people who who work for us to talk to them That's something that a year ago put the absolute fear of god into me and now and now Well, everyone said and I was quite open with it when I got the job And I don't say I love it but but also uh, it certainly doesn't it it's not uh, it's not something that consumes My you know my a week before and doesn't consume my every thought anymore And and I like to think i'm doing a a decent job of it at the end of the day. I'm trying to give people what they want to hear I don't want anyone to come to a A meeting of all you know of everyone all our staff and feel that oh my god We gotta go and listen to him again sort of thing. I want to I want to give I want to try and impart some some knowledge That maybe from the track what we've done a little bit more of an insight Or what's coming in the future and people to want to to come to that because otherwise what's the what's the point? You've done so many senior roles In formula one just what extra pressures are on you now That weren't on you before there's uh I I think that the financial side of it is Is much more you playing with I I try to see this as a as an extension of what i've done before So most of my career has been about finding performance So whether you're a race engineer or a chief race engineer or even sporting director, which is which is the big roles i've i've done in in those roles your you've got um Let's say some aerodynamics or you've got some suspension set up or you're always trying to find performance and and trade-offs and things like that I'm trying to use that experience in in this team principal role To do the same it's about finding performance And again, it's a very simple thing to say We only really care about two things. We care about going fast and we care about not stopping So performance and reliability and those two are intrinsically linked as well without Reliability you can't have performance. So so i'm now using some different building blocks instead of roll bars and front wing angles, it's It's people and money if you like and and making sure that we're spending What we have wisely in in the right areas and making sure people have Firstly that they're happy in their roles and and we have a nice working environment But also they've got what they need to do the job They want to do i'm not going to go and tell the Head of aerodynamics how to do his job But I just need to be there to support him and make sure that he's got everything he needs To do his role and that's how I see it and i'm guessing as well as all of that. You're getting insight into Bigger picture formula one as well in in the role as tp How has the job changed your perspective on on formula one as a whole? That's an interesting question. I don't I don't know. Really. I don't think i'm not sure it has. Yes, I now I now go to an f1 commission meeting, which is which is all the other team principals, but i've sat in the and that's a that's a very grown-up version of a Of the sporting committee that I sat on for many many years. Um So it's a it's a it's of course a much higher level and and at the moment i'm very much at a listening listening stage rather than jumping in with With with what you know Me campaigning for the way that formal I think formal on should be whereas I guess when I was in that sporting I was far more vocal and trying to drive that that sporting group, um Being one of the more senior members in it. Let's say And now i'm certainly one of the junior members in the in the f1 commission group. So i'm much more in a Listening to 90 of it and maybe talking 10 instead of the other way around, right? Take us into one of those commission meetings, right which of your peers Impresses you Uh that come on tc. I can't that's that's not fair There's there's there's lots. They're they're they're all impressive in in in in some ways or another, you know, when you look at the The big guys the totos freds flavios. Those are the guys who are who are Who are driving that that sort of thing and they're the guys with the the biggest Investment in you know with big teams and and uh engine suppliers, but of course laurant as well and and They're all in in their way everyone Of course, everyone brings something to that group and there's something to learn from from everyone alan You've got 30 years plus in formula one behind you, right? Is there any advice you'd give your younger self knowing where your career is now or or as it has it all been useful? Yeah, my career has all been useful to come into this point as we said before I didn't know it was coming to this point, um And there's things I would have done differently in in the past I think um But to change anything. No, I don't look back any of it and think oh what i've done You shouldn't do that or you shouldn't do this. I mean i've ended up as tim principal. Hey, it's it's It's it's it's gone pretty well. It's gone better than I could have I could have imagined so i'm not sure there's There's certainly not that maybe there's little specific things. I would have done differently. But as as a trajectory, it's uh, It's it's very nice. I have to say that and i'm sure you want to touch on it the the leaving alpine and going to to rate or not really leaving alpine, but Moving on from alpine shall we say and going to racing balls was a was a defining moment, of course and without that Uh, I probably wouldn't be where I am now And let's talk about that because that was another spa moment for you as well your last race for alpine 2023 right here. I mean I remember being shocked Known you for years. Um How tough was it for you very? Why why so? Because that was my life, you know, okay I've got of course i've got more life than that I've got a life away from the away from the track, but i'd been at alpine for 34 years You know, I started there when I was just I just turned 22. I'd done an apprenticeship And that was my job after I finished my apprenticeship. I went I went to work there I went to work at bennerton and the team went from bennerton to renault to lotus To renault to alpine and i'd been there and it it came it completely came out of the blue. Um So yeah, I was I was devastated really and it was it was hard. It was a hard Certainly it was it was uh, it certainly spoiled the summer break that yeah, that's that's for sure. Did did you think about? Just walking away from formula one completely and getting involved in Another arena no, honestly, I was very fortunate. Um to to my phone rang that day a couple of times, you know people saying straight away what the hell's going on and let's have a chat and let's have a catch-up and um Christian christian horner was very gracious. I think in the press conference at spa He spoke very nicely about me which was which was nice and he and he then came and spoke to me on the grid and said give me a Call when all the dust has settled give me a call. Um So christian was pivotal in you coming to I don't know because I also spoke with laurent Who was also had also been confirmed as as team principal for for uh, alfatorre as it as it was at the time But I spoke to a few other Places and I had I had I had some I was very fortunate to have some some options So no, I didn't ever consider anything outside of formula one. I don't think I could do anything outside of formula one I love what I do. I really enjoy being in this environment and the competitiveness Of it. I absolutely love you did have a bit of time out. Um, any new hobbies in that time? No, I remember my wife saying to me what the hell what are you gonna do with yourself for for you know, she was working um we were in the uk and I remember it was the I think it was the very first day of the cricket world cup and I said look at the tv Look, this is day one of 45. So i'm good for the next 45 days She said you cannot sit and watch Cricket for for 45 days. I think I did a little bit. I said look i'm just gonna I need to just Do nothing for a little bit and and and reset as I say we had a we had a bit of a miserable Miserable summer holiday that year and bless her. She's been great. She's a massive support. So without her Just doing the team principal role as well. She's been she's she's there behind me and and helping me and supporting me in that Uh, what else did I do? Um It's life once you've been institutionalized by formula one Which all people who've been here for a long time in a way have been is life outside f1 A little scary. I don't know. I've not really been outside it. So i've i've had those five months but within uh within Two, I knew what I was doing. Uh, and within certainly within three months It was all signed and and sealed for me coming to come into racing ball So there was a month definitely where it was unpleasant. Um, and I didn't really Know what I was doing. Um and just changing Jobs, you know, I hadn't started a new job this is my so my my job when I went to alpha tori as as or Racing balls and as as racing director was the second job. No third. There's third job. I'd ever had ever so so That was scary. That was daunting going somewhere new walking through the doors to a new a new place for the very first time but again it's it's it's made a little bit easier because it's formula one as soon as you walk I walked in I remember walking through the Doors of the the it was vista. We had a we we had a Sort of aero facility in in vista at the time and straight away You see three or four faces, you know people you've worked with in the past people from the pit lane So that makes it a little bit easier. 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Since you've had the keys effectively with your experience over over the last year or so I don't know really we I've had to make we have made some changes and I have had to make some changes they've been a little bit forced we we Uh lost very early on in my in my team principal tenure We lost one of our very senior technical people. So I had a little bit of a reshuffle in in that area um and that's when we brought in dan fallows to be Technical director whereas before we had two Deputy technical directors if you like reporting to tim now we just have dan as technical director reporting to tim and that I think has been a Certainly is working. Well, whether it's better or worse I I don't know but things are very working very well in that area and when I when I speak to the the uh Chief aerodynamicist who's a super super guy. He's he seems very happy in how things are he's he's happy in the way that the team runs certainly his Team runs or he's able to run his team. So I I try and let the people run their run their team and and when people Come like that come to me or I give you another example. We had a we had a change in the in the Right in the top of hr, which which reports to me and and the girl who's now, uh Hr director at the time said oh, what do you want me to how do you want me to do things? How do you want and I said I have no idea. I know nothing about hr But it's more what do you need from me? So you you're the expert you you you do that But if there's something you need For me or something more you need in your department come to me and then let's let's talk about it. So i'm definitely not a A micromanager shall we say and and i'm very happy to admit that my life has been at the track and that's That's what I know. So there are lots of new things i'm learning But I don't feel I need to learn Honestly, I don't feel that's a good use of my time to to know about every department that reports to me to know the ins And outs of that at all So so i'm much happier let people run it and and me support them where where they need it And how would you describe the atmosphere inside the team? How does it compare to alpine for example, how how different is it? So alpine is a is a tricky one because the last few years were were a bit tough. Um, certainly it was a fantastic Place and i'm sure it's it's getting back there under steve Now, but the last few years were a bit tough there. I think we have a great atmosphere You know, you you certainly feel it when you go in on a monday morning after a good result The whole place is is lifted and is buzzing and uh, I spend a little bit of time in in milton keynes But most of my time I spend in in faenza in italy and uh, I try and uh, I try and it's it's a big it's a big place, you know, we're we're Sort of touted as a small team, but it's it's a it's a big place. There's 600 people there something like that so I try and uh at least once a month get around and have a wander around everywhere and say hello to people and And that sort of thing rather than being stuck in a Stuck in my office if you like, um So it's it's it's good. It feels good there alan. It's it's amazing how it's changed. I first went to the team in 1998 when it was minardi and it was it really was just a couple of small little buildings and now It is as you say, it's it's a bona fide Big formula one thing. Yeah, and we just started another big construction project there to expand um expand production, uh to to with the aim to to be able to make Every single part that we're capable of making to make in-house So so what do I mean by that? So we can't make fuel cell We can't make a radiator and and no teams are doing that sort of thing, but everything else we We want to make ourselves and and that's that's uh, that's an efficiency. That's a that's a that's That enables you to make parts faster. It enables you to make parts cheaper. It's a cost cap efficiency. It's it's a sign the team is Is still growing, uh, and and we're i'm incredibly grateful for the for the support from austria That to enable us to do that sort of thing and that's one of the things that I certainly didn't appreciate uh I I appreciate it a bit when I was racing director, but being team principal you really appreciate the support from red bull austria What is the brief from red bull austria? Because of course When it became torosso back in I think 2005 It was very much about developing young drivers even young engineering talent as well And it still is that is still the yeah. Absolutely. It absolutely is At some level. Is that a frustration to you? Um, no because I know that's the brief, you know, if you told me I could have max and fernando Of course But I can't you know, and I know that I know no world exclusive Exactly It's not a frustration. It's absolutely not and and there's definitely a satisfaction in in in bringing on young drivers, uh, there's certainly one of the one of the Very few nice things about getting older is is giving experience and help to to young engineers and and certainly i'm trying to do that with with with drivers as well and I I Hope and I think we're having some success in that area What do you make of I think it was zach brown who? was quite vocal a few races back about One entity owning two formula one teams I think he was referencing toto wolf trying to buy the minority stake in alpine Of course red bull has these two teams has had these two teams for more than 20 years What's your take on on zach's comments? Well, you won't be surprised to hear that. I don't agree with zach funnily enough. Um Look, I think zach is doing what zach? Should be doing which is fighting The fight on all fronts he's fighting on the track. He's fighting off the track and and he's not fighting us Of course, he's fighting with with red bull there that we're not we're in our current with our current performance We're not a threat to mclaren. We're we're we're away off them, especially in the race. You see it There's a there's a very healthy gap, but I think he's doing He's he's doing what he can to just unsettle things and make things a little bit unstable I think I think it would have been I think the way he went about it wasn't particularly Nice writing an open letter instead of coming I've been super happy if he'd have picked the phone up and we have a chat that he wrote this open letter that had several inaccuracies in it saying that our staff are leaving with Minimal or no notice periods and that's just not true. It's it's it's absolutely not true He specifically talks about a guy and and it's who I talked about earlier this this we had this deputy technical director And he's gone to to red bull racing and said oh this all happened within a couple of months It's not true at all. I knew about that in september last year That that he's he was he wanted to leave and he wanted to go to rebel racing and and I specifically Didn't let him leave until I think it was april time. Um, and and then he had to serve three months gardening leave as well, which is in fi regulations so so any any teams that have a Uh a relationship. It's very it's very clearly governed in the regulations what you have to do and we we followed that So so there's inaccuracies there, but I also see it from from zach's Point of view. I see what he's I see what he's doing. He's just put into a little bit of mess, you know No offense taken but and I but I see why he's why he's doing it But but honestly to to be on this side of it And see the steps we go to to to make sure that we are operating fairly and and within the rules so to operate within the rules and what we take from red bull is uh, I don't want to say it's a burden because that's not quite the right word But we put a lot of effort into making sure that we are respecting the regulations And and more so than I would have done in a previous team. You don't have to worry about that side of things I mean how different is your relationship say to hasses with ferrari are there Similarities there. I mean, I guess so because I think they take and I don't actually know what has his relationship, right? But ours is is very much a customer Supplier relationship. So we take rebels front suspension. We take rebels rear suspension. We take rebels gearbox uh, and and on the car that's that's about the limit of it and there are a few other bits and bobs the steering wheel and I think the steering rack but whatever's allowed in that sounds very similar to us actually in that transferable component part of the technical regulations We're we're taking now. We also share a wind tunnel with them. Um, But again that is You know in a perfect world if we had a magic one, we'd have our own wind tunnel Of course, you know, you'd both have a state-of-the-art wind tunnel. Um, But but we don't and and there are certain Good reasons to do that in in terms of financial reasons. You don't want to build two 100 million plus facilities But it's it's definitely a lot of effort a huge amount of effort goes in to making sure that the those two teams are kept separately During wind tunnel running absolutely and that is brings an additional burden as I say And that is the bit that is based in milton keynes. It's just yeah aero No, not quite anymore. It started off as as just an aero, uh aero design But now we have it's it's aerodynamicists. It's our model shop is there but we also have some some full-size Car design there. We have some race engineers there. We have some strategists there and I think that's We got two sites and we're trying to to use the advantages any potential advantages of that So if someone particularly wants to work in the uk, they can if someone particularly wants to work in italy, they can And and that we're using to our You know, we're trying to use that to our advantage where we can we like to think we're location-free, but it's not quite location-free. It's It's italy or england. All that hard work is paying off this year 2026 has been going really well at the time of this chat four consecutive double points finishes A man who's done so much Racing in his life as you have what pleases you the most about the performances this year. Oh so much, you know, uh, just Having competitive sunday saturdays and sundays, of course is magnificent. It's just it's what we it's what we come here to do um Me and james allison always used to have a we always used to laugh back in the day when we're working together We used to say how's the how's the lump of carbon titanium and rubber treating you because it's your mood is governed by that car At the track and it's tragic to say it But but it really is and and i'm very conscious of the fact that we've had four fantastic races There would be a point I guess when we don't get both cars in the points And we just and that's will be part of my role is to keep everyone Boyd and and and and uh, and keep their heads up and that sort of thing We can't catch those top four at the moment. They're they're a bit too. They're a bit too far away You know, I think mclaren were the closest car to us at silverson and they're in the race They're nearly a second lap quicker than us so so to talk about mercedes and ferrari they're even a even a bit further away, but if we can move ourselves a bit away from the uh, from from the audi's and the alpines and and and just have a Boring races that that would suit me very well. You raise a good point about the top four teams, right? How far away are you from being a top four team? You talk about lap time, but just in terms of infrastructure and facilities you you've won world championships back in the day, right? Yeah, but it's a very different, you know, that was you know, that was 20 years ago So it's it's moved on a lot from there. I think And I don't know I haven't worked I haven't worked at McLaren, I haven't worked at red bull racing or ferrari Mercedes, you know, but but we are operating at at cost cap. So we have the same kind of budget as people but I think what what those guys have done over the year over many many years of Of of being far better funded than the other teams is is their systems their tools um That just enables them to extract more from from what they have from so so from a fixed um Assets if you like they can they can extract more from it And and I also think without being unkind to any one we have because we have an incredible incredibly talented group of people The the top teams like the top Football teams they attract the best Players the best people that well, well the best Of the best are naturally going to gravitate to those Top teams and i'm very proud of what we're doing here in in In in producing the car we're producing it's with I don't want to say without the top talent because that's that's wrong that does a disservice to the people we have because we have Some some incredible people but we also have some some juniors that are coming through and showing Showing their talent and and growing that side of it and you talked about drivers and engineers and and and and are we are we Just a junior team. Well, we're not but it's certainly part of our it's certainly part of what we do Can we talk drivers then? Um What one question i've always wondered about you guys is why don't you just put max in it for a test? Just to see Are you not tempted or is it what does he what I don't know just what he makes of it? What he thinks of the car would that achieve anything? No, it would just to fuel you guys and your press your press speculation And and it would just be a massive distraction. So, uh, there's There's never been any talk or hint or anything like that. We know where we are. We we we know we we've We know the drivers we've got we we know the car we've got and we're just trying to make steps Uh every week every time the car goes on the track not just every weekend every run We're trying to improve that and and and do a better job and and I think we can see so far this year We're doing that. We we if we look at the the metrics that we record each race we've improved the car since melbourne and if we measure ourselves against the quickest cars, we are Certainly in both quali pace and race pace and race pace has been a big focus of us of the last few races We're we're making we're making improvements and we're certainly you know If you go back to barcelona, we had a very quick car in barcelona We we got into q3 super easy both our cars In fact, I think we ran one set in q1 and against a lot of teams around two or three sets We were fine. We got trounced in the race. Um Alpine were much quicker than us in the race. So we had a little Think about things we we bought some new parts to austria and and really made a big jump in austria and that carried through to silverstone and and some of that is some Some new parts that gave us some more downforce But some of that is a little bit of a philosophy in setting the car up as well Uh, some of it is driving style that we we spend a lot of time with the drivers Um, so we've we've certainly improved over the last couple of races our race pace This episode is sponsored by car gurus Buying a car is one of those decisions where you always end up wondering if you're making the right choice Don't you is it actually a good price? Has it been looked after am I missing something important looking back? I wish I'd known about car gurus when I was last looking for a car because rather than having to figure it all out Yourself and second guess what you're looking at car gurus puts all the important information in one place So you can make a much more informed decision It's the only site in the uk that shows a deal rating on every car from great deal to overpriced So you can quickly see whether a car is fairly priced based on its condition mileage and features and it's not just the price You can also see vehicle history price changes and verified dealer reviews up front So there are fewer surprises later on with hundreds of thousands of cars available from top rated dealers Plus alerts for price drops and new listings car gurus is designed to put you in the driver's seat So you can buy your next car with confidence join the millions who have already found their best deal Go to cargurus.co.uk for complete vehicle details without any surprises That's cargurus c-a-r-g-u-r-u-s dot co dot uk cargurus.co.uk Car gurus search buy sorted Let's talk about the two race drivers, right liam. First of all i'd love to ask you What kind of a driver what kind of a man walked through the door? At suzuka last year, right? He'd been through the ring hadn't he he'd had a tough couple of races just What what sort of condition was he in so he didn't really say much about it to start with honestly You're right. His head was down and he won't thank me for saying this because he I think at the time he was Everything's fine But you could tell we obviously knew him from the from the year before we could tell he was he certainly wasn't the same guy and I don't want to say we rebuilt him because that's a little bit dramatic but we just supported and and and helped him where he could um and and He works incredibly hard and he works incredibly well with his with his engineering team and and he He did it. He he, you know, we're there to help him, but he He made a turnaround he he um Worked hard in the simulator. He worked hard off track and and on track And and I think we saw that Culminating with some some really really good performances Could you with all of your experience of working with great drivers world champions? Could you say anything to him that that helped him? So what I said to him last year? was forget anything outside of this You know, especially after we confirmed him for For 2026 I said you you this is this is this is there's nothing That should be more important than this. Don't worry about This flight or that flight or this hotel or you want to go here? I said forget all that and just focus on this And you can see that with him this year. He's definitely done that. He's he's uh, he's super he's Say he's laser focused because it's a bit of a cliche, but but he but he is and i'm really pleased that that is is You can see that in in in his driving Honestly, he's he's much more uh Aware of the car. He's he's much more he works. I think he works better and closer with his with his engineers He he knows what he wants from the car He's able to drive it in in a way to get the best out of the car And it's something i've often said about people talk about Driving style and this driver has a particular style or that driver has a particular son I think the very best drivers they don't have a style. I don't think fernando has a driving style I don't think max has a driving style. I think they just drive the car however, it needs to be driven to go quickest and I think you very much saw that with max in the In these previous eras that with the ground effects and you had to have a car with a massively stiff rear end To get the best out of it and and other drivers couldn't necessarily cope with that. Um I think liam is doing a little bit of that this year. He's he's he's figuring out how to drive these cars As quick as you know, what's the best way to get everything out of this car? And he's doing that and I think he's able to do that because he's just concentrating on On driving and he's not worrying too much About the outside world when it comes to the outside world right and social media and all these kind of things more of a sort of philosophical question, I suppose but do you think The formula one environment is particularly harsh now for a young driver to come into because there's so much noise Way more than 20 years ago, right? How tough is it but I guess they grow up with that and they're and they're part of it, aren't they? They're part of that social media That's what they that's what they're used to. I know liam has as he says he's not down the head. He doesn't he doesn't He doesn't look at instagram. He doesn't look at any of that any of that stuff He doesn't I don't know. I don't I don't look at any of it myself I I so so I don't know but I guess that's part of the distraction just focus on what's in front of you what you can change what you can affect um and he's doing that you make the point about being laser focus, but I I remember was it austria last year where you guys introduced something on the car and I remember you being very happy actually I bumped into you in the paddock and you were like This has worked what what happened that week? So it was a front suspension geometry that liam and his race engineers have been working on in the simulator And I have to say i'm really super happy to prove wrong because they said this is two tenths in the sim Clear two tenths every time we change it. He goes two tenths faster I said fantastic. Let's put it on but I said honestly It's unlikely to be maybe I wouldn't go as far as saying forget the two tenths I said it's unlikely to be two tenths because It's uh, it's a feel thing for the driver, you know But it was And he loved it He absolutely loved it and and and uh, and that definitely I don't say it was a turning point of his season But but I think it was a nice thing that that he then felt the trust of us as well It's something that he wanted we said, okay You you've found this in the sim. Let's do it. Let's put it on the car and it worked and and I think that was a that was that was a night and that that That just was another step in his in his development. It was another step in his his trust of us As well, I think he's got a new teammate this year in in arvid arvid lindblad. Um When I mention arvid's name to you, what's the first thing that comes to mind? He's really pushy Do you know what but that's great What do you mean by that? Well, he just wants He wants to do everything he wants everything Which is how a driver should be and and it's and and and i've said that to him I said it's great. You've got to keep that you've got to keep You know pushing the engineers. You've got to find the right balance. You don't want to be too much but Driving people and and you've also got I think in the first few races, he's he's It's just in all areas. He's he's he's trying to get He's he's trying to he's trying to understand everything He's trying to get the maximum out of everything and I think I said to him You need to pick your battles. You need to you need to figure out what what is Because you can't You know, you you you absolutely can't be in control of the whole thing So you need to find out where is the right areas to do? But but he's certainly a guy who's not shy. He's not he's not scared to be demanding, but I think that's good I think we want that we want that and he's bright, isn't he? We had him on the show earlier But I think you have to be now you you you have to be there's so much going on you you you have to That's part of being a four-in-one driver. These days is intelligence For sure, and do you think the 26 regs lend themselves to that even more? I don't know. There's a lot going on but then there's always a lot going on and the drivers have have always had You know, we I remember we used to talk about sebastian and and and how He had such capacity I remember people saying from from red bull saying to me this guy He can drive a lap flat out and and still talk calmly on the radio and adjust switches. So I think it's always Certainly in the let's say the modern era. It's it's always there's always been lots to do and lots to think of Maybe there is more more. So now I think that they have a lot to think about. Um, Uh in terms of when when when they're not doing a quick lap So so in if you're doing a multiple sequence of multiple qualifying laps when you're doing that slow lap there's lots of things to do and think about and getting your tires in the right shape getting your You know your battery in the right levels and and and switches and and that sort of stuff So I think there's it's certainly not less this year Put it that way but about I wouldn't I wouldn't say they're still trying to go all they're trying to do is still Bring as much performance out of it as they can and how much potential? Has avid got? You've seen so many drivers, you know, you work with isaac last year and i'm gonna be being very complimentary about him Is is is avid in the same bracket? Yeah, I think so. Uh, I think it's early to it's early We've what where are we now? This is we're right. He's done nine races. So so it's it's it's it's difficult you know, I don't want to do him a disservice and I don't want to create a headline where you know permain doesn't think limblad has the the you know doesn't have it but I think he has every indication He he does he certainly has the pace and that's the thing we want, isn't it? We want we want all the other stuff. We want him to be good at feedback. We want him to be good with the Media, we want him to be great with sponsors We want all that sort of stuff But at the end of the day what we want more than anything is is is pace pacing quality over single lap and race pace and and and All the indications are that he has that and and i'm sure that's only going to improve Well, and let's go back to melbourne right that that point's finished and what was he p3 on the opening lap Did any of that surprise you or did you from the moment you first drove the car? Did you see that potential? I think we've seen it. So he's he'd driven our car uh in a couple of uh Tpcs as we call them testing of previous cars last year He'd driven the red bull I think on two two occasions on friday and been And been very quick. So I don't think we were I don't think we had any question over his over his Pace honestly and and the winter testing had gone well This year it was it. I think it was a good year to come in as a rookie I know we talked about being a complete new formula, but but we had tripled the amount of testing so instead of one and a half days He got four and a half days, which is which which I think really helps as a as a rookie coming in So no, no, I wasn't I wasn't surprised at Any of that honestly and do they complement each other well liam and arvid? Yeah, absolutely They do they work well, they work well together on on that on and on. Well, let's not say on track. Maybe Alan that's a beautiful I wanted to ask about so Are we going to see the competition ramping up? You know what we saw in austria There was that one at silverstone as well wasn't there? That they are sort of fighting over the same bit of tarmac a lot of the time. Absolutely Yeah, and all the conversations after races like that Difficult awkward. No, not at all. Absolutely not at all. Uh, and and I think Austria was was a little bit unfortunate where where arvid honestly didn't Didn't listen to what we we said. Um, and and and I think It was an unfair situation on liam and I think if we if you look at that race We we were and I talked before about being in a boring Midfield position where we don't have a challenge from behind, but we can't challenge in front We were a little bit like that. We were liam was Uh in front of arvid arvid was in front of bortoletto And we had enough of a gap that we just sat there and waited for bortoletto to pit And then as soon as we he pitted we pitted arvid Because we knew we had enough gap that bortoletto couldn't undercut him And we knew then we could pit liam because liam had enough of a gap that arvid couldn't undercut him Of course the three cars came out very close together and that's when arvid did his move which Which was a bit unfortunate honestly, but all we did is we swapped from under the next pit stop So so it wasn't it wasn't too bad. I don't we had we had some words after the race But I think it's a healthy situation to be in there pushing each other. Um, Silverstone was it was a completely different situation to austria austria we had and and I think everyone was at a similar Situation it's very hard track on brakes. It's very hard track on tires We we got ourselves into that those two point scoring positions and we didn't want to jeopardize That we didn't want to run the you know, inevitably if your two cars are fighting there They're they're slowing each other down. They're using their brakes more than they need to they're using their tires more than they need to and We had we had an audi not very far away. Silverstone was a different situation and we we'd gone into the silverstone race Saying look We're going to need a little bit of management on the medium tires and we've said 10 laps, let's do 10 laps of management. Let's see how things are if everything's good after that I said go race each other. No problem do it nicely and do it fairly and I don't want to see you touching or Getting penalties or anything like that, but I want you guys to be able to race and that's what we did spa this weekend You've got a new cooling package on one of the cars And the other one's going to get the upgrade in in hungary next week How do you decide when you've got two hungry young drivers? Who gets what who gets the new kit? Is it rock paper scissors? How do you work it out? It's not quite like that. So first of all, it's very unusual for us to not bring. Um Enough kit for two of them. Um, and and you're right we have a so we have we have three things here this weekend Um, we've got a new front brake duct And we've got a new rear wing That's on both cars and then we have a new cooling pack new bodywork and roll hoop entry and we just We we we just couldn't do that to both cars. It just physically wasn't time to do it to both cars So I sat down the three of us sat down um I think it was austria. Actually, maybe maybe I think it was saturday after qualifying in austria and I said to them look this is a situation We've got a very decent upgrade coming to um spa But we can only put it on one car So there are a few options we can do we could either delay it and you both have it in Budapest how seriously did you consider that not not at all? What just out of interest why not because you want to bring your performance as soon as you can That's the ultimate fair way to do it Then everyone has it but you miss out on a race and there's no way we would have done that so that was a bit of a and both of them said We're not doing that. Are we and I said no, of course, we're not doing that. I said we can flip a coin I said or we can make it a little bit more interesting and say whoever's in front and silverson in qualifying Gets the upgrade And I think if you say in the race, there's too many variables in the race. So we said And they both agreed. So so it's a it's it's a it's a let's say it's a light-hearted way. I didn't have a preference um Who got it? Um, so avid has it here in in uh in spa because he he was in front In in qualifying in silverson and liam will have it next week, but it's only a it's it's a small part of the upgrade So liam still has a upgrade here. I love hearing you talk about drivers and I guess It leads me on to the sort of helmet marco role, right helmet is no longer involved in the young driver program are you Getting more involved. Are you looking at who's coming through? And sort of thinking about future seasons who you're going to put in. Yes, absolutely Um, I I wouldn't say I was deeply involved in it and rocky looks after that and and does it, you know That's guillaume rocky. Yes. Yes. Vettel's old engineer. Yeah, exactly And he's been part of the red bull family for for a long time and he and he does an amazing job of that I so is rocky going to kart races and all sorts Is is that kind of how I don't I don't know? Honestly what what he's what I don't know. I'm not certainly not that far in it But I certainly look watch f3 and f2 every every weekend and we're very lucky to have an extreme talent in in f2 at the moment Um in in uh, nicolas soloff is doing a is doing an amazing job I think now he's leading the championship, but you can see after a couple of Unfortunate races at the start of the year when things didn't go his way now things have clicked and he had the pace before But he didn't he got punted off or he had a failure in qualifying or something like that But now things are going well He's uh, I think last week in silvers and he won both he won the reverse and the feature race. So, uh And that's gonna give you a headache. Yeah, of course, and that's a lovely that's a lovely headache to have but it's not one I'm thinking about or we're thinking about at the moment. I think we've we're focused on We're absolutely focused on on what we're doing here. Um, Uh, and and and the time will come to think about drivers for for the next season alan, it has been such a treat to catch up with you again, and It looks like you're all set for for p5 What are your thoughts on that no my thoughts and and this is what I say to It's very dangerous to set to have targets like that But target I say and when I do this thing when I stand up in front of people that i've told you i'm not super comfortable Doing but getting better at it. I think is let's just target doing everything perfectly and that's enough of a target You know, that's and again To ask 800 people to operate at their perfect level is already asking a huge amount But if we do that, then the results will look after themselves so let's do that and and let's not worry about the The position in in the championship we can worry about that later in the year But you know, you don't you don't change anything you you're doing you don't say Are we gonna be p5 right? Let's all work a bit harder. Everyone's working But does it change? Strategy in terms of when you Switch to 20 2027 Possibly we're in a tight battle with with two two other teams for the minute Um, okay Audi haven't been out of you have a quick car, but they certainly haven't capitalized on it and we have a very healthy Point to lead on them, but without penis it's it's massively close. So I think we just need to keep doing what we're doing and and uh Again, we're still full steam ahead on uh on this car Well, and you keep doing what you're doing you do not how do you keep yourself motivated after you clearly still Love oh my god. I love yeah, of course more than ever right? I think this is season 38 so Yes, of course. I do. I absolutely love it. I I I was And and and I I realize it's a massive privilege, you know I was so excited to come here this weekend And and that to to be excited to come and do your job I realized that is Is is a is a is a hugely privileged position to be in because because lots of people don't have that So i'm very very lucky to be able to have that. I feel like i'm sad opposite lewis hamilton lewis Is is is saying very similar things he with every year that passes he's realizing more and more how privileged he is to keep doing This oh, let's talk about longevity quickly with drivers. You've worked with fernando when you look at his current situation Obviously it hurts. It must be incredibly tough for him because I know what Absolute fierce competitor he is and for fernando to keep getting up and still he will be giving a hundred percent every week I'm, i'm very sure so Yeah, it's it's impressive to see that he does that I work so I like work with him last Was it 21 or 22? I can't remember in in alpin and honestly, I didn't see any if anything. He's just he's just better That he was better in 21 22 when he was winning than when he was winning world titles. Yeah, I think so I I think there's a certainly hadn't lost any speed or it didn't look to me like he'd lost any any speed certainly in races he was honestly devastatingly quick he he would just It's like he didn't lose any pace from from qualifying at all He could churn out lap after lap after lap and I think that's one of his real strengths I've always said one of the strengths with fernando firstly. He doesn't have a driving style. I don't think and that's my opinion I've not even spoken to him about that, but i've seen him change Change his driving style to suit to whatever the car Needs but I think his other strength is is when he's when he gets comfortable with a set of engineers There's a real trust there and and he'll come in after a session he'll debrief and then he'll disappear And he'll let the engineers do their job do their work And then come back again before the start of the next session say, okay What what have we changed this this and this okay, and then he goes out and drives it So there's a real lovely trust between him and engineers and I imagine Like I say it's been a few years since I worked with him But that's how he was doing it in those in those couple of years when he was when he was at alpine He was he was operating like that, which is which is impressive. I think let's hope the car comes for him At least to see fernando back towards the front, right? Yeah, let's not let's not do much for that We'd take a little bit of pleasure out of his misery as well. Come on Is he still the benchmark of all the drivers you've worked with? You know reikon and some people like that is fernando still still the one I think so Yeah, I think certainly on the engineering side. I was very fortunate to work with michael in early early in my career I was much more on a on a on a on the team side Then I was looking after electronics on on his car back in in those Two champions in 94 95 season that and again talk about privilege, you know What a privilege to to do that to be able to say you've won a two world championships with with michael schumacher As part of that there's a small part but nevertheless a part of that team but I think on the once i'd moved into the engineering side fernando is uh, He's a pretty complete driver, yeah alan, well look thank you Very much for your time. It's been great to catch up. Can we do this in less than six years? I think we'll have to if you want to catch me again Let's see, all right great stuff. Thank you and good luck for the rest of the year. Thanks mate. Cheers